Killed by the PEL system Part 2

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: GUEST,Pavane
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:18 AM

I understood that even the 'two in a bar' rule has different interpretations, none of which have been tested in court.

I.e. two in total, or two at a time?

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:36 PM

Two of what? *Smiles*

The recent London (Toye) case with the karaoke issue may have settled that one? The answer in that case was two in total.

It looks like all our problems could be over. See this thread.

PEL problems in Hull

No PEL problems in Hull? This good news obviously does not extend to North Lincolnshire. It certainly does not stretch to the Blue Bell in Helpston (Peterborough).

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:12 AM

Last night (Monday 16 December) a licensing officer from West Dorset Council (tel [phone]), prevented a mummers play in two pubs in the village of Cerne Abbas.

Claiming these to consist of more than two performers in a public entertainment and illegal without a Public Entetainment Licence.

This performance was advertised in the local paper, the Dorset Evening Echo.
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:12 PM

Mummers play stopped at Cerne Abbas

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:19 PM

This recently posted on uk.music.folk.

Folks the article about the closure of Ely Folk Club and its 3 year
fight against the local council is here.

http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/letters/ElyFolkClub.html

If you want to copy it and add it your archive, feel free to do so.

Alternatively you can read it here. This takes the form of a cutting
from a local newspaper at the time, followed by my own comments on what remains of the folk club (which kind of rose from the grave about 9 months after Ruth had had enough).

Club forced to move as councillors play on

Thats all folks!

Council officials have folk musicians out of an Ely pub for playing
without a license but have let the show go on for two councillors just four miles up the road.

Double standards left Ely Folk Club out in the cold, while the Red Rose - run by two Labour councillors - played on at pubs in Sutton and Mepal.

They could be prosecuted for entertaining in a public place without a
license but, despite their advertising throughout the area, no action
has been taken by East Cambridgeshire District Council.

At the same time, Ely Folk Club has been driven out of the city, vowing never to return, after being thrown out of the Cutter Inn. They were told to leave just two days before visiting musicians were due to play and had to make last minute bookings at the Ely Maltings.

But the Red Rose - whose members include Labour councillors Graham
Steward and Dil Owen is still playing at the unlicensed Three Pickerels in Mepal and the Chequers in Sutton. They do not operate a members only policy and entertain drinkers at the pubs' bars.

Ely Folk Club entertainments officer Ruth Bramley said: "Ely has lost
its folk club. This is our sixth move in three years. We are being
chased around Ely because venues are not suitable or owners lose their licenses. We saw almost seven and a half years work go down the drain in two days. Luckily the Maltings stepped in and bent over backwards to help us. We have had enough of it. This is a grey area in the law which needs clarifying."

The 200 strong club claims it was told it could operate within the law if it was run on a members-only basis in a private room at the back of a pub not open to the public. But last week a temporary manager at the Cutter Inn told them to leave after a visit from a council officer who warned him that the pub did not have an entertainments license. For the last five months members had to met each Wednesday night to listen to visiting bands including big names, among them Show of Hands, who filled the Albert Hall at a recent concert.

Now it has moved to the Shoulder of Mutton in Witchford, which has an
entertainments license, but warned that if forced to move on, the club will shut.

Ely has lost up to 40 entertainment venues in recent years because
owners struggle to meet the licensing laws or keep trade bouyant. Red
Rose founder guitarist Graham Steward and Cllr Owen who plays the
Bodhran Irish drum, meet fortnightly at both pubs and have been inviting drinkers to join in with an old fashioned sing-a-long for the last two years.

Cllr Steward said: "This law is very clumsy. I think the Ely Folk Club contributed a lot to the life in Ely. There are lots of local groups who play just for the love of it and if there is going to be a purge the cultural life of Cambridgeshire will be the worse for it. We asked publicans to let us play for their worst night of trade and we bring in up to 30 people on an evening when they would have just a handful in the bar. It helps the pubs and the community and is good fun. But no publican could afford to pay £150 a year for a license for just 10 evenings entertainment a year. If this question were raised in Ireland they would be a revolution."

Cllr Owen said: "The council is taking a heavy handed approach with
regards to regulations without looking at each event on its merits as a result of the bureaucratic society we live in, which does not allow for flexibility. We ought to find a smoother way of executing the
regulations.
This is bureaucratic nonsense."

