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BS: political threads

GUEST,Ireland 05 Oct 02 - 08:47 AM
catspaw49 05 Oct 02 - 09:12 AM
Gareth 05 Oct 02 - 09:23 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 05 Oct 02 - 09:24 AM
wysiwyg 05 Oct 02 - 09:40 AM
The Pooka 05 Oct 02 - 09:43 AM
The Pooka 05 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM
Doug Chadwick 05 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 05 Oct 02 - 09:57 AM
wysiwyg 05 Oct 02 - 10:05 AM
wysiwyg 05 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM
The Pooka 05 Oct 02 - 10:47 AM
Big Mick 05 Oct 02 - 10:50 AM
Amos 05 Oct 02 - 10:58 AM
Bobert 05 Oct 02 - 11:11 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 05 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM
katlaughing 05 Oct 02 - 11:25 AM
Rick Fielding 05 Oct 02 - 11:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 02 - 11:54 AM
Rick Fielding 05 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM
Don Firth 05 Oct 02 - 12:19 PM
catspaw49 05 Oct 02 - 12:36 PM
Rick Fielding 05 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Ireland 05 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM
GUEST 05 Oct 02 - 10:24 PM
Amos 05 Oct 02 - 10:26 PM
khandu 05 Oct 02 - 10:34 PM
Amos 05 Oct 02 - 10:58 PM
GUEST 06 Oct 02 - 04:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 02 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 06 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM
khandu 06 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM
kendall 07 Oct 02 - 08:05 AM
wilco 07 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM
C-flat 07 Oct 02 - 10:42 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Oct 02 - 11:11 AM
pattyClink 07 Oct 02 - 02:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM
artbrooks 07 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM
DougR 07 Oct 02 - 05:53 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 02 - 08:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 02 - 08:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 02 - 09:00 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 02 - 09:00 PM
kendall 07 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 07 Oct 02 - 09:43 PM
Deda 07 Oct 02 - 10:06 PM

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Subject: Political threads
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 08:47 AM

I know I am to blame for this as much as the next guy, what I want to know are such threads really wanted on this forum. Do they inform people or are they a down right nuisance. I know I have learnt a lot from postings on political issues.


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:12 AM

All of the above.

Political discussion has been a part of the place for the past four years at least and there are times when I think it goes way past the limit of reasonable, but at other times is about right. Many here, myself included, enjoy these discussions. I just personally think we go overboard at times to the point where it seems every other thread is polishit and many of them on the same subject. Every policy change doesn't need a new thread when we're talking about the Bush administration or whatever. I wish we'd all think more before starting ANY thread ANY time. If I never see another Punch the fuckin' Horse thread started it will be too soon!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:23 AM

In moderation, in moderation.
Gareth


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:24 AM

This forum is about folk music and folk musicians. Unlike some other musical genres, folk music does not and cannot exist in a vacuum. Many folk musicians have a higher than average social consciousness and sense of political justice. This heightened socio/politico sensibility is the ground from which many of our great folksongs have grown.

Who knows? A political or social discussion on the Mudcat just might be the inspiration for the next generation's "This Land is Your Land" or "Blowin' in the Wind". I only occasionally post to political threads and often just ignore them, but they do serve a valid purpose within the community and they deserve to be here.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:40 AM

It's been helpful to me to use the forum's BS filters to separate out the political stuff. After I have cruised the music threads of interest and done some work to participate in them usefully, if I have some time left over, I sometimes look at the BS threads. I am often shocked to see the depth of vitriol that has accumulated since I last looked, in the the number of threads that have sprung up, all while I was blissfully unaware and focused on some wonderful piece of music.

By the time I see these threads, I hope I have a little more detachment than I used to have around here, and a better sense of how the same people tend to be in those threads saying the same thing-- how little urgency there is about plopping into them "right this very NOW" to let people have a turn pushing my hot buttons.

