Tech: Browser problem

Subject: Tech: Browser problem
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:14 PM

A friend of mine (who is relatively new at this) created the website for my band Greenhouse. It looks fine in Internet Explorer, but I use Opera, where it only shows up as a blank page.

My friend says he doesn't know how to make it compatible with all browsers. Can anyone help?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:19 PM

It doesn't come out as a blank page on Opera for me. Just looks completely different from on Internet Explorer - one one record cover and the table of links, which seem to work fine.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From:
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:27 PM

McGrath, which version of Opera? I am using 5.11 and it comes up blank for me.

Michaelr, I suspect that you might try an updated version of Opera. I am using 5.11 and it shows up as a blank page. Your web-page uses Java and Cascading Style Sheets, and I suspect Opera 5.11 doesn't handle them well. PErhaps the updated Opera may solve your problem.

Other than that, it looks fine.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:28 PM

tsk!..well, if it says right up top that it is best in IE, he has a problem!
   It may be it was created in FrontPage, which has some extra 'stuff' that is NOT compatable with other browsers...Microsoft would LOVE for everyone to decide they had to throw out all other browsers just so they could view pages made with a non-standard editor....

No thanks..I'll keep my Opera, Mozilla, Netscape...etc...

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:41 PM

Opera 6.04 (which is a free download incidentally)

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 08:42 PM

Totally agree with Bill

Get him to read Dick Gaughan's Rant on Web Design

Then make him read it again.

In terms of increasing browser compatibility, learning html rather than depending on an authouring package is probably the easiest way.

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:51 PM

I have Opera 6.0 - will try the update.

Bill D - he put that disclaimer up there after I told him about the problem, not initially. (of course you can't see that in Opera, either, so it doesn't make much sense...) Oh well, he did it for free, so I got more than I paid for. Sure would like to get it fixed, though...

Would that require a re-desing from the ground up?

Thanks for all the help so far!
Michael

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:59 PM

I looks the same to me in Opera 6, Navigator 4.79, and Konqueror3.0. The Billg won't let me use Expl;orer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 10:37 PM

By the way, there IS no way to make a site compatible with all browsers. As long as Gates and Netscape want to play silly buggers with each other, there won't be. (They're playing games with the code.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From:
Date: 03 Oct 02 - 11:04 PM

Sure there is a way to make web-pages which ARE compatible with ALL browsers.

Make them do the page with a mind to keeping it simple. By using the basic HTML markup language which doesn't conflict on different browsers you can see it in a reasonable form on all browsers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 01:11 AM

So if I change my browser the new mudcat will make sense?

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Ed.
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM

Michael,

Would that require a re-desing from the ground up?

Yes. But it's not a big thing. Your pages are quite simple and could easily be displayed in virtually the same way with simple html commands that would work in every browser.

If you want to PM me the designer's email, I'll be happy to provide some advice.

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 01:18 PM

also...there are both programs AND web pages which will look at your page and analyze it for HTML compatability...and make suggestions...(I don't have the web page handy right now...but....

One program is Arachnophilia, which has a feature called 'beautify'...with subcategories of 'analyze', 'compress', 'beauitfy HTML', and 'beautify code'

the program is freeware, and now exists in a totally rewritten JAVA format, but is still available in the standard format for those who don't wish to install JAVA yet....

look at http://arachnoid.com/

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 01:21 PM

note...Paul Lutus, who wrote Arachniphilia, is both a genius and a rabid Microsoft critic, so ANYTHING he does is designed to adhere to standard code, and avoid Microsoft eccentricities....there are links on his page explaining why.....

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 04:04 PM

Thanks for the input, everyone. After reading Dick Gaughan's rant, the first thing I'll do is have my web guy take that disclaimer off!

Then we'll go from there. Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 07:56 PM

I've just been round a similar loop and it transpires that Netscape (up to 4.96) runs Java 1.0, Java 1.1 for Ver 5 and above.
IE 5.5 runs Java 1.1 (I suspect IE 4.0 up, too)
Versions of Opera I am not sure.

MTMLkit reports that my HTML appears to be compatible with HTML 3.0 which is fine by me as the whole excercise was to ensure as much backward compatability.
Even Casio UK forced me to load Flash just to find after 5mins they weren't even upto date on their products. It is a real turn-off if the clever stuff looks stupid.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 09:06 PM

I think Java is up to 1.3 & 1.4 for a lot of new things...Opera can be gotten with or without, but they do give you a recent version...

but there are odd little Java specialty things...usually a Java application will tell you what you need before you start.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 06:12 AM

Java 2.99999 will be wonderful and please your PC but not necessarilly the browser thereupon. If problems are reported amongst enough users you have to restrict the cleverness. I did.

