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Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?

DigiTrad:
DALESMAN'S LITANY


Wolfgang 02 Nov 01 - 07:32 AM
Matthew Edwards 02 Nov 01 - 08:09 AM
Charley Noble 02 Nov 01 - 08:36 AM
masato sakurai 02 Nov 01 - 08:54 AM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Nov 01 - 10:25 AM
John Wood 25 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,MCP 25 Sep 02 - 05:27 PM
Susanne (skw) 25 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 25 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Sep 02 - 08:24 PM
John Wood 26 Sep 02 - 08:16 AM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Sep 02 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 26 Sep 02 - 06:05 PM
GUEST 16 Aug 04 - 02:42 AM
John MacKenzie 16 Aug 04 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,lanfranc sans cookie 16 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM
Dave Sutherland 16 Aug 04 - 04:26 PM
ced2 17 Aug 04 - 10:52 AM
Dave Hanson 18 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM
ced2 18 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,aufwindian 03 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM
padgett 04 Apr 05 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,Rich 15 Apr 05 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Rowan 27 Sep 06 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,IBO 27 Sep 06 - 06:08 PM
Bob Bolton 27 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,Eland Hull and Halifax 15 Oct 06 - 08:45 AM
Geoff the Duck 15 Oct 06 - 03:14 PM
GUEST 06 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Topic56 05 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM
peregrina 05 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM
theleveller 06 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM
r.padgett 06 Oct 08 - 04:35 AM
Steve Gardham 06 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM
nutty 06 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM
nutty 06 Oct 08 - 05:31 PM
theleveller 07 Oct 08 - 03:37 AM
mayomick 07 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM
theleveller 07 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM
squeezebox-kc 07 Oct 08 - 08:17 AM
r.padgett 07 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Topic56 10 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM
Arnie 11 Oct 08 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Neil Howlett 30 Dec 10 - 03:50 PM
stallion 30 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM
Rob Naylor 30 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,SteveG 30 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM
stallion 31 Dec 10 - 03:13 AM
r.padgett 31 Dec 10 - 03:35 AM
Roughyed 31 Dec 10 - 03:39 AM
Rob Naylor 31 Dec 10 - 04:19 AM
Geoff the Duck 31 Dec 10 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Peterr 13 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,John Adams 09 Mar 11 - 04:51 PM
Jack Campin 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 06 May 12 - 09:38 AM
RoyH (Burl) 06 May 12 - 11:07 AM
Steve Gardham 06 May 12 - 01:32 PM
r.padgett 07 May 12 - 03:25 AM
Steve Gardham 07 May 12 - 04:29 AM
r.padgett 09 May 12 - 04:32 AM
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Subject: Dalesman's litany (orig.)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:32 AM

Dave Fawthrop buried this gem in a thread in the Help Forum. I think it merits a thread here:
Just found your version of Dalesmans Litany via a thread in umf. This song was written by F W Moorman and published in Songs of the Ridings. see my site Yorkshire dialect poetry for the full text including preface. As the work is out of copyright this is of acedemic interest only, but it is best atribute things to the correct author even if long dead. The words given on your site are not the original see below:

(the site linked is well worth a visit, not only for Dalesman's litany, Wolfgang)

A Dalesman's Litany

From Hull, Halifax, and Hell, good Lord deliver us.
A Yorkshire Proverb.

It's hard when fowks can't finnd their wark
Wheer they've bin bred an' born;
When I were young I awlus thowt
I'd bide 'mong t' roots an' corn.
But I've bin forced to work i' towns,
So here's my litany:
Frae Hull, an' Halifax, an' Hell,
Gooid Lord, deliver me!

When I were courtin' Mary Ann,
T' owd squire, he says one day:
"I've got no bield(1) for wedded fowks;
Choose, wilt ta wed or stay?"
I couldn't gie up t' lass I loved,
To t' town we had to flee:
Frae Hull, an' Halifax, an' Hell,
Gooid Lord, deliver me!

