BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM

Thats the one pooka, ye ha!

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 05:20 PM

The more I see of the political fall-out to the Raid, the more I'm convinced it was all a set-up, a conspiracy, to get the DUP and UUP out of the Assembly. Can't prove it of course!

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM

Thank you Ireland. / You may mean this one ("I bade my heart make these poor rhymes..." - Yeats):

Haul down the ladder and roll up the rope
Enough with King Billy and likewise the Pope
Up the Orange, the Green, and the Red White and Blue
This ain't 1690, it's 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:24 AM

And here's a link to a peace song I wrote when the ceasefire was new - White Snow of the Springtime.

The Thirty Years I see as a tragic detour, but perhaps they were inevitable. Giving the legacy of those years the power to destroy what's been gained in the last few years would be terrible.

Here's an article from today's Guardian by a Unionist politician who supports the Good Friday Agreement, who is clearly feeling that way, and is clearly critical of his party's present position:

The irony of this for unionists is that, just as 30 years of IRA violence was effective in preventing any political settlement developing, now the unwillingness of republicans to divest themselves of the threat of violence is having a similar effect - and by reacting in such a predictable and Pavlovian manner, unionism is again allowing republicans to dictate the future for Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 07:59 AM

I do not want to continue either Jimmy C but I do not buy into your version of the last decades and who caused the pain. I'll be charitable and say although misguided a lot of people done what they felt was the right thing to do, and obviously some were wrong.

But what is definitely wrong SF will not ask for people to come forward with information about such actions as the Omagh bomb to the police north or south. And these people want to represent all communities.

Pooka I took no offence from your barracks song or any of the lyrics you posted, I liked the one you put to the sash in a different thread, but I cannot find it.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 02:24 AM

And isn't that why it became the *Provisional* IRA? - beginning as a spinoff or splinter group in its own time, splitting off from those somewhere-down-south boys of the old brigade? / Speaking of which, I second the "now let's get back to music" motion; and accordingly, inspired by the above thought "Blame the Institutions, blame the police and blame the British Army" -

Captain Healey went away and his wife got in the family way
And the only words that she could say was "Blame the British Army"

Too ra loo ra loo ra loo, I've made me mind up what to do
I'm working my ticket home to you, and lave the British Army.

(No offense meant, Ireland. Old barracks song, the blurb I found said. Granted, the Wolfetones did record it -- before they were Decommissioned -- but then, they didn't use the verb-form "lave". :)

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 10:48 PM

Ireland - I am not explaining away Omagh - that was the work of the Real I/R.A. Sinn Fein are not the political wing of the Real I.R,A, nor the Dissident >I.R.A. or any other splinter group by whatever name. You can't put the Omagh tragedy at the feet of Sinn Fein anymore than we can put the atrocities carried out by U.D.A. at the feet of the U.V.F. or any other loyalist group.
You are trying to give the impression that the I.R.A. have been armed and waiting for years and years for a chance to cause mayhem,when that is so far from the truth. I was born and bred in North Belfast, the area most affected by the troubles. Up until 1967 I would not have known how to go about joining the I.R.A. in my area, simply because they did not exist. The I.R.A. were this group of old men somewhere down south who sat around drinking and discussing the old times. When the troubles started, the nationalist people of Belfast, Derry, South Armagh and other places had to look somewhere for protection. The government institutions and police were not going to protect them, the British Army showed their true intentions shortly after arriving, so they were of no help. The nationalist had only one avenue open and that was to go to whatever was left of the old I.R.A. for help. They were not in a position to help much either because they were themselves a very small entity, more of a laughing stock than anything else but they were willing to do something but they needed members. So the young men and women joined the ONLY group that were willing to protect the nationalist areas, and that group was the I.R.A. If the current I.R.A. and their Political wing Sinn Fein are such a force in Politics in the six counties, don't blame them, Blame the Institutions, blame the police and blame the British Army for making it necessary for the I.R.A. to be rejuvenated to protect the nationalist communities. Communities that should have been given the security they required from the same institutions, police and british army. The system created the "monster" now let them live with it. This is my last post in this thread, now lets get back to music.

Ireland - thanks for the argument, it always helps to clear the air, Good luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 06:18 PM

I will not argue on the points you raised, that was a shameful period in the history of Ireland. I will argue that you see murdering thugs as some sort of legitimate answer to the tubes that ran this country.

