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BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: SharonA Date: 26 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM There's a new thread for continuation of this discussion. Please, let's use it! Click here to go to Part 2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Art Thieme Date: 26 Sep 02 - 09:16 AM One thing this forum and this discussion shows me quite vividly is that, for me and those close to me, we will be much better off if we keep to ourselves.----And, also, it's best not to be caught on surveilance gear of any kind since the information collected WILL BE used by the media for ratings, by bureaucrats and special interest defamation groups to justify the existence of their jobs prove and promote their narrow agendas and views of the world. It is in my interst to invent a stealth garment any way I can so that those I love can stay effectively underground and under the radar. Alas, the crime of Mrs. Toogood was to act out emotionally in a way that blew the centuries old cover of her group. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:59 AM Dear Friends... My travel plans are now set, I am part of a legal team being consulted on the rights aspect of this case, and will have things to say when I return. There was a lot of hurry up and stand by in getting our travel arrainged, but Friday I am off to the mid west. I have been doing a number of interviews and have been asked to do an interview on the Fox cable network. Garg, as you know I never was one of those terribly outraged by you, when in the past you were less descrete, even in your wry comments about me, which, frankly I enjoy a good laugh at myself... I knew there was a good heart in a lot of your synical observations. You make me very happy to have known the good in you was there. That web site you link is great. Most folks want to promote Traveller culture, use their music and exclude the people themselves. Great link and thanks. Where would we be if we judged the Bush family culture by the acts of a few members, including the young Mr. Bush, who has certainly been a heavy drinker and hell raiser, and if you use the same standard applied to Travellers, the drug use by his daughter proves his drug use, and more, proves that all the Bush family use and tollerate drugs. That would be a silly statement, but it is the logic used against Travellers and Roma. Cheers to all, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:36 AM To pull this into line with the forum's intent http://www.travellersrest.org/Travellers.htm has midi music associated with the travelers....it also has interesting information.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:52 AM The Roma/Traveler Community appears to be moving into "DAMAGE CONTROL" and the Web is one of their resources.
Practically all major institutions - schools, army, police, penitentiaries, media, welfare agencies - ate permeated by institutional racism, whose favorite victims are the members of minority groups, especially the Roma people. They are subjected to various forms of discrimination, ranging from routine bureaucratic neglect and humiliations to overt violation of basic human rights. This only exacerbates the dire lot of the Roma population, which appears to be the worst affected by the economic crisis and the consequent collapse of the safety net and is now the most undereducated, pauperized and marginalized group in Bulgaria. Many Roma abide isolated neighborhoods with desperate living conditions, who quickly turn into segregated ghettos, with enormous concentration of poverty, unemployment, violent crime, drug abuse, child abuse, juvenile prostitution, etc., and "Roma" becomes increasingly synonymous with underclass.
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:35 AM Among the earliest childhood memories of many Europeans is this: mother and father were telling us that if we were not good children, the old Gypsy would come to take us away. Why were they lying?! They had got the story wrong! The opposite is true, mother. It is not that the Gypsies steal children; it is that Gypsy children are stolen and put away inside some blurry, chilling bad dream that has lasted ever since.
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:27 AM The gypsies of Eastern Europe are acknowledged by InterPol as being in child prostitution rings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:41 PM This thread is a wee bit too long for people to open it - and clearly there are people with stuff to say still. So here is Part 2. And it'd be better if they posted there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:33 PM Ouch! The news outlets love doing that stuff because it's good for ratings, and Fox is way up the list of biased reporting. And they call that "journalism." I'm appalled... but not surprised. Fortunately, it seems like the local authorities are behaving responsively -- they're under a microscope right now, and maybe being more cautious than normal, but I think that's understandable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: SharonA Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:22 PM Áine: Yup, that's what I meant when I said (as you quoted me saying) that the media's focus on that aspect of the news story is just another example of the milking of a story. Your example is quite obviously one of sensationalism in the media. The "On the Record" program found some guy whose point of view about the Travelers is extreme, and put him on the air so he could say something extreme. Long before the Toogood news story broke, I'd seen several features on TV about the Travelers on the prime-time news programs (the "20/20" genre), claiming to give viewers a look inside the life of the clans. None of them painted an entirely positive or entirely negative picture. But this story has brought the negative aspects to the fore, for the time being. I'm sure that, with time, the pendulum will swing back toward center, but some pressure on the media to find some Travelers who aren't con artists or underage wives wouldn't hurt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: SharonA Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM P.S. – Larry (InOBU) says, "The tape... does not show a beating, it shows a repeted slapping..." Frankly, Larry, I'm distressed that you don't see this as a sign that the child may be "seriously mistreated" as a matter of routine, or even as a good reason for authorities to investigate to make sure that the child isn't being seriously mistreated as a matter of routine. Let's face it: the child was struck over and over again – Toogood admits knocking Martha on her forehead in addition to slapping her, shaking her and pulling her hair – and the fact that the mother made sure she struck her child in such a way that no bruises would show does not change the fact that the child was struck over and over again. That's what battery, the charge against Toogood, means! That amount of repetition of striking a child crosses the line from punishment to abuse. Another sign that this abuse may be a routine part of Martha's life is Toogood's description of her daughter to the media as being hyperactive and as being the sibling who always picks fights with her brothers; this behavior can indicate that a child is being abused and has no healthy outlet for the anger and aggression caused by that abuse. Still another clue is that the videotape shows clearly that Toogood looked around the parking lot on both sides of her car before she began to strike Martha, which would indicate premeditation rather than a flare-up of temper. She also made sure that Martha was in the car, hidden from plain view of passersby, before she began to strike Martha. It all looked too much as if Toogood knew what she was doing. I don't think it's unreasonable of the authorities to separate the child from her mother until it can be determined that this sort of incident hasn't happened before and, most importantly, that it will not happen again. Larry also says "The doctors, not me, said this was not an abused child, nor did she show any signs of past abuse." It's my understanding that a medical doctor examined Martha and did not find any physical signs of past abuse. Remember that Toogood first fled Indiana after her sister was arrested four days after the battery, and took Martha to Maryland and then to New Jersey before visiting a doctor there – she did not take Martha to that doctor the day after the battery, as Larry claims – so, if there were any bruises, they'd have had plenty of time to heal before a doctor examined her. The very fact that Toogood traveled from the Midwest US to the East Coast before seeing a doctor speaks to a grievous disregard for the child's physical wellbeing. I have not read or heard that Martha has had any sort of psychological evaluation at this point to determine whether her mother has also abused her in ways that would not be detected in a medical examination. I have heard, however, that this is not Toogood's first run-in with the law. She had outstanding warrants for her arrest for failing to pay a $202 traffic ticket and for failing to appear in court in Fort Worth to face charges of theft of $50-$500; interestingly, the arrest for theft had been made in a Kohl's department store – the same chain as the Indiana store where she'd tried to return merchandise and had been refused just before abusing her child. Had she been attempting another theft, this time by deception? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:39 PM Amen, Sad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Sad Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:15 PM "the tape, and I have seen the tape played over and over, does not show a beating, it shows a repeted slapping," I think it may be time for a few of us to leave this thread before we get very angry. The defense of this woman on the stated grounds above is disgusting. Sad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Áine Date: 25 Sep 02 - 02:42 PM I think that the news media's focus on Travelers as a human-interest aspect of the news story is just another example of the milking of a story by the media after the event (in this case, Toogood's beating and disappearance) is over. Falling for the media's tricks is, IMO, sensationalizing the sensationalism. FYI -- here's an example of how one national TV news channel is treating the ". . . Travelers as a human-interest aspect of the news story . . .": ----------------------------------- Who Are the 'Irish Travelers?' This is a partial transcript from On the Record with Greta Van Susteren, September 24, 2002. Wednesday, September 25, 2002 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64041,00.html GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Back now with more on Madelyne Toogood. The woman who has gained so much notoriety in recent days is part of a secretive nomadic group called Irish Travelers. Who are they? Joining us from South Bend, Indiana, journalist Don Wright who has been investigating the Irish Travelers for 24 years -- he's the author of Scam: Inside America's Con Artist Clans and St. Joseph County Chief Deputy Prosecutor Ellen Corcella. Welcome to both of you. Ellen, first to you. What is she formally charged with? ELLEN CORCELLA, PROSECUTOR: She's formally charged with battery on a child, which is a D felony here in St. Joseph County. VAN SUSTEREN: What does it mean? Is that a -- I mean, a single strike can -- because most people think that she's charged with child abuse and she's going home and beating up the kid every single day and that that's what she's doing. Is -- one single hit can be battery? CORCELLA: Yes, under the definition of Indiana law, rude and insolent touching that leads to physical injury, whether it's once, is battery, yes. VAN SUSTEREN: How is -- how do you differ that from, let's say, something like spanking? I mean, that's -- that's technically a battery, too, when you whack a kid. CORCELLA: Yes, but I guess we could argue that here -- or try to find the difference, and I'm not sure this is a case to make that distinction because what we clearly see on the video goes so far beyond spanking that it's probably not the case to worry about we're overstepping the parental rights of people who have children. VAN SUSTEREN: Ellen, do you intend -- or does your office intend to talk to Martha -- and I presume in a very sort of gentle way -- to sort of find out from her what's going on in the family home? CORCELLA: We intend to investigate all leads and all people who have information about this. What is the typical procedure here in St. Joseph County is we have something known as the Casey Center. It's a child advocacy center with interviewers who have been trained forensically to talk with children, and I do believe they've already met with Madelyne once, and we will let them do the interview. It's done sort of where prosecutors and other entrusted parties can monitor the interview and even talk to the interviewee, but we let the forensic trained interviewers meet with the child one on one. And I'm sure that may be done again in this case. VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Don, to you. Travelers. We've heard so much about it. Who are the Travelers? What are they? DON WRIGHT, "SCAM" AUTHOR: Well, these people are Irish Travelers. They are descended from the Irish Tinkers who came to this country about 150 years ago. They are full-time, lifetime con artists. They are con artists from the time they're old enough to know what con games are, and so... VAN SUSTEREN: Does that mean -- let me ask you -- are all people who are Travelers in your mind con artists and then maybe even criminals, or can you have people who are in Travelers who are a lawful people in your mind? WRIGHT: I have never heard of an Irish Traveler who was not a con artist. They say that only a small percentage of them are con artists or criminals, but my belief is that all of them are. VAN SUSTEREN: Can you