I've wrowt i' Leeds an' Huthersfel',
An' addled(2) honest brass;
I' Bradforth, Keighley, Rotherham,
I've kept my barns an' lass.
I've travelled all three Ridin's round,
And once I went to sea:
Frae forges, mills, an' coalin' boats,
Gooid Lord, deliver me!

I've walked at neet through Sheffield loans,(3)
'T were same as bein' i' Hell:
Furnaces thrast out tongues o' fire,
An' roared like t' wind on t' fell.
I've sammed up coals i' Barnsley pits,
Wi' muck up to my knee:
Frae Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham,
Gooid Lord, deliver me!

I've seen grey fog creep ower Leeds Brig
As thick as bastile(4) soup;
I've lived wheer fowks were stowed away
Like rabbits in a coop.
I've watched snow float down Bradforth Beck
As black as ebiny:
Frae Hunslet, Holbeck, Wibsey Slack,
Gooid Lord, deliver me!

But now, when all wer childer's fligged,(5)
To t' coontry we've coom back.
There's fotty mile o' heathery moor
Twix' us an' t' coal-pit slack.
And when I sit ower t' fire at neet,
I laugh an' shout wi' glee:
Frae Bradforth, Leeds, an Huthersfel',
Frae Hull, an' Halifax, an' Hell,
T' gooid Lord's delivered me!

1. Shelter. 2. Earned,
3. Lanes 4. Workhouse 5. Fledged


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dalesman's litany (orig.)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:09 AM

Thanks Wolfgang for unearthing that treasure. Dave Burland sings it on his album of the same title. This is one of the few jewels which Dave Bulmer has slipped out from his hoard, and issued on CD:Dave Burland: A Dalesman's Litany LERCD2029. I suppose if more people go out and buy this (and it is well worth it!), Mr Bulmer may be encouraged to release more of his stuff(?).
Its a good song, but probably not appropriate as the national anthem for the Mudcat Republic of Yorkshire!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dalesman's litany (orig.)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:36 AM

Thanks for re-posted this!

Landlady's Daughter, not to be confused with Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dalesman's litany (orig.)
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:54 AM

"The Dalesman's Litany" is also in Roy Palmer's Touch On The Times: Songs of Social Change 1770 to 1914 (Penguin, 1974, pp. 71-72), with minor differences (mostly in spelling) and with tune. Palmer's source is "Text: 'written (or collected) by Dr Moorman, President of the Yorkshire Dialect Society about 1900'. Tune: 'written by Dave Keddie of Bradford about 1960', English Folk Dance and Song Society."(p. 329)

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dalesman's litany (orig.)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:25 AM

Moorman's collection  Yorkshire Dialect Poems (1673-1915) and Traditional Poems  can also be seen at Dave's site.  I've quoted material from it (with links to Dave's site) from time to time in the Forum:

HAGMANA SONG
CLEVELAND LYKE-WAKE DIRGE


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Subject: Who Wrote ``Dalesman's Litany 创?
From: John Wood
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM

Anyone help with this ?
Ihave a copy of Tim Hart singing this song on ``Folk Songs of Olde England创(Mooncrest Records Ltd.1991)
It states there ``All titles Trad. Arr.Hart创.
The problem is.....I produced a CD in 1995 where one of the songs was The Dalesman's Litany.
We credited MR. Trad. as being responsible,but have since heard that this is possibly wrong !!!

Hope someone out there can help.I wouldn't like to do someone out of their royalties.
The song is not registered with NCB(The international song rights people here in NORWAY).
Someone did mention Dave Goulder as a possible ?


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote ``Dalesman's Litany 创?
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:27 PM

See this thread: Lyr Add:Dalesman's litany (orig) for details of the author (FW Moorman) and a link to a site about him.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote ``Dalesman's Litany 创?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

[1974:] [Text] written (or collected) by Dr Moorman, President of the Yorkshire Dialect Society about 1900. [Tune] written by Dave Keddie of Bradford about 1960, English Folk Dance and Song Society. (Roy Palmer, A Touch on the Times 329)


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote ``Dalesman's Litany 创?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

I recall hearing that Moorman wrote the song with the intention of passing it off as "traditional". Is this fact or urban myth?


