Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST

Subject: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Sep 02 - 09:45 PM

Hiya gang, I am being intervied on the bill o'rielly show on FOX cable news to be played at 11 pm, and tommorow on CNN about the Toogood case, tune in to see what's up. CHeers, Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 12:27 AM

Do you know what time tomorrow on CNN, Larry? Sorry I missed this evening's.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:44 AM

Larry, you're still wrong. ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:55 AM

I did catch it, and, you did a good job. O'Rielly is a bigmouth who asks a question, then runs his mouth while the guest is trying to answer. Sort of a militant Oprah. I understand your point, but, in my opinion, this is an abusive mother from a criminal family, and she should lose that little girl. Being a traveller has nothing to do with it; she is a monster all on her own.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 07:17 AM

Hi Kendall: I am off to Chicago this afternoon, after which time I may be able to tell you all something, that I would love to make public at this time. As to her being part of a criminal family, frankly, compared to many families, including the family of George Bush, I think they are not that bad. Two felony's on the husband's part for overcharging as a contractor? One felonly shop lifting and one unpaid traffic ticket on the mothers part? Overcharging for a non- Traveller contractor is a civil tort, for a Traveller it is a crime. We are seeing what we are told to see. The doctors ALL disagree with the language that this was a beating and child abuse. It was an ugly thing to do that she should have not done, next week you will know why it happened. It was not becase she was a violent criminal person. She is an intelligent, gentle, and loving mother. How many of us have had the worst moment in our life on film?
I don't know if I can get back on line today to let you all know what time CNN is... but if I can I will, and I will keep you all appraised. We folk singers often find ourselves sheding light for the folks with no voice.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:44 AM

It will be interesting to hear what you have to say that will justify what I saw.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:26 AM

Art, me too.

Kendall, me too. So far, other attempts at justification haven't worked. I agree with you about O'Rielly, too. My opinion is that he's a jerk AND clueless. (He seemed to indicate he'd never heard of Irish Travelers before this and was still in the dark - probably because he never shuts up long enough to learn anything.)

My interpretation of the interview, seen at around 8:30 PM last night:

Larry said (and please correct me if I've interpreted it wrong) that there was no justification for what Toogood had done (oddly different than what he's saying here), but removing the child from the ehtnic community was wrong.

O'Rielly then went on to say something like "Ethnic community, what ethnic community. I'm Irish, and I've never heard of...blah blah"

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:29 AM

I sent him an e mail telling him: You are an opinionated bigmouth who lacks manners. You shout down and talk over guests like they were children. I can't stand you.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:44 AM

I can't stand O'Reilly, either. Larry, the father of this child has a history of ripping off elderly people, some of whom are here in Montana (the town of Whitefish) where he deliberately, by his own admission, overcharged for roofing and skipped town. His "excuse" is that all the men in his family work that way. His traveller background has nothing to do with it. He has a pattern of committing fraud and I wish you were thinking more clearly about who really is the victim in this case.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 12:23 PM

Any info on the CNN appearance Larry?

Rick

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 12:52 PM

What time are you on, Larry? I want to see you, and I missed last night. You might be squeezed out, because today, the Democrats are presenting the case against going to war in Iraq, and that might knock this out of the public eye, which would be a very good thing--

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:10 PM

I understand Larry, that you have withheld information from us, which you are now excitedly awaiting the opportunity to share with Mudcatters. How come you didn't share the fact that the Mother was convicted of shoplifting, and evading traffic tickets, that the Father has also been convicted of fraud. You let the image stand of an upstanding young Mother who just slapped her kid, but otherwise was clean as a whistle, until the media released the information about her and her husband's police records. I assume that the information you're dying to share with us is considered positive. How much other negative information have you neglected to share with us that would weaken your contention that this is simply a case of discrimination? When you only release information that you feel supports your case and withhold the negative information, you lose all credibility as an objective person.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:18 PM

Damn, I missed the Fox interview. Even though I HATE it when unremarkable, regional stories like this are turned into national news (men caught in mine, child murdered by neighbor, Elian Gonzales, etc.), I am glad you're out there speaking about such an important aspect of this case, Larry. Hope to catch the CNN interview...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: annamill
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:31 PM

Ok, O'Reilly may be more stupid than just not knowing what an Irish Traveler is. I wouldn't call him stupid JUST because he doesn't know.

Of course, I may be stupid also, but, I still would like to know

What IS an Irish Traveler??

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM

I'm not an admirer of O'Reilly myself but I watch his program fairly regularly. I was not at home last night, though, and missed last night's program. I would like to see the CNN appearance though Larry, if you will post the time when you know it.

Your continued defense of the couple mystiefies me, Larry. It's like you don't believe what is apparent on the video. She abused that child, and her being arrested had nothing to do with her being Irish, Irish Traveler, or anything else.

If your statement comparing the criminal record of the Bush family with the record of this family was not so ridiculous I would have something to say about that too.

You shouldn't let your hatred of the Bush family get in the way of reason, Larry.

DougR

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Áine
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM

Dear Annamill,

Please read my post here in the 'Traveller Discrimination in US-Part II" thread, where I provide several links to informational websites that will answer your question.

And thank you for your interest and request for information.

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 01:54 PM

One if the things that has been very noticeable in the threads we've had about terrorism and so forth is the way many people seem to find it very hard to draw any distiction between trying to explain things and tryin to justify them.

And that same difficulty in recognising that distinction is cropping up here. It is not the same thing to explain why something happens and to justify it happening. Even when you disagree with an explanation, that is no reason to accuse the person who gives it of seeking to "justify" the thing they are trying to explain.