become a -- can I -- can you become a Traveler? Can I become a Traveler tonight if I want to? WRIGHT: The only way you could become a Traveler is to marry into the Irish Travelers, and that happens so rarely that it's almost impossible. You have to be born into the clan. You have to be a -- you have to be a Traveler. VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have any idea of how many Travelers there are here in the United States? Because I remember I studied in Ireland, and there were lots. At that time, they were called Tinkers. About -- how many here in the United States? WRIGHT: There are between 12,000 and 20,000, depending on which estimates you accept. About -- somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000 of them are Irish. The rest... VAN SUSTEREN: Ellen... WRIGHT: The rest are Scottish and... VAN SUSTEREN: Ellen. WRIGHT: I'm sorry. The rest are Scottish and English. VAN SUSTEREN: Ellen, let me go back to your county. Do you have any clue -- I mean, are you folks learning about Travelers in your county, or is this something that -- you know, there are a lot of people in St. Joseph County who are Travelers? CORCELLA: This is something really coming to light through this investigation. While we have heard of some people having something of a transient existence through the Midwest, quite frankly, this is the first time we've really focused on this as a group that's come out through criminal investigations. VAN SUSTEREN: Are you troubled at all by Don's statement that they're all con artists? I mean, in your mind -- I mean, you've practiced law for a number of years, I mean, that -- you know, an individual -- at least, I assume, could be in the group who could be, you know, not a con artist. Do you agree or not agree? CORCELLA: Oh, I agree with that statement. I -- I don't know or have the experience of Mr. Wright to be able to make that statement. We do know that there are criminal groups out there and that many people who are part of the group have to adopt the criminal element as part of their culture. I'm not prepared yet to adopt Mr. Wright's statement on the matter, and, in fact, our concern here is not about the con artist part of it, but the fact that Ms. Toogood beat her child and what we're going to do about that. VAN SUSTEREN: In a -- in the run-of-the-mill case in your county, Ellen, a first offender -- person -- parent who's arrested for this type of conduct -- what usually happens? CORCELLA: We take the child abuse cases very seriously, and we would vigorously prosecute it, and, depending on the circumstance, I don't think this could be considered a first-offender case when it involves a child the same way you might do a first-offender shoplifting or some other cases. What happens in this county, though, is always up to the judge, and that's probably what's going to happen in this case. VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Don, Ellen, thank you. And as a little note to the viewers, 22 years ago, Ellen Corcella was my student, and she taught me everything I know. But thank you both. VAN SUSTEREN: Thank you, Greta. -------------------------------------- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: SharonA Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:54 PM I have to disagree with "Hancock and other academics" as referred to in that Associated Press article that Larry posted. The case was initially sensationalized in the national media because of (a) the apparent severity of the beating and (b) the fact that there was a nationwide search for the woman based on her family's story that she had left the state of Indiana with her child. I did not see or hear any mention of Toogood's ethnic origins in the national media until after she'd arranged to turn herself in 8 days after the beating. The only place I saw it mentioned that she was a Traveler was on the WNDU-TV ("Michiana" area) website. This may or may not mean that discrimination against Travelers is an issue in the Midwest; I don't know. I got the impression that the Traveler connection was mentioned in the news story simply because it was informational, nothing more, and at that point (when her name was known to police but they did not know her whereabouts) I believe they were putting out such information in an effort to locate her, not to discriminate against her based on her ethnic background! Sorry, Larry, but I have to agree with those who are saying that this case is not an example of discrimination. The crime here is not that she is an Irish Traveler in the US; the crime here is that she is a woman who struck her child over 20 times, shook her and pulled her hair all in the space of a couple of minutes and who was caught on tape doing it. Her sister, meanwhile, was caught on tape doing nothing to stop her, and later that sister would not cooperate with the police's efforts to find Toogood and Martha. Both women broke the law, and certainly they cannot be excused from prosecution because of concerns about discrimination. They are in the US; therefore they must abide by US law or face the consequences, no matter where their ancestors came from. I think that the fact that the police cooperated with the arrangement made by Toogood's lawyer to have Toogood turn herself in shows that they are not interested in any sort of vigilante action against Travelers. Likewise, the court process as reported thus far does not seem anything but routine. I think that the news media's focus on Travelers as a human-interest aspect of the news story is just another example of the milking of a story by the media after the event (in this case, Toogood's beating and disappearance) is over. Falling for the media's tricks is, IMO, sensationalizing the sensationalism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:40 PM Jerry, That is a great sentence. I could use a copy of that line! It reminded me of a saying that is attributed to someone I have some reservations about, but in this case I think his words are very well put. Jack Welch, the former CEO of GE once said after listening to a panel of "experts" give their opinions, "If I have to trust someone's opinion it might as well be my own". I thought it was one of the few things that I agree with Welch on. We can each make our own judgements based on the facts. I think we know where most people's opinion's lie. The spin doctors can twist this story all they want but the underlieing facts (and admissions) are out there for all of us to see. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:39 PM Resource Links for Travelers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:28 PM I love how things get so twisted. It is standard procedure in ANY case of SUSPECTED child abuse to remove the child from the family and find placement in a foster home. It is ridiculous to assume that Irish Travelers are singled out. This is S.O.P. If you want to rail against authorities for that it is another story, but don't try playing the poor downtrodded card in this case. It isn't the issue. Children are removed while the investigation takes place and examinations are made. The family does not get custody for fear of the child being manipulated into changing the story. There are no winners in these cases, but again THIS is not a case of discrimination. Discrimination exists and it should be brought to light, but don't cloud the issue! Ron
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:17 PM I'm beginning to detect a certain air of the "Noble Savage" attitude that idealized the Native Americans in early literature (and Disney Movies.) If Irish Travelers want to be treated just like anyone else, they surely succeeded in this case. The woman was arrested, just like anyone else charged with child abuse. I have yet to see any evidence that the removal of the child from her Mother while the case is being investigated is anything but standard procedure. Whatever prejudices there are (and there may well be people involved who are reacting out of prejudice,) no evidence has been presented to support that. As far as I can see, the only people being assumed guilty until proven innocent are all non-Irish Travelers.
One other observation. Just because people are (or consider themselves) experts doesn't mean that they are right on every issue. We used to have a sign up where I worked that said "The only difference between you and an expert is that experts are better organized and show slides." I always got a kick out of that, applying it to myself. When you lose any sense of humility or human failing, you're ripe for making a fool out of yourself. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:14 PM Cant Language/ SHELTA Page http://home.sprintmail.com/~richardjwaters/shelta.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:06 PM http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/061397/met_travelermarriage.html
State legal marriage age raised
Web posted Jun. 13 at 01:05 AM
By Kathy Steele South Carolina Bureau
AIKEN - South Carolina has raised the bar on the legal age for marriages to 14 years for girls and 16 for boys.
Gov. David Beasley signed the new state law Thursday.
The bill is in response to reports that girls as young as 12 were being forced into arranged marriages with older men in the Irish Traveler community in Murphy Village. An episode of Dateline NBC prompted public outcry, followed by a decision from Attorney General Charlie Condon to form the South Carolina Traveler Crime Task Force.
A common law statute that had been on the books since South Carolina's inception allowed children as young as 12 years old to marry with parental consent.
Mr. Condon held a press conference in Aiken County on March 16 to announce plans to amend the law. He said then that common law in South Carolina ``may well provide a loophole to allow such arrangements.''
The press conference was held one day after the state task force swept through Murphy Village and arrested 14 Irish Travelers on charges of food stamp fraud, tax evasion and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
The delinquency charges related only to the truancy of Traveler children from school.
Aiken County Sheriff Howard Sellers said at the time that the task force, which had conducted a six-month investigation, had been prepared to issue warrants for violation of the existing marriage laws.
However, he said the attorney general's office advised against the warrants.
The Irish Travelers are a reclusive community of itinerant workers, about 2,000, living in lavish houses and mobile homes on either side of U.S. Highway 25, between Aiken and Edgefield counties. They're descended from 19th century Irish peddlers, and some have reputations as scam artists.
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Nerd Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM Larry, I'm going to contradict you on something else, which is that PhDs who do research on Irish Travellers are in agreement that they are law-abiding citizens. In fact, one such PhD scholar, whose name you would all recognize as he has folk music connections, has told me privately that many South Carolina Irish Travelers--among whom he has worked--definitely pride themselves on their ability to defraud people. This certainly has to do with the history of oppression; why would you feel it is immoral to defraud people who, you believe, have systematically or individually stolen from you in the past? Indeed, whether ripping off the housewife with a roofing scam constitutes immorality of justice is a legitimate question. (I still believe it's immoral, BTW.) But this is different from saying that "only the police" and Midwestern housewives believe that Travellers are more likely than average to commit certain crimes. Why does this not get reflected in the research? An anthropolgist or other fieldworker working in today's University milieu simply cannot accuse the community he studies of wrongodoing of this sort for a number of reasons, among which are the PC nature of Universities and funding institutions and the fact that the Travellers would never allow him to do research among them anymore. Therefore, he has sensibly said that he will never publish anything impugning Travellers in this way. Privately, it's another matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jeri Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:48 PM I wrote "If policy is to remove a child from a home situation when abuse is suspected until that situation can be investigated, how can this possibly show discrimination against one particular group when the same thing is done for every case?" Rephrasing this to hopefully make sense: If the policy is to remove a child from a home situation (pending investigation) when abuse is suspected, how can following this policy show discrimination? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:42 PM Well said, Big Mick. Larry, you said: "...but when it leads to serial arrest of [their] family and deprivation of a child to her ethnic identity, that is the crime..." Are you saying that other members of the family have been arrested in this case? And how is temporarily being placed with another family deprivation of her ethnic identity? If she does think of herself as a traveller, as you attest, then she is unlikely to change her mind in the couple of weeks she is with a non-traveller family. Of course, she's probably a little confused and scared, but that's not an ethnic trait, that's just the way a normal 4 year old would feel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:27 PM It's good that Martha was not seriously hurt, as the experts say. But again, I ask - WHAT IF SHE HAD BEEN? The videotape gives every indication that this was a possibility. What if she had been seriously hurt, and no one did anything? Are we to just stand by and let people beat their children, just because they belong to an ethnic minority? Maybe this particular incident has been taken out of proportion - but what about the next time? What about the person who really is an abuser?
