Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Patriotism -- what is it?

John Hardly 01 Oct 02 - 10:52 AM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,dp 01 Oct 02 - 12:09 PM
Jim McLean 01 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 01 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM
Wolfgang 01 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM
GUEST 01 Oct 02 - 12:35 PM
NicoleC 01 Oct 02 - 12:40 PM
John Hardly 01 Oct 02 - 01:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 02 - 01:42 PM
Mrrzy 01 Oct 02 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 01 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 Oct 02 - 03:00 PM
toadfrog 01 Oct 02 - 03:17 PM
toadfrog 01 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM
NicoleC 01 Oct 02 - 03:36 PM
Bobert 01 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 02 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM
mack/misophist 01 Oct 02 - 07:40 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 02 - 08:23 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 01 Oct 02 - 09:32 PM
Uncle_DaveO 01 Oct 02 - 10:41 PM
John Hardly 01 Oct 02 - 10:43 PM
toadfrog 01 Oct 02 - 11:14 PM
John Hardly 01 Oct 02 - 11:35 PM
alanabit 02 Oct 02 - 04:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 02 - 05:55 AM
Wolfgang 02 Oct 02 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Amos 02 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM
Jim Krause 02 Oct 02 - 10:27 AM
Jim Krause 02 Oct 02 - 10:31 AM
Art Thieme 02 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM
Little Hawk 02 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM
Don Firth 02 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,AHJ 02 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 02 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,Amos 02 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Amos 02 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 02 - 06:33 PM
Amos 02 Oct 02 - 06:45 PM
GUEST 03 Oct 02 - 03:25 PM
Uncle_DaveO 03 Oct 02 - 04:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 02 - 05:06 PM
Little Hawk 03 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 02 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 03 Oct 02 - 09:16 PM
toadfrog 03 Oct 02 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 04 Oct 02 - 11:06 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM
Little Hawk 04 Oct 02 - 12:40 PM
Steve in Idaho 04 Oct 02 - 04:58 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:52 AM

This is not meant to be inflammatory (I'm posting with my mudcat "handle" and I am not asking in a manner that presupposes the answer).

In light of the recent outrage expressed by Daschle, and echoed here, how do those of you who are liberal/Democrats (yes, this is a USA question) define patriotism. By what measure or definition do you consider yourself (if you do) "patriotic"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:03 PM

I am not a liberal/Democrat, I'm a Canadian, but what the heck...

Patriotism springs out of the natural loyalty people have to that which they are familiar with and from which arises their sense of indentity. At the very beginning that loyalty is connected with Self (as a self-aware individual), and with family (mother, father, siblings). So I would say that the simplest form of patriotism is to family. Observe small children...or young animals...and you will see it very clearly.

One's patriotism broadens to include larger areas as one grows older and becomes aware of more. That is a process of maturation.

So, one becomes patriotic to one's home area, one's town, one's region, one's religion, one's own version of "common sense" (which is simple philosophy), and so on...

The issue of patriotism becomes confused when one experiences great pain from family, community, school, etc...in which case patriotism can turn into protest (against love denied) or eventually even into unrelenting lifelong hatred...in which case one will find new things to be patriotic to, and fight against the old ones.

Why people have chosen to label only patriotism to nation-states as "patriotism", I don't know. All loyalties to some perceived source of support and guarantor of trust are really...patriotism.

You could say that a deeply religious person is patriotic to his or her idea of God, for instance. "Patriot" comes from Latin "pater" which means father, so patriotism is to love the father (parent) or fatherland/motherland, etc... It could just as well be called "matriotism", but we're coming out of a patriarchal age, so it hasn't been called that.

Patriotism is a dangerous concept when brought into the political arena...but then, everything becomes dangerous when brought into the political arena, doesn't it? (Sex, money, greed, weaponry, patriotism...) Politics is the business of conquest...conquest of people's hearts and minds, conquest of land and resources, conquest of the seat of power, conquest of financial control, conquest of religious or secular dogma over opposing dogma.

As such, it is a corrupted and ignorant field of action...generally...and politicians constantly throw the football of "patriotism" around in an effort to manipulate people and get what they want out of them.

Notice that as a person matures, his patriotism reaches out to larger and larger distances...from Self to mother to family to community to region to culture to nationality.

It follows that ultimately, if a person is to achieve wisdom, this MUST occur:

He must become patriotic not to some life, but to all life...not to some people, but to all people...not to one country, but to the whole human community on this planet...and to Nature and the planet itself. And if he is spiritually inclined, to the Source from which all that sprang in the first place. The greatest patriots have been spiritual masters like Christ or Buddha, and spiritual workers like Gandhi...because their patriotism went out to all.

