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Are lyrics offensive

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GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 10:24 AM
Bill D 28 Sep 02 - 10:47 AM
DonMeixner 28 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 11:11 AM
Leadfingers 28 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM
Amos 28 Sep 02 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM
Joe Offer 28 Sep 02 - 12:54 PM
Bill D 28 Sep 02 - 01:12 PM
Clinton Hammond 28 Sep 02 - 01:26 PM
M.Ted 28 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 28 Sep 02 - 02:12 PM
alanabit 28 Sep 02 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 04:36 PM
Little Hawk 28 Sep 02 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 05:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Ireland 28 Sep 02 - 05:47 PM
Liz the Squeak 29 Sep 02 - 02:43 AM
alison 29 Sep 02 - 03:14 AM
Ned Ludd 29 Sep 02 - 03:25 AM
alanabit 29 Sep 02 - 03:41 AM
Gurney 29 Sep 02 - 04:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM
Leadfingers 29 Sep 02 - 12:19 PM
dick greenhaus 29 Sep 02 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 01:11 PM
Amos 29 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM
Dead Horse 29 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM
DonMeixner 29 Sep 02 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 02 - 05:40 PM
Amos 29 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Ireland 29 Sep 02 - 06:46 PM
wilco 29 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 29 Sep 02 - 07:23 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 29 Sep 02 - 08:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Sep 02 - 09:00 PM
alison 30 Sep 02 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Boab 30 Sep 02 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Guest: Oshawa 30 Sep 02 - 02:30 AM
Kaleea 30 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM
Big Tim 30 Sep 02 - 03:56 AM
belfast 30 Sep 02 - 08:30 AM
wysiwyg 30 Sep 02 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Ireland 30 Sep 02 - 09:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 02 - 01:25 PM
Wolfgang 30 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Ireland 30 Sep 02 - 02:52 PM
Wolfgang 30 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM
Jimmy C 30 Sep 02 - 03:21 PM
Leadfingers 30 Sep 02 - 03:52 PM
Amos 30 Sep 02 - 04:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM
Grab 30 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Ireland 30 Sep 02 - 04:42 PM
Amos 30 Sep 02 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,Ireland 30 Sep 02 - 05:04 PM
wysiwyg 30 Sep 02 - 05:05 PM
Amos 30 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM
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Subject: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:24 AM

Should people take offence at lyrics, what would people see as taboo? For example would this cause offence?
Don't bury me in Irelands fienian pastures
take me home to Ulster let me die
And on my grave just wright a simple message
here lies a soldier of the UDR (any regiment or organisation can be substituted)
I read on this mb about folk singers telling the (paraphraseing) way it is, being the voice of the community etc.
Can such lyrics cause division within the music world or are they seen just for what they are songs?


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:47 AM

if you were to search the archives, you would see that anything about the Irish problem will upset someone...why did you doubt? (We have many LONG threads about Ireland ...please do NOT refresh them!)

anything that is controversial will cause offense to someone......


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

Don't worry about being offensive to some unknown. Write an honest song and stand up for it. Just be prepared for the heat. If the lyric is honest and truthfully stated, no criticism can stand before it.

Don


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:11 AM

Are the songs the Wolf tones sing offensive, do folk singers have the right to claim they are the social conscience of the music world, bearing in mind the lyrics of the song.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM

Before the troubles started again in 69 there were a lot of good chorus songs being sung about the Irish situation. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to sing a song about the IRA if some of your audience have family or friends being shot at by them.I havent sung Dublin in the Green for thirty years in case I offend someone. Controversy is one thing, but be careful what you are singing and where you are singing it.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:19 AM

I agree Don.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:24 AM

Offense is a matter of individual choice. There is no categorical "offense". People get pissed whent hey choose to, for myriad webby reasons.

The question is whether a song is honest or not.