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jeri Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:21 PM If policy is to remove a child from a home situation when abuse is suspected until that situation can be investigated, how can this possibly show discrimination against one particular group when the same thing is done for every case? Larry, I think you're trying to hard to prove relevence. I don't think I'm going to ever see it because it's either not there or it's buried under your defense of illogical examples. As long as you continue debating instead of explaining why you see things like you do, no one is going to 'get it'. Or maybe you just wanted the debate and not understanding? In any case, these are my perceptions: This case was and is a non-example of discrimination. Discrimination surely exists, but to try so desperately and so ineffectively to make this particular case into an example weakens the significance of future examples. I perceive that the point you're trying to prove is more important to you than the truth. I'll remember that when reading future posts by you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:57 AM Sorry for the format problems, and paralegal, is actual political scientist, some crossed wires, no real harm... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:55 AM That should read a not our family, started to say something else... I am not a family member! Cheers Larry PS BC-Irish Travelers,0607 Experts shed light on reclusive, nomadic clans that roam the country -- By LISA FALKENBERG Associated Press Writer DALLAS (AP) … The tearful testimonial Madelyne Gorman Toogood gave in front of glaring TV cameras after she was videotaped beating her daughter was starkly uncharacteristic of the reclusive, media-shy Irish Travelers culture to which she belongs, experts say. Toogood, who was caught beating her 4-year-old daughter, Martha, in a department store parking lot, said she is a member of the clannish, nomadic culture of Irish descendants, most of whom came to the United States as refugees during the potato famine in the 1840s. "By nature, they're very reclusive people," said Joe Livingston, a South Carolina state investigator who has been tracking Travelers for nearly two decades. "They tend to shy away from publicity." Some law enforcement experts who have studied the culture paint it as a secret society, fond of material wealth evidenced by gaudy jewelry and new vehicles. Police often associate Travelers with scams involving fraudulent home repair that target the elderly. They tend to use aliases, carry bogus identification cards, and avoid contact with non-Travelers, whom they call "country folk," authorities said. But professors and academics said the reclusiveness is a defense mechanism against stereotypes and the ancient persecution that has haunted nomadic peoples throughout history. Travelers, who may be Irish, English, or Scottish, have no more criminals among them than any other ethnic culture, experts said. "If there were, they could not sustain their living," said Larry Otway, who began studying Irish Travelers in 1977 and has worked as a paralegal and adviser on court cases involving Scottish travelers. What the clans in the culture do share, Otway said, is a nomadic lifestyle, a language called "Scelta" with roots in Gaelic and Romani, an almost "pathologic" devotion to Catholicism, and an anti-bureaucratic form of self government that he describes as a "consensus democracy." The largest Traveler settlement is a group of 3,000 in Murphy Village, S.C., experts said. Toogood is believed to belong to the Greenhorn Carrolls, a Traveler group in the Fort Worth area. Estimates of the U.S. Traveler population vary from 20,000 to 100,000. Ian F. Hancock, a professor at the University of Texas who wrote the Irish Travelers entry for the Encyclopedia of the South, said a distraught Toogood called him Thursday seeking advice. "She was scared to turn herself in because she knows very well how the police feel about the Irish Travelers," said Hancock, who has a reputation as a sympathizer of the group. "She didn't think she'd get a fair shake and she knew she'd been rough with the child." Toogood, who also has two young sons, remains free on a $5,000 bond and is scheduled to appear in court Oct. 7. If convicted, she faces up to three years in prison. She was scheduled to have a 90-minute supervised meeting with her daughter on Tuesday but the child, who is in foster care, was sick. An attorney for the state said Toogood would be allowed to see Martha on Wednesday if the girl has recovered from the flu. Hancock and other academics said they believe Toogood's case has been sensationalized by the media because of her ethnicity. "As bad as what she did, and it's inexcusable, I still think there's an awful lot of profiling going on," Hancock said. "Very much is being made of her ethnic background. If she were German American or Italian American, would that even be an issue?" AP-ES-09-25-02 0555EDT
formatting edited by mudelf ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:45 AM Hi Mick, Big grin on yer answer to Sapper, your right though that is another thread where you and I have our backs against the same wall... Kim, I do know these people personaly and the child does speak Scelta. As to the general concept, I have addressed the question to Dr. Mary Beth Anderk, who did her doctral thesis on the issue of American Traveller self identification, and she is in agreement that a four year old Traveller has a fully developed sence of belonging to Travellers. And Rick, no, the tape, and I have seen the tape played over and over, does not show a beating, it shows a repeted slapping, forensics were done in New Jersey the next day, and showed no bruises, yes we should not slap our children, but when it leads to serial arrest of our family and deprivation of a child to her ethnic identity, that is the crime, the over prosecution, not the loss of self control by a parent. It takes away from the real child abuse cases, where children are seriously mistreated. The doctors, not me, said this was not an abused child, nor did she show any signs of past abuse. It is hard to defend someone who does something you hope you would not do, but proportion is important, and destroying a family for one mistake is a proportional error which rises to the level of ... here it comes again, prejudice in this case. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:29 AM Sapper..........you know that my opinion is that you are as bad as the "Irish Nationalists and Shamrock Yanks" you purport to disdain. But could we start a new thread where I can attack your horseshit, oversimplified views instead of trying to take over this one. Thanks, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DonMeixner Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM Oh Wow!. Will this get out of hand now. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:25 AM Larry, you know full well that most of us have been supportive of many of your views, and consider you a friend. As do I. But you continue to duck under the cover of the same old same old on this one. I am in agreement completely with your views on prejudice, never letting it go unchallenged, looking for it everywhere. And should you desire to start a thread about prejudice, I will be in it with both feet, challenging the majority population to examine their conscious and sub conscious prejudices. But you predicated this whole thread on the fact that a video shows a woman beating a kid, she turns out to be a Traveller, hence it must be prejudice. It isn't. Period. In todays society, it is not OK to do what she did. Period. The authorities have an obligation just now to err on the side of the child's safety. Another thing you seem to have a predilection for is stating an opinion as fact. An example is your contention that a four year old is fully encultured, and you seem to imply that they are fully developed culturally and socially. That is not a fact accepted by any professional I know of. In fact most professionals will tell you that a child doesn't even develope a real, values based sense of right and wrong until they are about 8 years old. Which is not to say that every effort shouldn't be made to put the child in an environment that they are comfortable in. But in abuse cases, they should err on the side of safety. I think that you have trapped yourself, my friend, on this issue. Better to let it go and start a thread that deals with prejudicial viewpoints about Travellers. That would be a great debate. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ditchdweller Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:21 AM From InOBU:- "Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... " So the evil British Government deliberately infected the potato crop with blight as a means of getting rid of the Irish? Do me a favour! At the time the causes of blight were unknown so how could they? The main single cause of the Potato Famine was an over reliance on a single crop that allowed the population of Ireland to expand to an extent that would not have happened otherwise. When, after several minor failures that ought to have given warning, the crop predicatably failed there was a famine that has, ever since, been a propaganda milch cow for all the Irish Nationalists and Shamrock Yanks. What they fail to mention is that the situation was exacerbated by the theft, by Irishmen themselves, of relief funds that had been raised in several cities in England. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:04 AM Larry, the child was not placed in a foster home because her mother was semi-nomadic, and the mother was not accused of being a bad mother because she was semi-nomadic. She's accused of being a bad mother because she beat the hell out of her kid. The kid was placed in a foster home so the kid wouldn't disappear during the investigation. This has nothing to do with Ms. Gorman's ethinicity, but because she, as an individual, has a history of not sticking around to talk to the police. It still seems like you are expecting some sort of preferential treatment for her because of her cultural background. I won't say that none of the people involved in the case might not be prejudiced (because I don't know one way or the other) but the actions of law enforcement regarding this woman have been fair and handled exactly like they would have handled any other transient resident of any race that not only has a criminal history, but has confessed to the crime. If you had started a thread about general prejudice, I'd have been all ears. But it's hard to discuss prejudice with someone who is yelling "wolf" over nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:55 AM Jerry, At the risk of the dreaded "thread creep," I think you are right on the money with what you say. I saw a bumper sticker that said I HATE MEAN PEOPLE kinda makes sense. I have a daughter-in-lay who is the sweetest person in the world, raised in a very liberal home in the northeast, and here she goes to Georgia, and fate worse than death, falls in love with my son, a conservative (although I have never known him to kill puppies or push old ladies in front of speeding cars) Well, her family, the most "political correct" people in the world, just can't seem to believe that we are OK people who haven't lynched any negroes, put any homeles peeople in jail or generally been horrible. THe pure fact is, that these PC liberal people are PREJUDICED AGAINST US BECAUSE OF OUR POLITICAL OR SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASS. Kinda funny in a way, but sad. I feel that I as well as a lot of other folks in the same political and socio-economic class as me, do as much to try to make it a better world, to try to right the wrongs, to try to generally be good people as many of the folks who spend all the time talking about the injustices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:54 AM Bloody hell, this is still a debate? A woman was caught on video tape whackin' a baby. What's to debate? All my adult life I've attempted to be OVERLY-informed, and I totally reject filtering ANY situation through an ideology. No amount of reading, observing, and being outraged at obvious injustice, will allow me to turn a blind eye to a woman taking dozens of swings at her child. You're right, "I don't get it", and I hope I never do. Sorry Larry, I agree with you on a great many issues, and I'm used to being in the minority as far as politics go, but in this case, I'm happy to be part of the vast majority who "don't get it". Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:50 AM Okay, Larry, I can understand that. But do you know these people personally, so that you know for sure that this particular child is bilingual, and understands her culture? It seems that you are making generalizations which may not necessarily apply. So what was on that video, if it wasn't abuse? And as I asked before, what is the proper way to handle such a case? If the child is endangered, what are they supposed to do? What would you do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:32 AM Hi, Jimmy: Why some of my best friends are not only middle class Republicans, they are ultra-consrvative Republicans. Why I even have friends who are millionaires, many times over. As well as a friend who is a garbage collector. We even have a swimming pool (although it's above ground, so don't be too hard on us.)