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote ``Dalesman's Litany 创?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:24 PM

Myth. See his book, which can easily be found on the web.


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: John Wood
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:16 AM

Thanks for the info. Mick and Susanne.
John


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 10:41 AM

I should expand slightly on my very short post of very late last night. The refrain is based on a traditional saying; the rest is Moorman's. He quoted, as a sub-title to his poem:

"From Hull, Halifax, and Hell, good Lord deliver us. A Yorkshire Proverb."

It's possible that some may have misunderstood that, and assumed it to refer to the entire text.


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:05 PM

Damn, another good story bites the dust.


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 02:42 AM


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:11 AM

I remember being told that the origin of the saying went back to the days of footpads, and highwaymen. Apparently Hull and Halifax were the two towns in that area where you got the hardest punishment from the magistrates for breaking the law. Up to, and including, hanging.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: GUEST,lanfranc sans cookie
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM

Halifax went one better, and had a prototype of the guillotine.

For more details see this (Danish!) site Halifax Gibbet


Alan


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:26 PM

The tune to which "Dalesman's Litany" is set featured quite often in the film "Brassed Off". I am curious to know if it is a brass band test piece or popular band tune?


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: ced2
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:52 AM

The tune was written by Dave Keddie as correctly stated above. Dave Keddie died a few years ago, a fellow musician and member of the same group (the Dalesmen) as Dave, Eddie Saxton wrote an obit in Tykes News. The origin of the tune is clear, if there is any question of it being a test piece it was taken from the "folk" world and not the other way round abd Dave Keddie should receive all credit for the work.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

Hell speaks for itself, Hull and Halifax were the last places in Yorkshire to have a gibbet.

eric


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: ced2
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM

What are you saying here Eric? To compare 'alifax and 'ull with 'ell may do disservice to 'ell!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: GUEST,aufwindian
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:45 PM

A travel historian writes: regarding the Halifax guillotine, this turns up in travel writing of the 1600s. Celia Fiennes (1698) nearly makes a detour to Halifax to view "ye Engine that that town was famous for to behead their Criminalls at one stroake wth a pully." Decommissioned by her time, this device for summarily executing cloth and other thieves predates the guillotine by at least a couple of centuries. It apparently explains the inclusion of Halifax in the refrain of the Dalesman's Litany, "From Hull and Halifax and Hell, Good Lord deliver me" (Hull is perhaps there because it had a reputation for dealing harshly with vagrants, which once infested the city). According to pedestrian John Taylor, who says he saw the Halifax contraption in 1639, when it may still have been in operation, a suspect could be executed at the discretion of a panel of townsmen, but the line could only be cut by the wronged party. If he or she baulked, the stolen items were forfeited to the community and the thief went free. I am fairly sure the phrase Hull Halifax and Hell was also current at this time, though I can't be bothered to dig up the quote right now. Hope this helps or entertains.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: padgett
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 04:27 AM

see malcolm douglas always right!

I have recorded this on my CD, per Gordon Tyrall mines definitive !!

Dave Burland and Roy Bailey main recorded versions back in 70s

Maddy Prior and Tim Hart recorded also Keighley not Keigthley! in West Yorks (sleeve note error)
Ray Padgett


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote DALESMAN'S LITANY?
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:43 PM

As far as i no it was Dave Keddie who first sung it


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:03 PM

Unable to do blue clickies. I offer the following URL
http://www.abc.net.au/arts/books/stories/s447291.htm

for how the "Hull, Halifax and Hell" phrase was used in Australia by Paterson to become
And people have an awful down
Upon the district and the town -
Which worse than hell itself they call;
In fact, the saying far and wide
Along the Riverina side
Is 'Hay and Hell and Booligal.'

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:08 PM

I THINK IT WAS WRITTEN BY DALE WINTON


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM

G'day Rowan,

I don't have the references for this, but I do remember seeing (hearing ... ?):

"If I had Hay, Hell and Booligal as station (~ ranches / estates) ... I would sell Hay, lease Booligal - and live in Hell!

