BS: Tab v Playing by Ear

Subject: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 05:46 PM

When I started playing in the early sixties, I had two records (remember them, large black things with a hole in the middle?), one by Joan Baez, and one by Bob Dylan. A couple of friends had some others, notably Gary Davis and Elizabeth Cotten, and from these we listened, scratched our heads, swapped ideas, listened again, scratched our heads again, but above all we persevered. There were no Tablatures available, no CDs which you could replay with a remote control, no videos, in fact there were virtually no audio-visual aids at all
I remember watching Tom Paxton on TV playing "Last Thing on my Mind", and what you missed the first time through was gone forever - needless to say we didn't miss much! We used a little notebook to jot down the chords as far as we were able and went to every folk-club we could to watch as many artists as we could and talked to as many as we could. They were almost always willing to show us how they did things, and shared picks and licks. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I learnt in a rather traditional way, by listening, learning the music and words by ear, and by observation, and being shown some basic things from which you developed your own technique.
This appears to be different in many ways from the modern approach where a CD/Video with Tab can enable anyone, with application, to learn a series of Songs/Tunes, without having to go through the process of learning to play by ear. This was brought home to me recently when an excellent young guitarist at a festival was playing along with me on some instrumentals, but not on some jigs and reels with a mandolin player. When I asked him why he had stopped he said that he hadn't got the tab for those tunes, and when I pointed out that just playing in G or D would have covered most eventuallities he said he couldn't play by ear!
And then the recent requests for Tab for some tunes in Mudcat got an abrupt response from some, who appeared, perhaps to feel that such music would be better worked out by ear . I've even been told that I played The Entertainer wrong cos it wasn't the same as the Tab he'd just got from the Internet. Any Comments?
Dave Bennett

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:02 PM

Tab or staff notation, very useful as a back up to playing by ear. But it's a terrible shame when people get to depend on having the notes written down somewhere before they dare play music. I've sat with people who can play their instruments far far better than I can - and they're paralysed because they haven't got the music written down.

Tab is different since generally it's used as a learning tool rather than in real time playing; but if you don't feel free to try playing something without having permission in writing it's just as bad. The people who gave us this music wouldn't have understood that kind of attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:05 PM

Dave - I learned how to play the same way you did. And I've been suprised at some of the tab requests I've seen over the years - I've often thought "Why didn't they just try to work it out themselves"? However I'm still tempted to learn how to use the tab system but I can't imagine being so tied to it that it becomes a crutch. After awhile you just need to learn how to use your ears. Just my opinion.

Being able to play be ear really came in handy when I used to play regularly with a guy who had the nasty habit of starting off songs in different keys than we had rehearsed them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: wilco
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM

I can't read music, and I learn like Dave4Guild, by ear. One of my children is an organist, and he can read music. It's humbling for me to see him take written music, with thousands of notes and other marks on the page, and then play something that he's never heard before. Tabs are useful to me for learning how to pick melody lines.

Wilco in Tennessee

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

Yes, it's a great skill and I wish I had it. But it's like reading words. It's wonderful to think that you can pick up any book written in your language and read it just like that, and it must be fansattic to have that ability with music.

But if you found someone who had got so hooked on print that they couldn't carry on a conversation with other people without having the words written out in black and white, you'd know there was something seriously wrong there.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 06:59 PM

Well, the older I get, the more cluttered my pea brain gets. Now I learned by ear, and it worked just great 20 or 30 years ago but now adays wouldn't be bad to have some quicky notes for songs that aren't done that often. Oh sure, after playing thru 'em a couple of times things are fine, but this "shorthand" would be nice to know...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: MMario
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 08:36 PM

remember too there are a lot of people who don't have access to hearing the tunes - either becuae they live in the back of beyond - or because they don't have transportation, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:18 PM

If you haven't heard the tune, the tab isn't much good, cause it has no time values for the notes--if you have tab with the music notation above it, you can do it, but the problem is that there isn't an awful lot of material notated like this--

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: khandu
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:53 PM

I am an "ear" man, myself. I agree that tab can be a useful tool, but I always have my ears with me 24 hours a day, so I may as well use them!

I am predominately a fingerpicker. I have a hard time reading tablature of flat-picked lead guitar. But one look at some tab of Mississippi John Hurt's music, I gave up!

It is easier to listen and figure it out than to try to decipher fingerpicked tab!

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Tinker
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM

But one look at some tab of Mississippi John Hurt's music, I gave up!

It is easier to listen and figure it out than to try to decipher fingerpicked tab!

khandu

Okay I'm on the far side of fourty and finally learning to fingerpick. I can "hear" chords and figure them out, put listening to even a "simple" song by Mississppi John Hurt and I couldn't begin to separate all the notes. TAB lets me play a song practicing the picking ( and that's plenty hard ) with out spending weeks figuring out what to play.