Both he and Cllr Steward said they would raise the issue as a matter of urgency within council committees.

ADeC trustee and Ely Forum member Terry Overall organises musical events all over the district. He said: "I am extremely annoyed about this. I think the council should have given the club some breathing space. There are a lot of new venues attempting to open up and I hope the licensing authorities will be lenient with them."

East Cambridgeshire District Council's environmental services manager
Steve Clements said: "Now that the Standard has brought our
attention that the Red Rose folk club is allegedly putting on musical
events in a public house which does not have an entertainments license we will be looking into the matter. The council is certainly not a kill-joy, but quite the opposite. The law says that if you are providing public music or dancing in licensed premises and there are more than two entertainers you need a license. You are breaking the law and can be prosecuted for operating without an entertainments license."

He added that Ely Folk Club was given advice by the council on how to
operate as a members only club but failed to apply for the necessary
magistrates' license. But members claim they were not told they needed a magistrates' license, and when they found out they were not given time to apply. Mrs Bramley added: "Its too late now. The council has burnt its bridges. They have lost it and we won't return to Ely. We were bringing in good audiences but we need to stand firm.

Postscript

I live in Sutton, and know both the councillors, Ruth and Terry
mentioned in this story. The councillors completely oppose the local
authorities activities relating to music and inform me that this is
driven (unbeleivably enough) by the Liberal Democrat dominated local
council.

As to the magistrates' license: We were most certainly not informed that we needed one.

At one public meeting several people voiced the opinion that the council had a vendetta against the folk club (I cannot recall the exact form of words, this was several years ago).

I was so angry at the closure of the club, that I went to see the
council official responsible for the crackdown the next morning. His name is Mr Gary Jennings. He has since moved on to some other area of council work.

He was very polite and efficient at informing exactly which act (year, section, subsection etc) they were using against the folk club.
However when pressed for details of local venues which had suitable
licenses he seemed rather reluctant to tell me. I mentioned this to Ruth Bramley, she stated she'd had a similar conversation with him in the past. Why this would be I don't know. As the officer responsible for enforcement one would think that he would be intimately familiar with such information. Draw your own conclusions.

There is some other stuff that I can't comment on in detail publicly
which indicates that the council almost certainly had people attending the folk club to find out what we were going to do next. Who they/he/she are/were I have no idea. Either that or some very extreme coincidences have happened.

The folk club lives on, in severly muted form. It meets occasionally,
and as such has much smaller attendence. It also has to meet in the only suitable venue, the overly formal conference room, up a set of stairs and nowhere near the bar or toilets.

Much of my social life involves individuals that worked in other
departments for this council, and that like folk music. They were
horrified at what their own employer is doing. All of them now work for other councils.

The Red Rose folk club still runs in Sutton and Mepal, and also in two other villages. Graham Steward is no longer a councillor. Dil Owen stood for MP (in the safest Conservative seat in the country!). Dil's wife is now a councillor.

(For those that followed the IR35 fiasco, both Graham and Dil thought
IR35 was wrong, as implemented).

Stephen Kellett

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM

The New Star session R.I.P.

The point about this one (see the thread for details), is it was only the letter on its own that was enough to prevent this long-running event. It was never visited to establish if the activity was licesable or the activity was specifcally exempt fom the licensing requirement.

That is why I was alway banging on to the councillors about the risk presented to these events. It is gone and the council don't have any revenue from any PEL.

A no win situation............for anyone.

It would be helpful if you could send your thoughts on this to the council and local paper, I feel we must at least try to ensure that this does not happen anywhere again.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:39 AM

The Sloop, Waterside, Barton on Humber is having problems they had a visit from the PEL inspectors on Tuesday.see thread "Music Police raid the sloop, barton.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

Music police raid The Sloop

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 12:33 PM

From the BBC Radio 2 message board.

This was submitted by 'Danny' to 'The Session' messageboard:

2 in a bar rule. I'd heard about this, but thought it was just a nasty urban myth, the kind of thing Mammy and Daddy traditional players tell their kids will happen to them if they don't do their practice.