My grandfather left his workplace because of such signs,he had no time for such bigotry and that is a principle instilled in me, I have no time for bigotry and those who as you have done justified the use of it.

Keeping to the old rhetoric is just that keeping to the old past spent reasons not a good way to go forward. I have not got involved in the specific atrocities of the IRA and their ilk for one simple reason it dregs up the past and gives life to the whataboutery which is a counter productive exercise. Sad to know you try to explain away Omagh and such attacks in the manner you do.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM

They can not govern it unless the people vote for them. If that happens then that is democracy. If the majority elect a communist government - that also is democracy. The I.R.A. have as much right to fight against an evil corrupt regime just as much as anybody else. If the loyalists can use guns to keep the system in place then the I.R.A. has the right to use guns to change it. Remember, the state was set up because Carson etc threatened violence. The country was divided because Churchill threatened Collins, and Griffiths with war if they did not sign. Yes they do have the right, just as much as the early colonists had the right to take up arms., just as much as any other oppressed people and believe me, the nationalists in the north were oppressed, the government was against them, the police and the b-specials were against them, the whole system that allowed them to be discrimated against in jobs and housing by it's inaction was against them. I imagine you live in the north, can you really say that they were not discriminated against , by Brookeborough who openly declared that he would not have one about his place, by the orange unions in the shipyards, aircraft fcatory, ropeworks, ?. I know that a few catholics were employed in these places but they were very few, believe me. Even the Ormeua Bakery had a sign at their entrance that NO Catholics Need Apply. In Derry city with a massive majotiry of catholics but with an orange city council. You are damn right they have the right. Waiting for the day that the orange order and their cronies in previous governments would have changed things for the betterment of catholics is like waiting for hell to freeze over.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM

Your having a laugh Jimmy C, when we hear that old rhetoric day in day out on the news, why do you feel the need to actually post it?

Incase you have not noticed I do not mind if we become a united Ireland, providing it is democratically and legally obtained. And when we have a united Ireland SF/IRA will be no longer.

But one word of warning, SF/IRA has said it will not stop at a united Ireland they want to govern it. Will they be prepared to use their private army to achieve this,most likely as they done it in the past.

You do know what Sinn Fein means, that usually denotes the aim of the political party. In your defense of SF/IRA, are you saying they were right in carrying out their terrorist campaign?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

Ireland, I agree that for the IRA to disarm would be great, but they are not the only private army in Ireland. The U.V.F. / U.D.A./ U.F.F/ and the P.S.N.I. are just as armed. Sinn Fein are the political wing of the I.R.A. The D.U.P. and all other unionists parties are the political wing of these organizations as well they just don't have the guts to come out and admit it.

The only reason the GFA got off the ground was because the unionist parties could not prevent it. The shrinking loyalist population and the growing nationalist population was the real reason - not by any goodwill on behalf of unionists. They could not stop this nationalist train, all they can do is throw things on the track, they may delay the inevitable for a spell, but the train will reach it's final destination someday, and all the Trimbles, Paisleys, Donaldsons in the world wont prevent it, so they better get on board while there is still time, if they insist on standing on the tracks they will get run over.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

The notion of an independent N.I. was put forward on the same lines as the channel Islands, with the tax advantages that they enjoy. This would make N.I. a wealthy place.

Many people were touted for the new leader of such a N.I. the rev.Ian was among them so I think the ties with mother England would be cut so fast it would make your head spin. Until money was needed that is.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:09 PM

Well said Jimmy, SF are here to stay and they have the IRA and other spin off terrorists to keep them here.

I do not fault any unionist politician for not wanting to be deputy to a Mayor who belongs to a political party with a private army. To make matters worse if such posts were filled it would send the message that it does not matter.

Your going on about anti GFA unionists, if they were that anti the GFA would not have gotten off the ground.

As you seem to be pro SF follow Adams example and look to the future, the spectre of the past can be used by both sides as the bogey man under the bed. What I have noticed though you do want it both ways you cannot ride two horses at once, look forward while bringing up the past.