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dalesman's Litany
From: GUEST,Eland Hull and Halifax
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:45 AM

Just to play devils Advocate, I remember many, many, years ago in Scarbourgh at a folk club, someone singing from Eland (h)ull and (H)alifax good lord deliver me, Not Hell, Eland being not far from Halifax, has anyone else heard it sung this way?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dalesman's Litany
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 03:14 PM

Elland is quite nice and on the Calder Hebble Canal and hardly somewhere to avoid.
Dropping "H"es is pretty standard pronunciation in the 'Uddersfield and 'Alifax area. The only reason there isn't a dropped 'Aitch in Bradford is that there isn't one to drop.
The line is "Hell and...." anyway.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

Thanks duck!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,Topic56
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

The Dalesmans Litany is from the collection of dialect poems in The Songs of The Riddings. It however came ito the folk domain via Dennis Sabey and Dave Keddy then members of The Topic Folk Club in Bradford. The story is that both Dennis and dave were researching dialect poems seperatly and without the other knowing. They both came up with The Dalesmans litany but each with a tune of their own. Dennis decided he prefered Dave's tune to is and so sang it thus. Dennis used to sing more down at The Topic than Dave so the song got more airings from Dennis than Dave. It was picked up from Dennis by Christy Moore, Roy Bailey and Tim Hart and Maddy Prior from their hearing Dennis singing it got the words and tune from him and you can find credits from these people on their Lps thought you have to find the first issue of Songs of England by Tim Hart and Maddy Prior for this Dave Burland also got his version from Dennis Sabey which is on his Lp Dalesmans Litany but without a credit though Dave Burland tells me it was an oversite and not deliberate. Dave Keddy passed away a few yers ago now and I would think he is owed royalties for the tune or at least his surviving family should. Hope this helps


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: peregrina
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

For the answer see the notes here in the Yorkshire Garland page for the Dalesman's Litany


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

The actual litany:

From Hull, Hell and Halifax
Good Lord deliver me

Is much older than the Dalesman's Litany. The earliest written record I've come across is from a poem by John Taylor, written between 1612 and 1653. He was known as The Water Poet because he was a Thames boatman in London. It goes:

"There is a Proverbe, and a prayer withall,
That we may not to these strange places fall,
From Hull, from Halifax, from Hell, 'tis thus,
From all these three, Good Lord deliver us.
This praying proverb's meaning to set down,
Men do not wish deliverance from the Town:
The towns named Kingston, Hull's furious River:
And from Hull's dangers, I say Lord deliver.
At Halifax, the law so sharp doth deal,
That whoso more than 13 Pence doth steal,
They have a jyn* that wondrous quick and well,
Sends thieves all headless unto Heav'n or Hell.
From Hell each man says, Lord deliver me,
Because from Hell can no redemption be:
Men may escape from Hull and Halifax,
But sure in Hell there is a heavier tax,
Let each one for themselves in this agree,
And pray, from Hell good Lord deliver me."

My grandfather taught me the Litany when I was a child. He said that it was written by or about people who had been disposessed of their land and living for one reaosn or another (plague, enclosures etc.)and made into beggars. The things they feared most were being press-ganged in Hull, dying without benefit of clergy and going to hell, and the Halifax gibbet, where people were beheaded for stealing goods worth more than 13 pence.

Before I had heard The Dalesmans's Litany, I decided to write a song called The Beggar's Litany, which we now perform frequently and which causes quite a lot of contention as people tend to assume that it's traditional.

THE BEGGAR'S LITANY

I am an honest travelling man, a beggar by my trade,
In the village of old Eastburn is where I was born and raised
Until the squire turned me out with no place to lay my head
And to the begging I did go to earn my daily bread.

Chorus:
Just keep my body from the press gang who would take me off to sea
Keep my soul from the devil and from torment keep me free
#Keep my head from the gibbet axe and hear my litany
From Hull, hell and Halifax, good Lord deliver me.

I roam the roads of Yorkshire from the moorlands to the sea
I take my pleasures easy and I take my pleasures free
I call no man my master, no mistress do I serve
I ask for no man's blessing and I seek for no man's curse.