But it ludicrously manifested itself upon a local session of ours, The Duke of Edinburgh, last night (Wed.) I never made it myself to the sesh, as I had a family commitment, but I had just got an email from Cath, fiddle player. Apparently, someone has grassed the Duke to Lewisham Council (we have our suspicions who). The council then threatened that Michael the governor would lose his drinks licence, so he has had to apply for a music licence, costing £600, then pay another £600 when he gets it, in 28 days time. "

....In the meantime, **no more than 2 musicians are allowed to play at any time.** Well, in the end we had a really good fun session. ...." So, to reiterate, the idea is that a whole bunch of sessioneers sit round as per a normal session, but only two of them are allowed to play at any one time!

I heard it happened at an English session in Greenwich, just up the road, but thought it was just Greenwich council were a bunch of meanies. It would be funny except Michael has had to fork out £1200. That makes us feel a good deal more committed to turning up and supporting the session. Has this bizarre situation visited anyone else in the UK? Any comments?

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: ET
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 04:46 PM

The Sloop in Barton formed a club after a Madame from the local council complained. She said it needed frosted glass to prevent the public (a chap in the corner who watched TV) being entertained. The fire officer said it needed clear glass. The BBC had an item on Look North. There then followed raids by Food Hygeine People, OK, Fire, OK except frosted glass and Electrical people who found a fault and shut the place down. It is hard to beat a local authority hell bent on killing culture. Maybe we should invite George Bush in! He's good at doing away with killjoys. They could then go to Afganistan and join the Taliban.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 03:47 AM

The-Sloop-Barton,sessions,have,ended.
The,new,landlord,reckons,he,can't,afford,a,PEL.
There,is,one,BIG,session,planned,for,next,Tuesday.
after,that,musicians,are,no,longer,welcome.
Though,it,is,hoped,that,they,can,find,a,new,venue,soon.
See,SkipjackK8,for,further,details.

very,sad,news,as,The-Sloop,session,was,the,best,in,the,area
and,people,travelled,from,allover,the,,place,to,go.
The,session,was,always,well,attended,and,had,been,
running,for,many,years.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 05:55 AM

So are you kicking up a public fuss about this, or just rolling over and playing dead?

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 06:07 AM

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 06:12 AM

From the Commons Standing Commitee on the (then) Licensing Bill April 1st 2003.

Jim Knight:

I would not have become interested in the subject if it were not for Roger Gall, a constituent of mine, who lives on Portland, where there is a folk jamming session on a Friday night in a pub called the Cone House Inn. It became known that the landlord was comfortable with people coming along on a Friday night and playing their music. These sessions were not advertised. Such an event, which is not advertised or actively encouraged, may be a passive part of the atmosphere of the pub, and it may begin to build up business and become a substantial attraction and profit maker for the publican. Would the Minister regard such an activity as one that should be regulated under the Bill?

Dr. Howells:

It seems that that is largely a spontaneous activity, to which people turn up occasionally, and it seems also that the word has spread that people can hear some nice music. However, as the hon. Gentleman says, the licensee does not spend money on advertising. If it is clear that music is being played in the corner of the pub, that would be incidental in my book. I do not know whether that gives him any comfort.

Often, if it is intended that the everyday meaning of a term be used in legislation, it must be judged commensurate to the circumstances of each case. I know that that has drawn some guffaws from Opposition Members, but I hope that the combination of the term ''incidental'' and the explanation that I have tried to give, taken together with the guidance that the Department will issue, will be sufficient to ensure that licensing authorities give due consideration to whatever music is being performed.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 05:36 PM

Useful straws in the wind, and we must hope that the actual guidelines incorporate them.

Firstly it is encouraging to see that the term "spontaneous" here was being used by Howells in what I would say is the correct sense, as meaning something which happens which involves people acting on their accord, and not in the sense a lot of people have pessimistically assumed it should mean - doing something on the spur of the moment without any previous intention. That would indicate that worries that bringing instruments to a session would mean it could not be classed as spontaneous.

Secondly, I was pleased to see the bit where he referred to the fact that "the licensee does not spend money on advertising" as relevant. That would seem to indicate that advertising and publicity organised by musicians and so forth would not stop a session counting as "incidental."

But the man had a bloody nerve talking about "the everyday meaning of a term" in relation to "incidental music", when the only everyday meaning of the term up to now had been the music that gets played in the background in films and so forth.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 05:37 PM

So? The fact that Roger got a name check on April Fool's Day didn't seem to encourage the landlord of the Sloop to risk his license in court.