I am also disturbed, in these threads, by the amount of hard feeling that seems to persist, over what I think are different ways of looking at things, culturally. For example, it's a high value for some in the US to speak in terms of what we know, by using "I" messages. (Like this post of mine.) But in some places, it's seen as self-aggrandizement, not as the careful limiting of one's remarks to what one has experienced personally. (See, I am learning to use the "one" approach.) So the same old questions tend to go around and around, and it can be easy to lose the exit.

Also, the medium lends itself very well to dumping off a truckload of what one already thinks about a matter, and less well to absorbing what others think, and rethinking a bit. We feel we express ourselves well (and need to) while misunderstanding what someone else has said becuse we can't see them or hear them and because they are not saying it right now but said it several hours ago.... and then we forget that someone else is going to misunderstand us exactly the same way. We find it easy to post while feeling upset at another Mudcatter, even tho that particular Catter has moved past the upset we see in their last post and has cheerfully gone off to sleep or play or have supper! So it all can get pretty HOT, when in fact the heads are trying to cool! And in another medium-- at a party for example-- if these things occurred, pretty soon people would just get up and walk away from the cranky, rude soapboxer, concluding he just likes being cranky and is no damn fun to be around.

But people seem to feel it fills a need. So I just try to keep my priorities straight.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:43 AM

They are also the refuge of the musically semi-literate Fan ("audience"), like Meeee, who is awed & instructed, but sometimes still intimidated, by the scholarly erudition on the pure-music threads. Don't make us go BS Cold Turkey, OK? (Hmmph? Yeah yeah, gobble gobble, so's yer old man...:)


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM

Susan: much wisdom. Hm. /
---the Cold Turkey


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM

Speaking personally,

......are such threads really wanted on this forum.     No!
......are they a down right nuisance.                            Absolutely!

But then again, one man's meat is another man's poison.

Doug C


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:57 AM

Susan - What Pooka said.

Pooka - Somethin' wrong, man? Your posts have been strangely intelligible of late.


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:05 AM

Well, fellas, I can always use a hand in some of the music projects I get involved in. (I wish we had a VOL prefix where people doing projects could recruit volunteers for these!) Right now it's Oldtime music and Charlie Poole. If you want to help on those, filter-search the threads for these and see what I'm tawkinnabout.

Pook, someday you too can move beyond semi-literate Fan ("audience"), like I did. Now, I am informed, I am all the way up to Gadfly.

~Turkey Farmer


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:40 AM

... and isn't it kinda funny, you never see "Iraq Debate NOW at PalTalk" or "What's On At MudChat: Irish Question Debate at 11PM, Guns at 12AM, Abortion at 1AM." Never see "Mudcat Tavern" in those spots either. Hm....

There are political discussions at PalTalk, but around here it's used for music. Go figure!

*G*

~Susan


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: The Pooka
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:47 AM

Bee-dubya-ell - **LOL** - you bedubyaed bastard, you - heeheehee - yer right, I just haven't been feeling meself lately (now if THAT one doesn't drag [you should pardon the expression] Catspaw back in here, what will?) - it's because I've been gwine Cold Turkey on th' oul' Joyces and na gCopaleens - well one little sip canna' hurt annything willit? to wi(lli)t:

SusanWyg: har har har / well as you continue to Ascend the Ladder of Informedalityabilitieses, I shall proceed to Dyggywyg down to the very Depths of Musicockles & Musclebound Erudition, Third Edition. Then someday I can be the Gadfly of the Profit on yer Subway Wall.

Sinseriously,
~ Donkey Rider
cc: Balaam & Bottom


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:50 AM

Of course these threads are needed. To suggest anything else is to demonstrate a lack of understanding as to what folk and blues music is all about. A great deal of the subject matter of the music is either about the injustices and inequities of the times, or inspired by it. Topical discussions about the differing points of view, IMO, helps one to understand these points of view, and perhaps sing with greater conviction. I find that some folks get caught in the trap of "folk music as history". When they do that, they trap the music and it ceases to be a living entity that evolves and helps to shape the present and the future. Historical perspectives are only a part of the genre, but their relevancy to what is happening now, as well as their use as a roadmap to the future is another big part.