That is wisdom. That is patriotism in the Highest. One ends with no enemies but one's own weaknesses to fight against.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,dp
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:09 PM

amen brotha!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM

According to Dr Johnson it's the last refuge of a scoundral. Jim Mclean


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM

(quote)
"In light of the recent outrage expressed by Daschle, and echoed here, how do those of you who are liberal/Democrats define patriotism. By what measure or definition do you consider yourself (if you do) "patriotic"? "

Well the pre-supposition of only asking the self-defined "liberal Dems" to define their "measure" ( in deviation from the conservative/Republican north star by any chance? ) of of one's "patriotism"?

Right out the gate seems you've completely ignored what an "independent" defines as "patriotic" as if no such position exists
let alone matters.

I can't help be reminded of the historic Iran-contra Affair Hearings where Oliver North applied the same tactics of ascribing "un-patriotic" tendancies to his accusers seeking to challenge him , as well as his administration , on the legality of his , and thus his administration's , actions.
The chairman was WWII Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Daniel Inoyue of Hawaii ( since become Senator for same) whom responded, in more a eloquent way ,that one could be well justified on challenging North on the legality of his actions and *ramin* every bit as "patriotic" as North proclaimed himself and his administration to be.

Well remembering the v-taped moment I recall that lttile rebut shut Ollie North up on taking that line any further since he was obviously oblivious to whom he was addressing ,namely a more decorated Marine than himself who had also lost his arin WWII.

It is in this light that I view the present administration. Neither Dubya nor Cheney has *any* military record of measure to back up the *ideologically-driven* new of *pre-emptive strike* that's apparently become "fashionable" during an ,shall we say ,an "unfavorable" economy.

It is in the light of my considering it very "patriotic" to *challenge*
either party's "war rhetoric" for it's *credability* as well as its *legitimacy*.

As a die-hard independent whom has dutifully listened to BOTH sides of the argument on dozens of issues , via C-Span broadcasts of Congressional hearings and floor debates as well as all manor of conservative to liberal think tank synposiums )for nigh on 17 years, I can clearly say that it is one's "patriotic duty" to *demand* that this present administration make DAMN cock-sure that they have presented their *credible* plans for "rebuilding Iraq" after the warfare , WHILE not having even begun to finish up what they started in Afghanistan, AND present the *bill* that every American tax-payer , whom doesn't have acess to high-priced lawyer-accountant tax shelter strategies , will have to pay by way of National Debt , BEFORE any pariotic American will *allow* this present administration any green light for prosecuting a pre-emptive war.

It was the abyssmal *failure* of Papa Bush's after-war policy of just tuning tail and leaving a vacuum in Afghanistan ,as well as leaving Saddam in power , that we find ourselves *here again*
at much more cost of blood and treasure.

In my mind it is everybody's ,no matter their political tribal affiliation, to read this admin the riot act over the absolute requirement to present a viable plan for truly "finishing the job" this time which *requires* hands-on "nation building" or this
admin's "patriotism" is thrown completely into question.

Any rabble-rousing fool can make a war and alot have.
Bush 1's admin blew it in both Afghanistan AND Iraq so we dare not just allow Pres.Shrubby the same benefit of the doubt based upon , of all things ,"voter approval ratings".

Anyone whom is just coinent to just sit back and assume this present admin. "knows what they are doing" without demanding a full account on how this same admin is compitently prepared to *really* finish the job is acting "un-patriotic" by *default* .

This is a pre-emptive war in the Middel East we are talking about here. My patriotism infomrs me that this adminstration has "yet" to prove that they have thought this through and that same patriotism requires that they DAMN well had better provide proof that they have before lighting that powder keg.

There, that should stir the pot which really needs to be shaken, not stirred.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM

"Patriot" comes from Latin
"pater" which means father, so patriotism is to love the father (parent) or fatherland/motherland, etc... It could just as well
be called "matriotism", but we're coming out of a patriarchal age, so it hasn't been called that.


Not a very convincing argument. It comes more directly from Latin 'patria' (which of course comes from 'pater') so it hardly could have been called 'matriotism'. The argument with the patriarchal age couldn't explain for instance why in German we speak of 'fatherland' and 'mothertongue'. If the patriarchat was responsible why should we speak of 'mothertongue'?

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:35 PM

Wow. Liberals being asked to justify their patriotism? It isn't like that hasn't happened before. I know you don't mean to be inflammatory, but isn't it hubris to assume that anyone that doesn't agree with you isn't "patriotic" or has to defend their love of country?