A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM

My friend sings in all areas of N.I. she was worried one night while singing in a protestant club. The song requested The Chapel on the Hill?? Worried about offence she changed the words from Chapel to Church, boy did she get it wrong, the older people ribbed her all night(jokingly) for not staying to the true wording.

Not a folk song but an honest one, popular among all.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:54 PM

My son the punk rocker writes songs for the specific purpose of offending people, and then he's taken aback when people are offended or repulsed.

Yes, lyrics can offend people. Some lyrics offend some people and not others, and some are more universally offensive - you have to second-guess your audience on that. If causing offense is what you want to do with your lyrics, then you ought to be prepared to accept the fact that some people may dislike you for it.

On the other hand, causing offense with lyrics may be a good way to get people thinking.

Goddamn, self-righteous prigs....

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:12 PM

His songs are 'offensive', your songs are 'controversial', my songs are 'poetic truth'

with apologies to the memory of the great Sydney J. Harris, who constructed hundreds of similar examples of human thinking.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:26 PM

Everything even vaguely interesting is offensive to someone... somewhere...

Who cares?

,-)


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM

With due respect, Amos, it isn't really always an individual choice--In some situations, there are two sides, and, though you might not take a side, you also have to avoid putting yourself in the line of fire--


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM

Well, I suppose that particular little ditty would be likely to start people raising points of order about the implication that there are only six counties in Ulster.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:12 PM

(quote )"My son the punk rocker writes songs for the specific purpose of offending people, and then he's taken aback when people are offended or repulsed."

Well I suppose we can all thank the degenrate celebrants "Sex Pistols" for making the next wave of Punk all the rage.

(quote) " Yes, lyrics can offend people.... ...On the other hand, causing offense with lyrics may be a good way to get people thinking."

If only actual intellecual processes were in evidence , let alone addressed , in the screed-scrawl that passes for lyrics in Thrash-Rap & Gangstah Rap ,the next devolutionary slide down. Sorry ,but inciting anger and agression feeds on all of this and the culture of local politics , however eloquently or truthfully sung , is where it begins.

Those that have done so honestly have to reflect and take into account how much of this method has been corrupted purely for the *sake* of getting an audience's reptilan *rocks off* as an end in itself.

To misquote one famous ( and *knighted* ) graduate from the Royal School of Economics. " Iiiiii know....It's only horroshow but I like it ,like it, Yes I do".


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 03:22 PM

It is all about context really. I am not offended by either bare breasts or pigs, but I would not choose to stick up posters of them outside a mosque. I think it is possible to justify shocking people but not deliberately giving offence. There is a difference.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:36 PM

Chrisy Moore write's songs from his perspective some are offensive to many who do not share his ideals. But in the end if he was to stop because some prod did'nt like what he does we would all lose out.

Mc of H that ditty has nothing to do with counties of Ulster, Donegal has it's Orange parades and its part of Ulster, the Kingdom that is.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:51 PM

There have been several popular styles of music in which it was obligatory to write lyrics deemed "offensive". If no one got offended, these musicians would be deprived of a reason for performing, and possibly even of a reason for LIVING! Think about that, you insensitive, hard-hearted people!

What are angry, alienated, sex-starved teenagers supposed to do, if they or their heroes can't offend someone???

"I'm like...get REAL!" "Doh..." "Whatta buncha losers!"

- LH


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:19 PM

Does Orielly have a point with his attack on the rappers etc.

Should parents be responsible for the music children are listening to? And if we follow Mr O's example who should children listen to. Every new gengre has its critic's most obvious Elvis, Jerry L. Lewis should they have been banned?


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM

And wouldn't Donegal be classed as one of "Ireland's Fenian pastures"?

The thing about being offensive is that, if you are saying something you believe in, in the way that is natural for you to say it, and it happens to offend people to hear you say it, that's one thing.

If you are saying something you don't particularly believe in, and saying it in a way that isn't your natural way, but is intended to be offensive to other people, that is quite a different thing.

Of course determining which is which is not too easy, and the person saying and the people hearing it might sometimes disagree on this point.