Surfers don't blame themselves for using legacy systems and firewall constricted browsers. They say your website is badly designed and they have a point.

MORAL - dumb down.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: treewind
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 07:08 AM

Of course web pages can be made compatible with any browser.

But first you have to understand that web pages are about content, not about an exact graphic design..
A lot of people don't understand that HTML is NOT DTP
For this reason, graphics designers do not make good web page designers.

One of the worst examples (though it does at least work on any browser) is the page that renders all the text as graphic. You get the fonts and the colours looking the same for everyone, but will take a long time to load and you won't get listed on any search engines. Which is more important?

The aim is not to look the same on all broiwsers, but to look sensible (even if different) on all browsers, and to be useable. There is a craft to that, and it's not about making a rigidly specified design.

By the way, the Greenhouse page looks OK on Galeon, which is a fairly lightweight but very cabable browser for the Linux Gnome desktop.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 12:19 AM

Hi all,
I'm the guy who did Michaelr's Greenhouse web site.
First of all I'd like to say thank you for all of your suggestions and ideas. As Michael says, I'm pretty much a novice at this. A hobbiest at best. I learned from a set of CD Rom's so I could put up a site for my own band. Any ideas I can get are always welcome.
Secondly, as we can see from the reply's (misophist says you can't make browsers compatible and George Seto says yes you can but without Javascript or css. That looks kind of static to me), the question of browser compatiblility is far from answered.
Note to Bill D. and Ed Guest; no, I did not use Front Page or any wysiwyg in the creation of the Greenhouse page nor any of my other pages. I believe that simple html is the way to go. Unfortunately, the browsers don't read the Javascript or CSS commands the same way.
Which brings me to my third point. Anyone out there who knows differently , please let me know but I don't think that the W3C, the organization that maintains the development and standard of HTML, is in any way connected with microsoft. Like I say, please correct me if I'm wrong but why can microsoft build a system that is compatible with the W3C standard and the other browsers cannot. This is not a rhetorical question.
What ever the answer is, I will endeavor to make the pages that I have put up on the web, compatible with all browsers. It only makes sense.
Thank you one and all again!
Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: treewind
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 03:26 AM

Chris - I took a quick look at your HTML code (before you posted that, actually) and it's obviously not been created by a machine and designed to be maintainable by hand. In fact I don't see why it shouldn't work, except I'm not a javascript expert. But your approach (hand coded HTML) is what I do.

As for Microsoft, it's not that their browser is W3C copmpatible and others aren't. The real complaint against them is that they add lots of "extensions" to the standard, which they quietly exploit in their web page creation tools, so that pages created by the latter look fine in Explorer but not on other browsers. Netscape used to do the same. In some cases thoses extensions are useful or so widespread that they can't be ignored and in some form later become part of the W3C standard.

As for your point about "static" pages, my previous remark about the web being all about content applies again. What keeps visitors coming back is interesting and frequently updated content. Any amount of flashy effects and javascript will not help if your pages go out of date.

Anyway, keep it up, you are doing a good job and taking (IMO) the right approach. I hope you'll be able to replace that "best viewed with MSIE" banner away and replace it with a "Best viewed with Any Browser" campaign sticker soon. Yes, such an organisation exists:
http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ and the info there might help.

Also try www.echoecho.com for lots of useful tools for HTML help and evaluating your website in various ways.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 07:53 AM

treewind -
If you have an obscure (relative to MS) browser and you have a spare moment any chance you could look at http://cresby.com ? Apart from noticing any obvious (not to me that is) sillies it would be nice to know if Galleon handles my few lines of java that exorcises the framed banner ad. TIA

GUEST,Chris
Sadly the lowest common denominator is technically fairly low
and regards the users - almost as low. They are there to be informed and they might like to think a bit but not if they are just surfing - I have found they need help and it takes another brain to tell you what is not so blindingly obvious. A tech savvy user with a fresh take on what you are doing is a great help. It was a hard lesson for me. The ISP and webspace you use may not help. eg I no longer use Angelfire, they have a file size limit they don't tell you about, and loading via their FTP/preview may not reveal it.
Have a couple of old browsers just for checking - Netscape 4.5 and IE4 say should tell something before you go public on a new iteration of the page.
My experience is: - go to the site from another machine (I am down at the library here) and see what happens. Try all the links - the one you don't is the one that is broken - usually. Murphy was right!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 07:55 AM

Oh yes GIF files are older than JPG (more legacy browsers handle them)and can load in layers (check the file format when you save) so it keeps the surfers interest. And avoid frames

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: treewind
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 05:13 AM

Mr Red, your site looks fine to me (thought I don't know what I may be missing), and the advert popped up but then vanished, which I suspect is as good as you're going to get if you've put in code to kill the advert.

