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BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why

GUEST,GaryDon 02 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 02 - 02:39 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM
Joe Offer 02 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Amos 02 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM
Mrrzy 02 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,GaryDon 02 Oct 02 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 02 Oct 02 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Tinker 02 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM
Marion 02 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM
JedMarum 02 Oct 02 - 05:20 PM
mack/misophist 02 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM
The Walrus 02 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM
mack/misophist 02 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM
Joe Offer 02 Oct 02 - 05:44 PM
Marion 02 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM
Amos 02 Oct 02 - 06:43 PM
Joe Offer 02 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM
bbc 02 Oct 02 - 09:52 PM
katlaughing 02 Oct 02 - 11:36 PM
Joe Offer 03 Oct 02 - 01:49 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Oct 02 - 03:50 AM
Fiolar 03 Oct 02 - 09:06 AM
Marion 03 Oct 02 - 04:16 PM
SharonA 03 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM
Joe Offer 04 Oct 02 - 12:02 AM
AKS 04 Oct 02 - 08:10 AM

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Subject: Review: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: GUEST,GaryDon
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM

I was recently looking for statues of beheaded saints, seems to be alot of them. When I heard that an apostle was beheaded. I don't recall it so. Who was it and why??


Thanks for the help

Garydon


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Subject: RE: Review: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 02:39 PM

Paul. I don't think the Romans needed much of an excuse. I'd imagine it'd have been seen as some kind of subversion, preaching Christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 02:56 PM

Anybody these days know how to wrestle a lion? Might be a good skill to have.

Don Firth


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Subject: Folklore: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 03:03 PM

Anne Boleyn?
Oh, not an apostle, huh?

I had 16 years of Catholic education, eight in a seminary. Over the years, I heard lots of great stories about the sordid deaths of saints. You can find many of these stories depicted in stained glass windows, all over the world. I think it's important to remember that there is little documentation of the lives and deaths of the early saints.
It seems that some folkies are quick to condemn religious people for these stories, and to rant on and on about the lies religion imposes upon people. Hey, this stuff is folklore, wonderful folklore - I thought folkies were supposed to love folklore. Taken within that context, it's rich, colorful stuff that tells the story of the people.
OK, so now that I've given the context, here's an interesting little document I found at
http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps008.shtml
. I'll edit and excerpt it below. I suppose the author of the piece has a little more reverent view of this information than I have. Still, I think it's pretty good.
-Joe Offer-


The New Testament tells of the fate of only two of the apostles: Judas, who betrayed Jesus and then went out and hanged himself, and James the son of Zebedee, who was executed by Herod about 44 AD (Acts 12:2).
Into All the World
Reports and legends abound and they are not always reliable, but it is safe to say that the apostles went far and wide as heralds of the message of the risen Christ. An early legend says they cast lots and divided up the world to determine who would go where, so all could hear about Jesus. They suffered greatly for their faith and in most cases met violent deaths on account of their bold witness.

PETER and PAUL were both martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified, upside down at his request, since he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

ANDREW went to the "land of the man-eaters," in what is now the Soviet Union. Christians there claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

"Doubting" THOMAS was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

PHILIP possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

MATTHEW the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

BARTHOLOMEW had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

JAMES the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three Jameses referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

SIMON THE ZEALOT, so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

MATTHIAS was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

JOHN is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil at Rome.
At least four of the apostles were fishermen. Can this be part of the reason that one of the earliest and most prominent Christian symbols was the fish? The Greek word for fish, ichthus, formed an acrostic: Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter, which means "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior."


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM

I think you're thinking of John the Baptist, laid low by a fell swoop of Salome's instigation.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM

Interesting. When traveling through Europe it was a kind of family quiz game, recognizing the saints by the symbol of their martyrdom - Barbara would have little towers on her dress, or Catherine would have a wheel, or Agatha would have her breasts on a platter, or Lucy ditto her eyes, and so on. The only other thing is the "only when I laugh" bit in which Sebastian is always depicted full of arrows, although he survived that particular assault to die later. How, I don't recall...


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: GUEST,GaryDon
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 04:04 PM

Thanks for the help and the info Folks.

Joe: I agree with your folkie statement. Is especially nice since I am not a christian, the lore aspect is as fun as any other folk lore.