I think it's always best,if the ideas in what you are saying might be offensive to some people, you ought to avoid phrasing it in a way that could be taken as verbally offensive - it muddies the waters, and provides an excuse for them to avoid the real issue. One thing at a time.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:47 PM

McG of H, you seem fixated with scoring cheap points on Irish issues, the song was an example, nothing more just an example to illustrate my post.

But if you want to argue about Ireland I'm willing to indulge you.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 02:43 AM

ER.... Elvis WAS banned - at least from the waist down...

LTS


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: alison
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:14 AM

Hi Ireland,

we have had plenty of "discussion" on "the troubles" and "rebel" songs (from both sides)..... some quite civil discussions some very heated... if you look you'll find them....

here are a few of the past ones

which Irish troubles songs are offensive

my little armalite

back home in Derry

there are heaps more...
... (see Bill I didn't refresh them just pointed to them..... *grin*)


I am Irish, but I'm still very careful to choose what I sing...because you don't always know who your audience is...... fair enough if you play in a republican / loyalist club you'll know it is probably fine to sing republican / loyalist songs....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:25 AM

Many songs can be offensive to some people or they would not be interesting(Liz that was his lower half ,not his lyrics,though many of them are offensive!)However the Irish discussion is about singing songs in the prescence of people you have wronged and expecting them to smile.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:41 AM

May I just correct Taliesn's earlier post. Sir Michael Jagger, for I believe you were referring to him, is a former undergraduate of the London School of Economics.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:36 AM

Yes they are, to someone. Especially bigots and the politically correct. Worry about them. There are more and more of them every year.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM

Naah, I'm not into arguing about Ireland on this thread - the remark was a peripheral bit of pedantry. Sorry of it offended anyone.

A lot of the time offending, or being offended, is about power and territory really. If you challenge the limits on what is accepted in a particular space, you are going to be seen as asserting some kind of claim to that space. And similarly, if you object to what is said, you are resisting that claim.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:19 PM

I worked for a while with a guy (South Londoner)who used every now and the be overcome by the urge to sing 'The Sash My Father wore',which usually got me replying with that lovely song with the first line 'One Sunday morning as I was going to Mass.I met bloody Orange man,I killed him for his pass'.Sometimes we got a laugh from the crowd but never a fight,thank God.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 12:44 PM

Sid Kipper recently announced that he was forming a new organization: Bigots against Tolerance


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:11 PM

Leadfingers, I think that is a laugh, taking the pee out each other, I love it when those who "should not" sing the Sash or the Soldiers song do.

It is when people like the Wolgtones use songs to incite hatred and violence that offends especially when your on the receiving end of a beating when such songs boil the blood.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

Being offended by something is an act of will; it requires the deliberate denial of understanding of the whole context and viewpoint from which the offense, elected as such, emanates.

For my part, I find taking offense often is offensive to me. :>)

A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:42 PM

Alison, I wish that I had left the discussions alone, then I would not have read the absolute shite Big Mick wrote. He surely is a misinformed yank.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:43 PM

But then you get situations where the offensiveness is an act of bullying - people who make racist or sexist remarks as a way of showing who is in charge, and that kind of stuff.

It's not a simple matter of people unreasonably taking offence at things that are really fair enough. Context is everything. A word can be like a blow in the face sometimes.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM

Was there any songs wrote praising the actions of Jeffry Dhalmer?? the Oaklohoma bomber?

Would lyrics glorifying the murderer be seen as offensive?


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM

I should have said Timothy Mc Veigh.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Dead Horse
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. So it goes and will continue as long as there is percieved injustice.
But to get away from that issue, hows about the fact that hardly any sea shanties can be sung as they were intended, without the singer being too concious of being seen as racist, sexist, or downright rude? I have, and will always sing about *niggers* and not accept substitute words, but gauging my audience, I might give an explanation beforehand, or even afterwards, just to set the context. Same goes for sexist or political verses when they crop up. The ruder verses are left for discriminating folks in extreme cases, the milder ones for when children are not present.
It's a case of audience awareness, once again.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 03:56 PM

But you wouldn't be singing with the object of causing offence, but in the knowledge that you will be, and that's a different thing.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM

Amos,Being offended by something is an act of will.