I've stated this in another thread, but it's worth repeating. A friend of mine once said, "We get the life we perceive." If you wake up every morning, straining to see any signs of prejudice, then all you will see is ugliness... real, perceived and imagined. None of us want to turn our back on prejudice. But in the process, I don't want to lose sight of the basic generosity and goodness of most people. I also don't want to be so blinded that I can't see a child being beaten because I am so intent in rooting out prejudice. That's the basic issue that Larry either can't look at, or is unwilling to even acknowledge. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:13 AM You know, Seamus, and Kim, I know you have good hearts, but you should read more carefully, the aspect of this which is discrimination (rather than simply over prosicution) is taking the child and placing her with non-travellers, and by the way ALL the doctors who have examined her have said she is not a victem of child abuse, but that is not the issue, the issue is the removal of children from their ethnic community when that community is seen as a paraih group or a suspect class for discrimination. The fact is that a four year old, and this four year old IS fully encultureted. A four year old Traveller is bi-lingual in Scelta as well as English, and knows that she has a dual national immage as an American and a Traveller. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM How does a 4-year-old have a fully developed sense of self? Here's what I saw on the video. I saw a white woman put a child into the back of a pretty nice SUV and proceed to beat the snot out of her. I don't know she's Irish, I don't know she's a Traveller, and quite frankly I COULD NOT CARE LESS. Child abuse is still a crime in the US, as far as I know. If my brother beat his kid, and I knew about it, and I actively tried to hide him - I'd be arrested too. (although, personally, if I knew my brother committed a crime, I'd turn his ass in. And he'd be disappointed in me if I didn't.) That's just how the system works. If it can be proven without a doubt that she's being picked on because she's a Traveller, fine, go for it. But right now she's being picked on because she beat up on someone less than half her size. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM I find it interesting that Larry can generalize about the government, the media, and law enforcement, yet any effort to enforce the law and protect an innocent child is met with "Oh those poor travellers are being profiled and this is a prejudiced act!" I find that personally the people that are the most prejudiced are those bleeding heart do-gooders that are sure there is a conspiracy against Blacks, gays, American Natives or you pick it. I believe that Jerry Rassmussin has said it all with his above posting. I find it insulting that any group gets stereotyped including white middleclass Republicans like myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:53 AM Larry, are you saying that because of prejudice against Travellers (which I know exists, unfortunately) that it's okay for a Traveller to beat the crap out of her child while it is restrained, defenseless in a car-seat? That her background and culture justifies violence against her offspring, and that she should not be held accountable for her actions? Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM When it comes to the common view of Travellers and Roma, I am used to being in a small minority, it is why after the holocaust, the Pouramous to Roma, when the world gave Isreal to the Jewish people, Roma were given refugee camps on the borders of Germany, walled ghettos in Chezh Repulic, Racial pofrofiling in the US, nothing, new, I don't realy expect much more, if things change, I will be pleasently surprised. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:21 AM Larry, start a thread about prejudices against travelers etc. and you'll have a lot of support from many of those who think you are mistaken in this particular thread with this particular start. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:10 AM A night-time driver is on his way on a German Autobahn and listens to the radio. They interrupt the program and say: "Attention please, there is an urgent warning for the Autobahn A2. There is a driver using the wrong side of the Autobahn. Please stay on the right hand lane and don't overtake." The driver mutters to himself: "What do they mean, one? Hundreds, I'd say." Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:06 AM "It is an internationaly accepted wrong to separate a child from a close kinship group like Indians or Roma, or Pavees and place that child with a group which discriminates against that child." A few questions:-
- Where is this "internationally accepted"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Grab Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:00 AM "It is an internationaly accepted wrong to separate a child from a close kinship group like Indians or Roma, or Pavees and place that child with a group which discriminates against that child." A few questions:-
- Where is this "internationally accepted"? None of us are claiming there is no prejudice any more. What we're all trying to pound into your granite-hard prejudice against the police is that what's happened here is no different to what would have happened to anyone of any other ethnic origin who was caught beating their child around the head. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:28 AM PS Silly River sage thanks for the links, they are exactly what I refer to as anti Traveller and Roma discrimination. Note that unlike the Phd these of Mary Beth Anderek, on Traveller identity in the US, unlike the works of Dr. Ian Handcock on Romani lingistics and rights, and unlike the work of Dr. Ruth Anderson on the Roma of America, and unlike the work of Dr. Marilyn Sway on Roma ecconomics in the US, and unlike the work of Dr. Sutherland who wrote about Roma in Texas, and unlike the work of Dr Walter O Wyraush on Roma government in the US, unlike all the above the bigot who wrote the following from that web page did not sign his or her name "Roma: A word created by Professor Ian Hancock (a Rom) from Texas University. This designation has no counterpart in ethnic reality in North America. There are groups in eastern Europe who call themselves Roma, but that is irrelevant for the American context. ". This was written by an obviouly uneducated bigot, as anyone who has studied the subject can tell you because of the cultureal isolation of Roma in the US, they are remarkably cultrealy intact as Roma. Thanks Sage, Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DonMeixner Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:19 AM Larry, You are correct. But all that has nothing to do with child abuse. I will say again any security person would have viewed that video tape and assumed the child was being beaten. It is impossible to tell the ethnic status of the woman. It is ridiculous to assume that all Travellers are criminals based on the fact that this woman clearly is a criminal if we accept child battery to be a crime. It is equally ridiculous to assume that all Asians are cello players because Yo Yo Ma is so good at it. Few of us have held the Traveller/Crime connection in this forum. I will state my only concern regarding this incident is the endangered child. There is nothing cultural about child abuse here it is a criminal act plan and simple. And Ms. Twogood should be punished for the crime. Don
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:55 AM Checking in as I am getting my travel plans together... a few quick observations, the fact that one of our fellow catters feels that Travellers define themselves by their secrecy and crime is an example of the effects of prejudice. The fact is that police officers, as part of a history of racialized profiling of these people define them as a criminal subculture, and use the word secretive. I have (as well as knowing many many Travellers here and in Ireland) have read much of the literature generated by folks with higher degrees. In sociological studies -- folklorist studies by Phd's rather than amateur folklorists like myself, one finds no evidence that crime is the defining aspect of the culture of Travellers. Rather, one finds that they have built walls around their community in the same way the Amish have. Folks don't refer to the Amish as secretive, but rather accept that coming from their history of discrimination during the suppression of the Mennonites, (their parent faith) they became reclusive In this case the prosecutor and social workers have said they are going to investigate this family to see if they are fit parents and that "transience" is an aspect that they will consider a negative. In point of fact, being semi nomadic defines Traveller culture, it is part of the wall against prejudice. Having been forced to Travel, they have adapted to economy suited to migration. To say that nomadic people are bad parents for the reason of their nomadism in prejudice per se, and it is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of the UN convention on the rights of the child. As one of my Traveller friends once said to me, "Country folk (non Travellers) don't realize how small this country is. We have been painting farm buildings for one hundered and fifty years. If we went around robbing people, and not doing a good job, we would run out of folks to take advantage of. Most of us do good work, and keep the same costumers for generations. But, because of the way folks look at Travellers, we keep it to ourselves that we are Travellers." Yup... I am looking under rocks for prejudice, we all should, every morning we should get up and challenge our own unconscious acceptance of prejudice we never thought about. I cringe when Friends (Quakers) unthinkingly use the word "Bum", when we stop looking for prejudice, it spreads like weeds. Best to all , Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Bullfrog Jones (on the road) Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:07 AM Sorry, Larry, but you sound like the guy in the session complaining that everyone's out of tune except him! BJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:56 AM Well, Gee Larry, it's true that I'm not being interviewed by the Associated Press, and I don't know much at all about Irish Travellers. You seem extremely committed to fighting the prejudice that must exist, even in cases where prejudice isn't the issue. I spend much of my life now moving in an inter-racial world, and enjoying it thoroughly. My gospel quartet is black, 'cept for me, my wife and I go about equally to black churches where I am usually the only white, and white churches where my wife is one of the few, if not only blacks. My wife and I have travelled throughout the Midwest, along the East Coast, much of the South and in Europe and Africa. I've walked through little fishing villages in Africa with the little kids all wanting to hold my hand, and we've gone into small towns in the south and my wife has been greeted enthusiastically and with respect. Mostly, we just enjoy people, enjoy life, and see the goodness in others. Sounds to me like you're always looking behind the curtain, ready to blow the whistle, Larry.
Last Saturday, we had a cookout at our home and everyone had a great time. No one was worried about whether someone else was prejudiced, or what others were REALLY thinking. We just had a great time.. Just people enjoying each other, whether they knew each other, or were of the same religion. Even though my quartet is obviously Christian, when we get together with family and friends, there are usually Muslims there, and when we eat, we say grace in the name of Jesus, and the Muslims add their grace in the name of Allah. Those who don't believe in God, respect those who do, and the reverse is true. If there was an Irish Traveller there (as if anyone would know unless they announced it) they would be warmly welcomed, too. I think that 95% of people are that way, including everyone on Mudcat unless proven otherwise. The 5% that are prejudiced are the ones who are miserable. And their numbers are reducing every year. If my wife and I can travel freely in this country and be greeted warmly. considering how much racial prejudice this country has had in its history,(and how easy it is to tell that we're an inter-racial couple in comparison to telling that someone is an Irish Traveller)I think it speaks well for the warmth and generosity of Americans. When my English Mudcat friends come over here to visit, they always remark on how warm and friendly people are here. You seem to see prejudiced people hiding behind every bush.