Jimmy do you object to the Irish prime minister who wants nothing to do with SF with its private army? Why should we, we have to because of the threat of that private army. Is that the basis for a lasting peace, clearly not look at the trouble we are in now.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Jimmy C
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:12 PM

Ireland - In your last post you said that "So if the GFA is as important to SF as they say it is they have to start working with Trimble and other pro GFA unionist." I suppose that is why The S.F. mayor Alex Maskey is inundated with offers from unionists to serve as Deputy Minister ?. S.F. as pointed out by otrhers is the only party that has been bending over bacjkwards to make the GFA work. They have been stymied time and again by allegationss and dirty politics from all unionist parties (including Trimble). You are right when you say they(S.F) have a lot to offer, but don't you think as democratically elected representatives ( they are the largest nationalist party by the way). they should have had more acceptance from all parties. The bottom line is that many Unionists politicians do not want the GFA to work, period. They somehow feel that if they can bring down the power sharing executive things will magically resort to what they have had since the so-called protestant state for a protestant people was set up. That is not going to happen - period. The I.R.A. has adhered to cessation in the face of amost daily occurances aimed at making them break. Do you really think the I.R.A. will give up the weapons and disband and leave the way clear for gangs of armed loyalist bigots to come into catholic districts to engage in murder and mayhem. knowing that they will for the most part get away with it as they have done in the past, the same way that Police Sergeant Dixon and his cohorts in the Cromwell clubs did in the 1920's and 30's. Sinn Fein are here to stay - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 11:51 AM

As a Cultural Catholic/Cultural Nationalist native of Ulster but not of NI (ie -Donegal), and having a modicom of knowledge of Irish history,I could hardly forget about the other three counties. Apart from me not being an irredentist, "Ulster" scanned better than "Northern Ireland".

Well the Assembly looks set for the chop next Tueesday.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 10:53 AM

When I open my dictionary, I read that 'Ulster' has three meanings, a Kingdom of bygone days, a province of nine counties, and another name for a part of Britain consisting of six counties.

That a word has more than one meaning is so common that we learn from very young to understand which meaning was meant from the context.

To 'correct' one meaning by another in a completely clear context does not help a discussion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Fiolar
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

McGrath: Do you honestly think for one moment that the Unionists want a "really" independent state of Nothern Ireland (or whatever they might want to call it.) If independent of Mother England think of all that lovely money no longer flowing into the pockets of the residents. No! in my humble opinion, they want the "good old days" of Brookeborough when the "croppies" knew their place and there was no such thing as power-sharing or other new fangled ideas. On the other hand perhaps if was thrown out of the UK, they might finally face up to the realities of the 21st century.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 10:26 AM

Ulster as such doesn't get a mention in the Treaty that I ever heard of. Northern Ireland does, but that's not exactly the same thing.

I remember one time Bernadette McAliskey (Devlin as was) wrote an article suggesting that an independent united Ulster wouldn't be a bad idea, and that makes a bit of sense. You'd think that would be what anyone calling themselves "Ulster Unionista" might want as well.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM

McGrath - "Well, you leave out three of Ulster's counties, Tim, but it's a good song anyway." Well, Tim leaves 'em out because so did the Treaty. Had Lloyd George carved the Partition so as to take the whole Province, there'd be a united Ireland by now.
(I.M. always-H.O. :) But that was the point, wasn't it? "It's all just a question of slicing the salami." - a New York redistricting expert.

Sincerely,
U.S. Senator Elbridge Gerry, Rhode Island (patron saint of the Gerrymander)

PS - It's a great song, Big Tim. Both of 'em. -Pook

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 09:04 AM

Your at it again Mc G of H, your right on the irresponsibility point, we need SF to stand against the likes of Paisley. Remember when he got heaps of people to go to some hill and wave their shot gun licences at each other, we need saved from him. I thought it was funny!

BTW CB I could not defend the Rev if my life depended on it,he has been the main wooden spoon in N.I. politics for his own benefit.

Trimble has put himself on the line he can only go so far and take so much and it looks as though the SF intelligence gathering has done his position no favours. So if the GFA is as important to SF as they say it is they have to start working with Trimble and other pro GFA unionist. As I have said they have a lot to offer but unfortunately not at the price of security and peace of mind.

Teribus has a valid point we lump loyalist terrorists as one unit, and leave people to pick and choose between republican/nationalist terrorists. No one will ever convince me that there are no common links between the Real IRA and the IRA and all the other spin offs. So when people moan about not mentioning loyalist terrorists they do the same themselves by letting IRA spin offs of the hook.

He also makes the point which many conveniently over look no one in the republic of Ireland want SF with their present ties to the IRA, are they seen as anti GFA, or people who see it as it is.

Some forget an overwhelming number of people or so called unionists voted for the GFA, so for them to want it disbanded is not a lightly taken decision. They have been let down by SF considering they voted to let them into government and noe the anti GFA people can sit back and say I told you so.