Your putting the onus on the offendee not the offender. What aree you saying, if some one writes a song glorifying the 911 deaths, would the victims family be wrong by being offened?

Does some sort of social conscience not come into this, would a song glorifying the act of rape be offensive or just the problem of the victim?


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 05:04 PM

No, a song glorifying rape would be stupid, and offensive to evrybody I can think of. But you have the right to write one. Whether a song is offensive should not be a part of your right to create it. Only a part of your smarts as to whether or not to sing it.

Don


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 05:40 PM

Actually I think I'd put it, "You've no right to write it, but I've no right to stop you writing it".

And I think I'd have the right to object to you singing it. And whether I've the right to or not, I'd still do so.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM

Ireland:

If someone wrote an honest song saying why they thought the deaths of 9-11 were in some way glorious, I would listen to it without offense if I could understand what they were trying to say.
Granted, that is a pretty big "if"! :>) It is perfectly possible to tolerate a point of view with which you do not agree, and running around hoping not to have anyone disagree with you is hopeless and self-destructive.

If someone wrote a bunch of negative crap glorifying death which they did not honestly mean I expect a lot of people would be offended. I feel that way about rap music, largely -- it communicates in order to offend, and although I find it irritating acoustically, all it tells me is that some ounk is trying to pull my chain, which I decline to have pulled, thanks.

Being offended by X is a two sided transaction. There's no law that says you have to hand your emotional state over to some ass hole and allow him the provelege of making you be offended. You get to design what you will and will not react to. So of course, the event of person A being offended by person B is entirely a matter of subscription and intent by both parties.

A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 06:46 PM

It is interesting to get the views of people who get involved in the music industry,it gives me a better understanding of what makes musicians tick.

My two boys are into music in a big way, I would be remiss if I was to expose them to a way of life, without first talking to people who have been there and done it. I do appreciate your replies as they can be used as a talking point with my boys who come home with some wierd stuff from their guitar and music lessons. Sometimes people can see harm where there is none.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: wilco
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 06:58 PM

Do you want your music to be social commentary, history, entertainment, edification, education, or something else? I don't like to be "preached at," and I hope that I don't "preach at" others.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 07:23 PM

Amos - I agree entirely with your comments on Rap music (most of it). It emanates from and is directed toward what I would term a very low and negatively inclined mentality...one that glories in its lowness or secretly hates itself for being both what it is and what it is not. I don't believe that has anything to do in the ultimate sense with any given race, by the way, I think it has to do with powerlessness, ghettos, poverty, lawlessness, racism, "victim" psychology, the drug trade, and despair, all masquerading as a super-macho arrogant "attitude"...all of which the music marketing system is only to happy to harness in its endless search for a quick buck.

That being said, I will say that there is some genuinely good and creative rap...like one minute out of a given 9 hours...but there is some. And there are plenty of talented rappers, no doubt. I wish their talents were put to better use.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 08:35 PM

Many people do not feel alive untill they have felt offended. People who go out of their way to be offended are trouble from the outset... Nothing like Meth and Alcohol to spice up a conversation... Patriotism mixes volitilely with these substances, and if you throw in a little religion, ...look out! Why do people spoil for a fight? Well, maybe they just recently lost one... I have witnessed offense being taken to most anything one could think of...

Really, though the need to fight for something is rather banal, it would appear that leaning against the status quo can bring about positive change... But change makes people nervous, and irritable people take offense easily...
"Whether we give offense or take offense,... just as much pain is brought into the world"


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 02 - 09:00 PM

People who go out of their way to be offended are trouble from the outset...As are people who go out of their way to offend.