Just a warm word of welcome to our Mudcatter friends across the sea. If you are travelling over here, we're happy to have you and will do everything we can to give you a good time. Admittedly, we're a little edgy about folks visiting from the Middle East right now, but hopefully that will pass... it hasn't always been that way. I have a family member who grew up in the Middle East, and he's just Ramesh.
Folks is folks. And horses is horses. Just don't confuse their music. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Davetnova Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:38 AM A lot of the arguments above and many issues in th Uk seem to be directly related to Political Correctness. In the Uk we have Rastafarians effectively immune from Drug laws and Moslems apperently excused from laws governing abbatoirs and animal welfare. In many cases the first cry when any accusation or criticism is made is This is only because I'm ******(fill in ethnicity of choice) Only this morning Jack Straw declared on TV that Iraq is the only country to have invaded another in recent times. Forget Israel, Forget America, forget many others. The truth is that their are good people bad people and some who are good sometimes and bad others. The shade of my skin (which is that very pale brown colour sometimes called white) has no bearing on this nor does the culture in which I was brought up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: katlaughing Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM For a good, educational read, may I suggest those who are interested take a look at this, previously posted by derrymacash in another thread, in which Paddy Keenan talks about growing up in Ireland as a settled Pavee. There are some very interesting facts, along with links. In the thread I linked to earlier, there is also some info on how a lot of the groups in the UK are opportunity-seeking "new agers" and should not be confused with Pavees. Generalisations about any group generally suck.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:44 AM I waited to get home to look at my browser for the "visited links" from a search yesterday. The pages weren't coming up for me at work and I didn't have time to fool with it. This site discusses traveler and gypsy culture and worldviews in a fair amount of depth. It's a sub-link from this site. InOBU, most groups would blanch at being accused of cultural criminal practices. As one of 1/2 Irish descent myself, I don't like to finger other Irish for their criminal acts that help define their lifestyles and culture. But Travelers are a group that apparently prides itself on it's secretive practices and ability to live by preying on the weaker members of society at large. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:02 AM I am willing to go a bit farther than Ron. Larry, I find your assertion that we "just don't get it" to be insulting. I get prejudice just fine, thanks. Seems like I have spent the best part of my 51+ years combatting it. I guess my resume probably matches up pretty well with yours. I get it fine, thank you. But you are using a very unfortunate incident to further a different cause. I could care less if the person involved is Roma, Irish, Orange, Green, Black, White, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, survivalist, mentalist or Dutch. What she did was wrong and abusive. There are sufficient indicators to create a concern for flight risk with the child. The tape certainly provides just cause for the charge, as well as to the custody issue. Your cause is just, but you are being very opportunistic on this one. I think it does a disservice to the cause you embrace. My last word on this one............unless, of course, you try to tell me I don't get it again.............hahahahahaha Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:41 PM Larry, we will await your return. It does seem like you are the one who doesn't get it in this case. There is no denying that anti-gypsy prejudice exists. However that is not the issue in this case, no matter what you would like us to believe. If you have some proof please let us know, I will be the first to admit I'm wrong.
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:32 PM DougR: I totally agree. I just thought your wording was...shall we say, careful to avoid a common metaphor that happens also to suggest abuse. But yeah, whether you call it beating a dead horse or riding a worn-out one, I think he's probably not going to find much support here, least of all from me. SW |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:20 PM Some folks just don't get it. So, OK, we will all pretend there is no anti Gypsy prejudice anymore. I have to go off on bis. for a few days, when I get back there will be more to say. I was interviewed by the AP, due to my acknowleged expertice on the subject of Roma and Travellers, so when there is a site I will let you all know... Cheers all, Larry PS Joe Thanks for those links, great job, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:03 PM I think the "parallel" between a generic black person "slapping" their child (why do you minimize what happened so much, Larry?) being investigated by a drug officer is totally nonsensical. I find nothing strange about why officers who investigate fraud would question someone who has been guilty of fraud in the past. And who is to say that the girl is going to be permanently placed in a foster home?... seems like you're jumping to one conclusion after another, Larry. And saying that "she is being prosecuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller" seems to totally ignore what happened. I think you should give this one up, Larry. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DougR Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:29 PM Nope, I don't think it does Nerd. This thread could go to 200 posts divided into several threads the way things go here on the old Mudcat. Most of them would say more of less the same thing though, I think. I was merely trying to point out to Larry, Nerd, that his take on this particular subject, in the few posts recorded to that time, didn't appear to be getting much support. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM It's an internationally accepted wrong to remove a child from an abusive situation? If there's someone else in the family who can care for the child, great. If there isn't, what's the other option? Nashville's full of gypsies. There's a large family of them that's fortune-tellers. I'm not kidding. I used to sell advertising to them when I worked at the newspaper. At one time, the mother and two or three of the daughters were all running ads together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:29 PM Larry, you're jumping to conclusions again. I gotta tell you Larry, from here it looks like you are the one making the generalizations and the stereotypes. She has outstanding warrants, multiple IDs, a transient history --uh, that's not discriminating, that's taking precautions dealing with a known lawbreaker. That you equate her history with being a traveller says that you're the one that wants her treated like an cultural product instead of an individual. She broke the law. She got caught. She'll have her day in court. CPS does not wantonly place kids in temporary homes. They go to homes of people they have checked out already. If I were the agent, and I had a family group that was KNOWN to be transient in a high profile case, you had better believe that I would put the child in a home that I was 100% sure was safe and stable. It has nothing to do with her cultural affiliation, it's S.O.P. If Grandma is a flight risk, you don't place the kid with Grandma because you want to keep tabs on the kid until the situation is resolved. Then you WANT her child treated differently because of her ethinicity. By suggesting that temporary placement with someone with a different ethnic or cultural background is wrong, I suppose you think that it would be wrong to place a black child in a white home? A Catholic child in a Protestant home? You accuse of treating them differently on one hand, then want special treatment on the other. The more I learn about this case, the more I think it's completely irrelevant what her ethinicity is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:28 PM I actually would agree with you, Ron, that we should let the law take its course; I don't think this will result in her permanent removal from her parents unless there are other factors involved, so the system will probably work. I was just arguing against the folks who believe they already know she should be removed, based only on the tape. I also think Larry's "riding a worn out horse." DougR, does this wording mean that the subject matter of this post has made us all a little too sensitive to accept "beating a dead horse" without comment? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DougR Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:06 PM Larry, I think you are riding a worn out horse. In the majority of these posts, no one mentions the press in their area noting that the mother was Irish, a Traveler, or anything other than a child abuser. Climb own down off that old cayuse and give it a rest, okay? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:43 PM Nerd, No harm done :) I think we are all a bit passionate about this subject. It is very true that in "the good old days" kids were not treated with kidgloves. I am 45 and I remember getting spanked. Today it seems barbaric, back then it was normal. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the word is so screwed up. Discipline with force is merely a sign of a parent giving up. Perhaps it was Dr.Spock that figured it out. There is no justification for a person to take their aggression out on somebody so much smaller and defenseless, and especially on someone that looks up to that parent for love and guidance. It is very true that we can't see everything that is going on in the video. Unless I've missed something, I don't think she denied that she went overboard on her child. Her reaction of not thinking the punishment justifies the crime is a natural one. While her heritage maybe an "Irish Traveler", I believe she is a citizen of the United States. The laws are what they are. Fight to change the law, not fight to ignore them. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:33 PM I found some sites worth looking at:All are very enlightening. