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Help with ABC required

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belfast 24 Sep 02 - 09:53 AM
MudGuard 24 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM
Joe Offer 24 Sep 02 - 10:06 AM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM
Sorcha 24 Sep 02 - 10:16 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 10:20 AM
MudGuard 24 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 10:37 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 10:56 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 11:01 AM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,MCP 24 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Jon W. 24 Sep 02 - 11:20 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 11:21 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM
GUEST,Jon W. 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Sep 02 - 11:31 AM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Sep 02 - 11:35 AM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 11:49 AM
Pied Piper 24 Sep 02 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 24 Sep 02 - 12:03 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 12:15 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 12:19 PM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 12:26 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 12:32 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 12:33 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 12:46 PM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM
DMcG 24 Sep 02 - 01:06 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,pavane 24 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,pavane 24 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM
belfast 24 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM
Mark Clark 24 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM
MMario 24 Sep 02 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 24 Sep 02 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 25 Sep 02 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,pavane 25 Sep 02 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,pavane 25 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM
MMario 25 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,pavane 26 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM
Pied Piper 26 Sep 02 - 08:03 AM
pavane 27 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM
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Subject: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 09:53 AM

I'm trying to get the hang of ABC music notation. There is a song, "The Shipyard Slips", mentioned in another thread. This is it I've tried to put the melody into ABC. Well, a skeleton of the melody. For simplicity's sake I've run the verse right into the chorus.

So can anyone tell me if this is right? I don't mean does is it the right tune, I mean does it even soundlike a tune?

Here goes

T:The Shipyard Slips
M:4/4
K:C
E/D/|CEG>c|BdcB/C/|dB/d/cA/A/|G/cE/DE/D/| CEG>c|Bdce/d/|cAGE/E/|D/ED/CE/D/| CEGc/c/|cB/c/de/d/|cA>cA|GcE/D/E/D/| CEG>c|cB/c/de/d/|cAG/c/c/E/|E/D


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM

I'm not an ABC expert, but all the slashes seem suspicious.
I usually use them when I want to have a note that is half or quarter of the length of the default note, e.g.

E/2

but not

E/

Or is E/ shorthand for E/2 ?

Also, the measurements look suspicious (but this might be for the E/ vs. E/2 business...)

Don't have appropriate software here, so can't say whether it sounds like a tune...




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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:06 AM

Hi, Belfast - be sure to look at the Mudcat ABC Tune Guide, a nice piece of work by John in Brisbane.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM

I hope you get the hang of it - because that is one of the "missing tunes"


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:16 AM

ABC2Win said "Error" but finally managed to translate it. Didn't look like music, just 2 staff lines and a bunch of weird symbols including a capital Q........I'll mess with it and see what happens.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM

That was indeed the thread that got me started on this ABCbut when I tried to find it again I failed - I always have a problem with search engines. But, thanks, I'll make a note of it. Elsewhere I found another guide - and I've mislaid that address, contained the name "walshaw", I've got it here somewhere.

As for the E/ or E/2, if I undersood it rightly either is acceptable. Mind you, that's a big "if".


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:20 AM

And MMario thank you. I recall it was a comment by you on the shipyard slips thread that started me down this trail.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM

Yes, the Guide given by Joe (which I know - I have printed it - but it is at home) says E/ or E/2 are both acceptable.
So just ignore my comments above...


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:37 AM

belfast - if you are on a pc - you might want to try noteworthy composer - it's simple enough even I can do it - and I don't read music!!


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:56 AM

Just realised there's a missing header for the default note which is a crothcet/quarter note. I think that should be L:1/4. Perhaps that's optional but also the "X:" which I suspect is not.

Where would I find noteworthy composer, bearing in mind that this is not even my PC?

This may be a problem that I haven't considered. The two little notes at the beginning of the tune (anacrusis is, I think, the correct musical term), they don't make up a full bar. I wonder of this causes a problem.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:01 AM

I've just realised that my question about Noteworthy is answered in the thread referred to by Joe Offer.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:07 AM

< a href=http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/>noteworthy composer


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM

I don't know the tune, but with the exception of the missing X header as noted by Belfast above, the ABC is fine (the L header defaults)
    X:1

at the start will make the ABC legal.

From a musical point of view I suspect that in Bar 2 it was meant to end B/c/ not B/C/ as you have. Also, the last bar should add up to 3 1/4 notes to complement the 1/4 pickup bar, so either the final D should be longer (D/-D2 instead of D)or you need to add some rests there (z/-z).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,Jon W.
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:20 AM


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:21 AM

Thanks again. And one of the things I learned at this wonderful site was how to do a blue clicky< a href=http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/>noteworthy composer


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM

< a href=http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/>noteworthy composer Or perhaps not


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,Jon W.
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM

If you put the line

X:1

in the notation, it will be legal. I got it to look okay in ABC2Win and play in ABCmus.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM

belfast:

The Walshaw page you looked at previously is probably The ABC Page.

http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/

We've had complaints about anacrusis (pickup notes) measures from persons using both ABC and Noteworthy, and I'm not sure whether it's one or both of the programs that doesn't handle them. The simple "out" is to pad the measure with leading rests to make it "full."