I won't argue with LH's definition of patriotism, although I think in the context of politics the definition is simpler:

Patriotism is the love of one's home, the desire to protect it, and both the desire AND WILL to work at making it become the best place it can be.

I personally love this grand experiment our Founding Fathers embarked upon. The US is a young country and we aren't done experimenting yet and we have much to learn (pro and con) from other societies, and to ignore the wisdom of human experience is folly. I think the Constitution is a simple and elegant recipe for society, and I hate to see it trampled by those who place their personal power and desires over the design of our government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:40 PM

Oops, lost my cookie again. That one was me above...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 01:25 PM

no. Not "justify" or "defend"......just "define" (and that's what you did, so you must not have misunderstood me too badly). I'm not showing hubris. I'm asking what you feel is "patriotic" about your world view --IF indeed you even consider yourself patriotic. I didn't ASK republican/conservative opinion because it was not the definition that has recently been highlighted by current events.

When two sides of an issue seem to disagree on the basic definition of a word, it is not hubris for one side to come to the other and ask them for clarification.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 01:42 PM

Love of your homeland, and desire for its good. That means that, if you think it's going wrong, you have a special duty to resist that.



A patriot can never want their country to rule over other countries. That meas that true patriots in all countries are on the same side.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 02:18 PM

Saw a great political cartoon about the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge, with the caribou saying A refuge is the last patriotism of the scoundrel! Hee hee!

but back to the question - I consider myself to be "patriotic" only in that I'd rather be what I am than anything else. I like my country's IDEALS better than anybody else's. But that does not mean that I like my government or think what they do is right before being proven wrong...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM

Last time I was asked was shortly after September 11; a local newspaper asked me and other people to say if our patriotism had changed.

As I recall I said my patriotism was the same as always: loyalty to the land itself and to the principles set out in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution & the Bill of Rights, rather than loyalty to any administration.

They printed it, but they didn't print the second paragraph where I said I hoped we wouldn't have a surge of misguided patriotism as we did in WWII where we interned Japanese citizens.

I like to think I'm liberal, but I hate to be labeled A Liberal. For instance I'm against eating your seed corn, which I think is conservative of me (though the upper-case-C Conservatives don't seem to mind using up irreplacable resources.) And I'm in favor of citizens owning guns. But I'm agin the Republican monopoly in Idaho and the electoral college and the whole concept of corporations.

Clint


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:00 PM

Nicole said a lot what I was going to say in the last paragraph of her post (the one where she had lost her cookie and was GUEST). Go back and read it again.


The folks who participated in that Constitutional Convention came up with one of the greatest documents ever crafted. I am patriotic as long as our elected representatives adhere to the guidelines of that document. When I see them overstepping the boundaries that were intentionally placed in their way by the framers of the Constitution, I want them to get back in the corral. There are genuine emergency situations, like the immediate aftermath of 9/11, where the boundaries of the Constitution may be temporarily stretched, but they should return to normal size as soon as possible. Creating a false, ongoing "emergency situation" to justify the usurpation of power is not just wrong, it's unpatriotic and downright treasonous. (Go back and reread 1984 and The Handmaid's Tale) And those who support leaders guilty of usurpation of power are not exhibiting patriotism - they're exhibiting jingoism. It is our patriotic duty to raise hell when President Dubya starts acting like King Dubya.

Bruce

(Who is not a member of any political party, but would be a Libertarian if he had to join one)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:17 PM

Gee. I guess we take you at your word, you don't intend to be inflamatory. And you are not challenging us liberals to defend our patritotism, just define what patriotism is. So here goes.
"Patriotism," like "nationalism," means taking a standpoint favorable to one's homeland, or state, or whatever. "Patriotism" can be defined as dedication to one's homeland, when such dedication is a good thing. "Nationalism" is a similar state of mind, when it is a bad thing. In this sense, it is like the difference between "liberty," which is freedom to do good things, and "license," which is freedom to do bad things.

So the question remains, who is a "patriot," and who is a "nationalist." And the short answer is, people who support the president's policy of making unprovoked attacks on foreign nations because they may be building weapons which sometime in the future might be used against us are "nationalists."   And some, but not all, the people who oppose it are "patriots."

Thus "patriots" are such "liberals" as me and Dick Armey. Nationalists include such conservatives as John Hardly, Joe Lieberman, and Tom Lantos. Make sense?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

I forgot to add. The point of the above is that arguing about the definition of words is not a particularly useful way of discussing public policy issues. Definitions do not tell us what is right and what is wrong. Pretending that they do only screws up usage of the language.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: NicoleC
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:36 PM

I didn't think you were being trying to be rude, John, but you were buying into a stereotype. The question presumes that all conservatives not only think of themselves at patriotic, but actually are, and liberals aren't necessarily.