I've gotten enough inspiration from Mudcat that I've learnt to pick out a simple melody from ear, but I'm not yet ready to arrange it. I think for many of us it's a necessary learning tool, but it takes alot of self confidence to go out on your own and create arrangements.

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: khandu
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:01 AM

I fully understand, Tinker. I do not "dis" those who use tab. I was speaking of my personal taste and experience.

As I said, tab is a useful tool.

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:45 AM

I agree that TAB is a useful tool but being able to use your ear is more important. One of my brothers has the tenacity to study quite complex TAB but lacks a real ear for the music. Consequently, if he misses a note when reading, he doesn't notice that the whole piece is now slightly out and can happily read on to the end of the song and finish a quarter beat early!
I sometimes refer to the TAB if it's handy but usually it's just to check out a neck position or to reinforce what I've already worked out.
C-flat

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:08 AM

I've just typed a reaaly good one on this but my browser timed out BUT.

Essentially I said - its not the notes dots or otherwise its the interpretation of it!

Those who can learn quickly and easily by ear is is a gift - I am green with envy - those who just do whats on the page - shame on you those of us that do a bit of both muddle along.

Rmemebr why we play to give ourselves pleasure and when playing out to give others the pleasure.

I dodn'y play for 20 yrs and do a bit of both. Ear work gets easier the more you play.

Hugs to all and keep playing!

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: X
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM

What's needed is a good understanding of both.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 06:13 PM

I agree with Banjoest. I have a good friend who had been a performing amateur multi-instrumentalist for many years but waited until he was over 40 before he committed himself to reading music. His wife sat him down and taught him the basic concepts in an afternoon. It took much longer to become fluent, but he did it. He can now play squeezebox and mandolin much better as a result.

Ear training should be part of the learning process, and that too can be accomplished as an adult.

Find a good teacher of your musical interest.

As for tab, I find it infinitely quicker to write, so much so that it is how I generally shorthand music. I include the usual standard notation timing and key indicators either on the tab or on the 5 line staff above. For things which are of a more permanent nature, I write it all out abc style.

In the end however, reading and writing doesn't complete the necessary skills these days. Improvisation, (including embellishment & interpretation) rely more on ears than eyes and pencil. The important thing to remember is that each element of this equation is mutually supportive. In other words, as your ear improves, so your improv improves, and so your reading/writing improves, assuming you pracice all three.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:29 PM

I think I first encountered tablature more than forty years ago in Pete Seeger's The Folksinger's Guitar Guide. As I recall, he wrote that it was based on a notation used by Elizabethan lutenists and predates modern western notation. I've worked through a few tabs but I always find it a chore. Like Dave, we just wore out our LPs trying to learn Etta Baker, Gary Davis and a host of other great players. Once we learned to hear the chords and figure out where they were capoed it began to be much easier.

After a time, one learns to “see” the hands of the performer while listening to a recording. This ability is, in my opinion, far more useful than working out music note-for-note from tablature. The tablature is useful for working out the mechanics of a difficult technique but once that purpose has been served the tablature should be disgarded and forgotten.

A longtime friend and super picker extraordinaire once opined that there is a big difference between learning to play a tune on an instrument and actually learning to play the instrument. Imagine not being able to sing a song unless the music is before you and, even when memorized, only being able to sing those particular notes and rhythms. It's just way to limiting for most purposes.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:18 AM

Mark, that's just how some people do sing! Zombies!

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:38 AM

i've a close friend who's a professional pianist. he also plays piano accordion, but when it comes to joining in with session tunes or songs, he's stuck because he needs to learn anything from the dots first. also he can only transpose stuff to another key by working it all out on paper at home.

i find this difficult to understand, as being a play by ear practioner, i find it very easy to do these things.

conclusion, while i sometimes feel handicapped by being unable to decipher 'dots', i can find out a tune some other way.

even so, i think being tied to tabs or dots is a far greater disadvantage, with loss of spontaineity & flexibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:00 AM

A quick tip to find the chords of any simple tune: place your thumb on the key note, C for example, on a piano and lay your fingers on the others so that they cover D, E, F and G. Your main three chords will be Thumb (Key note), fifth finger and fourth finger, In this case, C, G and F. The minor will always be three semitones from the Key note, e.g., going down from the Key note, B, Bflat and A which is your minor. This applies no matter where you place your thumb on the keyboard. Jim Mclean