And what's really happening a lot of the time is people trying to defend territory and people trying to acquire it. Metaphorically, or actually.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: alison
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:00 AM

try this series of threads Ireland.. I think you'll like them.....

offensive to some initially, but definately tongue in cheek and became a masterpiece.....

Campsite at Drumcree


slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 01:54 AM

Once wandered thro' Glencolumcuil [somebody put my spelling right? Ta!] at dusk. Passing a local pub, I heard the lively sound of an Irish jig come breezing out the door. Ah---that was for me! In I went--a door to the right, and one on the left. The glad sound was coming from the right. It was jam-packed---no way in. I disconsolately turned and entered the room on the left. It was gloomy dark, with only the tv throwing a flickering light. All were watching intently; the Orange parades, Ian Paisley and all--in Ulster! I didn't fancy sitting in the dark, so I moved back out into the evening air of Saint Columba's birthplace. I looked up at the swinging pub sign; the Red Hand of Ulster ! A funny old world------


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Guest: Oshawa
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 02:30 AM

Aren't songs really just about telling stories? Stories aren't obligated to be objective, just to be well told. What annoys me is when songs manipulate the lowest common denominator, whether in the sappiest pop song or in violence-inciting rap or rock and roll. That's up to the artist. It is SO easy to manipulate the listener but that's not what a good story is about. A good writer is not afraid to offend the reader/listener as a consequence of telling a good story but neither do they offend as a substitute for learning how to write. It's an ancient argument really. Sorry... just visiting... and blathering.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 02:42 AM

Define "offensive." I recall that the late Nat King Cole was considered to be demoralizing & polluting the minds of the nations' teens with his "rock & roll!" (How unforgetable that is to me!) Elvis' pelvic moves were nothing compared to today's hbo & cinemax. When I was teaching in the public school system of a midwestern capitol, I found the actions of the administration to be offensive. Another teacher & I were warned that if we suspected a certain 3rd grader to be physically abused, we would not report it to any authorities--under penalty of being fired, as they did not want any lawsuits!! I also found the behaviour of students & their parents to be offensive. When I called a parent to report that the 6 year old was urinating all over the walls of the restroom & refused to cease, she replied "I have the same problem with his Daddy & all of his brothers."


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:56 AM

Boab: re Red Hand - we've touched on this before. The symbol is an ancient one for the whole of Ulster, 9 counties, not Northern Ireland's 6 only. It appears on the O'Neill Coat of Arms. "Great" Hugh O'Neill was, arguably, one of Ireland's first and greatest nationalists, with his battle success at Clontibret in 1595(!) History goes back a long way in these parts. For me, the Red Hand will remain a symbol of the whole of Ulster, including Glencolumbcille ("valley of Columba's prayer cell or church") in Donegal (where I was born) even though 10% (at most) of 66% of the geographical area have tried to appropriate it, and quite successfully too.

Re kids going into the into music business (this is for you LH!): Bob Dylan, who's forgotten more than most of us will ever know about it, wasn't too keen on his son becoming a "rock star", but he did anyway. Kids will usually do their own thing and parents will always worry about them!


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: belfast
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 08:30 AM

It is sometimes hard to know exactly where the offence lies. When Christy Moore recorded "The Time Has Come" it received extensive airplay on RTE. When someone told them that it referred to the last meeting between Peggy O'Hara and her son, the hungerstriker Patsy O'Hara, they banned it. The words of the song had not changed.

On the other hand "one Sunday morning as I was going mass etc" mentioned earlier is simply and obviously offensive to anyone catholic, protestant or atheist. Is this being politically correct? Perhaps. It's also stating the obvious.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:21 AM

What's REALLY offensive is having someone else decide what I ought or ought not to feel offended by, because I failed to read their mind correctly on intent. That compounds offensiveness beyond one's own boundaries, and repeatedly violating someone else's boundaries is beyond offensive.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:33 AM

Christy Moore really P.'s me off, but that's the twisted Irish in me, on the otherhand he tells a story and to ban that would be offensive. I'm on the otherside wrt the hunger strikers, but do admire them for sticking to their convictions. Their story should be told, its up to us to take out of it what we want, inspiration or offence.