If the goal is to define the issue on both sides, which is a worthy cause IMHO, why not ask conservatives to define it as well, or present you own definition in asking for clarification. Personally, I think the patriotism of many of the warmongers is very much in question in light of recent events.

As you might guess, it's a sore subject. Everyday lately some commentator or Congressman or President is accusing left-leaners of being anti-American and sub-standard citizens. Logical arguments and proof are being replaced by another round of McCarthyism.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM

Though I would agree with everything that Little Hawk has written, the word "Patriotism" has mutated and is now as *bogus* as the term "liberal". Both are thrown about by folks with agendas and PR firms to sell their agendas.

Hence, there is really no way to discuss ones "patriotism" without exposing one's beliefs, values and politics.

It's too bad, because it is a good word and goes to the heart of the best of human behavior. Hey, loyalty and love ain't bad traits.

I would agree with LH in that if it were a term that related to family, friends, community and the Earth *first* and nation and politcis way down the list then it could resurrect its own meaning, but the bridge has been burned.

Alas...

Bobert


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM

Surely no one would say that a Conservative can't be a traitor?

There've been plenty of examples - just think of the collaborators in occupied France. "Famille, Travaille, Patrie", "Family, Work, Fatherland" was what the Vichy regime put on all its coins, in place of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.

Chesterton in an essay on patriotism remarked that saying "My country right or wrong" was equivalent to saying "My mother, drunk or sober". A true son or daughter would care very much whether their mother was drunk or sober, and would want to protect her from coming to harm, or harming anyone else - and a true patriot cares very much whether their country is right and wrong, and wants to protect it from coming to harm, or doing harm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 04:15 PM

Heh, heh! (smiling) I knew right after I hit "submit" that Wolfgang or some other smart cookie would catch me on that "pater" statement...

Yes, the word "patriotism" comes more directly from the Latin word "patria", meaning fatherland or homeland...which itself comes from "pater", meaning father. I believe there were fathers (conceptually speaking) before there was a "fatherland", as such...so the concept "father" is the original root concept here.

As for "matriotism", I believe I invented that word, to illustrate a point. Pater-patria-patriotism is analogous to mater-matria-matriotism.

Wolfgang, if you cannot see the innate tendency toward a patriarchal mindset in the western (and eastern) societies of the last few thousand years, I doubt that any argument I could put forward would sway you, convincing or not. That there are some interesting exceptions to the rule does not change it very much. The Russians, for example, make at least one exception in that they speak of their land as "Mother Russia". Very neat! I have always liked that. There is a magnificent statue of Mother Russia (I presume that's who she is supposed to represent) near the formerly named Stalingrad holding up a sword as a memorial of the defense of that city in 1942-43. There are other examples too, plenty of them. Still, we live in a very patriarchal society in general, and that has been abetted by the three major religions that arose out of the Middle East...which seem to have a damned hard time getting along with each other! (I would say, because they are all 3 paranoid, exclusive, and intolerant in the extreme.) Moses should come back, sit them all down, and give them a good lecture, considering how they all accord him a special place in their holy books. How ridiculous it all is!

The USA, by the way, has never had a female head of state. Never. Its media has little use for women who are not young, sexy, and conventionally beautiful. The USA is a patriarchal society, with a vengeance. (But they do have a female "Liberty" figure on some of their coins and standing out in front of New York Harbour...)

It is common political/national patriotism which is "the last refuge of a scoundrel". I agree with that assessment, although such patriotism comes naturally to all people, and is therefore quite understandable...it's just that scoundrels have a way of using it to their own advantage! Again, and again, and again...

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

Mother England, Mother Russia, Mother India, Mother Ireland, Brittania, motherland, mother country, The Poor Old Woman, Marianne...



And "patria" is grammatically feminine.



And of course, Mother Earth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 07:40 PM

Patriotism is one of those sneaky, slippery words that ought to be banned. Every group that flaunts it seems to mean something a little different... or entirely different. The best definition I ever saw was a from W C Fields (the world's greatest juggler and a damn fine lock picker): "My country, right or wrong, is a lot like 'My mother, drunk or sober'.". When forced, I give my loyalty first to the ideals of the Constitution, then to the land itself, and then to Society. Let the damn people take care of themselves. They caused all the trouble in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 08:23 PM

McGrath - Yeah. Mother India is the queen of them all, I think. The Divine Mother is an enormously important archetype in India.