Get on the wrong side of the local authority and they can always find something to get a landlord for. See Eyes passim regarding the landlord who was imprisoned on a dubious hygene charge after banning a local councillor

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 05:53 PM

Barring some local councillors would be a hygienic actiin in itself,

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 02:41 AM

The point about this is that whether this licensee wishes to continue or not - must be a matter for them and there may be good reason why they may not.

However there is nothing preventing the many supporters of these sessions from making sure that sessions in this form - can take place in other premises now, under current legislation and the new - without advanced permission from the licensing authority.

I would suggest that they simply must do this - as without concerted and continuing local efforts - the little progress that has been gained over the past two years - in trying to enable sessions etc - is in danger of being lost.

It is interesting that Howells - when he was the Minister- considered the example he quoted as 'incidental' and 'spontanous' - so this does provide enough ammunition to tackle any official who would wishes to impose a different view.

It would appear that the local authority concerned here does wish to impose a different view - if so this MUST be challenged. Not by banning councillors but by making them work to represent the views and wishes of those who elect them and holding policies that reflect this. It is a bit like 'pulling teeth' but vital to keep on trying..........

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 03:04 AM

Here's something that may be of use. According to page 118 of the act (page 129 of Acrobat) indoor sports will need licensing. I've added the relevant text below:-

Indoor sporting events

16 (1)An "indoor sporting event "is a sporting event —
(a)which takes place wholly inside a building,and
(b)at which the spectators present at the event are accommodated
wholly inside that building.
(2)In this paragraph —
"building "means any roofed structure (other than a structure with a
roof which may be opened or closed)and includes a vehicle,vessel
or moveable structure,
"sporting event " means any contest,exhibition or display of any sport, and "sport " includes —
(a)any game in which physical skill is the predominant factor,
and
(b)any form of physical recreation which is also engaged in for
purposes of competition or display.

So you see , any pub which is going to hold a contest for darts, pool, skittles and the such like should seriously think about including live music, as they're going to have to tick the box for indoor sports anyway. Also for unamplified music there is the following which could help sessions etc as the council cannot impose onerous conditions. It can be found on page 100 of the act (page 111 of Acrobat):

Dancing and live music in certain small premises
(1)Subsection (2)applies where —
(a)a premises licence authorises —
(i)the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises,and
(ii)the provision of music entertainment,and
(b)the premises —
(i)are used primarily for the supply of alcohol for consumption on
the premises,and
(ii)have a permitted capacity of not more than 200 persons.
(2)At any time when —
(a)the premises —
(i)are open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol
for consumption on the premises,and
(ii)are being used for the provision of music entertainment,and
(b)subsection (4)does not apply,
any licensing authority imposed condition of the premises licence which relates to the provision of music entertainment does not have effect,in relation to the provision of that entertainment,unless it falls within subsection (5)or (6).
()Subsection (4)applies where —
(a)a premises licence authorises the provision of music entertainment,and
(b)the premises have a permitted capacity of not more than 200 persons.
(4)At any time between the hours of 8 a.m.and midnight when the premises —
(a)are being used for the provision of music entertainment which consists
of —
(i)the performance of unamplified,live music,or
(ii)facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment
within sub-paragraph (i),but
(b)are not being used for the provision of any other description of
regulated entertainment, any licensing authority imposed condition of the premises licence which relates to the provision of the music entertainment does not have effect,in relation to the provision of that entertainment,unless it falls within subsection
(6).
(5)A condition falls within this subsection if the premises licence specifies that the licensing authority which granted the licence considers the imposition of the condition necessary on one or both of the following grounds —
(a)the prevention of crime and disorder,
(b)public safety.
(6)A condition falls within this subsection if,on a review of the premises licence — (
a)it is altered so as to include a statement that this section does not apply to it,or
(b)it is added to the licence and includes such a statement.

Aren't our lawmakers wonderful people

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 04:46 AM

Will pub quiz nights need a license - especially as the question master often uses a PA ?

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 04:02 AM

this,goverment,is,a,big,load,of,shit
too,mant,stupid,rulews.john

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 08:06 AM

PEL stops session in Cheshire

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM

Star and Garter Greenwich UK

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

The participants from the New Star session found a home (for a time) in The Boot. This session has now also been prevented by Weymouth and Portland Borough Council, for lack of a PEL.