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:14 AM

I agree with everyone (mostly.) I learned to finger-pick guitar taking lessons from Dave Van Ronk. He'd play through the song, and slow it down where I couldn't catch it, and I'd write it out in tablature. At least when I was taking lessons from him, Dave wasn't the most energetic guy about providing you with anything on paper. In a way, it was good, because you learned a lot better watching him play, having him break things down for you, and then writing the tablature yourself. But, right from the start, I tried to take what I learned and apply it to songs that I knew. That way, I could come in with a song I'd done on my own, and Dave could fill it out a little for me, or help me through rough spots. I only took lessons from him for three months, but it was all that I needed. He gave me everything that I needed, and taught me how to transcribe songs (or told me to as an assignment.) He taught me basic chord structure... not where everything was, but how chords were created. He was a wonderful teacher. A few years later when I had moved out of New York City and was asked by the local music store to give guitar and banjo lessons (I never had a banjo lesson,) I was happy to do it (and I needed the money.) I gave my students tablatures that I had worked out, and tried to teach them in the way that taught me, but I think that I gave them too much. After they'd learned the basics and could pick out simple songs, I tried to wean them. I gave them a simple song that I played for them, as Dave had for me. I asked them to watch me, and as I went through the song, I'd break it down and show them how the song was just the same licks they could do with tablature. They could stop me anywhere in the song and ask me to break things down, and they could write down anything they wanted. I would even give them a tape of me playing the song, slowed down and then played regular speed. I'd send them home, fully equipped to learn the song from the tape, and that was usually the end of their lessons. Either they never showed up again, or came back for the next lessons, not having been able to figure out the song, and not willing to. They just wanted the tablature. I told them that I wasn't just going to endlessly supply them with tablatures, and that they had everything they needed to work out both songs, and we had a parting of the way. None of my students seemed to be potential Leo Kotkes, and if they had been, I couldn't have taught them to sound like Leo, because I don't. They just wanted to be able to accompany themselves (and had never heard of the classic finger pick guitarists.) If they'd been willing to try to learn songs by working them out iwth my help, I would have been happy to do it. But, they weren't.

When I was working on a gospel album many years ago, I needed a bass singer, and asked several bass singers in a the choir of a church where I was going at the time. They all said the same thing. If you give me the sheet music, I'll try it. I write sheet music about as fluently as I do Sanskrit, so I'd tell them that I'll tape the song for you and sing the harmony that I want... even put it on one channel by itself so that it would be easy to learn. I got the same answer from all but one of them... "I can't sing it without sheet music." Gee, can you talk without a script? I finally found someone who was willing to try it by listening to a tape with the bass harmony separated onto a separate channel.

If you want to sing harmony, do you have to have it written down? Choir singers seem to need that, and I understand it in a choir because you have to have all the baritones singing the same harmony. But, I sing in a gospel choir where we are taught our parts by the choir director singing them for us. The only time we ever use sheet music is when we're singing an anthem (we learn one a year..) and everyone stumbles all over themselves trying to read them little black squiggles on the paper, along with the words, glancing up at the director every once in awhile. It seems like an unnatural act to us. That's not to knock people who play by reading sheet music. I'd certainly be a better musician and singer, if I could read music more comfortably. But, I sing and play folk music, not classical music or opera. I like to think of my limitations as my style. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:17 AM

The main problem with learning accompaniments to songs from pre-written music either score or Tab is that it normally means you learn the accompaniment before you learn to sing the song. This means that it's very difficult to perform the song in a way that is natural to you. One of the most important things about folk music is "the folk process" where singer imparts some variation and often different interpretaion to a song. One of my "bete noirs" is listening to people who will insist on performing from music in a folk environment.

In Classical music things are different, you need to get the music exactly right as you usually have to fit in with many other people. Even in choirs, though, the conductor will usually start saying "Get those heads up out of your copies and eyes on me!" after the first rehearsal or two. On several occasions when I've had an unaccompanied solo recit to sing - conducters have asked me how I manage to get the extra expression into my singing - I just say Folk Singing.

In most folk song, the words must come first. Learn to sing the song, feel the way that it works for you - then try and produce your own accompaniment that enhances what you're already singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: GUEST,Memphis Mud
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:48 AM

I've only started using Guitar tab this year. The tab helps get my fingers where they need to be. But I've got to hear the tune to play with feeling. I learned "Maple Leaf Rag" with tab (and MIDI beeps) but only got the feel right after hearing it on a piano CD.

Also, it takes me forever to memorize the order of things with tab. By ear, remembering how many times for this lick and what movement follows that one sticks in my mind quicker.

I used to be a typesetter. I would type all day, reading someones stories the whole time. At the end of the day, I couldn't tell you about any of it. Uses a rote area of the brain, I guess. Bypasses the memory banks. In the eyes out the fingers. Brain is in Burmuda.

Subject: RE: BS: Tab v Playing by Ear
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:58 AM

It's probably obvious to some, but I'd like to comment that canventonal music notation ("dots") is simply tab for a keyboard instrument. Since the sotes are strictly sequential, it's a handy notation because it's easy (or relatively easy) to sight-read or sight sing.

Unluess you have a truly eidetic memory, some form of notation is almost a necessity--even as simple a one as a single melody line.