BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Áine
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:35 PM

Dear Mudcatters,

I have declined to participate in controversial threads like this one since my experience with the thread that katlaughing mentioned in her post in Part I of this thread. However, since this is a subject that involves my community and my relations (albeit distant relations), I feel compelled to add my voice here in an attempt to bring information, clarity, and reason to this discussion.

First of all, I have spoken several times to Larry (InOBU) in the last week about this situation. I assure you all that he neither condones Ms. Toogood's actions toward her child, nor condones corporeal punishment in general.

What Larry was attempting to express in his first post, and in all his subsequent posts, is that the authorities and the media are bringing cultural biases, prejudices and stereotyping to bear in their dealings with Ms. Toogood, her child, and her family.

I agree with Larry that Ms. Toogood's treatment of her daughter was totally inappropriate and that intervention was called for in this case. I also agree with him that removing a Traveller child totally from her community could cause potential harm to the child. I agree with him too, that Ms. Toogood is being castigated and criminalized in the media for being an Irish Traveller.

As I read through the posts to this thread, it is apparent that many of you are unaware of the history and background of the Irish Travellers (Pavees). I will not take up room on the server here with a lengthy explanation and/or description of this unique ethnic culture. Instead, I urge you all to educate yourselves by visiting, and reading the information on, the following websites, several of which list bibliographies and/or references that are available for further research:

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/print/RR/pxrfh.html - The Handbook of Texas Online

http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/cultureintro.html - The Gypsy Lore Society; Information on Gypsy & Traveler Cultures, Gypsy and Traveler Groups in North America, (adapted from the introduction to Gypsies and Travelers in North America: An Annotated Bibliography (where the original citations will be found)

http://www.travellersrest.org/ - Travellers' Rest: Fact And Fiction About Irish Travellers in the U.S.A.

http://www.pitt.edu/~alkst3/Traveller.html - Irish Traveller Notes and Resources

http://www.paveepoint.ie/pav_home_a.html - Pavee Point Travellers Centre; Supporting Human Rights For Irish Travellers

http://www.itmtrav.com/index.html - The Irish Traveller Movement

As for the incident itself: Yes, Ms. Toogood lost control and struck her child inappropriately. Yes, intervention by civil authorities is unquestionably called for. Yes, the civil authorities should investigate as to whether this was a single incident, or if there is a pattern of child abuse in the family. And yes, adjudication by civil authorities as to the results of such investigation and intervention should be carried out.

However, what concerns me is (a) the demonizing of Ms. Toogood and the Traveller community in the media, and (b) whether Ms. Toogood and her family will receive fair and unbiased treatment from the authorities.

Central to my concerns regarding fair treatment is the hysteria and the mob mentality being fomented by the biased and prejudicial coverage of this situation by the media, and its potential to influence such treatment.

It has been noted by some of you that the media is "sensationalizing" the situation and some of you pooh-pooh the idea that such "sensationalism" will have any derogatory effect upon the authorities that have jurisdiction over this matter. Such might be the case if such "sensationalism" was limited to a handful of media outlets.

Unfortunately, when the Mishawaka police released the shopping center surveillance videotape to the national media, they opened the floodgates to exactly this type of news coverage.

Some of you have stated that you have neither heard nor seen any mention of Ms. Toogood's connection to the Irish Traveller community in the media to which you have access. In response, I can only say that I have found extensive coverage in several national news outlets such as the Knight-Rider News Syndicate, Associated Press, United Press International, and CNN and Fox News cable television stations. And I have watched as the stereotypical preconceptions of the Irish Travellers reflected by each of them become more evident from day to day, story to story.

It is just such "ratcheting up" of the biased and prejudicial tone of these stories that concerns me so much. One would hope that the adjudicating authorities would be immune to any influence that might be invoked by such articles and programs. However, we are all too aware that such is often not the case. The authorities are influenced by their constituents; and their constituents are definitely being influenced by the media. If you doubt that statement, simply read over the majority of posts to this thread to see how the media has affected the opinions reflected herein.

What I hope to achieve by this post is to provide educational information concerning the Irish Travellers, and to state the case that there is a legitimate concern for a fair and unprejudiced legal intercession in this matter, due to the influence of the bias evident in the national media's coverage of the situation.