Who is responsible for this certainly not the unionists who voted for the GFA nor the anti GFA unionists who if we believe was behind the raid, done nothing more than prove their mistrust in SF was right. And people try to hold them up as the group in the wrong, see it as it is SF caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 09:01 AM

OULD IRELAND'S LAMENT, words by Big Tim, written this morning, tune "Men of the West", etc


It's the year three thousand and forty, the Ould Belgian Empire is gone,
But the Troubles in Ould Northern Ireland are of course still rumbling on,
A bomb goes off in the Bogside, a Catholic's found dead in a field,
And Ould Ireland still shouts from the sidelines "our brave boys they never will yield"

"Forget not the Boys of Kilmichael, forget not Prosisional Dail,
Forget not the Battle of Antrim, nor the Border that runs through the Foyle,
Forget not the Walls of Ould derry, forget not the Dolly's Brae fight,
To Ould Ireland just you pay attention, you know it's the cause of The Right"

Ould Ireland shouts "lop of the 'London', give us back 'Doire' instead,
Forget about peace and employment, we much prefer living in dread,
In a wasteland that's governed by gangsters, like Bould Ould Johnny Adair,
Ould Ireland says, "long may they flourish, we prefer them to your Tony Blair"

It's now four thousand and forty, a new Belfast Agreement's in place,
But Ould Ireland is still loudly screaming "it's all just a bloody disgrace-
We Catholics demand compensation, our fair share of Ould British Coin,
For Famine and Ulster Plantation, for Aughrim and Ould Bloody Boyne"

It's now five thousand and forty, Ould Ireland wants new RUC,
And hoary Ould Isaac McKittrick, is still in his tent at Drumcree,
"We've been at it now many long centuries, since before Ould Cromwell was born,
And we'll keep knocking lumps off each other, til Ould Gabriel blows his Ould Horn".

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 06:02 AM

"17 February 2002: Irish premier Bertie Ahern rules out a coalition with Sinn Fein should the party do well at the coming Irish general election. "In our constitution there can only be adherence to one police force, one army. Until Sinn Fein make their position unambiguously clear, then that is not possible, and that is not going to be possible for some time."

What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the Gander.

I would have thought that it was the responsibility of elected representatives, in any political arena, to represent the views and aspirations of their constituents - not bat the interests of the paramilitary armies standing at their backs in the shadows.

The people of Northern Ireland through their elected representatives have been given a framework in which to work. The problems and lack of trust on both sides were known factors from the outset. They've had four years of stumbling about from one suspension to the next. High time they got down to the task in hand and started solving problems instead of creating them, this process will require compromise by both sides - to date the willingness to compromise seems to have come mainly from one side.

"The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha."

That is Kevin at his selective best. I note that in the posts above when reference is made to the activity of Loyalist groups - they are all lumped together. Going back to our goose and gander saying, if you apply the same to Nationalist groups, the picture isn't so rosey.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:15 AM

Well it seems to me that the IRA could disband and Sinn Fein could all resign and their offices hold a rummage sale and all the Catholics in the "wee six" could move South and Paisley STILL wouldn't want to share power! With anyone! Well maybe with Johnny Adair, but only on every other Monday.

No matter what the Nationalist "side" does it will not satisfy the Loyalist fanatics. I look at that octogenarian visage, spewing hatred and venom and wonder how could God allow him to lead the worshipful in prayer and it then strikes me what a truly forgiving God He is.

"Gerry Adams colors his hair!!! Lets scrap the GFA!!!

Yikes!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Den
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 10:27 PM

So we're all still under the illusion that Unionists want power sharing to work. Does this taxi go all the way down the garden path?Just let me out here, all the best, your mad, your mad, your face is red the eyes are standin' in yer head, go home yer ma's got oranges for ye.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 08:26 PM

I keep on finding myself reading GFA as the initials of some breakaway from the GAA calling itself the Gaelic Football Association. I always do that kind of thing with acronyms.

But back in the grim real world again. The actual facts in this are still unclear, and there's going to be investigations and court hearings about it. That provides an opportunity to cool things and get back to business. Using all this as an occasion for political manoeuvring and posturing seems to me grossly irresponsible.

Irresponsibility is what it's all about really - the failure of a number of people on both sides to accept and live up to their responsibility to recognise that the Good Friday Agreement has to be made to work, and to do what is needed to make it work.