I have said many times that Mudcat is not a music site. It is a community of musicians that has music, as well as the conditions that spawn it, as its focus.

And finally...........if you don't like the politics, just don't read them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:58 AM

Bigghus Mickus has the rights of it.

Folk music is largely a political event.

A


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 11:11 AM

Well said, Mick, and you're very much right that music isn't *in the past* but very much *now*. I too play blues and blues and politics go hand in hand, especially when looked at in terms of class struggle. The current administartion has done more for the blues than any in my memory.

Yeah, nuthin' better than Bush, Ashcroft and Cheney to give today's blues players just an element of terror that the pre-war bluesmen must have felt living in the South under Jim Crow and the KKK.

But that's about the only silver lining I've found in the dark clouds of the Bush regime...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM

Seperating Politics from folk/trad music is like taking sex out of the human condition...
Sure, hot heads and hurt feelings happen, but when its good... need I say more?
ttr


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 11:25 AM

As usual all I can say is "What Spaw said." Damn, he's looking more and more like the good twin!


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 11:46 AM

Hi Ireland. I LOVE the political discussions. I think they are what have kept me such a repeat customer at Mudcat.
Folk music is a passion of mine, but I've gradually found fewer and fewer people interested (and knowledgeable) in the specific areas that fascinate me.......but interesting PEOPLE? This is the place.

Granted, many of the discussions (Geo. Bush's actions, Israeli/Palestinian debates, Irish questions, etc.) often become the same folk espousing the same opinions over and over again.....but even in those threads, the writing can at times be great.

Being here for some time has allowed me to become good friends with some folks, so there are times when I don't actively participate in a controversial thread simply 'cause it ain't worth offending a friend who's strongly defending a position that I think is wrong. I go easy on the jokes at times as well........But.....that doesn't mean I don't read the threads carefully. It's great fun, and sadly, although I know a huge number of people in real life (it goes with my job) very few of them READ the news to the extent that I do. Two papers a day (the 'left' and 'right') perspective, for as long as I can remember now.

The uniqueness of Mudcat still blows me away at times!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 11:54 AM

Discussions about politics on the Net are better not conducted in real time, in Chat Rooms or whatever. Doing it that way just increases the tendency to misunderstand what someone has said, and say things in a way we wouldn't if we thought about it. In face to face discussions that kind of thing happens, but there are other factors that can keep things on the level, which aren't present on the Net.

Big Mick says it well: Mudcat is not a music site. It is a community of musicians that has music, as well as the conditions that spawn it, as its focus.

Arguing differences with someone you've been sharing a song with, or discussing stuff about tuning, keeps the argument saner and more on a level keel than with just random strangers where the arguments are the only point of contact. That's one reason I find the anonymous GUEST phenomena so irritating, because it undermines all that.

There are places where they have signs up "No politics, religion here" - when you see that you know it's not a healthy kind of place, with some nasty tensions under the surface. Real friends know each others differences, and don't avoid them either. They just don't let them get in the way of friendship.

And aside from everything else, you can learn a lot more about some things than you ever would through the mass media.


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

McGrath, my Dad told me "A gentleman NEVER discusses politics or religion"!

Gee.....he also told me:
"Finish school or you'll never get a good job".
"Always keep your shoes shined".
"Well, you'll never make a LIVING with a guitar".
"If you want to be successful you have to play a good game of golf".

Lordy, Lordy, where did I go wrong??!!

Cheers

Rick



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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:19 PM

I've been to about eleventy-umpteen-thousand "hoots" since I first picked up a guitar and tried to figure out how to play Greensleeves (by "hoots" I mean songfests in someone's home, not necessarily the multi-performer concerts that have since come to be called "hootenannies"). Anyway, at most of these hoots, the main activity was one helluva lot of singing going on in the living room. Once in a while a singer or other attendee would wander out into the kitchen to raid the host's fridge for another beer or to do battle with the house cat for a crack at the clam dip. There in the kitchen one could usually find half a dozen people carrying on some non-musical discussion: telling jokes, bragging about gas mileage, politics. . . . There one can either join in if the topic interests you, or pop the cap off the beer bottle and head back to the living room. Your choice. I spend most of my time in the living room, but I do drop into the kitchen now and then.