Let's face it, it's hard to deny the existence and worth of approximately one half of the human race, isn't it? It is possible to put that half in a somewhat disempowered position though, God knows...and invent a bunch of social myths to justify it. Then it's possible to have a backlash to that in which some members of the disadvantaged group get such a big chip on their shoulders about having been "wronged" as to become totally obnoxious. Anybody seen that happen??? I've seen it happen bigtime, with regard to race, religion, gender, and so on.

I would say that equality is the cornerstone of a just society, and that includes gender-based equality. So the ideal is to be neither matriarchal or patriarchal but to achieve a harmonious balance between the two...to the point where it would no longer even be an issue whether a political candidate, let's say, was a male or a female...no more than it should be an issue whether they are of one or another religion or race. The question is, what is their personal nature and what are their beliefs, capabilities and intentions?

In other words, look beyond the mask of surface appearances.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 09:32 PM

IMHO<

There comes a point sometimes, where the patriotic thing to do would be to impeach the president... Patriotism is a conservative impulse that can say no! to the multinational scourge thats got most of the world over a barrel... Patriotism can throw off the shackles of all kinds of oppression... Patriotism has nothing to do with war sometimes... Patriotism is taking care of your country folk as 'job one'... Patriots generally protect their 'homeland'... Patriots reject corruption as soon as it is detected... Patriots see the good qualities in their fellow country men/women, and encourage the health of the nation... And, I believe that a good patriot in this day and age, would feel compelled to protect the natural environment... from precisely the people who are commonly labeled 'conservatives'...
   

There is a common misunderstanding about what is deemed conservative and what is liberal/radical... Many of us greens and alternative party seekers are far more 'conservative' than the global corporate business parties representitives... By desiring to improve the general welfare of the people in all countries, we are, in saying so, declaring ourselves to be 'radicals'... So much BS really... Self determination is going to encourage conservative values eventually... But the 'conservatives' of this country want their 'inalienable right' to manipulate the economies of most of the world... a 'radical' belief at best...


'At the end of the day', the true patriot in this country attempts, to the best of his/her ability, to uphold his/her interpretation of The Constitution of the United States...and, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... And the true patriot stays informed about the pertinent issues by getting serious about gathering 'facts'... thereby rejecting ALL propaganda as unpatriotic. Democracy can only function with a well informed, involved, and caring population.ttr


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:41 PM

Little Hawk said:

"Politics is the business of conquest...conquest of people's hearts and minds, conquest of land and resources, conquest of the seat of power, conquest of financial control, conquest of religious or secular dogma over opposing dogma."

I propose a different thought about politics.

Politics is an aspect of all levels of human life. In its most generic terms it is the effort to control the flow of the power which resides in the association of two or more human beings.

For instance, John and Mary are going out on a date. John wants to see a shoot-em-up action movie, and Mary wants to see a sweet romantic movie. Each wants to influence the outcome of their joint power to do something that evening, and lobbies for his/her choice. That, my friends, is politics at the grassroots level.

The folk club has people who want to run meetings as singarounds; it also has people who want general jamming. That's politics, the effort to exercise the joint power the group has in a particular way.

The community has people who want the schools to have bands and plays and a wide variety of sports. Other citizens want every action taken possible to cut costs and thus taxes. There are arguments, and people run for the school board, others support them as organizations like "Citizens for Better Schools", or maybe "Citizens for Responsible Government", a sort of proto-political party in each case.

In each of these cases, from two people up to worldwide, it's the built-in human drive to control the power that lies in human association, that constitutes politics. There's no difference, from top to bottom: It's all politics.

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:43 PM

"Nationalists include such conservatives as John Hardly, Joe Lieberman, and Tom Lantos. Make sense?"

holy crap!!! *big incredulous grin* You don't have any idea what I believe or where I stand on this or any other issue (and if you took the long, boring time out to check back postings -- on at least this issue you'd find that I'm conflicted at best -- and not in support of a military action). I am nothing short of stunned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 11:14 PM

Well John, Lieberman is not usually considered a "conservative," and Lantos sure as hell isn't a conservative. But they happen to be hawks. And when I mentioned myself and Dick Armey as "liberals," I thought there was a clue there that I might be saying something like: The exercise of defining words, like "patriotism" and "liberal" and "conservative" too easily becomes a substitute for thinking about an actual issue.