Chorus

I eat when I am hungry and I drink when I am dry
And if I find a willing lass, all night with her I'll lie
But when the dawn is breaking and the sun is in the sky
We'll kiss and laugh and go our ways with many a fond goodbye.

Chorus

Well I've been whipped in Beverley and branded on the cheek
And in the stocks in Huddersfield I've sat for half a week
But in the eve when I sit down with such a jovial band
There's not a more contented man alive in all the land.

Chorus

Anyone interested can hear it here
http://www.myspace.com/whipstafffolk


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:35 AM

This is very interesting leveller, a link with a Beggars song to Dalesman's Litany

gets better

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM

Good stuff. Now I've got you, Leveller. I thought you were somebody else for a while. Had a listen to 'Beggar's Litany'. Nice one.

Ray,
Pete and Jools almost joined us at the Launch Day do but somehow we let them slip through the net. Better add them to your list.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: nutty
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

Very interesting new info ..... details of John Taylor can be found here

John Taylor


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: nutty
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:31 PM

Or anyone wanting an original version of Taylors works on begging can find it on abe books ..................

Praise, antiquity, and commodity, of beggery, beggers, and begging
Taylor, John, the Water Poet

Bookseller Rating: 5-star rating
        Price: 15000.00

Book Description: London 1621., 1621. The praise, antiquity, and commodity, of beggery, beggers, and begging. London: printed by E. A[llde] for Henry Gosson; and are to be sold by Edward Wright, 1621. 28 pp. (unpaginated). Sm. 4to, half calf antique and marbled boards, red morocco label. First edition. A quintessential effort by one of London's most prolific and popular versifiers during the first half of the 17th century. John Taylor worked for some years as a Thames waterman, but in the end he abandoned his trade because the profession was overcrowded, and rising competition from hackney coaches, as well as the removal of the theaters from the Surrey side of the river, had rendered business poor. "Taylor therefore sought to increase his earnings by turning to account his knack for easy rhyming." -- DNB. In his new role he attracted much attention, and a certain degree of patronage from such notables as Ben Jonson, Nicholas Breton, and Thomas Dekker. He had particular success with the glorification of his own poverty, which he sought to display in ingenious ways, most notably, in 1618, by undertaking to travel on foot from London to Edinburgh without taking a single penny from his pocket. It is this form of itinerant beggary which the present poem celebrates. Taylor revels in the beggar's freedom from the troubles of the rich, and catalogues in doggerel the beggar's virtues, including humility, patience, fortitude, temperance, and honor. Towards the end he interrupts his rhymes with a traditional prose "character," in which a beggar is portrayed asking alms from, in turn, a nobleman, a lawyer, and a country farmer; each appeal is supplemented by an amusing prayer of thanks. Taylor also discourses upon the natural relationship between poverty and poetry: "Apollo, with advice did wisely grant,/ That poets should be poore, and live in want." In describing the benefits of beggary he cites two Elizabethan predecessors: "He (in his owne conceit) may have this blisse, / And sing, My minde to me a kindome is. / But 'tis a kingdome wanting forme or matter, / Or substance, like the moonshine in the water. / For as a learned poet wrote before, / Grosse gold runnes headlong from them, to the bore." The first quote, by Sir Edward Dyer, was by this time essentially proverbial. The second is identified in a side-note as by "Chris Marlo;" the line does in fact come from Marlowe's Hero and Leander, first published in 1598, and reprinted in 1600, 1606, 1613, and 1617. Of additional interest is the three-page sarcastic dedication "to the bright eye-dazeling mirrour of mirth, adelantado of alacrity, the pump of pastime, spout of sport, and regent of ridiculous confabulations, Archibald Armstrong, alias the court Archy." Armstrong was the court jester to both James I and Charles I; for the collected edition of Taylor's works published in 1630 it was thought prudent that this dedication be suppressed. With a fine large woodcut on the title-page, showing a "beggers bush," "a maundering begger," and "a gallant begger." Trimmed a bit close at the top, just touching the first two words of the title, and many of the headlines; one side-note slightly shaved, affecting a handful of letters which are wholly obvious. Some browning, otherwise a very good copy of a rare and appealing title; only five other copies are known (L, O; CSmH, MH, NN), and none has appeared on the market for more than fifty years.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:37 AM

Hi Steve. Sorry we weren't able to get involved in Yorkshire Garland. For various reasons I won't go into here, our lives just got a little too frantic. We have been following it with interest and it really is a fantastic project.