I hope that you all will take the time to read the information that I have provided. I believe that there has been a rush to judgment by many in this matter; and, in consideration of the sensitivity and seriousness of the situation, it behooves us all, as members of a civilized society, to form our opinions with balanced and informed consent.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 07:21 PM

I took it, Nicole, you were suggesting that there'd been anybody saying that slapping the child was OK because it was part of the culture - which is no more (and if anything possibly even less)true of Travellers than it is of the rest of society, either in your country or mine. And I hadn't seen anybody saying anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:53 PM

Most newspapers seem to consider this a non-story. I've read one two paragraph report on the incident, which didn't even mention that she was an Irish Traveller. I've looked in U.S.A. Today today, and couldn't find any coverage. Of course, shows like Bill Reilly will cover it, because they thrive on controversy. When I've mentioned the incident to other people, none of them even heard about her being an Irish Traveler.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 06:21 PM

For #1, yes, there's been quite a bit of that in Part I. Comments about it being "normal" for her to run out on arrest warrants and it's not child abuse, it's just their culture. Those comments are as bad, IMHO, as the ones that suggest they're all thieves, because they suggest that all travellers act the same way instead of treating them as individuals.

For #2, yes, there's been a couple of uglier posts. Hence the word "most." Most of us just don't see any difference between what the police and CPS would have done with anyone else and the procedure they've followed with her.

You know, her ethinicity or lack thereof hasn't even made the news here, except on the cable stations.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST,McGRath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM

"it's also wrong to defend her crimes by falling back on the excuse that's it's just because of her culture."

Has anybody done that?

"I don't think most of us are suggesting that the prejudice doesn't or couldn't exist."

Some people have suggested precisely that. Others have demonstrated that it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 05:15 PM

Actually, M Ted, Kohl's never did "prosecute Toogood" for the alleged theft in Fort Worth, Texas. She was supposed to appear in court to face the charges brought against her in the theft, and she never showed. There is an outstanding warrant for her arrest, and since she left the state, I'm guessing she'll be extradicted back to Texas at some point to face those charges.

There is a very detailed article about Toogood and the clan of Travelers to which she belongs that migrates annually from Texas to Indiana, known as the Greenhorn Carrolls, here at the Dallas/Fort Worth/Arlington TX Star-Telegram website (click on link): http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/4117051.htm This article was published the day before Toogood turned herself in to police in Indiana.

Please note the portion of the description of Irish Travelers in the article that reads: "Most of the men make their living in home-improvement and business-repair work, such as asphalt paving, painting and roofing. Law enforcement authorities said some scam their clients in the process, but they are quick to point out that many Travellers are good, law-abiding citizens." Sounds to me like a fair acknowledgment that not all Travelers are bad or lawless people. (I guess we shouldn't stereotype the media any more than we should stereotype the Travelers!)

You'll find there, too, some information about Toogood including the fact that she has driver's licenses in four states, not just two: Indiana, Missouri, Texas and New Jersey. I'm not sure that any of them is a valid license, since one of the warrants for her arrest in Texas is for failure to pay a traffic ticket she received for driving without a valid license!

Then there's the warrant for her arrest on the theft charges. The article gives a detailed description of the scam that Toogood and her partner pulled in the Fort Worth Kohl's: "According to the police report, Gorman and the woman put several items of clothing into a shopping cart and then went to the check-out line. There, Gorman occupied the clerk by exchanging six pairs of jeans, the report stated. As the clerk dealt with the exchange, Gorman pushed the shopping cart containing the stolen items to Carroll, who pulled it to the front of the store, the report said. The women, who made no attempt to pay for the items in the shopping cart, were stopped outside the store and arrested, the report said."

So it seems that this woman isn't one of the "good, law-abiding citizens" described in the article! I've read elsewhere that at the Kohl's in Indiana on September 13th, Toogood attempted to return some articles of clothing without a store receipt, and that security cameras had tracked her movements after she left the store because it is the store's policy in cases of suspicious activity such as the receiptless-return attempt (a common scam, apparently). In fact, I read in an Indiana-based editorial column that Toogood had in fact scammed that particular store before; perhaps store security was videotaping her in order to try to gather sufficient evidence of criminal activity before arresting her. If so, they got evidence of activity, all right, though not exactly what they might have expected!

So now she's under arrest and facing prosecution. Of course, this does not mean that she should face persecution based on her ethnic/cultural origin. But regardless of her race or creed or clan, she has been arrested several times, in more than one state, and she must face prosecution for her alleged crimes. Please, let's not confuse prosecution with persecution! Let's not presume her to be guilty without the judicial process that will determine whether her acts rise to the level of criminal behavior, but on the other hand let's not downplay or dismiss what she has done simply because she belongs to an ethnic group and we want to be non-prejudicial.

