Is this acceptable when busking?

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 07:41 PM

iAGREE WITH STORMY

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:46 PM

I am of the opinion it is not acceptable. My reply would be along the lines of "Take a flying leap to yourself." I don't need some asshole from anywhere telling me what I should pay to a hat for a street performance.

However, as with Eliza, I too buy food or coffee for hungry people.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM

I try to be generous to anyone on the street asking for a contribution. But I'm afraid £5 is beyond my resources. To me that's quite a lot of money. I give £1 or £2 maximum. But I do get a cup of hot coffee and/or some sandwiches to give if a person looks cold or hungry!

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Stormy Normy
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

I've been a busker for 39 years, i've been booked and payed by countless "town halls" to do my job which is,making music AND accepting drops in the hat, but to demand a set amount from the public is out of order they belong OFF THE STREET!!.....The buskers code say's you don't ask for money, that's called begging in my book....

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Stewart
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 01:28 PM

Being a paid busker is an oxymoron. It is not what busking is about. Artis the Spoonman is a long-time successful busker in Seattle's Pike Place Market. Here is what he says about the profession of busking - reprinted from his column in the NW HOOT. Copyright, 2009, Artis the Spoonman.

"Busking is the most admirable, honourable, respectable, integrated and difficult form of entertainment there is. Busking has no cover charge, no minimum drink, no ethnic, sex, age, religious, or economic segregation and there is no 'middle man' restricting material. Busking is presented to everyone, whether they slept under a bridge or on the 40th floor the night before. Busking is performed for fair exchange, i.e., the audience pays what they determine applicable, after having viewed and enjoyed the show, if they care to contribute at all. However, as essential as the money is, the first contribution an audience member makes is when they stop."

"Keep in mind; before becoming an audience, a citizen has already predetermined a destination, if only strolling. There is no intention to see a show. We are going from point A to point B and along the way there's an act that attracts our attention. Stopping to listen is, straight up, a 100% compliment and contribution to the show. To remain is an addition to the 100%. To applaud is a further addition, to tip is yet again an increased contribution, and to talk of the act later that day, or the next, is an astounding plus from the first determination to stop while bound elsewhere. People often arrive late to work deliberately, miss appointments intentionally, skip classes at schools, colleges, and universities, and some actually change their whole lifestyle and vocational direction. Those are massive compliments and effects contributed to busking."

"The act can receive as little as nothing, two tips (a $1 bill and a dime), $100 bills, $50 checks, gigs that pay well, food, shelter, information for other entertainment opportunities, meet mates, or connect with other awesome performers that can change your whole life to everyone's advantage. All of the above have happened to me, and much, much more."

That says a lot about busking.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

Those Aussies were back in Edinburgh this summer, as offensive as ever.

That sort of behaviour is just what it takes to provoke the council into charging buskers rent for pavement space.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM

Stating an amount is rude and I would have said so, loudly, adding that, even though they were great, they wouldn't get anything from me.

Of course, one could take a gentler approach and holler out, "5 each or from the lot of us? I'll throw in 25p."

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Street Stage Asociation (Croatia)
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM

Yes,it is aceptable to ask busking,even if they were payed for gig.(if we talk about street gig).
Only issue would be how they asked;did they they asked or demand.
And suggestion trick 5 is good,but 3 is also ok,is old one,and also acceptable,if it is said nicely,of course.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:11 PM

Not acceptable - It's a paid gig . If they want to pass the hat and say something humourous / lighthearted " we need enough for the bus fare home or " , then the observer may or may not elect to put something in the hat.
Otherwise I would rebuke any advance which quantified the amount they thought they deserved. You wouldn't accept a the described demand in a restaurant / bar - why should you in this case .
When Busking a smile and lighthearted quip doesn't go amiss when putting the "bite" on.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Hamish
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:07 AM

The Convent Garden piazza performers get their half an hour allocated and have to work hard to draw an audience and keep them interested until the end. The audience is mostly tourists. The performers generally use a variation of "This is my job. I only get paid by my audiences. If you've enjoyed may act, then I'd suggest that £5 for a half an hour's entertainment is good value".

That seems fair to me. Yes, it's pushy. But I'm sure their experience tells them that they get more money that way than by letting people drift off.

I certainly don't wait until the end of the month and let my employer just drift off. Why should they be any different?