"The best is enemy of the good"; "Striving to better oft we mar what's well"; "If you keep on picking it, it'll never get better".

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 06:46 PM

"The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha.

Ever heard off "I'll not do it any more but I'll not do it any less" that's what is going on here. The IRA are terrorists and to condone them have information that endangers peoples lives or as a source of terrorising people is reprehensible. To do so under the guise of they do so can we is moronic.

The message that SF/IRA should get from all right thinking people is simple, terrorists of any creed colour or nationality have no place in the civilised world.

John Hume and Trimble did not get into government by use of the armalite and ballot box, they did not command terrorist units that has blasted people of the face of the earth. SF has let us down badly. I agree with Mc G of H (your doing it to me again Mc G)the GFA should be kept going, but not at the expense of putting peoples lives at risk. People who have kept the terrorists from both sides completely tearing N.I. apart.

What support do they get none, we have personal details in the hands of murdering terrorists and that fact has been totally glossed over, and we are trying to make some sort of lasting peace in this country with this and other bs going on from both sides. Do people stop to think it is this excuse making from both sides that keeps the pot simmering, we really need to wise up and condemn all terrorists for what they are parasites on peace loving people who should go away and let us get on with life.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 05:28 PM

Well, you leave out three of Ulster's counties, Tim, but it's a good song anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

"The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM

Here's some verses I wrote that express my feelings on the Irish Question better than any amount of prose that I might muster.

COME ULSTER. Tune = Danny Boy

Some day to walk in peace though Ulster valleys,
That Red Hand land where once lived Danny Boy,
But Omagh Town and round by Ballynoney,
Are names of shame that once were pride and joy

Too many tears and years of blood and blunder,
For flag of green and streets red, white and blue,
Too long we've seen our people torn asunder,
Tear down these walls instead and start anew

Chorus
Come Ulster north, south, east and west together,
Through Antrim, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone,
Through Armagh too, then view the Walls of Derry,
Together side by side and no more walk alone

Leave ancient days, and ancient ways, forever,
Within the rage and page of history,
With heart and hand, come Ulster stand together,
Come Ulster, build a new society

And let us walk in peace through Ulster valleys,
That Red Hand land where once lived Danny Boy,
Let Omagh Town and round by Ballymoney,
Again resound in peace and pride and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM

I'm with Ireland on the point that it's no good using past atrocities as justification of counter atricities. That way they never end. (And the horrible example of what's happening in the Holy Land comes to mind - every cruel and vicious act on either side is presented as being a justified retaliation, and serves at a provocation for the next round.)

But I don't see information gathering, even espionage, as the same kind of thing as a breaking of the ceasefire. Nobody sees that kind of thing carried out by governments as being an act of war in itself. Nobody doubts that the British authoirities are busily gathering information which would be highly useful if the war started again - but, quite rightly, that is not seen as a breach of the ceasefire, or as an indication that the British Government is planning to restart the war.

All the evidence is that the security people knew about this a long time ago, and have chosen to bring it in to the open at this time for reasons best known to themselves.

The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland which is most effectively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM

Aye Jimmy good on you, and speaking about informationon, every Catholic/Nationalist in the wee six has been scrutinised and tucked away and any Soldier, Ruc/PISSNI will have all of this info to hand and of course passed it on from the beginning of the troubles to their relatives in the various Loyalists assination squads.
Collusion was very evident in the Pat Finucane murder and Fionn the Rosemary Nelson murder was a state murder, the RUC had told her that she was on the list.
And in answer to the Donegal Ranger, yes, it`s a well known fact that most of the Celtic support comes from the local Glasgow Prods, aye and Paisley is Chairman of the Celtic supporters club in Ballymena, do me a favour "Scotland is rife with sectarianism", not my words but a quote from a Mr McMillan who was the Leader of the Scottish Symphony Orchestra, and he is certainly not your militant claymore wielding jock. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Jimmy C
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM

Ireland - you refer to Sinn Fein having their own oprivate army ?, Do you really believe that the Unionists parties are not connected to the U.V.F, the U.D.A. etc. Surely your are not too blind to see that every act of terror committed by loyalists paramilitaries does not have the support of many unionist politicians, they don't come out and admit it but they support the loyalist squads, have no doubt about that.
All parties collect information , I guarantee the Loyalists squads are gathering it as well. All this scare mongering is an attempt to bring down the power sharing assembly for one reason and for one reason only - Unionists don't want it to succeed, because once the population see this arrangement working to the good of ALL the people, many middle of the road loyalists will start voting for candidates on their achievements and not because of their religion. Everything directed against SinnFein/I.R.A. are all allegations. If the authorities had any concrete evidence someone would be charged, they have failed to charge anyone which shows their evidence is very flimsy at best. They are on the run and will resort to any sort of underhanded dirty tricks to stave off the inevitable, aided no doubt by some inside british intelligence operators.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

The defence that some put across about the intelligence gathering, such as what governments do not collect intelligence, so basically why worry about SF attempts.