Instead of being politically correct, let's be fair. And while it's not fair to condemn the entire group of Travelers because some of them are convicted criminals, it is fair to be less than blindly trusting of individuals of any race/creed/national origin who are either convicted criminals or are intimately connected with convicted criminals. I don't think it's prejudicial to be cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 05:05 PM

McGrath, I don't think most of us are suggesting that the prejudice doesn't or couldn't exist. Most of us just think that it's not a factor here. Just as it would be wrong to assume she's a criminal because of her cultural affiliation, it's also wrong to defend her crimes by falling back on the excuse that's it's just because of her culture. You can have it either way, but not both, and trying to say she's not accountable for her actions only perpetuates the stereotype.

I sympathize with *anyone* that gets caught up in a media feeding frenzy. No want would want to turn herself in under the circumstances, and the fact that she DID tells us a lot about her character. A lot more than speculation about her trying to return stolen merchandise.

Larry, I wish you much luck in getting to the truth of the matter. I may think you're dead wrong this time around, but your passion about the subject is a beautiful thing :)

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:57 PM

I first saw the video on CNN where it was described as merely a parking lot security camera video--Local authorities seemed to have decided to look for the woman only after the video had been shown on TV and questions were raised--As I understand it, at the time the woman left the state, no charges had been made, no warrants had been issued, and so she was not a fugitive--

For those who might think otherwise, I am foursquare against child abuse--If you are inclined to take some meaningful and lasting action against child abuse, send me a PM and we can talk--

It is important to remember that, whatever transgression you saw, or thought that you saw in the video--worse things are happening in your own communities, and there are things that can be done to stop it, but they take more than a few indignant posts to a music forum--

duplicate post deleted by mudelf ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 04:12 PM

I gotta run, I am on FOX in about two hours, the Bill O'Rielly show, tune in folks, quick clarification... I am not on the meter on this, I have put out a few bucks, maybe over a hud=nderd in phone and fax, because I know, and I care... so, I am not a hired gun. I have not yet taken a fee for consulting on Traveller rights, and taken only a fraction of what a paralegal gets, for consulting on Roma cases, often I do this for free and support my self doing the odd job and as a busker. BUT, I do have the requisit credentials from the third highest rated law school in the US, so that is why my opinon counts, not because I am paid to say XY and Z, and thanks and bless you MTed. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 03:53 PM

Some people seem to think that the idea that Travellers of one sort or another are liable to be treated badly by the authorities, and persecuted and discriminated against in one way another, is absurd. Or they find it athreatening idea, and deny it.

"They aren't even black, so how would,it be possible for people seeing them to even know they are Travellers in order to discriminate against them". That seems to be an idea that keeps on cropping up here.

Well, it's never stopped people persecuting Travellers of various kinds any more that it's stopped people persecuting Jews. And it's worth remembering that, alongside the better known Holocaust of European Jews, Hitler carried out a similar genocide against Europe's Travelling People, murdering hundreds of thousands in the death camps. AS with the Jews, the genocide grew out of a tradition of prejudice. And though the death camps stopped in 1945, the prejudice, and the persecution, in a more low-key style, never has stopped. In fact in some places it's getting worse.

With that kind of background, is it surprising that people are worried about "cooperating with the authorities" when one of theirs get into trouble? And suspicious of what lies behind the kind of media panic that appears to have blown up over this in America?

Nor is it surprising if a lot of them have decided that the best thing is to keep their heads down, and not be too noticeable. And that means that it is quite possible for decent people who are in no way prejudiced to go through their lives unaware of their very existence. But the people with the prejudices know. Once again, it's not unlike the situation of Jews in many places and times.

Over here this case has hardly made the papers, what with the trailers for the Iraq War and so forth. But prejudice against travelling people is common enough in England and so it is in every country in Europe. And from some of the stuff in this thread it seems pretty clear that it crossed the Atlantic and took root in the USA.

How far all this affected what's happened in this case, you'd need to know a lot more about than I do to say. But whether or not prejudice lies at the root of it, it seems to have brought quite a lot of it to the surface as it's developed.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 03:38 PM

Nerd--Kohl's seems to have prosecuted Toogood before, so they would be in a good position to know all that there is to know about her--

As to Larry, paid or not(and it is probably worth noting that in situations like this, much of the legal support comes pro bono, even if that wasn't the original arrangement)--the Judge will hear Larry's opinion, not yours or Big Mick's, or Rick Fielding's--As to what the authorities are doing or not doing, it is hard to tell what they are really doing, except for covering their own....well, you know what I mean--When the trial date comes(which will probably be as far in the future as anyone can manage) arguements may be substantially different than you might think--

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 03:25 PM

M.Ted: I read your posting and like Nerd (could I pass as a "Dweeb?") wonder where you're getting your information. It seems contrary to everything the rest of us have read. I echo Nerd's question about whether Kohl's new she was a Traveler and intentionally video taped her. (Maybe they knew because she has already been charged with shop-lifting at a Kohls?)