All too often individuals feel the need to preach for or against what they believe without accepting the right of another individual to believe as they wish. That absence of preaching or belittlement being the true expression of freedom and respect for self and others.

GaryDon


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 04:14 PM

always troubled by the many and various ways men have created to torture and kill, usually in the name of a god.

Jesus supposedly hung on the cross for three measly hours, then was mercifully dispatched with a spear. Not so bad, really. That's all it took for the sins of all mankind, past present & to come? Plea bargain, maybe do you think?

Others, both in his name and those opposed to him were left to hang till they rotted away and worse, the spaniards were particularly gruesome in the manner of death they devised for the poor pagan native americans, who might go to heaven if they accepted the faith, but were put to death anyway.

The Cross of S. Andrew is another instance (like Peter) of not wanting to exhibit the hubris of dying as the 'Lord' did.

But what about the hubris of enduring even more difficult torture than he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: GUEST,Tinker
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM

Jesus was publically tortured to death for three hours after a night of being savagely beaten and denied food and sleep, and Bill says "Not bad, really"?? Care to try that one, Bill?

And by the way, he was dead before being stabbed by the spear. The spear did not "mercifully dispatch" him.

More killing has been done in the name of political ideology than religion, I'd say, at least in the past few centuries. Stalin didn't care what god you worshipped, nor did Arafat, Allende, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hirohito or a whole bunch of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Marion
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:07 PM

Amos, you're right that John the Baptist was beheaded, but he wasn't one of the Apostles.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:20 PM

Saddam beheaded a few of his former disciples, placed their heads on spikes in front of their homes, to remind families and neighbors, I guess, that it's not nice to cross Saddam.

I believe that John the Baptist, not one the 12 Apostles, the one beheaded, Garydon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM

A few facts about crucifixion: Most were tied into place as nails were expensive. The use of nails shows a severe crime or a desire to kill quickly. Death might take as long as 3 or 4 days, especially in caqses where a foot rest was used, since death was caused by the weight of the torso being distributed across the rib cage, making breathing a special trial. Death was from asphixiation. NOTE: If one of the soldiers truly offered vinegar on a sponge, it was a kindly act. The legions did not drink water. Vinegar, wine, or beer. How do you imagine they were able to campaign without losing half their numbers to dysentary or cholera?


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: The Walrus
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM

One minor point.
I seem to recall that the usual "crime" for which early Christians were arrested (and executed), by the Romans, was ATHIEISM, for refusing to sacrifice to the State dieties(including, in some cases, the Emperor).

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM

Beheaded saints were especially popular with the gothic cathedral decorators. Could GaryDon actually been looking at St Denis? One finds his head all over France. Paris especially, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:44 PM

In my pious younger days, I thought it was unfair that John the Baptist didn't get Apostle status. Hey, maybe he should have been a pre-postle???
Oh, well, he did get special attention from Rita Hayworth....er, Salome.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Marion
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

You haven't been reading your Bible, Joe! John the Baptist didn't get any special attention from Salome (unless you consider her requesting his death to be special).

What happened was that King Herod was shacking up with his brother's wife, who was Salome's mother. John the Baptist told Herod that he shouldn't be shacking up with his brother's wife, so Herod imprisoned him to shut him up but didn't especially want him killed. But the brother's wife kept a grudge, and it was she who encouraged Salome to request his death.

It might make a play sexier to have the dancing girl spurned by John the Baptist then seek revenge, but that's not what the good book says.

Don, even more useful than knowing how to wrestle a lion is knowing how to convert one. There are several stories of saints who the lions declined to eat (besides the Biblical story of Daniel in the lions' den). In one of these stories (I forget which saint) the guy meets the lion in the wild and pulls a thorn out of his paw. Later the saint is arrested and the lion is captured, but when they meet again in the arena, the lion remembers him and doesn't eat him. Good story.

There's also a number of stories of women who disguised themselves as men back in the days when male monasticism was the ideal but female monasteries hadn't been started up yet. St. Hilarion of Eygpt is one example. The story goes that she was sent out to town to be a parish priest, where a girl in the congregation who got pregnant decided to shift the community's blame off her by accusing the priest of seducing her. St. Hilarion was thrown out of the monastery for this, but as act of mercy she didn't contradict the girl's story, and raised the baby herself. It was only after her death that it was discovered that she was a woman.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 06:43 PM

I was aware John the Baptist was not an apostle, but I was not aware of the threads that Joe so kindly provided leading to their varied deaths. Thanks, Joe.