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:28 PM Nicely done, Ron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:23 PM By the way, you mention that she should be turned over to the Traveler community. Following that logic, should priests accused of being pedophiles be turned over to the church? Oh yeah, I guess that does happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM Okay, Ron. maybe I was a little obnoxious in my post. Sorry about that :-) But it's really not so shocking that I was "abused" in your terms. It is in the background of many, many ethnic groups in America to smack around children when they misbehave. My mom's mom used a dishtowel braided into a club! These were traditional methods of punishment brought from Europe (I remember the towel had a special Yiddish name). Many of my friends of my age have similar things in their history; one of my best friends, whose father was black, used to be smacked with a belt. I got my mother's open hand and sometimes a wooden spoon. If you think this is shocking, ask other people between thirty and fifty and you'll get lots of similar stories; the idea that hitting your kids is horrible abuse did not become popular in this country until Dr. Spock's book was a hit. I'm not coming down on one or another side of this issue because I do think it's better not to hit your children. But I'm not willing to condemn a huge number of mothers in America who came of age prior to the 1950s and say that most of us raised by those mothers should have been taken away from them. Finally, my point was that you could not see her hands in the video. I don't know if what I saw was a smack or not. It's all up to the interpreter to supply what wasn't in the frame. I did see shaking, I saw that there were blows, but I could not see what kind of blows they were. It could have been a bunch of smacks with the figertips, and it could have been punching with the fist. All I'm saying is that I'm not willing to gamble that foster care is a better option than leaving her with her parents based on what might have been happening outside of the frame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:19 PM Larry, It isn't the reporting, it is the "expert" that shows bias. However, it still isn't the core of this issue. In this country there are laws established to protect the welfare of the child. It is very true that the laws can be excessive and a child can pulled from a parent under suspicion of abuse... and that goes for a parent of any hue or nationality. As for your reference to a "black American" slapping her child, if that parent was wanted on drug charges wouldn't a drug expert comment? It seems that Toogood had at least two outstanding warrants and skipped a hearing. Hmmm, wouldn't this seem to justify speaking to an "expert"? The problem hear is that the police are the ones manipulating the media. If they feed the media information about warrants and "travelers", the media tries to get answers to questions that we all have. If you read this thread you will see that many were not aware that Travelers exist in this country. By the way Larry, if you check your last sentence it looks like you made the same mistakes. You stated "The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination. " Well if you read the article that you posted, there is no assumption made that ALL Travelers are rich nor that all were involved. The facts that you quoted do mention her history of being involved in fraud cases so yes, it is justified and no it is not discrimination. Of course there is discrimination and it is wrong, but lets not start fires where none existed before. Ron
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:17 PM she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States That is from your opening post, Larry. It is wrong. She is being prosecuted for strapping the child in a seat, and then slapping and shaking the child in a very dangerous way. The contention that she should be given to the Traveller community also misses the point, and IMHO, is an attempt at obfuscation. You are attempting to turn this into a discrimination case. It is not. It is about abuse, pure and simple. I would prefer that the authorities determine that they are not releasing the child into a dangerous situation. I would prefer that the system go its normal route, with testimony from Grandparents, or other interested relatives, or members of the community, whereby they demonstrate to advocates on behalf of the child, why they are the best qualified. Perhaps the family is the best suited, but maybe not. Let it work. I say again, this isn't a case of us versus them. It is about a defenseless child. It is NOT about whose Mother beat who, and did we survive it OK. It is about THIS Mother getting caught, and once that occurred the system must take over in the interest of the child. That is what a thinking, progressive society does. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM PS How about the next time a Black American slapps her kid we get an expert on drug addiction to comment, now anyone who does not see the bigotry in that, and overlooks the bigotry in the reporting above, should spend some quiet time thinking.... Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:01 PM My my my, alot of folks are missing the point. 1. The child was not only taken from HER but taken from the TRAVELLER comunity! It is an internationaly accepted wrong to separate a child from a close kinship group like Indians or Roma, or Pavees and place that child with a group which discriminates against that child. Even if the family is liberal and not anti Traveller, the message it sends the child is that your people are not equal. As to the reporting... "Beating suspect: 'I'm not a monster' Melody Mcdonald Star-Telegram Staff Writer Standing outside the county jail in South Bend, Ind., a Fort Worth-based Irish Traveller tearfully proclaimed that she is "not a monster" despite the videotaped image of her slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. Freed on bail Saturday after surrendering to authorities, Madelyne Toogood, 25, broke down during a nationally televised news conference over the loss of her daughter, who has temporarily been placed with foster parents. "They shouldn't have taken her," Toogood cried, referring to Child Protective Services. "They shouldn't have did this. ... I'm not a monster." With her hair changed from blond to brown since the day she was captured on videotape outside a department store, Toogood said her little girl shouldn't be punished for her mistake. "No one has the right to strike a child," Toogood said. "I'm paying for it. My entire family is paying for it. "Martha is my child. I think she is wonderful. ... I would lay my life down for her." Toogood, also known as Madelyne Gorman, surrendered to authorities about 4:30 p.m. Saturday. She arrived at the Mishawaka, Ind., police station in a convoy of vehicles that carried her Houston-based attorney Steven Rocket Rosen and her daughter. Authorities said the child was being examined by a doctor and appeared to be in good condition. The child "is a neat human being and seems to be fine," Christopher Toth, the prosecuting attorney of St. Joseph County, said Saturday in a press conference. Authorities said Toogood, who cooperated with investigators during an interview, was booked into the county jail and released after posting $5,000 bail. Prosecutors had initially requested a $50,000 bond because of her transient history. Officials said Child Protective Services will temporarily place the child with another family, a decision that clearly upset Toogood. The woman told reporters that she has been a mother since she was 19 and has three children, and that nothing like this has "ever happened before." She said she has 50 family members, many of whom have permanent residences, who could care for her child. Her attorney also criticized the girl's temporary placement with another family, saying that the Toogood family was tight-knit and traumatized by the decision. "To me, this is very detrimental, very psychologically detrimental, bordering on abusive," Rosen said. He said his client was angry because her child had misbehaved in the department store, but said he would not defend the attack. "It's clear here the young lady lost her temper," he said. "I'm not here to say she's not guilty. ... She committed a shameful act. She shall be punished." Indiana authorities issued an arrest warrant Friday afternoon for Toogood after charging her with battery of a child, a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. Authorities had been searching for Toogood and her daughter since Sept. 13, when the mother was captured on a videotape outside a Kohl's department store in Mishawaka. In the video, Toogood is seen placing her daughter in a sport utility vehicle, then slapping, punching and shaking the girl for several seconds. The episode occurred after the woman left the store angry over being refused a cash refund, authorities said. Authorities feared that the child might have been seriously injured, but they were unable to locate her or her mother. On Wednesday, the Mishawaka Police Department began distributing copies of the tape to the media, asking for the public's help in finding her. Toogood's sister, 31-year-old Margaret Daley, who authorities say was with her at the store, was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor count of failure to report child abuse and a felony count of assisting a criminal. She was released Friday after posting $2,150 bail. Toogood and Daley are affiliated with an Irish Traveller group in Texas known as the Greenhorn Carrolls, a close-knit family that often spends the winters at campgrounds in White Settlement, Fort Worth and Haltom City. During the summer, the group travels north seeking temporary work, such as asphalt paving, roofing and painting. While the men work, the women often frequent malls, beauty salons and tanning salons. Law enforcement authorities say that some Irish Travellers are experienced con artists, but that many are law-abiding citizens. Joe Livingston, a South Carolina-based expert on Travellers, said many are masters of "illusion and confusion," often obtaining fictitious driver's licenses and identification cards and using multiple home addresses. Toogood -- who under both names has identification cards and driver's licenses from numerous states, and several addresses in Fort Worth and elsewhere -- has warrants out for her arrest in Fort Worth and White Settlement. White Settlement issued a warrant on April 9 after she failed to pay a $202 traffic ticket for having no driver's license. In May, Fort Worth police issued another warrant for her arrest after she failed to appear in court to face theft charges stemming from a March 27 incident at a Kohl's store here. Dirk Moore, a Texas member of the National Association of Bunco Investigators who has investigated the Travellers for 12 years, said Saturday that he was surprised that Toogood surrendered. "I figured she would disappear, and someone would find her in five or six years when they ran her fingerprints," Moore said. "I'm surprised she turned herself in, and I'm surprised she brought the little girl with her." Moore said he was not surprised, however, that she sought out a prominent attorney to help her. "That is not a surprise," he said. "Most Travellers are fairly wealthy, and it is not uncommon for them to hire prominent attorneys to handle major cases -- and ones that have been successful in defending their clients. "They are able to afford the best." This article contains material from the Associated Press. " The contention that all travellers are rich is nonsence, that they are all involved is liable, that you interview anti Fraud cops about a child slapping case is discrimination. Cheers back at ya Rick! Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:38 PM Nerd, if you considered what you saw a "smack" I am shocked. If you received similar "smacks" as a child, you were abused. What we saw on videotape was not a "smack". Perhaps your set needs some adjustment, or a dose of reality. I still disagree with you about the marks and I've met victims of spousal abuse who tell you the same, but again you miss the point. The child was not hurt but the blows could have caused serious damage. If I pull out a gun and pull the trigger but the bullet misses you, does that mean I wasn't trying to kill you? Would you be crying "poor Ron, another guy from NJ being singled out for something he didn't do?" No harm, no foul does not work in this case. Also, thank you for jumping on my mistake of saying that you can catch intent on videotape. I guess your eyes are pretty good! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM Add my name to those who thought that Gypsies existed only to come over to your table and play a romantic violin piece. I thought the women all looked like Rhonda Fleming or Arlene Dahl and never wore anything but off the shoulder (Peasant) blouses with their waists pinched tight.
I grew up in southern Wisconsin and never heard of gypsies in our area (or in the whole country, for that matter.) In terms of prejudice and discrimination, they didn't even make the top twenty.