Details on the following thread.

The New Star session RIP

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:59 AM

See also

New session venue required in Sheffield

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:09 AM

And this one.

For the session closed at The Palm Tree

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:49 PM

Update on the Palm sesh

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 09:49 AM

From this Saturday's Gloucestershire Echo.

PARTY, BUT ONLY WITH A LICENCE
Gloucestershire Echo (www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk)
10:30 - 10 July 2004


Ipek Williamson made sure her guests were well looked after at her charity
garden party.


As they nibbled on scones and sipped cups of tea on the lawn, a jazz band
entertained them. At the end of the afternoon, the widow had £160 in the
coffers for cancer charities.


But she hadn't banked on an eagle-eyed Cotswold District Council official
who spotted her event advertised in the village newsletter - and sent her a
£170 bill for a public entertainment licence.


Fifty villagers in Kempsford, near Cirencester, turned up for Mrs
Williamson's party, part of the National Gardens Scheme, complete with teas
and a jazz band.


But Cotswold District Council insisted the event must be licensed.


As a result, instead of handing £160 to charities including Macmillan Cancer
Relief and Marie Curie Cancer Care, Mrs Williamson was left £10 out of
pocket.


She said: "It seems to be totally arbitrary to why they ask for a licence in
some cases and in others they don't.


"We must have someone in the village who reports on these things. It's a
nanny state."


Mrs Williamson says the jazz band she hired for the event has played in
scores of other gardens around the county without being subject to a
licence.


She has now been forced to cancel a jazz dinner and doubts have been cast
over holding a similar fundraising open garden event in August.


"I'm hoping we can go ahead without a licence," she said.


Cotswold District Council's chief licensing officer, Alison Brown, defended
the authority's stance.


"It's national legislation that requires all public events with music, dance
or similar things, held indoors or outdoors to get a public entertainment
licence," she said.


"The fee covers consultations we make with agencies such as the police, fire
service and noise experts."


National Gardens Scheme organiser for Gloucestershire, Stella Martin said:
"It's a bureaucracy gone mad."

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:22 PM

The following was posted on the Action for Music list.

Thursday, 26 August 2004 1905 hrs.

At around 1630 today, John Priest (JP) the landlord of the free house hotel The Fox in Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, has been contacted by West Oxfordshire District Council (WODC), advising him that he is not allowed to host more than two performers of live music at once on his premises without having previously acquired a £200 annual license (precise name of license not known).

The WODC representative who rang JP cited Chipping Norton Folk Club (The Chipping Norton Heritage & Traditional Music Club aka Chipping Norton Folk Club), which meets 2nd Monday of the month in the Fox Hotel in that town. We use a 'lounge bar' area with a closed door. £10 per year membership allows free entry to a sing-around. £1.00 is charged at the door for non-members. If we have a professional guest we may vary those charges and in that case paid up members receive a £1.00 discount off the door fee), and Chipping Norton Jazz Day as being relevant to The Fox.

(They wanted £100 for a 2-plus live performance at the CHARITY Jazz Day on 12th September, but JP has arranged with Mike Howes, the organiser of the Jazz Day to limit performers accordingly).

JP was concerned on Folk Club's behalf: he told WODC that he was not always aware of how many perform simultaneously at Folk Club, or whether they were paid professionals or not; they were not interested in such detail. JP must get back to them by Tuesday coming. He is very happy for a Folk Club representative to speak to WODC direct: Andrea Thomson 01993 861637. (This may be done).

Folk club rep assured JP that Folk Club would make sure he was always watertight.

Our immediate concern is for:

September Folk Club (Singaround).

FOLK ALL AROUND (FAA)*, folk day, Friday 24th September Pre Folk Day Ice-breaker Singaround.
FAA Charity afternoon slot in the Fox 25th September.

Claydon (prob sextet), at October folk club meeting.

Other people's input i.e. joining in with chorus etc.

How to organise a proper response to WODC.

* FAA is in its third year, a day of music and dance on Saturday 25th September. Guests this year are all in C/N Town Hall with a licence but Sarum Morris are going street dancing - could be a problem?