Now there's an opinion I did not have before!


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 01:25 PM

No, you can't read people's minds, as WYSIWYG says. As a rule of thumb, I feel it is always best to give people the benefit of the doubt - if they offend, assume that they aren't doing it just to offend; and if people claim to be offended, assume that they genuinely are.

If you're wrong in that assumption, it normally becomes pretty clear soon enough. But if you do it the other way round, and assume malice or bad faith, and you are wrong, the chances are you will never find out the truth, because the way you react will mask it.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 02:19 PM

Ireland,

I'm curious, will you give us the original lyrics of the verse you started your argumentation with, eventually? My bet is the last line is

here lies a soldier of the IRA

Or am I mistaken?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 02:52 PM

Wolfgang, to add IRA at the end would make no sense as the song indicates the territory of "ulstermen", for an IRA man to be buried in Ulster he is still in his home land if you know what I mean.

There is another song No pope in Rome? Tune of home on the range. No pope in Rome No chapels to shine in my eye, No nuns and no Priests and no rosary beads Every day is the 12th of July.???

These songs are brought out around the start of July, they only cause offence and instill hatred. My friend is catholic as he is older than me he takes the mick out of the situation, you know prod v cath, mixing the Soldiers song with the sash, goes over my sons head but I think it's funny.

My point I suspose is this,if my children are not exposed to this crap there is one less way of filling them full of bigoted crap the ruins a great country. And if they are exposed to it I rather have the situation protrayed for the joke it is.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

Ireland,

I had meant of course that the other lines had to be adapted as well. But your response shows I was dead wrong thinking this was originally an IRA song.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

Singing Kevin Barry to the tune of The Sash, and the other way round, is sometimes done. You can get away with the same chords, so if anyone had the nerve they could have the two going on at the same time, and it might sound quite good - harmonising.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:21 PM

I know quite a few Irish songs and would never intentionally offend anyone, However if I went into a "Orange" club I would expect to hear certain songs and if I went into a "Nationalist" club I would expect to hear certain songs as well. I am not going to be offended when I know in advance what to expect.

The difference is whether the song offends your moral values, your nationality, your religion or your sexual orientation etc. I am a catholic nationalist but there are certain rebel songs I would not sing because I know by the lyrics that they cross the line of acceptance. I do sing many songs that are pro-irish rather than anti-english. I find that the majority of "orange" songs for example are not anti-irish as much as they are anti-catholic and are very offensive.

I once sang " Over the Sea to Skye" at a Scottish function and was warned not to sing it again because it was a Catholic Jacobite song. This was in Toronto in 1988. It's a judgement call, and really there are lots of great songs around that there is no need to offend anyone. If in doubt don't include it in your set.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:52 PM

I have heard of people having problems by ordering the wrong brand of Whiskey.Jamesons is Catholic ,Bushmills is protestant.Is that ridiculous,or what???


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:03 PM

I've heard of whiskey becoming a religion in extremis but this is the first time anyone tried to tell me that a religion had a whiskey as a parishioner!! LOL!

A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM

Guinness is ecumenical, I believe.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Grab
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM

Amos, I disagree. You can be offended by anything, and what offends you depends on the beliefs and values you hold. It doesn't even take any skill or communication - about the easiest way to offend is to chew your food and then hang your mouth open in front of someone!

That's why I find "artists" who say that they're offending to communicate to be idiots. Being offensive takes no skill or talent, and shows no intelligence or motivation on the part of that person beyond the desire to do something generally considered unacceptable.