Certainly I did not intend to insult you, except to the extent I doubt the merit of the question you asked. Which was, after all, addressed to "those of you who are liberal/Democrats."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: John Hardly
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 11:35 PM

ok. makes sense. (I "got" the Armey thingy -- though I still think that, given the rest of your post, calling me a "nationalist" was an insult whether you meant it or not. I'm willing to call it a misunderstanding draw if'n you are.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 04:23 AM

I like Uncle Dave's description of "politics", because effectively it is a reminder of the difference between that word and the word "policy" - a line which is too frequently blurred. I have also enjoyed the discussion of the word "patriotism". I think that for many years it was hijacked by people whose policies sent some young men to die in ditches in other lands, or left others to sleep in cardboard boxes in front of overpriced department stores. If people like that are patriots I am proud to proclaim myself a traitor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:55 AM

Or the other option is to recognize that "people whose policies sent some young men to die in ditches in other lands, or left others to sleep in cardboard boxes in front of overpriced department stores" are the traitors.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 07:27 AM

Is it so difficult to understand, LH?

but we're coming out of a patriarchal age, so it hasn't been called that

My point was this line of argumentation, not whether there is/was a patriarchal age. I don't doubt for a second that we have been living for a very long time in such an age, but I doubt that this is the reason for the naming of 'patriotism'.

I just had a look into a German dictionary. There are more composite words with 'mother' than with 'father' and most of them have very positive connotation. I don't buy a reasoning that picks out one of these words ('fatherland') and explains them as resulting from the patriarchal age and shrug off all others ('mothersoil') as exceptions from a rule.

It could of course be different in English, but McGrath has given you more examples than I could have.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM

Patriotism is a misnomer, based on the LAtin patria, a word which means lineage. It has a male-lineage root because lineage (inheritance of name, possessions and family identity) was patrilinear in Roman and Greek dominant societies.

It is a misnomer because it does not really have to do with love of country except on a shallow, rhetorical basis.

It is the defense and perpetuation of a set of agreements which one believes will best serve his well-being in the future, and the well-being of groups with whom those agreements are shared.

Being an American, however, has much less to do with loving a territory than it does with having a strong preference for the social agreements that define the group.

Obviously, those agreements prosper when they have territory on which to be implemented, so defending the land is a natural close concomitant.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 10:27 AM

John Hardly:


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 10:31 AM

Oos, goofed.
I define patriotism in part by the measure a citizen of a country accepts, supports, and is willing to impliment his or her nation's foreign and domestic policy.

As I usually have doubts, misgivings, and disagreements with the USA's policies I don't consider myself patriotic at all. Presently I am in diametric oposition to the Bush Administration's foreign policy concerning the Middle East.
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM

Even with all the definitions that any of us can concoct here in this thread, I am quite certain that if hell has a religion, it is patriotism. Indeed, the cyclonic concept of Patriotism (with a capital "P"), only rears it's swirling headwinds in times of disaster to allow the powers of the various lands to muster the troops to the cause at hand-----a cause that might very possibly demand that those troops march to their deaths. And people will die for an ideal like this only providing that vision isn't quite clear to them. Indeed, some causes are more "just" than other causes---but that depends on one's viewpoint. For me, that's a whole other ethical can of maggots that are outside this disussion. Given that scenario, though, and in other words, patriotism can, in a situation where a U.S. president might be striving to clear his daddy's record, be seen as nothing more than a crooked corporate accountant trying to cook the books to allow this to fly below the low radar of our none-too-perceptive lowest common intellects.

For me, that's it in a nutshell. I am NOT reducung a big topic to bumper-sticker slogans here. As I see it, all the extra verbage just makes the waters impossible to see through.

Art Thieme


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM

Look, Wolfgang, give me a break...or...

"Throw me a frickin' bone!" (Dr Evil)

The fact is, I am simply not as brilliant as you, never will be, and you must bear this in mind and indulge me from time to time, allowing me my inaccuracies in reasoning and my eccentricities of habit and belief... (grin) :-)

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 01:00 PM

"Being an American, however, has much less to do with loving a territory than it does with having a strong preference for the social agreements that define the group." (Amos)

Agreed. I was a "patriotic" little kid. My teachers taught me a whole set of ideals that America stood for. I knew the Flag Code, I drew pictures of the flag, I memorized and recited the Pledge of Allegiance, and even before my voice changed, I knew all the verses of "The Star Spangled Banner." I grew into adolescence during World War II, and I was fiercely patriotic. I was a member of the Boy Scouts. In addition to the outdoor activities, the organization taught and tried to practice "American values." In history and civics classes in high school I was taught American history, all about the stated ideals of the Founding Fathers, and all about the Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights. I heartily embraced the social agreements that I was taught America stood for.

I gradually learned over the years that what I had agreed to and what was being practiced in reality were two very different things. As the years passed, I saw the stated values and the reality diverging further and further. I leave it to you as a valuable exercise to contemplate those "American values" we were all taught and the many ways the reality we live in has diverged from those values.