John


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM

I think I'm getting somewhere (although I seem to have forgetten how to do the blue clicky thing). Ive just been looking at some other sites and I find that I'm alble to play a few tunes from screen on my guitar. Very uncomfortable and very slowly.

Jon W I'm going to try reposting it with your amendment to see if it works for anyone else.

x:1
T:The Shipyard Slips
M:4/4
K:C
E/D/|CEG>c|BdcB/C/|dB/d/cA/A/|G/cE/DE/D/| CEG>c|Bdce/d/|cAGE/E/|D/ED/CE/D/| CEGc/c/|cB/c/de/d/|cA>cA|GcE/D/E/D/| CEG>c|cB/c/de/d/|cAG/c/c/E/|E/D


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:31 AM

ABC2Win is pretty much obsolete, and doesn't recognise a lot of the newer ABC standards, such as w: and W: for lyrics. I've stopped using it. You can test abcs at Concertina.net, here:

ABC Convert-A-Matic

Most programs that convert from midi to abc seem to make mistakes. They are a good way of learning the basics (I've been using TablEdit's export function, but the results are often inaccurate and need thorough editing) but it's best to work towards doing them by hand. Since Noteworthy, in my limited experience, can't handle an accurate export to midi, I doubt if it does much better with abc.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM

noteworthy composer


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:35 AM

Blue clicky is missing the closing </a>.

Type: <a href=http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/>noteworthy composer</a>

John


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:49 AM

I,'m trying this again with the amenendments mentioned by guest mcp.I'm getting more infornation here than I can absorb at the minute. But mcp was right about bar 2 and the final bar. I think I've fixed it.

X:1
T:The Shipyard Slips
M:4/4
K:C
E/D/|CEG>c|BdcB/c/|dB/d/cA/A/|G/cE/DE/D/| CEG>c|Bdce/d/|cAGE/E/|D/ED/CE/D/| CEGc/c/|cB/c/de/d/|cA>cA|GcE/D/E/D/| CEG>c|cB/c/de/d/|cAG/c/c/E/|E/D2


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:02 PM

I use "Melody assistant" (shareware available on the ABC home page, though you'll have to send the extortionate registration fee of $15), it imports and exports ABC but I've only used it to convert to midi and score which it handles with no problems. I'll try exporting ABC files tonight and let you know how it goes. It's a great program, and a snip at the price. All the best PP


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:03 PM

I've been reading but...

I think Malcolm has got it wrong with his assessment of Noteworthy.

I can't eplain NWC having problems converting to a MIDI but MIDI to abc is always likely to cause problems. The root of the problem is probably best explained by anahata here.

I don't know the Notworthy format but I suspect it would, like abc be geared around musical notation rather than musical performance and as such, I would guess (it's outside my programming experience) reliable conversions between the 2 formats should be quite possible.

The abc/nwc conversion routine some of us use is 3rd party product btw.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:09 PM

Yipee! I think I've cracked it. At least I submitted that last version to ABC covert-a-matic and what appeared on the screen in conventian notation seems to be exactly like my own. I'm now feeling quite pleased with myself. Thank you (again), Malcolm Douglas.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:15 PM

okay - now - is that chorus first or verse first?


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:19 PM

Another question (naturally). I did a playback on the thingy (technical terminology). The right melody but far too quick. The whole bit I put in should last about 30 seconds. If my mathematics works this means that each bar should be about 2 seconds. And a crotchet/quarternote is about 1/2 seconds. Is there a header that deals with that?


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:26 PM

Q:120


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:32 PM

The verse is first eight bars, the chorus is the second eight bars. And the chorus is sung after every second verse (at least that's how I do it). And there's a bar or two between verse and chorus.

I'm relieved that I made my first attempt at this stuff using the key of Cmaj with no accidentals. A few accidents, mind you)


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:33 PM

The verse is first eight bars, the chorus is the second eight bars. And the chorus is sung after every second verse (at least that's how I do it). And there's a bar or two between verse and chorus.

I'm relieved that I made my first attempt at this stuff using the key of Cmaj with no accidentals. A few accidents, mind you.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:46 PM

Right I've done it again with the timing (Q:120) inserted.I think that's as close as I'm ever going to get it. There are notes that anyone would hold a little bit longer that actually written but I've even forgotten the name of the conventional symbol (an inverted semi-circle with a dot in the centre) and I don't think I will ever learn it for ABC. Anyway here's what I submitted last to that converter program

X:1
T:The Shipyard Slips
M:4/4
Q:120
K:C
E/D/|CEG>c|BdcB/c/|dB/d/cA/A/|G/cE/DE/D/| CEG>c|Bdce/d/|cAGE/E/|D/ED/CE/D/| CEGc/c/|cB/c/de/d/|cA>cA|GcE/D/E/D/| CEG>c|cB/c/de/d/|cAG/c/c/E/|E/D2


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM

looks good to me. Thank you for the first new contribution to the Great tune search Spring 2002 edition!

and this guy claims to be a techno-phobe!