Sadly the lowest common denominator is technically fairly low
One of the problems especially with Javascript is that there are many different versions, supported to different degrees by different browsers. HTML and CSS are moving targets too. Most browsers have pretty good CSS1 compliance by now, and can display PNG which is the royalty-free alternative to GIF.

But a page does not have to leave out everything that isn't supported by all browsers. The idea is that if a browser doesn't have some capability, the site will degrade gracefully and all the content will still be available.

So for example a fancy Java based navigation system is fine, as long as it's backed up by usable plain HTML navigation system which
reaches all the same information.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: MudGuard
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 05:28 AM

At line 17, there is what should be the end of an HTML comment --> but it is --!>

Therefore the rest of the page is still considered to be comment and gets mangled up ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 02:30 PM

Mudgaurd is that my site?
treewiind. Ta. If the banner ad was not there Java is doing it's job.

er - "pretty good CSS1 compliance by now" yea the problem is the non-techie users who get machines from others or don't want a new one. So I default to a fairly low level.
My java covers 1.1 and 1.0 both and if neither then I have a blickie so I sort of arrived at that by listening to complaints and digging- it is a hard lesson because often people don't know why and don't tell you what you need to know.
Most just say "It don't werk" even if they could have observed more closely why should they? Which makes it slow progress.
But there are always helpfull catters

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 08:33 PM

Ok!...I found the page I was thinking of that will check and validate your code online...

try http://validator.w3.org/ and see if it gives any good suggestions...

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 01:56 AM

Hello again,
   And thanks again. Especially to treewind for clearing up my question about micrsoft. I wasn't aware of the "extensions" situation. And your remark about content is very understanable. Much appreciated!
   Mr. Red; it's sad to think about the lowest common denominator but you are probably right.
   Regards,
   Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: MudGuard
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:57 AM

Mr. Red, the --!> is on http://www.celticfusion.org/, the page mentioned in the original posting by michaelr.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:02 PM

The --!> is part of the ending of a CSS code.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:07 PM

Chris,

Why do you find the need to bother with CSS anyway?

Yout site could appear the same (and virtully the same in every browser) with a few table commands.

I'd post a few examples, but Joe Offer likes to keep table commands to himself. (He thinks that it makes him look clever)

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:55 PM

Hi there,
Re: CSS
To Tell you the truth I'm not quite sure. I was told at one time that that was the thing to use and I find it has a nice appearence on the page and in the coding but I really haven't found it that much more convenient then html. I used it quite a bit on http://tomhoffmann.com and it was easy to use and worked well on those pages. They (CSS commands) are confusing though since they don't work the same way in all browsers. Most of the time I just use a hover color command and that's all.
I've also heard from a number of people that tables were something to avoid using. I've found them very beneficial in many cases so I would be interested in table commands that would work for eveyone. If Joe is stingy with his knowledge of table commands, are there any web sites that address this?
Thanks for the feedback.
Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:11 PM

Tables are wonderful if done right, but I think there were too many wrong 'uns causing tech problems on the Cat. You can still get tables posted here, but you have to send them to Joe first for checking and he'll then post them.

CSS is handy for getting a consistent "look and feel" to your pages - especially if you decide to change the same thing (say background from blue to navy) on 200+ pages. Beats cut 'n paste

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:21 PM

Chris,

Joe isn't stingy in providing knowledge on tables, he just won't let anyone use them here, apart from himself.

Your comment that I've also heard from a number of people that tables were something to avoid using is curious. Are you sure that you're not confusing them with frames?

Tables are the basic html design tool, and every browser that I've ever seen recognises them.

Stick 'html tables' into any decent search engine and start reading...

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:49 AM

Could be I'm confusing it with frames. I probably read it in some book somewhere. I agree with Snuffy though, tables are great tools if done right.
I'm learning more as I go along and I like it that way.
Chris

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: MudGuard
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

Chris, you are wrong.

<style type="text/css">
<!--
a:link { color:blue; }
-->
</style>

is a (short) CSS-Style-Section.
<!-- is the start of an HTML comment (to hide the CSS from very old browsers which do not know the style element.

--> is the end of that HTML comment.

--!> is not a legal end of comment in HTML.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

MudGuard,
   Gotcha! Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: Tech: Browser problem
From: MudGuard
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 05:26 PM

Chris, you're welcome!