JP has volunteered a 50:50 split on the £200. But we're not even sure that WODC are right - and almost certain that they aren't right in the medium/long term.

Suggestions or free legal representation, please?

Bill Long

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:19 AM

Obit Sam Smiths and LIVE music

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:28 AM

White Horse FC (Nellies)

This may be thought to be stretch a point - as this move was directly due to the refusal of Sam Smiths to pay for the PPL/PRS etc licence. But the lack of this licence does not prevent all (non copyright) music.

However, as a result - the 200 pubs involved are rather unlikely (even thought this will cost no extra to the Premises Licence (required from 7th February 2005) to apply for entertainment permission. The lack of which will prevent any live music.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: ET
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 04:33 PM

On Channel 4 tonight was an excellent 30 minute programme called "We are all criminals now". It was about the wealter of legislation, rules and regulations and the army of busyboides that back them up - getting worse by the day - did you know it was an offence to despose of office paper in a domestic dustbin - presumably some official will be round inspecting you bin!

The programme concluded, rightly, that the English, who are generally law abiding, will be so sick of being criminalised for no purpose, will envetually rise up against this!   I have e-mailed the programme pointing out additional offences - pub pianos being played without a licence for example or darts matches to entertain without a licence.

The programme pointed out that it could not get government ministers to acknowledge this flood of legislation - much of it is cast down to local authorities whose petty officials run amoke!

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:22 PM

I spoke to a local police inspector this week - to report my Council for breaking the criminal law. He said that it was not a matter for the police. I asked him who it was a matter for and he said that he did not know.

The senior officers of my Council have alway acted as if they made, and were above the law - they obviously knew something I didn't.......

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 04:28 AM

Subject: Cornish Session Dies
From: Bo
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 02:00 AM

I'm very sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I have to inform you all that another informal regular session has died.
The Cheesewring at Minions, the highest pub in Cornwall, has been hosting a monthly session for over two years but the local council have applied the rules of "Two In A Bar" and the session has stopped.
It was never a big session but we loved it and I met many new pals along the way.
I suspect that the other S.E. Cornwall sessions will follow; the Caradon Inn, Linkinhorn and Liskeard's Fountain.
The Sterts session still lives!
I will hope to be able to bring good news in the future.

http://207.103.108.99/thread.cfm?threadid=78013&messages=4

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 04:37 AM

ET,
   I agree wholeheartedly agree with that assessment of the current state of England, the nanny state and Europe have   
taken over. It's time to emigrate.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: BB
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 03:53 PM

Shambles, has this been posted on the MU site existing for that purpose?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: ET
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

The PEL system and the 2 in a bar rule should be killed itself by the Licensing Act 2003 which comes into force next week - a six months transition period. The publican just declares in his operaing schedule that he intends to have regulated entertainment and ought to say what it is otherwise the locals will be up in arms thinking its heavy rock at 3 am!

There is a large fuss at the moment on extending drinking hours and Tessa Jowell looked decidedly nervous on TV tonight on the subject. No mention of course on the effect on music of needing a licence indoors or out.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:01 AM

Shambles, has this been posted on the MU site existing for that purpose?

Kevin's idea to collect all of these accounts on this these two threads - came before the MU thought-up the idea for their forms.

I have not gone through these threads to ensure that an MU form is filled in for each example. I have no idea if anyone else has done this or if the MU has just ignored the list here................It would be sad and a more than a little short-sighted if the MU (folk section) did not incorporate these examples in to its own listing.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 05:12 AM

Licensing review - can you help the MU?

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: BB
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM

ET, I understand that the publican *has* to say in his operating schedule what entertainment he's putting on and when. I fear that clubs and sessions getting thrown out of pubs, for whatever reason, are going to find it well nigh impossible to find another venue for the simple reason that the landlord of said venue would have to pay to have a new entertainment added to his schedule. And how many are going to be prepared to do that? Added to which, even if he or the club/session was prepared to pay, how long would that take?

This seems to me to be perhaps the greatest long term threat involved in the new regulations.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 07:02 AM

This was posted by Wendy on uk.music.folk.

I heard tonight that the Claygate FC (The Ram) had to cancel last Friday at four hours' notice over not having a PEL.

