BS: Traveller Discrimination in the USA

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:58 AM

I dunno, Larry. I guess I'd have to say that I haven't even been aware of the existence of Travellers in the United States, and I'd guess that most Americans have about the same lack of experience. Is that discrimination?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM

InOBU, I would like to draw your attention to the following quote from Ard Mhacha

"My contention is that the idea of genocide had taken firm root in Irish political consciousness long before Mitchell published his most influential works on the subject. And it is also my contention that while genocide was not committed, what happened during and as a result of the clearances had the look of genocide to a great many Irish contemporaries. Ard Mhacha."

You state - "Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... "

I think what Ard Mhacha says is correct and without doubt provides the most accurate and concise summation on the subject I have ever seen written. Your statement on the otherhand is false, inflamatory and myth perpetuating.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,rich_and_dee
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:25 AM

As I understand it, the video was shown to the police, who showed the video to a doctor, who reasoned the child could have sustained some serious injuries. Watching the tape you can't really tell if she's open-handedly swatting the kid or punching the bejeesus out of her.

The police released the video to news agencies not to necessarily arrest the woman (she was never arrested) but to locate the child to determine whether the child was seriously injured.

At no time during the search for the woman was there any mention of her ethnicity. She was the first to say she felt she'd been hunted down because she's an Irish Traveler. I imagine much of the country immediately shrugged their shoulders and said "What the heck is a traveller".

From what has been broadcast, the mom was upset after unsuccessfully trying to return a pair of jeans. Her daughter had wandered away from her and been paged twice and had been caught taking toys out of packages.

There has been no issue of her being a Traveller and I suspect there can be no issue.

As for her family, it is illegal to hamper a police investigation, which is what her family did by effectively hiding her for a weekend. As citizens of the USA, they have to abide by the law of the land.

The mom has a heavy Chicago accent. She looks like a blue-collar mid-West mom with no trace of ethnicity.

I know we've all heard the extreme cases where a child fell off a swingset and the State intervened and accused the parents of abuse. It's awful. In this instance, it looks like everyone kept the best interests of the family in mind and were forced by good sense and responsibility to locate this woman and her child to assure the child's safety.

I say give the mom an anger management class and set them on their way.

Rich

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:29 AM

OH! As to Pavees being Romani... yes and no. I dissagree with Thomas Acton, the British historian, but, my theory is endorced by about three quarters of serrious Roma historians and sociologists... Acton believes the communities are completely separate in origion, I hope I am not misstating his views, if I am I applogise, I however, believe that seasonaly nomadic north Irish (for the most part) would travel for centuries to Scotland, where they would interact with Romanichales (Roma who came to England in the 13th century) intermarry, and were culturealy influenced. As a result, not only is there a conection by marriage there are lingusitic as well as cultural conections. There are many words, like Beor, for woman, which follow the same convention by which Gaelic words were converted into Scelta (the language of Travellers) where the vowles are interchanged, so the Romani word Bori for Bride, becomes Beor, or context of words changes, such as Noosh for dog, an animal that is part of the camp, is called a word almost identical to the Romani word Manoosh, fella or guy, calling your dog, hey manush, hey fella, becomes noosh. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:20 AM

Well, I see there are some misconceptions here, first of all Pavane, Irish Travellers came to the us in the terror years of the Irish Famine, which your government used as a tool of genocide in our nation... They are not on the dole here, but have been gainfully employed since they were instrumental in care of horses during the Civil War. They are much more of a cultureal isolate in the US, and are generally small contractors and painters. "TINKERS!" Same on you! Tinkers are (like Kalderash or Coppersmith Roma - eastern European Gypsies) Travellers or Pavees who work mettal, like the "Tinker Devlins" the family of Buradette Develin McAlsiky. Not every Pavee is a Tinker, which has become a durogatory term for Travellers.
We Roma were not travelling Indian musicians, lingustics proves we (my mother is half Lovari) were Rajaput.
As to Ms. Toogood's identity, in the US, police and store security have racist guides to "what to do when Gypsies come to town, into stores etc..." We won a civil rights case to that effect in the North East. The fact is that I agree that slapping (her hand was open, did not punch the child) a child is not right, I don't agree with it... but the aftermath is clearly influenced by her ethnicity. Her sister was arrested, for not turning her in, the press has been using this as proof of the moral degridation of Travellers, when studdies show in the US there is much less child abuse in that community than the general population, her relitives have been threatened with being run out of towns in which they live, but this is not the story reported... All the best, Larry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM

Here in the UK we have both Romany and Travellers. Romany/true gypsies are believed to the descendants of Indian travelling musicians, and speak a language related to Hindi.