It is also my understanding that the video was released to the media by the Police because they weren't able to find the Mother and child and were concerned about the child's welfare. I haven't read anything to suggest that it was Kohl's decision to release it to the media. Whoever released the video did it because the mother left the scene of the crime, and family members were protecting her.

The way I read it is that a woman who is wanted for two criminal charges, who has two different drivers licenses (at least one of which must be illegal) tried to get a refund in a store that she has been caught shoplifting in, in another store in the chain, was angry that she wasn't able to get a refund, came out to the parking lot, put her little daughter in a car seat, proceeded to slap the tar out of her, and when she realized that she had been videotaped, fled the scene of the crime, nad was abbetted by her family, dyed her hair a different color and went on the lam. When she finally agreed to give herself up she filed the "I'm an Irish Traveller and you're persecuting me" defence.

I have a good friend who works at a Walmart, so I've become familiar with the scams that people use. People come into the store, take something off a shelf and bring it to the courtesy desk, say they've lost their receipt and ask for a cash refund. At Walmart, you have to check in when you enter the store and get a sticker on the item. If you come to the Courtesy desk with an item without the sticker on it, they will refuse to give you a refund. I am not saying "in all likelihood" that's what Ms. Toogood did. My sons used to remind me that a phrase like "in all likelihood" is just another way of saying that you are assuming something. And they reminded me what you do when you "assume" something.

What we need here is Jack Webb, so that we can just stick to the "facts," not the assumptions.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM

I don't get it, M.Ted. If I believe that someone is a rotten asshole and I yell at him, is my opinion of him the only one that counts because I did something? The rest of us feel that, at least for the moment, what is being done by the authorities is sufficient. That's why we're not running off to do anything.

Also, since we're not professonal advocates for the Irish Traveller community, no one is going to pay us to do anything. It is part of Larry's job to say, often and loud, that Irish Travellers are discriminated against and to use this as the basis for legal defenses. Great, more power to him. I honestly think it's important and honorable work. But I think that, from a certain standpoint, it means his opinions carry less weight than ours because they're necessarily biased. He's much like the professional experts on the other side of the issue--he could not say anything other than what he is saying and maintain his status among the Travellers and their advocacy groups as an expert to be called in when things get hot.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:52 PM

M.Ted:

Is there evidence that the people at Kohl's knew she was an Irish Traveller? Seems I missed a few stories. Where did you read that one, as I'd like to take a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:51 PM

PS--Many have commented that Larry is the odd man out on this--the truth is that, though everyone seems to agree but Larry, he is the only one who is doing anything, and so, in the end, his opinion is the only one expressed here that will carry any weight--

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 02:46 PM

Something simple is lost in all this, and that is, that had this all been a Child Protective Services and or Police Investigation child abuse investigation from the beginning, the names of the family involved and the videotape of the incident would have been kept confidential, as is required by law--If the people who made the tape had done the right thing and taken it to the police and CPS, it would have never made to the TV--

The people at Kohl's knew who Toogood was, and that she was an Irish Traveller before the incident, and, in all likelihood, that is why they made the video tape of her in the parking lot in the first place--furthermore, the fact they they chose to release the tape to the media seems to show an intent to humiliate and inflict harm rather than a desire to protect the child--

A friend involved in the child welfare legal system commented that, once the media become involved, it becomes a political issue, and all parties involved become more concerned with protecting themselves than with doing what is best for the child--meaning judges, caseworkers, doctors, therapists, etc--

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:57 PM

Dear PP:
My guilty concence got the better of me, sorry for the flip reply... what do you concider an IRA front group and why do you ask? Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 01:55 PM

In fact, I am a Gypsy baby stealer, who sold my soul to the devil in order to tell fortunes to you Gyzhen, to hypnotize you into beating your children. And, yes, I was the most wanted man in Ireland from 1833 to 2001, when things got hot for me, so I changed my skin color to blue to avoid detection. ... pass the bottle, shem. Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 11:58 AM

InOBU,

Does this question sound familiar?

"Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM

InOBU could you answer a question for me? Have you ever contributed funds or services to the IRA or its front organisations in the US ? PP

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 10:22 AM

Well, let me just say this...