And there is another distinction that seems to get blurred in this type of context - defending a person is a completely different thing from defending an action of that person.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 03:04 PM

Gee. I don't know much about this story. None of the papers I read gave the incident more than a brief mention. But Doug appears to have an excellent point, for once. Advocates normally do take a one-sided view, but it's entirely unclear to me why INObu chooses to appear in a Forum which is basically about music, and discredit himself by intemperate remarks that would tend to defeat his own client's interest if made in a court of law. Seems a bit unprofessional.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable tonight 11pm EST
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM

McGrath, I agree about explanation vs. justification. Justification is what one does when one is trying to convince others there was nothing wrong done to begin with. Theoretical explanations might make people think about the degree of wrong, but not pretend there was no wrong. I think Larry's done a bit of the former.

Annamil, it wasn't that O'Rielly didn't know about Travelers.
The "Stupid" (or at least really obnoxious) factor kicked in when he ridiculed Larry about there being no ethnic group, THEN saying he'd never heard of them. Loudly and smirkingly. After interviewing Larry about that very subject.

I have respect for Larry's tenacity and I think his heart's in the right place. I think he truly cares, and if I needed defending, I can't think of a better person to have as an advocate. I just don't think he's right, in THIS case, about Ms Toogood being a victim.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:32 PM

As I see it, explanation is essentially about getting the facts right, both the facts about what actually happened, and the background stuff about what led up to what happened.

Saying "It didn't happen quite the way you think it happened" is an important part of explaining things.

And I'd challenge any notion that at any time anything InOBU has said set out to justify that kid getting mistreated, or to deny that he was mistreated.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:44 PM

Well, I saw the video that night on the news. As far as I'm personally concerned, information about the parents' criminal background, if any, and their status as members of a culteral and ethnic minority, if any, haven't caused me to change my opinion of what I saw one bit. Robert Heinlein (whose opinions I generally abhore) had the right idea for cases like this: the whipping post.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM

Toad: "For once!" For once! Geeze. Oh well, I guess I should feel flattered. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:44 PM

Vindicative bunch, aren't you?

It might surprise you to learn that in cases like this, shoplifting or overcharging for roofing work are not considered to be relevant in constructing outcomes--also that punishment of the offender(the mother in this case) is not the object, it is in establishing a safe future for the child or children--

The fact prison, and permanent removal of the child from the home , and a bail that is ten times higher than usual for a case like this, is the reason that discrimination has become a question--and the concern has come from the local community, not just the family and friends of the accused--

A normal resolution for a situation like this would be enforced counselling and anger management training for the parents, with close ongoing supervision of the kids by CPS and continuing supervision by the court--

There is a very real reason to believe that if these people weren't Irish Travellers, and this weren't an election year this would already be in place-but it isn't-

The very real and significant issue of child abuse is generally ignored--Even in this case, what people are responding to is a video, not the issue--I would find this discussion more credible if there was some discussion of the problem, rather than just sniping at Larry for his involvement--

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 07:16 PM

I have not seen the video tape, but people have different standards of what they would consider abuse. I was once thrown out of a store for slapping my son's hand when he tried to grab a handful of pencils from a store display, this after he had just dumped three other containers of items from the counter, and having just been yelled at by the store personnel for climbing into the display window. When I (very frustrated) tried to explain that he was perfectly bright and pushing everyone's buttons, but nonverbal due to his speech problem, the store owner told me, "I don't care about your issues, I only care about mine." The whole family history in regard to childcare should be examined. People don't usually lose custody of their kids for shoplifting, parking tickets, or fraud.

Strange aside: Just now, while browsing the threads before heading home from work, I tried Aine's link and was told by the computer, "You are not authorized to access this site." I never have any trouble accessing most stuff from this computer, and I have never seen a message like that before. Is there some other possible reason for that message, like I have to be registered on some other site or something? Other Mudcat links work just fine. I would hate to think that the NPS would restrict access to online research from one of its libraries.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: Áine
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:18 PM

Dear Melani,

My bad!! Sorry, I messed up the html -- but, I've fixed it now, and the link should work like it's supposed to. ;-)

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:27 PM

M. Ted: Y' know, you may be right about the issue, I didn't see the video and don't know all the facts. But unless I missed a lot of stuff, no one on this thread has been " sniping at Larry for his involvement." If an individual starts two political threads, identifies himself/herself as an expert, and expresses himself in very intemperate language about controversial issues relating to family relationships, he/she has to be prepared for criticism. I personally don't know how severely the child was beaten.

But I have known some individuals who did have abusive parents, and they all felt, very strongly, that the authorities should have intervened. And "counselling and anger management" is simply a cop-out. They don't work, and we all really know that.

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:23 PM

MTed, you and others keep bringing up the issue of bail. From what I've read, the bail was set higher because the Toogoods have skipped out on court appearances in the past. With a history like that, the bail has to be higher. That is not unusual in cases like this. The prejudice is against someone who has a HISTORY of skipping out on their court hearings, nothing that has been shown to be a prejudice against Travelers.

People who are advocating Travelers rights are screwing this up royally. Instead of making a case where the prejudice can be plainly seen, people are choosing to build a case where there isn't one.

Again, let's see some proof instead of rhetoric.

Ron

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:27 PM

I am reporting, not opining Ron--the questions come from the good folks in South Bend/Niles?Mishawaka--go to the South Bend Tribune Website and read their coverage--

Subject: RE: Mudcatter on FOX cable 26-Aug-02 11pm EST
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:28 AM

Keep in mind that CNN stands for "Criminally Negligent Newscasts".