Many travellers are not Romany but Irish 'tinkers', who seem to have the right to come to the UK, be provided at our expense with council-run sites and cash benefits, and then terrorise those who are subsidising them.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Keevan6
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:03 AM

InOBU.....as an American, I try to be as open minded as I can about the concerns and feelings of our bretheren and compatriots from other countries. So I ask you to try to keep in mind(hopefully with an open heart) not to judge all of us Americans by what you see and hear from our government, and press. The American government and press have (in my opinion) formed themselves into some kind of beast of their own devising, and they often do not agree with most of the American people. It seems to me lately, that the government and the presses are hell bent on pursuing their own agendas, and do not care what many Americans think or feel. Oh they make a big show of pretending to be concerned about the needs of the many, but in reality they ultimately do what they think is "good for the people" instead of putting it to a vote of the people. Instead of a Democracy "for the people, by the people.", it has sorta warped itself into "for the government, by the government."

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:22 AM

My mother had an uncontrollable temper and so I was an 'abused' child. I don't think it has made me any more violent as an adult. Even though I must admit that, at the age of 15, I came within an inch of killing her. But that was self protection. And furthermore, although she was always excessive and violent, there were many times when I deserved SOME kind of punishment. The majority of people who ever lived had corporeal punishment as children. Most of them did OK. One last point, psychology is not and CANNOT EVER BE a science as practiced today. Remember, these are the ones who insisted 'recovered memory syndrome' was real. And falsely sent dozens of people to prison; the ones who murdered a little girl 'rebirthing' her.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:07 AM

I think there's a difference between a spanking and a beating. Whacking your kid with an open hand while s/he bends over the bed is hardly abuse; a scraped knee hurts more.

From what I saw of the videotape, that wasn't in the "spanking" category. Nor did I have any clue she was anything but born American when I saw her interviewed -- I think the cry of discrimination in unwarranted here. She's not wearing an "ethnic" sign.

I still haven't figured out what the kid's transgression was supposed to be. But with no prior evidence of abuse, anger management classes are probably the most fair and positive action to take. Unfortunately, like all Mom's who get caught in the public eye being human, she is likely to pay a stiff price, and the child as well. CPS will be under pressure to remove the kids from their "unfit" mother, whether she is or not.

A father beats his kids bloody and senseless and the police hardly respond to the 911 call. Mom beats her kids once and it's a sign of how the modern family is falling apart. (Or so the spin went on the news here.)

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

When in Ireland, on Good Friday, don't expect to drink in a pub.

When in American, don't beat your child in public.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:17 AM

What is new about gypsies? What is new to me is the name travelers which I caught wind of first in Boston but have not heard of again till now.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:14 AM

Larry: I don't think they took into account the ladie's national origin. Surely you agree that just viewing that tape is pretty damaging to the lady I think.

Sorcha: I guess it's a good thing there were no hidden cameras when our kids were little. I never abused them, but didn't hesitate to give them a swat if the misbehaved. They all three are adults now, and none the worse for it.

No question about it though, any parent today that disciplines their child in public is living dangerously.

DougR

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:59 PM

Hey, Larry: Do you think when they looked at the video tape they said, "Hey, she's Irish, let's get her?" That is beyond my imagination.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:48 PM

Larry,

I have to step away from this one. Any security people of any stripe, viewing that tape, would go after this woman. It does her no good to go around saying she is guilty of beating her child on national TV even tho' the Dr. is saying no marks are evident. ( Altho' it was unclear what his answer ment, Marks from this beating or marks from presumed previous beatings) AS to procecution only because they are Travellers? I dunno....

I'll steo away until I have a lot more information than what is out there now.

Don

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM

Mine did, Gypsy. What I whacked them for they never did again. Stopped throwing tantrums in public too. Ask either of them if they were "abused" and I'll bet they say no.

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Gypsy
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:42 PM

WEeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllll..........I agree that we have gone too far in the other direction. But having known many people who were abused as children, i almost think it is better to err on the side of caution. And, i have never seen a child behave better by being struck. Usually exacerbates the situation.....

Subject: RE: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:34 PM

Ahhhh, I did wonder, Lorcan. Actually, with the name TooGood, I thought she was probably American Indian but what you say makes sense too. I don't know how many wooden spoons I broke over Bubba's butt, but it was several. I also remember whacking his butt in public more than once, but I never ever hit either one of them anywhere but on the butt. Never shook them either. Never beat them when they were strapped down and couldn't run away (which I did let them do--enuf is enuf.) The last time I smacked either one of them was when each was about 6. One is 24 now, the other 17.

As usual with most things I am of two minds about corporal punishment..........(I am a Libra after all)

Subject: Traveller Discrimination in the USA
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:27 PM

Most anyone who can look me in the eye and say their mom did not once loose it and swat you as Madlyne Toogood did her daughter (leaving no mark by the way...) well a lot of you would be not telling the truth. Fact is, that she is being prociscuted for the crime of being an Irish Traveller in the United States, under the feet of the Statue of Liberty after the welcome to the poor, hungry and tiered, there is a wee sign that says no dogs or Gypsies... and it is still bloody there. Call your local press and ask why in a reported child abuse case, where there was no abuse, is the news interviewing cops from fraud units? It is because after the crime of driving while Black, the next most prosicuted crime, is the crime of a Rom, or Pave or Romanichale breathing the air of a free nation. Larry