Larry, while I do not agree with you on this, I do appreciate and admire that you have taken a stand on something you believe is important, and have not backed down because others disagreed. I hope that you can help the case to be resolved in a way that's beneficial to all involved.

Cheers----------- KFC

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 08:18 AM

Hi CB:

I apreciate your approach, to question what you don't know and not assume if you don't know it it does not exist. My CV, CB? (sorry could help saying that...) In the 1970's I had dropped out of an Art college to become a photo journalist and because of my family background in Irish music, I found myself covering the war in the North of Ireland. I first met Travellers at that point, and didn't know much about them, but felt a certain cultural link. I found that they were a great repository of Irish music, and though difficult to get to know, when you did, they were interesting and loyal friends, unpredicable and always good for a laugh.

When I hitched up with the woman who is with me, now my wife, she did not want me to cover wars any more, and I put more and more into my studies of Irish culture, becoming the founder of a historical society which preserved Irish maritime history. At this time, I spent about 10 years travelling about Ireland learning about Currach building and mostly travelling on foot with my wife, and getting by through the traditions taught me by my continued and continuing contact with travellers. I would set out with a small ruck sack of clothes and my pipes, at first war pipes, busk my way up and down the coast of Ireland.

During that time, I first experienced, personally, the discrimination against Travellers, when I, sometimes mistaken for a Traveller, was not served in public accomodations.

In the late 1980's a racisit event to do with racing Irish currachs, in the US, sent me back to college then to law school. In law school, I was contacted by American Indian friends, (another long story) and was asked to help with issues that led to my work in Federal Indian Law.

In my last years of law school, I was already becomeing known among Fed Indian law practitioners, working in recognition of unrecognised Indian nations. During this time I was contacted by a Romani Kristiory (judge) and asked to help secure rights for his people. This led to an intence time of study and work, where I learned conversational Romaness, the language of Eastern European "Gypsies...".

In looking at discrimination against Roma in the US, I was contacted by and took up as part of the same fight, people who were racialised as Gypsies, Irish Travellers in the south and western US. I did field work among, for example the Irish Travellers of Murphy Village, where I met wonderful caring people, and found that there are still laws, such as the one in the county next to them which unambigously states, "Gypsies are not permmited in the county.".

That is the introduction to my expertese, in my capsity as a political scientist working on these issues I became known to, and have been told, respected for my knowlege of the subject, by folklorists and sociologists, and hisotrians working in these communities, who I have brought into rights cases defending these people.

I continue to coordinate rights cases, and often I am contacted when cases turn bad due to prejudice. My colleagues and I are often contacted late, for two reasons. First, Travellers and Roma try to avoid the subject thinking that they can fight the simple issue, like an aligation of child abuse, but soon in most cases, it turns into a defense of their right to be who they are...

I have to get off line, but this is the story in brief.

Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 12:23 AM

Boy, was I being dim or what? I thought that the original thread referred to people travelling about the US from other countries being subjected to abuse, say at the hands of the Law or something.

I guess I know who Travellers are but if there is any kind of discrimination practiced against them or gypsies it's news to me. As for the declaration that security types have "what to do in the case of a visit by Gypsies" posted somewhere... that defies both imagination and belief. I've never seen anything like that anywhere, never heard anyone in contract security or police work ever mention anything even remotely like that.

I saw the tape. She went off! She slapped that kid silly. She has three other kids as well. She was, what 26! She's certainly stressed out and the kids might well be the focus.

Toogood is an interesting name, like Livingood (transmission repair service)here in Franklin county. I figured that it could be Native American. How did we all find out that Ms Toogood is a traveller? How did we find out that she is being discriminated against because she is a traveller? Who are you InObu?, what are your bonafides as regards traveller or Gypsy discrimination? PM me if you want. As a fairly typical midwesterner, I might just be green but, I always thought that Gypsies were cool people, having these little storefront businesses up there in Chicago. Clue me in, please?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 08:43 PM

This thread is full of nice people who seem to me to be largely missing the point; and every now and again some not so nice people feeling free to let the mask slip. And those bloody experts:

"Law enforcement authorities say that some Irish Travellers are experienced con artists, but that many are law-abiding citizens."

Which of course is perfectly true - as it would be equally true if you replaced "Irish Travellers" with "Jews" or "Black Americans", or "White Americans" or folk singers...

Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:45 PM

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" seems an appropriate suggestion in this whole situation.

Only trouble is, I suspect there are some people around who would take that as an invitation to start throwing stones.

Subject: Traveller Discrimination in USA - Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:40 PM

This thread was so long some people wouldn't be able to load it.