Can that same reasoning not be applied to the so called collusion between Army and loyalists, what country would not use such subterfuge to fight an enemy? But this is not a defence for such actions just as it is not for SF intelligence gathering. I will be the first to condemn such actions,when are the members of SF going to condemn the actions of their members when they are in the wrong,that's the difference I suppose.

The Chief Constable has acknowledged that the matter could have been handled better, SF has not said we should not have the names and addresses of prison officers and army personnel and gathering such information is not keeping within the spirit of the GFA. It is an arrogance that sits uneasy with many people in Ireland north and south.

I would like to see an united Ireland, one of the reasons being SF would be voted out of government, as there are no Irish prime ministers willing to have them, why because they have a private army, if that is a valid reason for Irish politicians why not for N.I. politicians? An united Ireland will see through all the crap and an end to the cry of discrimination by SF. In other words if it were not for the situation in N.I. SF would not last in a normal democratic government.

If you want Ard I could go into the terrorist attacks but what good would that do? None. We cannot keep harping on about past atrocities carried out by both sides how do we go forward if people keep bringing up the past.

To put such attacks on a he did it first basis is nothing more than childish. The real counter argument to the intelligence gathering is based on the activities of unionist politicians who leak N.I.O. documents. But that does not allay the fears of those whose details are in the hands of terrorists, or do we not consider them?

Rather than trying to justify the actions based on past events which were justified by those who carried out the attacks as a retaliation to a previous attack, such as the shooting of an innocent man by the loyalists as a "measured response" to republican activities at that time. So bringing up past atrocities is just what it is bringing up the past and that gets us nowhere fast.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 07:04 AM

Ard Mhacha, I couldn't argue with what you say about Rosemary Nelson and the near silence on the scale of loyalist violence since the GF agreement cameinto effect. But sweepinig generalisations such as your comments about Scotland and Rangers fans, and the impression you give that it's always the other side that's at fault is precidsely the mindset that is thwarting reconciliation.

One of IReland's comments about who knows what reminded me that in East Germany the Stasi aprently all became taxi drivers when the wall came down. You just give them your name, and they know where you live.

Teribus: LOL re Gerry Mallone.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 06:00 AM

Here's the link to that article in today's Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 05:58 AM

Another article,"The securocrats' revenge", this time from today's Guardian, by a former editor of the Daily Mirror who writes regularlynon media spin and that. It takes a very sceptical view indeed of the whole affair:

"This case...also supports those who believe that the security forces, rather than the government, direct what happens. The government is more or less bound by their advice and, most importantly, by their control of operational matters in which they can manufacture "events" to suit their political aim...

"...It is frightening to realise that the only people smiling now are the dissident IRA members who refused to follow Sinn Fein down the political road."

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 03:34 PM

Ard, you ould bugger, you have a cheek to talk about not being neutral!

What it's worth in the context of this discussion, if anything, did you know that the murdered 16 -year-old Celtic supporter that you mentioned was a Protestant? How sadly ironic can this craziness get?

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM

CB - Bedam'. Busted. / Nonono just kidding. Actually I'm with the Peep-of-Day Boys. :) Of course Over Here I was a Symbionese Liberation Army man; but then Patty Hearst spurned my advances. Ah weel. / Hey, *I'd* vote fer McGrath. Any party, or none. "I can run on a laundry ticket and beat these political bums." - NYC Mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, 1930's

McGrath & Big Tim, thanks. Yes, let us decommission the rhetorical bombshells.