As I understand it, to say one thing and then do another is not Democracy—it's called Hypocrisy.

I am reminded of a statement that author Morris L. West (The Shoes of the Fisherman) made in his slim, autobiographical volume entitled A View from the Ridge: The Testimony of a Twentieth-Century Christian. I can't recall his exact words, but in essence, he says that people sometimes ask him why he, a one-time staunch Catholic, left the church he had grown up in. He responds "I did not leave the Church. The Church left me."

I thoroughly understand what West means.

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM

One thing that is often tied in with patriotism is a certain small scale quality to it. I feel there's a sense in which you can only feel real patriotism for somewhere relatively small - a country or a region, not an empire.

I would wonder whether there is a different way that people in America might feel about their native state, and about the whole vast amalgamation of United States. I don't mean not feeling loyalty and all that, but maybe patriotism isn't quite the right word. That's seems consistent with what Amos said - "Being an American, however, has much less to do with loving a territory than it does with having a strong preference for the social agreements that define the group."

I love my planet, but I'd question whether "patriotic" is the right word for that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,AHJ
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM

I'd suggest that if we could persuade ourselves to see ourselves as belonging to a Terran lineage (male OR female would do), we could exert persuasive influence toward Terran patriotism. But it's a path that would have to break a lot of dank old shells and self-constructed dungeons of self-definition anchored to more parochial visions of identity.

Still, it's an idea worth pursuing; just as "real Americans" don't like to see others littering the cities and prairies, maybe "real Terrans" would take vociferous exception to others corroding the planet, its biosystems, and its species, including homo sapiens knottus.

We could have a Terran anthem, Terran ethnic music, Terran recipes, dances, art styles, and even styles of literature that were peculiarly Terran, of which one progenitor might be Robert Heinlein.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 02:02 PM

I think most of us belong to both a male and a female lineage.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM

Surely, in fact -- but how are you gonna get people to march in defense of Mon'n'DadLand?

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 06:33 PM

Earthman speak with forked tongue.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 06:45 PM

LOL!! There you go again -- putting words into the mouths of aliens!!


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 03:25 PM

"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion,
but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."
- Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 04:08 PM

If someone hasn't already quoted it,(or even if he has) there's:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 05:06 PM

"Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towars anyone" - last words of Nurse Edith Cavell.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

Adlai Stevenson and Nurse Cavell were what I would call pretty good people, and pretty enlightened too.

Terran patriotism would become a normal thing, if we were confronted with visitors from space (openly and officially, I mean, so no one could doubt that they were there...), and...if we had a truly united society with the same rights, benefits, and privileges everywhere.

If I may quote Picard, it's time to "make it so".

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 07:42 PM

If we're into considering a more expanded Patriotism, why be parochial and stop at the Earth? Chesterton suggested we think of the universe in that way.

"My acceptance of the universe is not optimism, it is more like patriotism. It is a matter of primal loyalty. The world...is the fortress of our family, with the flag flying on the turret, and the more miserable it is the less we should leave it...When you do love a thing, its gladness is a reason for loving it, and its sadness a reason for loving it more."

(That comes from The Flag of the World, a chapter in a book called Orthodoxy. Contains lots of thought about "patriotism" worth mulling over.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:16 PM

No one particular post to quote, but I do not confuse ,and draw a bright line betwen , "patriotism" in contrast with the more traditional "nationalism" which grew out of "tribalism".
Tribes making war on other tribes is as old as tribalism itself.

I make this distinction in light of how America is different in that there is no real sense of "national ethnicity" in the way the ancient regimes identify themselves as such. The Euro tribes that arouse out of the disintegration of the Roman Superstate
which was a mega-scale of the same campaign of regional tribal incorproation that England went through trying to conquor all of its tribes to serbe under one crown and then under one church created by that same crown.

Patriotism was given a new definition when it was in defense of an identity drawn from an idea, a set of principals ,as opposed to what mostly amounts to a confederacy of tribal identities organized and given a larger identity under some form of royalty or Hapsburgian panoply.

A more current example of agressive "nationalism" that jumps off the page is what Beijing has been enforced and socially engineered so that *any* criticism of Beijing is immediately labeled as "anti-Chinese" and followed by Orwellian mass shake-ones-fist-at-the-west exercises.

I am also very aware , and the first to voice critique , of the present administration ginning up the war rhetoric and defining "patriotism" on their terms only.