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:44 AM

"I do think it odd that an act that was paid to perform was also soliciting tips."
I see what you mean,however when an act is booked and paid for at a folk club they often sell Cds.
I think street entertainment is a bit louder and less gentile eh?
Its more like the atmosphere at a fair ground I find.
Just a little risky or unnerving?

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:28 PM

We wish you a Merry Christmas;
We wish you a Merry Christmas;
We wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Good tidings we bring to you and your kin;
Good tidings for Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Oh, bring us a figgy pudding;
Oh, bring us a figgy pudding;
Oh, bring us a figgy pudding and a cup of good cheer

We won't go until we get some;
We won't go until we get some;
We won't go until we get some, so bring some out here

Or we'll break all your bloody windows,
We'll break all your bloody windows
We'll break all your bloody windows, so bring some out now!

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:12 PM

GUEST,Speaker told us:

At an event last weekend a pair of Australian acrobatic performers were paid £400 to busk in the street at an event.

I wonder whether perhaps the 400 was in the form of a guarantee against the "take", with the implication that perhaps the act could do better.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:57 PM

"Acceptable"??? Whatever works is "acceptable," as far as I can see.

Now, whether I like it or not, and whether I, myself, would be moved to PAY ~ another question entirely.

Busking musicians usually just play continuously, depending upon passers-by to hear their music, perhaps linger briefly or perhaps not, and toss in small contributions (which, one hopes, eventually add up to decent money). At least, that's the way I used to do it.

Acrobats, fire-eaters, etc., etc., necessarily take an entirely different approach to street performance. They generally put on a show with a definite beginning and end, which entails hustling up an audience, keeping them in place while trying to entice additional numbers, doing the performance, and then soliciting payment upon completion. Entirely different modus operandi.

That Ethiopian musicians seems to have appropriated the circus-performers' approach. A bit unusual, but it sounds like it's working for him.

As far as soliciting tips when you've already been paid: I don't necessarily object, I feel it depends on the situation. I would be put off by a performer begging for tips if the performance is inside a venue (festival grounds, etc.) where I had already paid a substantial fee for admittance. If a performer has been paid by some entity to play in public, I would be less likely to object ~ especially if I don't know about the payment arragements, or don't know how much or how little they may have received as "base pay."

I certainly have no problem with musicians maintaining a tip jar when playing in a bar or pub on a "no-cover" basis, where they are likely to be getting paid only a small "guarantee" (if any), or a piddling share of the bar's proceeds. When I have paid for admission, on the other hand, I assume that the money is going to the entertainer(s) and would not feel obligated to pony up any additional contribution.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Sqezy
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:13 AM

I saw a guy sitting on the pavement one day with a large amp, microphone, battery and a sign saying will play for pay. I walked up to him and asked him what the score was and we entered into a strange situation where he was trying to sell me his performance. I liked his attitude and, after some frankly fierce negotiation we made an agreement, I paid him £2 for a song.
I was then surprised to find that the amp folded out and lights flashed as he rapped along to a drum machine for about 3 min's, he was really good and soon a crowd had gathered, but when he stopped he wouldn't start again until someone else paid him. I spoke to him again afterward and he told me he had traveled the world in this way, and was from Ethiopia originally. As I was walking away from the guy again a crowd was forming and a large group of young women all with notes in their hands waving at him, I think he did well that day.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:22 PM

The only time I've seen the kind of behaviour the OP described, it was also Australian acrobats (in the High Street during the Edinburgh Festival).

Maybe it was the same people. Any comments from the Australians here?

This type of approach is relatively recent here I think, within the last five years or so I guess. I have seen it here, maybe the same act, but didn't think it was overly aggressive, more a case of being over egotistical and "bad manners". Where it was once "pay me what you think I'm worth" it's become "I AM worth at least $xxx but you can give me more".

Only once do I recall being totally turned off by an aggressive approach. It was three or four years ago in Cambridge, in a square near The Corn Exchange. The performer was North American (can't remember if US or Canadian) and was demanding a minimum of ₤25, lecturing at length on how it was the "right" thing for the audience to do. Can't remember what the act was - nothing memorable about it.

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:14 PM

Re "Agressive street entertainers".