Religion as folklore is a rich and wonderful vein, and should be honored.

On the other hand, many people come to realize that it is unliekly that the witch really put Hansel into an oven, and that a good pumpkin is just a pumpklin.

Now if someone runs around insisting that everyone starts clapping their hands in order to save Tinkerbell, it kinda makes you wonder, dunnit?

(I mean no offense. I honor every man and woman's right to find their own truths concerning these things.)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM

Hey, Marion, Salome/Rita Hayworth did that dance in his honor.
What a way to go...
Well, at least that's the way my imagination sees it. I doubt that the writers of Scripture could have imagined Rita Hayworth, anyhow.

-Joe Offer, who does have a degree in theology, mind you-


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: bbc
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 09:52 PM

According to a book I have on the apostles, James, the son of Zebedee, was decapitated at the order of Herod Agrippa. He died, rather than renounce his faith. The story is told in the Bible in Acts 12:1-2. James was the 1st of the apostles to die.

bbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 02 - 11:36 PM

This is all very interesting. As a little aside, re' the lions who wouldn't fight the prisoners, there have been several documented instances of vegetarian, non-violent lionesses, including Little Tyke and, one from the 1930's who was with Krishnananda, also mentioned in that link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 01:49 AM

I have a friend who is a Franciscan priest. For many years, Father Barry was pastor of a beautiful Catholic church in Sacramento, built by Germans in about 1900. Barry directed a restoration of the building, and did a great job. The church has a couple dozen stained glass windows, many of them depicting rather gruesome saint stories.

Outside, just above the main entrance of the church, is a statue of St. Francis, with what looks like a dog house at his feet - you know the story of St. Frank and his love of animals, right?
Well, I asked Barry what the house was for. Barry admitted the statue depicted St. Francis contemplating a skull that was lying at his feet. Barry said he was OK with the stained glass; but he just couldn't handle a skull right there on the front of the church, so he put the doghouse there.

I gave Barry a hard time about being a "revisionist," and we had a good laugh about it. I think that's the general attitude among practicing Catholics nowadays - those quaint old beliefs have no real meaning in today's world, but they're fun to remember - and they're a colorful part of our past.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 03:50 AM

Despite the "Catherine Wheel" described in art by Mrrzy, it is a common misconception that Catherine was put to death on the wheel. According to the legend/(history?) she was put to the wheel, but the wheel burst, leaving her unharmed. She was subsequently beheaded.

Iconography gives each saint a recognisable symbol so that they can be identified in paintings or stained glass, St Catherine is always shown with the wheel,(Catherine of Alexandria, not Catherine of Siena), She is also shown with a sword. The sword is a common symbol used to represent those saints who suffered martyrdom.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Fiolar
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:06 AM

Regarding the death of Paul - we learned in school that Paul was a Roman citizen and as such had the "right" to be beheaded rather than the other forms of execution which were extant in the Roman Empire at that time. Coming forward some fourteen or fifteen hundred years, all the nobility in England who were executed for one reason or another were all beheaded, unlike the common folk who were likely to end up at the end of a rope or be burned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Marion
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 04:16 PM

So Joe, did you spend all your classes fantasizing about actresses, or just the Johannine Scripture class?

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM

Marion mentions "the guy [who] meets the lion in the wild and pulls a thorn out of his paw. Later the saint is arrested and the lion is captured, but when they meet again in the arena, the lion remembers him and doesn't eat him." Wasn't that guy Androcles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 12:02 AM

Click here for three versions of Androcles and the Lion. The story apparently doesn't have religious connections - but it's a darn good story. It's at a fascinating site called Folktexts.
This page (click) has some great saint stories, and tells the tale of Saint Gerasimus, who did indeed pull a thorn from a lion's paw.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Which Apostle was Beheaded & Why
From: AKS
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 08:10 AM

Just off the topic: guest Tinker, of all possible candidates on this planet, how did Allende (if you mean Salvador, of Chile) end up to your list??? If I'm not very much mistaking, even his humble and human successor (gen. Pinochet) has considerably more impressive recommendations in that respect!

AKS


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Mudcat time: 15 May 7:18 AM EDT

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