The assumption that everyone remembers when the Gypsies were coming to town is completely erroneous. You might even say that it's wrong. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM Sorry, Larry. I'm with Mick, Rick, Jeri and the others on this one. The mother is a woman who beat the crap out of her kid strapped in a car seat - defenseless. She was caught on tape, dead-to-rights. Her ethnic background doesn't matter, she must be made accountable for actions, and to defend her actions based on an ethnic background is pig-headed. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:07 PM Ron: Once again, let me say that my own mother, whom I love, smacked me and my brother around a bit, and we are both useful and productive members of society far better off than people who are taken away by Child Protective Services and go through the foster care system. Though we may have some issues, I don't think the psychological effects of being smacked were serious. So it would be counter productive to over-react to this, IMHO. If physical damage is the issue, marks ARE important. It's true that "certain blows will not leave visible marks," but physical marks are one prime indicator of injury. Try to tell a doctor that the absence of marks is irrelevant and she'll laugh at you. It's very relevant, though it may not be the whole story. In any case, as you say, the examination showed that the child had NOT sustained any serious injury. If psychological damage is the issue, it would probably be far more damaging to take her away, unless we can show a pattern of abuse that goes beyond this one incident. Intent to harm was caught on tape? I must have missed that part--you must have one of those high definition TVs. In fact, I didn't think you could catch an intent on videotape. What was caught was a mom smacking around her child. Anything else, including supposed motives, intentions and, yes, even ethnic discrimination, is being read into it by outside interpreters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:54 PM There is a fairly large community of "travellers" living in North Augusta, S.C. To characterize this as an "ethnic" issue is the most outragious thing I have ever heard. I guess if Jeffrey Dahmer had been a traveller, his atrocities would have been pointed out and he would have been picked on because he was a traveller? give me a break! Hooray for Rick! You speak for me, and I hope anyone with an ounce of logic and reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:51 PM I'm Irish American and I have never heard of Irish travelers in America..which of course means diddly. I think we have as a society been far too tolerant, to the point of idolizing them,of the way some mothers treat their children. She's a woman, she can do no wrong; she is a mother and one step away from a saint syndrome. This mother and many others need to know they will be watched closely and forever, and somehow should be kept from having more children. And where is the father? I know it is hard to be the other parent when one is a rampager, but we have to hold them both accountable. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:32 PM Nerd, Again, marks are not crucial. Certain blows will not create visible marks. An examination is needed, and luckily the examination did not show any physical harm. Psychological may be another story, and in either case it is irrelevant. Intent to harm is what was caught on tape. Ron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Nerd Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM Whoa, just found this one. I'm in the Northeast, and no one ever mentioned she was a traveler on the news here, nor on CNN if I recall. While the Police may have "profiled" her and kept a close eye on her because she is a Traveler (if we are to believe Stilly River Stage about how it works in Texas) in the end she did the crime. It's like a thief complaining that the cops only caught him red-handed because they were looking at him due to his ethnicity. I feel sympathy for the honest members of the ethnicity who are unfairly scrutinized, but less bad for the criminals who get caught because of the scrutiny. On the flip side of this issue, though, I think the crucial point is that you could not see her hands in the video. In other words, we don't know if she was slapping, punching or shaking the child. That's why the question of "marks" was crucial. The seriousness of her offense was at stake. As it is, I don't think there is enough evidence for a child to be separated from her mother. Legally, Big Mick, you can't just say "this type of behaviour is not a one-time thing," you have to show that THIS woman has a pattern of abusing her child, and we simply have no evidence. Given that we don't know if she was slapping, punching or simply shaking, we'd be saying "any parent who ever slaps or shakes her child should have that child taken away." Under this rule, I would have been a foster child and probably had a much worse life than I've had. Thus, I can't support anything more serious than probation and an anger management class. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Art Thieme Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:22 PM I'm with Joe Offer on this. Never, ever knew there were any Irish Travellers living here in the U.S. After Joe, I'm with Mick and Rick also. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Another Guest Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM As the child of a mother who beat me in a very similar manner to that in the video, I must say that I did not have children for that reason nor have any of my siblings had children. My mother had a terrible "temper" and I had bruises under my arms all the time. I have a "temper" that I must watch all the time. The doctor says these are related to female hormones, but I don't know. Please help this little girl before she is scarred for life, if not physically then psychologically. The mother has her own issues and should be working on those rather than raising a child. I know from my friends who are parents that when you "loose it," you must step back and count to ten and count to ten again until you have calmed down enough to behave as a rational human being. HITTING A CHILD IS NEVER RIGHT! |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,pavane Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:51 PM inOBU, I accept that I am not familiar with the detailed ancestry of every family of 'gypsies', but understand that they originated in an area which we now call 'India'. I was trying to point out that some 'travellers' appear to have no 'Romany' roots, and are in the UK to follow their own trades, which include scrap metal dealing and apparently, in some cases, theft. 'Tinker' is an occupation rather than an ethnic division, although I agree that it has become a derogatory term in some circumstances, possibly because of the above. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: The Walrus at work Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM Slight thread slide (not quite a drift) Larry, "...We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput..."
Rajputs are from Rajistan, Rajistan is in India. Walrus |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:33 PM I still prefer to challenge the original predicate on which this thread is premised. Our good friend, Larry, is just plain off base on this. We certainly could have a long and interesting debate on the "tinkers", "gypsies", "travellers", etc. I also live in an area that experiences summertime visits by folks classified this way. I work as a union organizer in an industry that issues the annual alert to its cashiers about those who would run money changing scams on overworked cashiers. I believe I could probably argue both sides of this one very effectively. But this case isn't about Traveller descrimination, no matter how hard INOBU tries to make it that. It is about a child, an innocent, being the object of a parent's frustration. She got caught, and thank God she did. I am afraid, friend Larry, that you are guilty as charged with letting your personal cause and conviction cloud your sense of right and wrong. Rick hit it dead on the head. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Ron Olesko Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:32 PM Paranoia runs deep! What BS! To try to push the blame to the woman being a Traveler instead of a disturbed individual is ridiculous. If the claim that "Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth" were true, then that would explain why there are so many screwed up people in this world. Too many blows to the head! There is no excuse for hitting a child in that manner, and to confuse that with punishment is insane. No marks? Well that is a blessing. However if you check with physicians, you can sustain serious injuries without having a mark on a body. Victims of spousal abuse have shown that. I love it when the conspirists try to create issues that don't exist. It's always the USA trying to get rid of the little guy! Stick to chasing flying saucers! That said, I do feel for the woman. She obviously has a severe problem if she could treat her child in that manner. I hope she gets help and that the child will be out of harms way. As the saying goes, why is that you have to get a license to own a dog or a cat but anyone can be a parent? ROn |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: katlaughing Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:30 PM Some of the postings in this thread may be of interest to those who would like to know more about the Roma in America. Of particular interest might be Aine's postings, esp. her first. I offer this only as a matter of interest and education, not as any comment on the subject of this thread. I haven't seen the video and do not feel qualified to comment. kat |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:09 PM Guest Rich and Dee said
From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages. There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue. As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land. The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity. This strikes me as a rather cockeyed defense of the press and the police. Of course there was the issue of her being a Traveller. And since when does a "blue collar mid-West mom" constitute "no ethnicity?" It tells me that writer of the post is a blue collar white middle-class individual who sees all else as "other" and him or herself as ethnically at the center of the world. (It is from this position that Ugly Americans are born.) Am I the only one who remembers my mother standing conspicuously in the yard watching very carefully as the gypsy who had approached the house looking for work walked down the street, making sure that nothing was broken or stolen as payback for not accepting the offer of "work?" Gypsies and Travellers have been in the U.S. for ages. I expect today I'd do the same thing my mom did. Effective peddlar licenses have buffered a lot of urban dwellers over the years, but we lived out in the county where it was open season on homeowners when the gypsies came through. We are creatures of our environments, and while I'd like to say I'm accepting of groups unlike my own, I'm also cautious and have to say that today I still wouldn't turn my back on Travellers. Down here in Fort Worth the first thing out of the newscasters' mouths were the name "Gorman" and the term "Traveller" while the mother was being sought. Personally, I don't expect her to stick around for her day in court, she'll vanish. The store probably refused to take the jeans because they thought they were stolen. Perhaps they have some sort of "heads up" system for recognizing (by name) folks who regularly come in and try to sell stolen goods back to the store, but regardless of the outcome in the store, it was no reason to strike as she did a child strapped into a carseat. If people are cautious because of her affiliations with Travellers, it's because of her ability to vanish with the support of a close-knit culture that is haphazard about how they treat their children. She will vanish and her children will probably vanish with her. My mother was a social worker in Washington State, in Child Protective Services, and one group she was occasionally called about by area schools were the gypsy children. I don't recall the exact nature of the problems the schools reported, except that the children always vanished before the state had time to intervene in the way the schools wished. I wish I had a little more time to make this more sensible myself, but I've probably said enough. SRS (Still liberal, but nobody's fool)
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:57 PM I have nothing but praise for the intervenors. This case had nothing to do with discrimination, but with abuse of a child who could not fight back. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Kim C Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM She used the kid's head for a punching bag. I don't care where you're from, that's just not tolerable. The child could have been in serious danger. Thankfully, that isn't the case - but if the child had died, and no one had done anything, what then? |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: jimmyt Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:12 PM Hooray Rick, Big Mick and Jeri for telling it like it is! I completely share your views! I guess if Jeffrey Daumer had been a "traveller" he really wouldn't have been guilty, just picked on because of his ethnicity? |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Grab Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM Nope, neither of my parents ever hit me repeatedly round the head. Nor did my friends' parents do it to them, to my knowledge. Be honest, can you tell from the video footage that she is ethnically an Irish traveller? If so, how? Re "the story not reported", do you have anywhere that does tell this story? Or are all the newspapers, all the police, all the government officials and everyone else in this big conspiracy together? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jeri Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:48 AM I try to think how the authorities SHOULD have reacted to a video of a woman beating a kid vs. what DID happen, and I can't come up with any differences. Larry, you appear to saying child abuse is acceptable and that the authorities were wrong for intervening. I read this last night and had a hard time believing you would go to such lengths to fabricate an issue so as to allow yourself to see ethnic persecution here. I didn't know what to say. You're so concerned with the rights of a favorite group that you're dismissing other people's, and my impression is that kid just doesn't matter to you. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Big Mick Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:39 AM You beat me to it, Rick. I saw the video, then I saw the lame "I don't beat my kid, I am ashamed that I lost it this time" defense. My whole career has been a study in human behaviour. I am told that this woman was frustrated from not being able to get a cash refund in the store she was in. The next thing we see is a happy kid bouncing up to the car, the woman putting her in and looking around, then without warning she shakes and hits the child, while in an rage. The fact that she left no marks has absolutely no bearing whatever. The facts are that a wrong move in this state of mind could have resulted in the death of this child. This type of behaviour is not a one time thing. It is the result of a lifetime of not knowing how to deal with anger. And it is what results in the tragedies that we continually read about. When confronted with things that these folks can't control, they strike out at the most vulnerable thing they can. Kids, sometimes spouses, whatever. Taking this child out of her control is the correct thing to do. She must earn her way back. This has nothing to do with discrimination against any group. It is about saving a child. Period. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Rick Fielding Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:27 AM Absolute Total Bull Crap Larry. Shame on you! I saw that video and it almost made me sick to my stomach. If that is how kids are normally disciplined, then what a fucking abnormal upbringing I had. You've let your ideology completely colour your common sense. Cheers (or I'll go upside your head) Rick |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM I think that Rich said it all. To claim that the woman was sought after because of prejudice and discrimination because she is an Irish Traveller makes zero sense. How can you discriminate against people when you've never even heard of the term, and the person admits that she abused her child? When I raised my two sons, they got a good whack on the rear end a few times to know that I was serious, but I drew the line at smacking them in the head. I hurt their pride more than their body. And when they needed discipline, they never got it in public. I wanted to correct them, not humiliate them. But they knew that when I took them out of a store, they were going to get it. It rarely took even a smack on the rump to straighten them out. All it took was "that look." Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,Gimme a break Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:26 AM According to InOBU, Madlyne Toogood is being "prociscuted" becuase she is an "Irish Traveller." None of the news reports I've seen or read have mentioned any ethnicity. When I saw and heard her speak on TV, I didn't hear any accent that would make me think she's anything other than American. And it shouldn't make any difference anyway. Madlyne Toogood is being prosecuted because she violently abused her child and was caught on video tape doing it. Madlyne Toogood's lawyer has stated that the tape didn't lie and that he expects her to change her plea to guilty. Madlyne Toogood herself has admitted her wrongdoing. InOBU's idiotic and irrational defence of this child beater is shameful. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: mack/misophist Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM I have known Romany in the US. If I hadn't been told I would never have known they were Romany. As for Travellers, that sounds almost like a matter of opinion; kind of like whether some one from Louisiana is black or white. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:58 AM I dunno, Larry. I guess I'd have to say that I haven't even been aware of the existence of Travellers in the United States, and I'd guess that most Americans have about the same lack of experience. Is that discrimination? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Teribus Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM InOBU, I would like to draw your attention to the following quote from Ard Mhacha
"My contention is that the idea of genocide had taken firm root in Irish political consciousness long before Mitchell published his most influential works on the subject. And it is also my contention that while genocide was not committed, what happened during and as a result of the clearances had the look of genocide to a great many Irish contemporaries. Ard Mhacha."