I was amazed yesterday while wandering along Sydney's Circular Quay (Sunday afternoon, lots of relaxed, amenable people about) to see a street entertainer berating his potential audience to the extent that both parties got up and walked off. He had carefully laid out his props on the promenade area, while trying to cajole spectators comfortably ensconced on the raised lawns to gather round. When he was ready to begin, he continued to plead unsuccessfully for the audience to come in closer. Eventually he threatened to pack up and go if people really weren't interested. As no further response came from the forty or fifty people who could quite happily have viewed his act from where they sat, he got really angry, informing us of how he had performed all over Europe and America and had come back home to Australia in hopes of at least making a living from his performing skills. While venting this tirade, he gradually packed up his gear, and stormed off leaving some very puzzled people behind. So we never found out what exactly his act was.

Or perhaps we missed the point, and that WAS his act? But I can't work out how he made his money, as he never got to the "bottling" stage.

Ross

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:36 AM

GUEST,Mark Stevens

Are these JK's personal feelings ?

No of course it isn't. It's what is known as "a joke".

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:02 AM

GUEST , Mark Stephens - You obviously are somewhat ignorant of the UK Folk Scene ! John Kirkpatrick is a well liked (And usually well paid) professioanl artist and that is part of his satge act !
We have been booked (AND paid) as Street Entertainment . When we are being paid , we do NOT think it ethical to 'bottle' , but it seems churlish to refuse a small cash donation , Especially when proffered by a child (From Mommy's purse).
Actively bottling when you have been paid is NOT acceptable , and I am sure any organiser becoming aware would take a VERY dim view .

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:41 AM

"Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat.
Please put a fiver in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a fiver, a pound will do.
If you haven't got a pound , your window's going through."
Courtesy, John Kirkpatrick

Now, that is NOT acceptable when busking.
Are these JK's personal feelings ?

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:28 AM

"Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat.
Please put a fiver in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a fiver, a pound will do.
If you haven't got a pound , your window's going through."

Courtesy, John Kirkpatrick

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

Is there perhaps precedent, tho, allowing for inflation, in that well-known traditional rhyme ~~

If you haven't got a penny, a halfpenny will do ... ???

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:37 AM

The only time I've seen the kind of behaviour the OP described, it was also Australian acrobats (in the High Street during the Edinburgh Festival).

Maybe it was the same people. Any comments from the Australians here?

Subject: RE: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:32 AM

In my experience when you're busking people rarely listen for more than a few minutes so I can't see how it would damage uptake for the gig later on. (Especially as people presumably did get a taste of what was coming- albeit in tiny segments.)

Mind you this all presupposes the high traffic street corner aproach rather than the gather in the crowd and bottle square kind of approach- (which is the only one really available to some acrobat/juggler type performers as the impressive part will be quite short rather than a continuous stream of music.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:45 PM

I came across a bizarre piece of busking behaviour a few years back, at some Scottish folk festival, in a relatively small town. The organisers were hacked off to find that the act they had booked that night were busking for money in the town square during the daytime, and playing the same music... not promoting the evening show, but the entire set, to make extra money.

The organiser pointed out that as the small town's population had been allowed to hear their show for free, nobody would pay to come to the evening show.

I think he had a point.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:35 AM

Busking is playing for tips. It's part of the act. Doesn't matter if you've received a stipend or not. Trying to hit people up retroactively with a "cover charge" is definitely over the top. That's not busking. That's hustling.

The voluntary pay-what-you-can afford donation system IS busking.

Overly aggressive hustling, or playing like a busker but _not_ taking tips, either of those activities damages the environment for unsubsidized buskers.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:52 AM

Stick the cases out in front, Leadfingers. You never know your luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: mooman
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:26 AM

Not long ago I was standing with my (packed and closed) instrument case at Waterloo Station in London and had just finished a nice take-away cuppa tea and was minding my own business. I was astonished when a passing businessman popped a pound coin into my empty cup, closely followed by another one.

Being paid NOT to play I suppose!

mooman

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

We work the Farmers Markets on a fairly regular basis,and get paid for doing it.The money is well below the 'pro' rate,but leaves time for another gig in the evening,if there is one,so no complaints.We do not bottle,nor solicit but at the same time we do not refuse any donations,even if it only a copper or two.At least it pays the Car Parking,and some times lunch as well.And the instrument cases are behind us,not in front.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: breezy
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM

Typical Aussie Basxxxxs I wouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

In a society without money or poverty or homelessness this wouldn't be a problem would it? Street performers would do it for the pure joy of it.

Well, I'll just move along now...just passing through and observing the local customs on your planet...take no offense.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:34 AM

I wasn't there so I can't pass comment on "agressive". For all I know they were trying to use humour that was missunderstood by at least one person.

I'd be interested to know how Speaker knows the ammount they were paid. Was (s)he one of the oragnisers?