BTW when Ray sang Dalesman's Litany at the launch, it was the first time I'd heard it sung.

Nutty, as a book collector I'd love to buy the above volume. It's about three noughts above my price range, though.

Anyone interested in the social history of begging and the huge numbers of 'masterless men' who roamed the country in the 17 & 18th centuries should read Christopher Hill's excellent book, 'Liberty Against the Law' which looks at the history of the time through the songs and popular culture. And, of course, there's Gay's 'Beggar's Opera'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: mayomick
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

Nutty's review mentioned a woodcut showing a "beggers bush". Does anyone know what it refers to ? There's an area in Dublin called Beggars Bush .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

A Beggar's Bush was a traditional meeting place for beggars. Bear in mind that, especially during the 17th and 18th centuries, there was a considerable number of itinerants roaming the land and living in woods and forests. These Beggar's Bushes appear to have been spread around the country and would have provided a central point to meet, swap information and news and, no doubt, have a few bevvies.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: squeezebox-kc
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:17 AM

GTD there is also no T in Bratford but it is usually included LOL
Ken


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:29 AM

All contributions to the Yorkshire Garland website gratefully accepted my email can be found on our Website and I am accepting musical notation lyrics and mp3 or WAV or CD for songs!

Many thanks

Ray Padgett


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,Topic56
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM

Just a point on no T in Bradford, no there is not one in the spelling.But when I was a mere youth and an apprentice to boot I was working in a lady's house and she asked where I was born and I replied Bradford. She queeried it and said it was because i had not pronounced it Bratford. Now I am led to believe that Bradford comes from Broad Ford as at one tine there was a waterway through the Market Town as it was then (when Leeds was but a small village). One can only assume that when the wool trade was at it's height Brat came in from the Brats that woolsorters wore. No I have digressed from the general gist.
Think though it is a shame that apart from me nobody else gives Dennis Sabey any credit for introducing it to the folk scene as if you talk to the proffesional singers who first started singing it would credit Dennis Sabey as their source. Dave Keddy was responsible for bring in another song into the folk domain "The Methody Parson" credited to Dave by Bill Price on his LP "A Fine Old Yorkshire Gentlemam" it is also on Roy Harris's LP "Champions Of Folly" though not sure if he credited Dave. My wife has started singing it after getting a copy of the words written down by Dave from Dennis Sabey.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Arnie
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 11:59 AM

When I lived in Halifax some years ago, I saw an unused guillotine blade in a Halifax museum - they've kept it greased all these years and it still looked useable! Another interesting Halifax guillotine fact is that if a felon could escape and cross a stream at the town boundary, then he would not be pursued and was free, as long as he never returned to Halifax. One such escapee did return to Halifax some years later, was promptly arrested and beheaded. I think there is a pub somewhere in the town called The Running Man which refers to this. On the subject of Bradford, in Halifax the local simply call it 'Fud!


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Subject: RE: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany? Beggars Bush
From: GUEST,Neil Howlett
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:50 PM