What you *can* do is not to get het up about it. If the person doing it doesn't know it's offensive to you, then don't shout about it, and don't blame that person. For instance, if I sang "Pretty Polly" and only later found that someone in the audience had recently had a daughter murdered, I would feel bad that I could have chosen a more appropriate song. And if that person had left the room, I wouldn't be surprised when I found why. But I *wouldn't* expect them to want a written apology from me, or for anyone to get on my case about it, if I simply didn't know. If I did know and sang it anyway, to get that person pissed off, then I could rightly expect them to dislike me for it. Whether that song is offensive *to me* or not is one issue, whether the singer/writer is intending to *be* offensive is another issue altother.

So if someone sings a pro-IRA or pro-UDA song in a club I'm in, they won't get much applause from me bcos I don't like those songs, but that's it. But if they come up to me afterwards and try to pick a fight with me for being in favour of Brit soldiers shooting the little kiddies, they have deliberately chosen to be offensive to me personally, and that's a different matter.

I would really rather ppl sang what they want and we all tone out what we don't personally like, than that we have limits imposed. Wysiwyg's point is true - political correctness should just mean that you don't *intend* to cause offense, not that you take a focus group from every corner of the world and produce something which is so vague, you can't tell what it's supposed to mean anyway!

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:42 PM

Fields of Athenrye (?) is a song that is anti-English, but it is about how people were sent to Australia both Catholic and Protestant met the same fate, so I understand the anti-English songs, but hate the way people hijack it for political reasons.

I have said the Wolftones bug the *&"^ out of me before, but when I consider what has been said about the songs you sing and why, it has changed my opinions a bit.

I agree that the anti-catholic songs of the orange order are very offensive, it shows an ignorance and ingratitude that does nothing but stir it up.

I know I started from an Irish perspective I'm interested in songs that offend in general, I do not want to relate every thing to Ireland.

Religous songs can be pretty near the knuckle.


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 04:53 PM

QUite right -- You can be offended by anything, and that depends on your beliefs. And, let us not forget, your beliefs are the result of your own decision to assume them. You can also be NOT offended by anything. Pay yer money, take yer cherce! :>) In my experience, the more offense one arounds taking from the environment, the less productive and helpful they are, as a general rule of thumb.

A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 05:04 PM

When Geldof brought out "I don't Like Mondays", was the family who took offence justified in trying to take him to court and have the record banned?

When they (Boomtown Rats) wrote the song, were they more interested in making money at the expense of the girl the song was about


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 05:05 PM

At the functional level of everyday life, it's real simple. People simply vote with their feet when they've had more than they are willing to have. What happens in between the offense and the vote is where it gets sticky.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 05:37 PM

A virtual clarion, as usual, Susan!


A


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Subject: RE: Are lyrics offensive
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

I can't see anything "anti-English" in the Fields of Athenry, and I've never met any English person who saw it that way. Rebelling against "the Crown" is something a lot of English people have felt called to do at various times, and have seen as their patriotic duty.



Maybe that's a quibble - there are songs which would qualify. But the relevance of making that quibble is that it's quite easy to identify songs as partisan, and they get used in a partisan way, when they aren't in themselves partisan at all. Singing a particular hymn can be seen, and can be intended as, a provocative and sectarian act - and then you find it's in a hymn book of the other religion anyway, used in another part of the world.



There's stuff which is intentionally and explicitly sectarian or racist or whatever, and anyone singing it except in a special kind of quasi-academic context, is setting out to make a sectarian or racist statement, and maybe laying down a territorial claim of some kind. And there is stuff which gets taken up and used as some kind of banner, when the content is in no way offensive ("I'm for Ever Blowing Bubbles" becomes a way of expressing support for West Ham, and could even get your head kicked in.)



It's easy enough to say "don't be offended" and if its a question of something that might be aimed at you or yours, that's probably something to aim for. But there's the question of how to react if it's aimed at someone else - I don't think there's anything particularly admirable in keeping quiet when some bigot is throwing insults at Black people or Jews or Arabs. Or Catholics, if you're a Protestant, or Protestants if you're a Catholic, if you're in a part of the world where those kinds of insults carry weight.


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