I have known paid acts to collect in street festivals but they would usualy be trying to raise a bit of money for the festival itself rather than to line thier own pockets. I have also known booked acts work on a busking deal rather than being paid by the festival.

Without knowing the deal with the organisers, it is hard to tell right or wrong but as a general principle being paid and then collecting for ones self would seem shall I say unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: MMario
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 09:04 AM

I do think it odd that an act that was paid to perform was also soliciting tips.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:50 AM

I've already said quite a lot about "bottling" a crowd in other threads. A bottler has to be as pushy as possible without overstepping the mark. I would never dream of suggesting any specific minimum amount of money, but I do think that as much performance as possible should be put into the process of extracting money from the punters.

Recently I was bottling a crowd and another collector asked me which part had I covered so that she could avoid it. My answer was - just keep bottling - it doesn't matter. I often tell audiences "When you put money in a Parking Meter or Juke Box, it doesn't last forever" - but I DO IT WITH A BIG GRIN ON MY FACE. Make plenty of jokes such as "All this money is going to the Crown .........and the King's Head and the Royal Oak....". If you, yourself entertain the punters as well, they will cough up happily enough.

I had a great time bottling for a wonderful group of (middle-aged) belly-dancers recently. When the ladies were performing a dance where they were laying on their backs, I suggested that they were "laying back and thinking of Egypt". When a gentleman asked me if he could visit the ladies, I told him that he'd need a little bit of surgery before he'd be allowed in the Hareem. I know that at least one tenner went in the tin - yes it was mainly due to the ladies efforts that people were so generous, but I'm sure I played my part. Anyway I got well kissed by the troupe afterwards - so I'm not complaining !

As I've said before - a good bottler has to be a good performer. If you upset a punter the first time you try to collect you won't get anything the next time you come round - that's even assuming that they're still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:30 PM

If they had already been paid, then no, it isn't acceptable to demand money. It's possible that a hard nosed copper could see it as demanding money with menaces and nick them for it. They could certainly be nicked for begging, particularly as they have already received a payment.

It's like having a service charge and expecting a gratuity. They have been paid once, if it wasn't enough they shouldn't have taken the gig.

If busking is their sole income, then yes, they have a right to be reasonably firm in the way they request payment. If they have another set income (payment for the gig) then they have no right to forcibly demand more. And I bet they don't declare the pickings to the Inland Revenue.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:59 PM

I've never seen an aggressive busker - and I definitely wouldn't give one a single penny. Cajoling maybe, but that's quite a different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

Halifax, Nova Scotia has a Buskers Festival. It is a fine venue and most of the acts are top notch and are not overly aggressive in the solitation of funds. However, this past summer there were one or two "acts" who were obnoxious about demmanding payment. The effect was that it put people off and other, less aggressive performers sufferd as people drifted away from the Festival. Aggressive busking is like aggressive begging, people will shy away from it because they feel threatened. Hopefully these few opportunists will not spoil it for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM

But you know what happens to those ren-faire performers when they DON'T get pushy about "hat"? They don't get any! On the other hand I think the described behaviour is a bit much.

I usually end a set at faire with something along the lines of "If you're going to throw something - try paper,"

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:32 PM

They must have made £100s of £s.

I'm surprised they got anything at all, from what you say. Unless the brashness was part of the act, tongue-in-cheek, and the audience took it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 01:23 PM

The only experience I've had with non-musical buskers was at the single renaissance fair I've participated in. The jugglers, fire-eaters, and magicians that performed there were much more blatant about soliciting tips than I've ever seen a busking musician be. It seems to be an extension of the persona that they develop as performers. When performing, they are in character, and the charcter they are portraying is often a loud-mouthed, wise-cracking jokester. Being pushy about tips is just part of staying in character.

Fortunately, blatant solicitation on the part of street mimes would mean stepping totally out of character which should, hopefully, result in their eventual starvation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:54 PM

And they had already been paid???

- Ian B

Subject: Is this acceptable when busking?
From: GUEST,Speaker
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM

At an event last weekend a pair of Australian acrobatic performers were paid £400 to busk in the street at an event.

They were extremely good at what they did, except that at the end of the performances (and there were many) one of them turned off the charm, and demanded that if the audience enjoyed the act they should put £5 in the hat and shuvved it under the noses of the lookers-on. If £5 was too much £3 would do! They must have made £100s of £s. Is this acceptable?