Beggars Bush is noted in many anthologies (e.g. Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable) as a haunt of beggars and this is frequently given as an explanation for the origin of the name. I have analysed 120 sites where the name is record and can say with confidence that it is not. Brewer's entry is created from an concatenatiuon of earlier anthologists and can be traced back to Thomas Fuller in 1662 who said the phrase was used to mean "to go to ruin". The "bush" is symbolic as in precursor phrases, e.g. (1506)"we are brought to begger staffe"and (1564) 'go home many miles, by foolam crosse, by weepyng cross, by beggers Barne, and by knaues Acre". The type example is in the pamphlet Her Protection for Women (London, 1589) by the pseudonymous Jane Anger;
"The great Patrimonies that wealthy men leave their children after their death, make them rich: but vice and other marthriftes happening into their companies, never leave them until they bee at the beggers bush, where I can assure you they become poore."
I am a great fan of John Taylor, The Water Poet, who mentions two Beggars Bushes in the dedication to his Praise, Antiquity and Commodity of Beggary, Beggars & begging, etc. (1621). Taylor would have passed the Beggars Bush site near Godminster during his Pennyles Pilgrimage (1618) but makes no mention of the site in that work. He was almost certainly aware of the place name from a map, as it is a prominent symbol on Saxton's map (1576) and copied subsequently by almost every other mapmaker. The wonderful woodcut showing two ragged beggars under Beggars Bush, but it bears no relationship to the text, which is Taylor's usual doggerel and does not mention itself Beggars Bush. I suspect that it was either reused or designed for another pamphlet now lost or never published.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: stallion
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM

mmmmmmmm reading the post Wolfgang 01....the dialect seems bloody strange to me. Coming from the North Yorkshire farming community where dialect was spoken at the market on market day seems to be a bit of a mongrel verse, Hull!!!! 'ull 'n' 'ell, bit of North Yorkshire bit of south yorkshire a bit of wessy. As I read it I can't place the accent at all. Sadly I can't remember the dialect much but I do remember my dads regular line...."As gan gitten gutorcs" It's a great song but should be sung in ones mother tongue or brogue otherwise it isn't real.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

The dialect seems odd to me too. I was born and brought up in the West Riding, just south of Bradford, but spent a lot of time in North Yorkshire too, and the whole thing doesn't seem right for either dialect...there are even a few constructions that sound more Lancastrian than Yorkshire to me!

As for the "Bratford" posts....It IS "Broad Ford and nothing to do with "brats"...the pronunciation is absolutely NOT "Bratfud" or "Bratford" but "Bra'f'd", where the apostrophes represent glottal stops. Listen to one of us locals saying the word and there's neither an intoned nor an implied "t" in it, but a glottal stop where the "d" has been truncated.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM

Moorman was from East Riding farming stock and by the time he wrote his dialect stuff was president of the YDS and a prof at Leeds Uni.
He wasn't using his native dialect if he had one. The first line does reflect to some degree his moving from East Riding rural to W Riding industrial urban.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: stallion
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:13 AM

Got me fooled there steveG East Riding rural could be bevla, 'ornsea or dare i say it pock, maybe wolds way. The wolds accent was nearer to my dads accent (Staxton, very close)and from the Seamer and Malton markets which drew people from the North Yorks Moors as well as the vale of Pickering and the vale of York and as I remember undercernibly different if not a foriegn language! The urban accents were and probably still are very different, I spent two years living and working in 'ull '70 - '72 and boy the accent was the strangest and the stench from the fish dock on the wrong day was disgusting. My old english teacher, Mrs Brown, used to read out poems printed in the "Dalesman"in dialect in class she was worried that the Yorkshire identity would disappear with the loss of the dialect. Sadly it is dying out and what is worse, i was at the pub on christmas eve where they put on a christmas songs singalong and all the kids under 21 were singing with pseudo yankee accents what the hell is that all about?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:35 AM

Just another point in passing
I recorded this recently and MCPS has Dave Keddie as being responsible for the tune officially

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Roughyed
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 03:39 AM

There is a Bradford in Manchester that my mother (a Lancashire woman) always pronounced Bratford. I never heard her refer to the place on the worng side of the Pennines. As for the dialect, it's a song about how awful Yorkshire is - of course it's got some Lancastrian constructions:)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 04:19 AM

Sure you were listening carefully enough Roughyed?

I can't say for sure how the people on the TRUE wrong side of the Pennines might pronounce Bradford, but in every case I've ever encountered where someone has thought that a Yorkshire person has said "Bratford", they've not been listening properly....it's a glottal stop for sure, NOT a "t": "Bra'f'd" !!!