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:06 PM

I've even forgotten the name of the conventional symbol (an inverted semi-circle with a dot in the centre) and I don't think I will ever learn it for ABC

A capital H before the right note seems to do it!


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

Aha... H. Thanks, Dave.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:13 PM

fermata? is that the name of the thingie?


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM

You could try my shareware program, HARMONY, which will import most abc (and MIDI melodies), and also puts chords to them if you want. Does lots of other things too!

Download is at www.greenhedges.com


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:37 PM

Oh, yes, and HARMONY does not have too much trouble importing simple MIDI (See anahata link above) as it quantizes the file as it imports it into it's native format. It can then export to abc as normal.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: belfast
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM

Fermata. That is indeed the word. And I feel as though I have just solved Fermata's Last Theorem.

Needless to say, there's something now quite right. I think it's bar 11 where I have put in an unnecessary dotted note. But I've gone brain dead.

Thank you all for your patience and your help. I've learned a lot more than I thought possible.If I post no more messages here for a couple of days it's not through lack of gratitude. It's through lack of opportunity and the need to earn a couple of shillings.
Go raibh mile maith agaibh
Thanks a million.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM

Just installed an unregistered trial of pavane's Harmony program. I'd downloaded a beta version when he first announced it's availability but that was on a different computer. I pasted belfast's original ABC code, from the top of this thread, into Harmony's ABC editor and viola [sic], Harmony played the tune using MIDI and displayed it as music without any editing or tweaking whatsoever.

Harmony was very easy to use and I liked that fact that each tool/mode pops up a new window. I din't have to read any help or tutorial, I just selected the obvious menu choices and it worked. Good on ya, pavane.

I haven't tried any other functions yet but I'm starting to wonder whether Harmony plus LilyPond (for beautification and inclusion with text) will do all the music editing and publishing I may ever need. I don't use electronic instruments and keep a MIDI keyboard only for input to Finale.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:15 PM

yes - harmony is pretty impressive.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:37 PM

I must admit I downloaded an earlier version of Harmony and didn't like it at all. Given the comments here, I will give it another try.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 12:21 AM

Well I've downloaded...

I don't find the user interface easy but maybe that's just me and I can't be too critical as Pavane is doing something I wouldn't even have a clue where to be begin with...

Pavane, one MIDI I tried is one you may like to look at. It's one of The Flowing Tide (great tune BTW) I tried to knock up using Cakewalk the other day. There is a copy here.

What happens here is quite weird. The first time I open your program and load this file I get some message about polyphonic voices (whatever that means) and if I go to score, and play it, it is not as per MIDI but I guess I was warned...

If I then close the score, discard changes and re-open it, I don't get a warning but when I open the score I get a different version of the tune. Again, sadly not quite as per the MIDI.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 03:10 AM

Jon and others,

HARMONY requires a simple melody line in order to add chords. If it find overlapping notes on any MIDI channel (i.e. polyphonic voice), then it will give a warning and omit one of the two notes.

It CAN cope with files with several tracks (voices), provided none of them contain such overlaps.

Overlapping notes can easily occur by accident when playing a tune on a keyboard. (Also,I would think that if you play an accompaniment, all notes would be sent to the same MIDI channel - is that right?)

On Cakewalk, you will probably find, if you use the piano-roll view, that one note starts before another has finished. Quantizing the track may fix the problem.

I am not sure why you got a different result on the second try. It should have done exactly the same thing. I will try loading the file when I am home at the weekend (time permitting)

In the next version, the user interface is simplified, partly as a result of introducing a multi-document interface (MDI) style, so that you can open more than one tune at a time.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM

Just had another thought on abc. Would it be useful to have a 'new abc tune' form (in HARMONY) where you just fill in the blanks (from dropdowns) for the header information like key, meter and so on?

You would only need to type the notes then, and it would be more likely to be correct.

Anyone think it would be a good idea?


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: MMario
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM

sounds good to me!


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM

OK, but may not be in the next version! I am still struggling to improve existing functions.

You wouldn't believe how much work goes into what seems a simple process, such as making a tune into a round!


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:03 AM

Hallo Again Belfast. In my last post on this thread I said I would try "Melody Assistant" at exporting ABC Files; well it worked fine.
The problem with harmony for me, is the Ugly scores it prints. Perhaps this could be rectified? All the best PP.


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Subject: RE: Help with ABC required
From: pavane
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM

Sorry, Pied Piper, HARMONY is not intended to be a scoring package. The score facility is only for editing and checking the tunes, and I have neither the time nor the incentive to improve it (as few people are registering).

HARMONY is intended mainly to provide value added functions which are not found elsewhere. (Add chords, COnvert to a round, add 3rds, etc)

Better to import the MIDI or abc to a specialist scoring package! But thanks anyway.


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