To Ireland; and, to Ireland:

Tolling for the warriors whose strength is not to fight,
For the broken-hearted refugees on the unarmed road of flight,
And for each and every underdog soldier in the night,
We gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.
- Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM

That last reply was mine, Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:45 PM

Could be wrong, but I have yet to see the Donegal Celtic man EVER being neutral, all of his replies seem to be a constant carp about anything Nationalist and surely anyone with an iota of sense couldn`t stand at a Celtic v Rangers game and listen to the torrent of secterian abuse from the fanatics.                                  And Teribus were you in Dublin, Monaghan, McGurks Bar,Derry etc, all Security Forces involvement, the dirty-tricks brigade in the British Army weren`t behind the door when it came to carnage.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 11:53 AM

Hmmm, very interesting developments since I last posted. Ireland is an ex soldier? Big Tim was told he could be shot if he wasn't careful? Hmmmmm. Next I'll find out that Pooka belongs to the INLA and McGrath of Harlow is a Labour MP.

Hey! this is a great thread!

and a "tiochfaidh ar la" to ard mhacha!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:39 AM

My best friend was indeed a Rangers supporter. Also a more tolerant, non-bigoted person you couldn't wish to meet. He just happened to have been born into a Protestant family in a working class area of Glasgow. I respected his tradition and he respected mine.

If more people in NI could do that, begin to put the past behind them, not forget it - that's impossible, but to look to the future, for the sake of coming generations, then there would be some hope. Constantly blaming and demonising the other side only prolongs the agony. It will prevent NI society from ever getting out of the mess that it is in. That's supposed to be an important part of the GFA: mutual tolerance and respect for cultural diverstity.                                                      

The ideal would be for the Prods to start going to GAA games and for Catholics to applaud Orange walks. In the meantime some smaller steps can be taken: like taking religion out of the schools, no prayers, no nothing, strictly secular, with all kids in together to let them see that "them over there" are just human beings like themselves not the demons of the other side's propaganda. If parents want their kids to be religious, teach them themselves, it should be a private matter, leave the State out of it. Unfortunately the hardliners on both sides, blue and green, don't want to even begin to know about coming together and cultural diversity - for them it's all or nothing, no surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 07:13 AM

Mc G of H you've done it now, how could ye, I have to agree, I know I disagree with you and to show my perspective on N.I. is not from the usual loyalist bashing the catholics crap I have no qualms in saying I was a soldier, but that seems to be a problem to some.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 06:16 AM

A ceasefire here might be a good idea. I don't mean avoiding talking about divisive issues, but maybe the idea should be to get a better understanding of why it is other people might see things differently, and vice versa, not getting into verbal fist-fights.

There's a piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland that I think deserves reading. It tries to tease out the issues involved, and here's a taster:

"Leaders on all sides are predicting the imminent suspension of the self-government they established in 1998 - with perhaps no way back. Their accounts of how they got here differ entirely; and it is into the gap between them that all the valuable, even heroic work of the last four years could fall. The tragedy of it is that gap is not nearly as wide as it looks."

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 05:54 AM

From "Advice To Tourists in Scotland"

Visitors to Glasgow:

Glasgow Celtic Football Club is one of Scotland's better known sides with a long and enviable history. They are distinguished by their famous green and white hooped strip. They are known as "The 'Gers", after founder member Gerry Mallone, the first man to introduce citrus fruit to Scotland. On entering a public house where the famous colours are in a predominance, the visitor is advised to declare loudly and clearly, "Up the 'Gers, I'm proud to be an Orangeman" You are guaranteed of receiving an extremely warm reception.


Oh! and Ard Mhacha, the statistics of the last thirty years puts the responsibility for the vast majority of the three thousand odd deaths and thousands of injuries firmly at the door of the Nationalist paramilitaries. The recent apology from the PIRA regarding the Black Friday bombings covered the day when 24 bombs were placed indiscriminately in Belfast's crowded shopping areas, while you are asking fellow Mudcatter Ireland for enlightenment, maybe he can tell you, as a soldier, how the butchers bill for that day was limited to five civilians and two security forces personnel - hint - it had nothing whatsoever to do with any desire or intention on the part of the PIRA to limit "innocent" civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 05:28 AM

So Ireland is a soldier, he could then enlighten us all on the collusion between the Ruc and the British Army with his allies in the Loyalists murder gangs.
It is a fact, that from the beginning of the troubles, the so-called Security Forces have been handing out information on Nationalists, resulting in the death of numerous innocents, so you cannot blame Sinn Fein for covering their back.
And Tim me boy, you can also have your throat cut in Glasgow if you have the misfortune to be wearing a Celtic scarf, one of your Rangers friends is doing time for this deed, not forgetting the two Scots who received a long prison sentence last week for supplying their Loyalists friends in the sick six with Arms, Semtex etc.
For the benefit of our US friends let me remind them that Scotland is known here as the hidey-hole for murdering Loyalists thugs, on the run at the moment in the land of the thistle is a suspect in the Martin O`Hagan murder being shielded by his Scottish friends.
And from to-days Irish News we read that the moderate SDLP politican Alban Maginness has said that Unionists politicians of "ignoring Loyalist violence, stating that "their blindness on this issuse is reprehensible".
And Hugh Orde gave us all a laugh by apologising, God help us, wonders will never cease. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: The Pooka
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 01:40 AM