You state - "Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... " I think what Ard Mhacha says is correct and without doubt provides the most accurate and concise summation on the subject I have ever seen written. Your statement on the otherhand is false, inflamatory and myth perpetuating.
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,rich_and_dee Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM As I understand it, the video was shown to the police, who showed the video to a doctor, who reasoned the child could have sustained some serious injuries. Watching the tape you can't really tell if she's open-handedly swatting the kid or punching the bejeesus out of her. The police released the video to news agencies not to necessarily arrest the woman (she was never arrested) but to locate the child to determine whether the child was seriously injured. At no time during the search for the woman was there any mention of her ethnicity. She was the first to say she felt she'd been hunted down because she's an Irish Traveler. I imagine much of the country immediately shrugged their shoulders and said "What the heck is a traveller". From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages. There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue. As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land. The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity. I know we've all heard the extreme cases where a child fell off a swingset and the State intervened and accused the parents of abuse. It's awful. In this instance, it looks like everyone kept the best interests of the family in mind and were forced by good sense and responsibility to locate this woman and her child to assure the child's safety. I say give the mom an anger management class and set them on their way. Rich |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:29 AM OH! As to Pavees being Romani... yes and no. I dissagree with Thomas Acton, the British historian, but, my theory is endorced by about three quarters of serrious Roma historians and sociologists... Acton believes the communities are completely separate in origion, I hope I am not misstating his views, if I am I applogise, I however, believe that seasonaly nomadic north Irish (for the most part) would travel for centuries to Scotland, where they would interact with Romanichales (Roma who came to England in the 13th century) intermarry, and were culturealy influenced. As a result, not only is there a conection by marriage there are lingusitic as well as cultural conections. There are many words, like Beor, for woman, which follow the same convention by which Gaelic words were converted into Scelta (the language of Travellers) where the vowles are interchanged, so the Romani word Bori for Bride, becomes Beor, or context of words changes, such as Noosh for dog, an animal that is part of the camp, is called a word almost identical to the Romani word Manoosh, fella or guy, calling your dog, hey manush, hey fella, becomes noosh. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:20 AM Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... They are not on the dole here, but have been gainfully employed since they were instrumental in care of horses during the Civil War. They are much more of a cultureal isolate in the US, and are generally small contractors and painters. "TINKERS!" Same on you! Tinkers are (like Kalderash or Coppersmith Roma - eastern European Gypsies) Travellers or Pavees who work mettal, like the "Tinker Devlins" the family of Buradette Develin McAlsiky. Not every Pavee is a Tinker, which has become a durogatory term for Travellers. We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput. As to Ms. Toogood's identity, in the US, police and store security have racist guides to "what to do when Gypsies come to town, into stores etc..." We won a civil rights case to that effect in the North East. The fact is that I agree that slapping (her hand was open, did not punch the child) a child is not right, I don't agree with it... but the aftermath is clearly influenced by her ethnicity. Her sister was arrested, for not turning her in, the press has been using this as proof of the moral degridation of Travellers, when studdies show in the US there is much less child abuse in that community than the general population, her relitives have been threatened with being run out of towns in which they live, but this is not the story reported... All the best, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: pavane Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM Here in the UK we have both Romany and Travellers. Romany/true gypsies are believed to the descendants of Indian travelling musicians, and speak a language related to Hindi. Many travellers are not Romany but Irish 'tinkers', who seem to have the right to come to the UK, be provided at our expense with council-run sites and cash benefits, and then terrorise those who are subsidising them.
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Keevan6 Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:03 AM InOBU.....as an American, I try to be as open minded as I can about the concerns and feelings of our bretheren and compatriots from other countries. So I ask you to try to keep in mind(hopefully with an open heart) not to judge all of us Americans by what you see and hear from our government, and press. The American government and press have (in my opinion) formed themselves into some kind of beast of their own devising, and they often do not agree with most of the American people. It seems to me lately, that the government and the presses are hell bent on pursuing their own agendas, and do not care what many Americans think or feel. Oh they make a big show of pretending to be concerned about the needs of the many, but in reality they ultimately do what they think is "good for the people" instead of putting it to a vote of the people. Instead of a Democracy "for the people, by the people.", it has sorta warped itself into "for the government, by the government." |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: mack/misophist Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:22 AM My mother had an uncontrollable temper and so I was an 'abused' child. I don't think it has made me any more violent as an adult. Even though I must admit that, at the age of 15, I came within an inch of killing her. But that was self protection. And furthermore, although she was always excessive and violent, there were many times when I deserved SOME kind of punishment. The majority of people who ever lived had corporeal punishment as children. Most of them did OK. One last point, psychology is not and CANNOT EVER BE a science as practiced today. Remember, these are the ones who insisted 'recovered memory syndrome' was real. And falsely sent dozens of people to prison; the ones who murdered a little girl 'rebirthing' her. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: NicoleC Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:07 AM I think there's a difference between a spanking and a beating. Whacking your kid with an open hand while s/he bends over the bed is hardly abuse; a scraped knee hurts more. From what I saw of the videotape, that wasn't in the "spanking" category. Nor did I have any clue she was anything but born American when I saw her interviewed -- I think the cry of discrimination in unwarranted here. She's not wearing an "ethnic" sign. I still haven't figured out what the kid's transgression was supposed to be. But with no prior evidence of abuse, anger management classes are probably the most fair and positive action to take. Unfortunately, like all Mom's who get caught in the public eye being human, she is likely to pay a stiff price, and the child as well. CPS will be under pressure to remove the kids from their "unfit" mother, whether she is or not. A father beats his kids bloody and senseless and the police hardly respond to the 911 call. Mom beats her kids once and it's a sign of how the modern family is falling apart. (Or so the spin went on the news here.) |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM When in Rome do as the Romans do.
When in Ireland, on Good Friday, don't expect to drink in a pub.
When in American, don't beat your child in public.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Donuel Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM What is new about gypsies? What is new to me is the name travelers which I caught wind of first in Boston but have not heard of again till now. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DougR Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:14 AM Larry: I don't think they took into account the ladie's national origin. Surely you agree that just viewing that tape is pretty damaging to the lady I think. Sorcha: I guess it's a good thing there were no hidden cameras when our kids were little. I never abused them, but didn't hesitate to give them a swat if the misbehaved. They all three are adults now, and none the worse for it. No question about it though, any parent today that disciplines their child in public is living dangerously. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:59 PM Hey, Larry: Do you think when they looked at the video tape they said, "Hey, she's Irish, let's get her?" That is beyond my imagination. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: DonMeixner Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:48 PM Larry, I have to step away from this one. Any security people of any stripe, viewing that tape, would go after this woman. It does her no good to go around saying she is guilty of beating her child on national TV even tho' the Dr. is saying no marks are evident. ( Altho' it was unclear what his answer ment, Marks from this beating or marks from presumed previous beatings) AS to procecution only because they are Travellers? I dunno.... I'll steo away until I have a lot more information than what is out there now. Don |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM Mine did, Gypsy. What I whacked them for they never did again. Stopped throwing tantrums in public too. Ask either of them if they were "abused" and I'll bet they say no. |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Gypsy Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:42 PM WEeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllll..........I agree that we have gone too far in the other direction. But having known many people who were abused as children, i almost think it is better to err on the side of caution. And, i have never seen a child behave better by being struck. Usually exacerbates the situation..... |
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Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: Sorcha Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:34 PM Ahhhh, I did wonder, Lorcan. Actually, with the name TooGood, I thought she was probably American Indian but what you say makes sense too. I don't know how many wooden spoons I broke over Bubba's butt, but it was several. I also remember whacking his butt in public more than once, but I never ever hit either one of them anywhere but on the butt. Never shook them either. Never beat them when they were strapped down and couldn't run away (which I did let them do--enuf is enuf.) The last time I smacked either one of them was when each was about 6. One is 24 now, the other 17. As usual with most things I am of two minds about corporal punishment..........(I am a Libra after all) |
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Subject: Traveller Discrimination in the USA From: InOBU Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:27 PM Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth. Fact is, that she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States, under the feet of the Statue of Liberty after the welcome to the poor, hungry and tiered, there is a wee sign that says no dogs or Gypsies... and it is still bloody there. Call your local press and ask why in a reported child abuse case, where there was no abuse, is the news interviewing cops from fraud units? It is because after the crime of driving while Black, the next most prosicuted crime, is the crime of a Rom, or Pave or Romanichale breathing the air of a free nation. Larry |