"Bra'f'd"
"Bra'f'd"
"Bra'f'd"
"Bra'f'd"
"Bra'f'd"

:-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 02:49 PM

Too true, Rob. The big problem is trying to explain to offcomedun's what the noise made by the absence of a sound makes what is left sound like.
Quack!
Geoff ' Duck.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST,Peterr
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

Delighted MCPS have the tune credited to Dave Keddy. It was the theme playing behind many scenes in 'Brassed Off' so should have been a nice earner. I'll be singing the song tonight at the Blue Anchor in Helston in memory of Pete Postlethwaite.


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Subject: RE: Beggars Bush
From: GUEST,John Adams
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:51 PM

Neil - thanks for this useful intro to 'Beggars Bush'. We have one in Croydon, which sits on a hilltop very near the parish boundary with Wallington and a reputed 'Saxon' graveyard. I have been studying it for some time. The oddity is that it was a feature on the landscape, rather than a farm - it seems to have been a clump of trees. It first appears on maps in 1816, and had vanished from them by 1960, though it has a ghostly presence on land title deeds of houses on the spot. One theory is that it divided the arable lands of Croydon from the pastoral land of Wallington. Since Wallington was 'welsh', this could indeed be an ancient boundary. Any thoughts ? I would be interested to see your list of 120 - do you have the one between Stafforshire and Chester which was also a reputed graveyard (of beggars). You can mail me on web@amcd.co.uk if you wish. I will also send you my piece when it is finished. John.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Meanwhile, another reason why you might want to be delivered from Hull:

drunks banned from Hull city centre


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 12 - 09:38 AM

Don't think Dennis Sabey ever got any credit for this. Song most associated with Dave Burland I think.....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 06 May 12 - 11:07 AM

Mention is made here of the song 'The Methody Parson', sung by me on my Topic vinyl 'Champions of Folly'. I learned the song in 1962 or 63 from Tom Randall of Retford, then living in Cardiff. He got it from a great Yorkshire folk stalwart, the late Rennie Pickles. Tom is now retired from a career as a bookseller, and lives in Somerset, where he once played concertina in The Blue Hill Button Band. Maybe he still does.
Incidentally, 'Champions of Folly' was reviewed by someone in North Wales who said, in effect, I haven't got the original words, that the album was fine Except for 'The Methody Parson' which was in very bad taste'
Memories of Rennie Pickles anyone?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 12 - 01:32 PM

Yep, Dave,
Lots of memories of Rennie, in The Cropper Lads. Jim Potter has returned to the fold in recent years and can be heard on the YG website. Pat Pickles is still around doing her jig dolls and postcards in Wakefield. I used to buy and sell books from Tom as well. Small world! I believe 'Methody Parson' was collected by one of the students on the Leeds Folklife Course. I've got it somewhere, but it's not particularly a Yorkshire song and not all that scarce.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 May 12 - 03:25 AM

Jim Potter lives half mile from me in Barnsley! Stalwart again at The Grove in Leeds with Alma Wright

Rennie, big lad 40 cigs a day big mutton chops, Jim Potter has some nice photos of the Cropper lads in the early days

Pat and Rennie collected postcards too and were to be seen at Redcar ff for many years and a lad for mucky jokes and we had an hilarious time with Brian Howard, Johnny Booker and Rennie one year!

Dancing dolls to my shame I missed this with Pat, Rolf Harris and Dick Harrison and I think Steve Gardham and some more of my mates. All sort of dancing dolls collected by Pat and Rennie

Methody parson on Bill Price's first LP a Fine old Yorkshire Gentleman and of course Ruth and Sadie [Price] now singing together and Wendy playing melodeon for dance teams!
Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 12 - 04:29 AM

Hi Ray,
Went to see She Shanties at Ruscadors in Hull about a week ago. Very entertaining and Ruth and Sadie were in good form. Nice to see Ester and Eilish singing again, and Sally Gall as well. Mick did a good support spot.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Who Wrote Dalesman's Litany?
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 May 12 - 04:32 AM

Holmfirth coming up Steve!
Busy festival time, might get to see the She Shanties sometime!
Ray


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