Well, for what (if anything) it's worth --- and not to further rile you up, member Ireland; of course it's rhetoric & propoganda; -- here is what SF says on their website. (McGrath, they don't sound very conciliated by the Chief Constable's 'stylistic' second-thoughts.)

7th October 2002

Commenting on PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde's defence of the bogus raid by the PSNI on the Assembly, North Belfast Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly said:

``This was a bogus raid. Its aim was to veil a direct political intervention by the PSNI. It proved to be a thin and wholly transparent veil.

``It was a political theatre. Two disks were scooped at random, from dozens of disks to provide pretence of a raid, to provide a spurious justification.

``It has rebounded.

``Hugh Orde's weasel words about the manner in which this was done cut no ice. The PSNI, like the RUC, is operating to a unionist agenda.

``Huge Orde, like his predecessors will defend the PSNI - right or wrong. That is the inevitable corruption of the head of a police force, which continues to have a political agenda. This is one reason why the PSNI remains unacceptable.''



7th October 2002
Sinn Féin TD for Dublin South Central Aengus Ó Snodaigh has described the PSNI raid on the party's Stormont offices as `outrageous' and `part of a broader anti-peace process, anti-Agreement agenda.' Deputy Ó Snodaigh was speaking at a protest organised in support of the Good Friday Agreement , which took place at the GPO in Dublin this evening.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh said:

``Today's protest has been organised to demonstrate our anger and concern at the politically motivated raid on Sinn Féin's offices at Stormont and the arrests in Belfast. It will not be lost in Belfast and beyond that these raids and arrests fit neatly into the anti-Agreement agenda laid out by David Trimble and the UUP two weeks ago.

``We are here today to say that the Good Friday Agreement is an all-Ireland Agreement. The peace process is an all Ireland concern   And Sinn Féin for our part will not be diverted from the task at hand, that is the full implementation of the Agreement.

``We are calling on all those who support the Good Friday Agreement, particularly the Irish government, to ensure that the UUPs wreckers charter and British dirty tricks do not succeed in undermining the Good Friday Agreement.''

Sinn Féin Press Office, 44 Parnell Square, Dublin 1
Tel: [phone] and [phone]   ·   Fax [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]   ·   Website: http://sinnfein.ie

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 06:58 PM

I imagine the Chief Constable would have his own ideas as to how it should have been done, if he thinks the way it was done was a mistake.

I'd not be the least surprised to turn on the telly and see that the IRA had issued a statement saying that no prison officers will be targetted and so forth. After all, that's part of the ceasefire they are pledged to uphold. But what would astonish me would be if it really reassured anyone too much. Even if it was absolutely genuine, it'd be an empty gesture - which isn't to say it wouldn't be a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Ireland
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 05:47 PM

What are the police to do,they know the antics of SF, if two officers went in would they have been able to carry out the search without any hindrance.

No matter what the point is a serious issue has been raised,in such a way that it cannot be swept under the carpet by spin doctors. If such actions lead to the end of the GFA it is not the fault of those who try to keep the law.

Has SF/IRA offered any assurances to the prison officers that they will not be targeted? It is very serious threat to have your details on a terrorists list, SF should be doing every thing in it's power to reassure the families of these officers, they are going through a terror process now, instigated by SF/IRA .That's one of the real consequences of the intelligence gathering by terrorists and the issue is being skirted around.

I agree with Big Tim, and think that is the only context that this should be looked at.

One point though the problem of the policing issue lies squarely on the shoulders of those who advised Catholic's not to join the police, people like Hume, priest's, SF and of course the threat of death by the IRA. Otherwise we would have had the 50/50 force everyone wants.

Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 04:34 PM

The fact that he could have had anyone shot was the scary thing: not my personal situation, I never was under threat, we were more worried about Rangers winning the league every year, but the idea that someone willing to pick up a gun could impose himself, and his cause, on the community was a reality check for me. No way to organise a society.