No more details than that, unfortunately, and I don't know if it will be resolved by this coming Friday.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:01 AM

href=http://www.morecambetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=34&ArticleID=947142

The following from the above webste.

EVERY Monday afternoon, senior citizens from all over the north of England gather at the Pier Hotel in Morecambe for an Old Time Music Hall sing-song. An organist and vocalist from Blackpool belt out all the old tunes to entertain the pensioners, some of whom have travelled from as far afield as Southport and Yorkshire to enjoy their weekly sing-along. But when the regulars gathered around the piano for this week's trip down memory lane, a mood of frustrated confusion replaced the usual feelings of nostalgia.

Management at the Pier were recently told by council licensing officers that this old-fashioned afternoon's entertainment may have to stop – because when the elderly folk get up to sing along it's classed as karaoke and the Pier does not have an entertainments licence.

"It's absolutely ridiculous," said Janet Kirk, licensee at the Pier. "They threatened me with a £20,000 fine, so I've had to tell the people they can't get up to sing. "It's a shame because they absolutely adore it." Janet said she plans to apply for an entertainments licence - but it will cost. "It will be £315 up front and then the council will have to come out to see if I need to spend more on any work on the pub that may need doing," she said.
"I don't know how they expect us to run a business when they charge this amount."

A regular customer of the Pier's Old Time Music Hall afternoon said: "I was horrified to hear that the Monday sing-a-long may have to stop. "I understand Jan Kirk accepts the limitations placed on her for her weekend entertainment, where only singers not using backing tapes are allowed to play. "But the Old Time Music Hall is a great day out for a lot of older people and I always thought karaoke was where you mimed or sang to backing tapes and read the words off a TV screen. "It's just typical, here is someone in Morecambe offering good old fashioned seaside entertainment and the council want to put a stop to it."

Despite the outcry, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. A spokesperson for the council said: "Music and singing generally requires a public entertainment licence. "However, there is an exemption under the Licensing Act 1964 for premises with a Justices' licence (like the Pier Hotel). Such premises do not require a public entertainment licence for public entertainment by way of music and singing only, which is provided solely by the reproduction of recorded sound, or by not more than two performers. "A singalong with more than two performers would fall outside this exemption." In other words, if only one of the senior citizens wants to get up to sing along with the pianist, that is perfectly fine, as long as it's the same person for the duration of the performance. But if two or more people got up to sing, then the Pier would risk a hefty fine.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:03 AM

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/graham.gurrin/ram/

[The following from the above website.]

You may have heard that the Ram Club was cancelled last Friday (Feb 18) virtually without notice. Please accept our apologies, especially those who hadn't heard before setting off for the club not least our intended guests for the night, The Expatriate Game (Duck Baker, Maggie Boyle and Ben Paley.

We greatly appreciated everyone's forbearance. As regulars will know, the Ram Club enjoys the full support of Jeremy and Diane Marley as landlords and managers of the Foley Arms; and they too have apologised for last Friday's cancellation.

But the show must go on and the headline news, we are glad to say, is that we shall re-open this Friday, February 25.

As regards last Friday, the unfortunate position was that we didn't find out ourselves until 5pm that Elmbridge Council had threatened that afternoon to bring a prosecution if the folk club went ahead without the Foley Arms/Young's Brewery holding the appropriate music licence. Jeremy & Diane Marley were away and, faced with the threat, the deputy managers and Young's Brewery were unable to risk the gig going ahead.

The issues relate to enforcement of current entertainment rules, and changes in licensing arrangements to be phased in over the next 6 months and which mean all live entertainment will have to be licensed (this supersedes the so-called "2 in a bar" rule, of which some may have heard). We are in negotiations with Elmbridge Council, the Foley Arms and Young's Brewery to resolve these issues as quickly as practicable.

Meanwhile, the club will operate as close to normal as possible and continue playing host to some of the finest folk and acoustic acts around. This Friday (Feb 25), we have two utterly fantastic guitarists, STEVE NEWMAN & TONY COX, on a rare visit from South Africa. The following week we have former LINDISFARNE singer and guitarist ROD CLEMENTS. We hope you will continue to support the club and live music in general "The times they are a-changing".

Regards and renewed apologies to all those who were inconvenienced and disappointed last Friday from Bob, Maggie, Ian, Amanda, Steve, Diane and the rest.