That is why I make the point to broaden the concept of *Patriotism* in defense of the principals that created this particular body politique to include making damn sure this system is not just hijacked by just an ideologically-driven agenda . Preservation of the intergrity of those founding set of principals that have continued to evolve requires the kind of more inclusive *patriotism* that watches its own government like a hawk and not let it get away with the half-baked war plan as was allowed back during the failed solution to IraQ AND Afghanistan.

I guess I'm stressing *patriotism* as a specific genre of *stewardship* as opposed to the "My country ,right or wrong"
*nationalism* that can manipulated.

Obviously the radical Islamist jihadists are every bit "Islam ,right or wrong" and have proven that they are quite willing to give their lives to commit atrocities . And yet each and every nation-state that harbors these "pan-Islamist tribal warriors" is atleast an "authoritarian" or "royal" theocracy when not an outright totalitarian dictatorship. Knowing this where does *patriotism* even apply in their acts. This is as much the perversion of any concept of "patriotism" as the Islamic scholars are only now beginning to acknowledge in public lectures, for the record, as the outright "perversion" of Islam as a trans-national identity.



Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 10:46 PM

I think I drew a line between patriotism and nationalism above. It's "patriotism" when one approves of it, and "nationalism" when one doesn't. It's that simple.

I suggest that before we can ever aspire to Universal patriotism, we must first achieve Galactic Patriotism. Here's to the good old Milky Way!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 11:06 AM

(quote)
"I think I drew a line between patriotism and nationalism above. It's "patriotism" when one approves of it, and "nationalism" when one doesn't. It's that simple."

Well you may have drawn the line in "your mind" , but the distinction between the two has *never* been "that simple".
If only it were , but it's *not*!

I know , " it's just my opinion " , but it is so far removed from the record of the "real politique" of sociological record as to be meaningless. The world does not exist in your mind ,but on its own very real playing field ( battlefield ) terms.

It's great to be as idealistically "free spirited" as ol' Tom Jefferson as that's where new ideas comes from , but then also look at what a rank hypocrite he also turned out to be;
All men ( except slaves ) are created equal with inalienable rights from "The Creator". Meanwhile your appeal to some kind of "galactic" La-la land definition of patriotism offers little of practical use.

Your post also appears to be making an almost flippant correlation to the originally quoted " One 's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter" which grew out of the fierce debate over the Reagan admin's justifying of their para-military support for the contra's as supporting "freedom fighters". The Iran-Contra Hearings took care of the credibility for the official spin on that mis-definition of "freedom-fighter patriotism".

Nationalism has far more ominous overtones whereas mere patriotism is employed as the medium of manipulation towards that end *only* if we allow it .

That is why I make the distinction of broadening "patriotism" to including vigilant *stewardship* of those founding principles and raisng voices whren political manipulation is ginned-up.
That patriotism of *stewardship* means *pre-emptively* holding each & every administration and Congress and party-in-power to account for their actions. The *patriotism* I define is designed to pre-empt any slippery-slope sliding into the rank *nationalism*
that the Euros and the Japanese historically know so well and the pan-Islamic world is attempting to engineer through its media of choice starting with its Wahabi-influenced mosques.

And since the Al-Quaeda network of self-proclaimed "terrorist jihadists" has already brought their war against the West to our home shores ( Their *ideal* world meaning even *you* should die ) a showdown has already been set into motion even if the U.S. and whomever else considers themselves a targeted Westerner does nothing. I still far prefer tighter *containment* of Iraq as the blockading of Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis
than an all-out pre-emptive "taking of Iraq" as I beleive this will result in the same oil field inferno, blown to "biblical proprotions", as Saddam's deliberate setting of the Kuwati Oil fields only this time there won't be militarily secured ground from which to put them out.

While we're at it , whom appeals to their hearts & minds to miraculously embrace your La-la landed evangel of "galactic patriotism". Time to quite doing 'shrooms because this situation is a real as a heart attack

A very real Cold World War III with a very real network of terrorist cells , never just limted to al-Quaeda mind you , is *on* like it or not and the global black market is alive and well.

So it's not so simple as you choose to imagine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM

I though "La-La Land" was what they called Los Angeles, and by extension referred to ways of thinking and acting that are supposed to becharacteristic of tha opart of the world. Does it have some other meaning?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 12:40 PM

It suggests a place that's out of touch with reality, and I believe Los Angeles meets that criterion rather well.

And you are correct, patriotism does eventually extend beyond this planet, but one step a time, Kevin, one step at a time... :-)

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 04:58 PM

I liked the part about good looking girls. And Bobert is correct (yes I said it Bob) - or maybe it was LH?

And your point is . . . . ?

Steve

Grabbing flak vest and running for bunker *grinning*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 29 October 3:59 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.