I regard Mudcat as a sort of "cyber-hoot."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:36 PM

Since most of us agree that it DOES have a place here and that all threads are fine in moderation (I think we can agree on that huh?) then I must asked if I'm the only one who has noticed that none of our obnoxious guests who insist this is for only music have mentioned that Max has dropped the "Dedicated to Folk and Blue Music" line from the header. Obviously folk is a political music in many ways and I for one will be glad that we no longer have to listen to that crap. Much obliged Maxie boy!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM

Actually Spaw, there were only about three of 'em. (got it from a well-placed source) The anonymity made 'em seem like two dozen.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: GUEST,Ireland
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

That's one reason I find the anonymous GUEST phenomena so irritating, because it undermines all that

Mc g of H, are you getting at me? way on with ye!

I have not registered because I feel I have nothing to contribute musically.


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM

No it's not in anyway aimed at you Ireland. You use a pseudonym, like lots of other people here. That's not what I mean by "anonymous". Using a pseudonym means that if you turn up a second time in a thread, anyone who is discussing something with you knows it's still you, rather than some random stranger. And when you turn up in a different thread about something totally different, it's still identified as the same person.

What I'm referring to is where people just sign in as GUEST, which doesn't allow either of these things. It's a cross between graffiti and heckling.

The drawback with not registering is that anyone can write a message as GUEST, Ireland, so you might find yourself assumed to have said something that you never said (it's happened, and it can be very unpleasant); and you can't send or receive PMs, which is quite a useful thing to be able to do.

And I'm quite sure that you'll find yourself able to contribute musically - you'll have some information about the background of a song, for example. Go on and register. (I'm sure we'll find things we agree about before too long.)


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM

Interesting discussion! I prefer to stay well clear of the political threads, [I don't even read them anymore), as in my opinion, they tend to have the same people, going on about the same stuff.john


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:24 PM

Fair point, John

Politics is, like it or not, fairly important. Agreed, there are lots of people who are completely 'stuck'. The same could be said concerning views on religion/spiritual beliefs.

The utter nonsense that some people belive doesn't make the discussions invalid, it helps us understand.

For the record, everything I say and think is right and anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot! *big grin*


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:26 PM

John:

Well, yes; but the "stuff" is the world itself, eh? Yhat kinda makes it worth discussing, I'd think.

Ireland:

Join up as yourself, using your Ireland handle, and never mind the delicacy about whether you add musically or not. You have already added value to the community. It adds no cost or burden on you and gives you some advantages as well.

A


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: khandu
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:34 PM

"We live in a political world"...Bob Dylan

This is a discussion forum. Hell, we have discussed erections, breasts, Jubilee the Barrister, religions, bastard nameless guests, and Spaw's awful gas problem (as well as his "teeny peenie"). Hell, we may as well discuss politics.

It is a political world.

khandu


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:58 PM

Sounds like the makings of a song, khandu -- sompn about what a strange world it is...ya got any ideas? :>)

A


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:30 PM

"According to the media elite's rulebook, when liberals rant it's called free speech; when conservatives rant it's called incitement to terrorism." – Bernard Goldberg


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:41 PM

I'd think it's more the other way round. I suppose it depends which bits of the media you focus your attention on.


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM

"The biggest corporation, like the humblest private citizen, must be held to strict compliance with the will of the people as expressed in the fundamental law." – Theodore Roosevelt

We sure could do with this type of Conservatism today McGrath


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Subject: RE: political threads
From: khandu
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM

"It's a strange world

Sometimes it leaves me sick

In this strange world

With it's Body Politic"

Well, Amos, it ain't BOB, but whadda ya expect! Poetry??

khandu


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:05 AM

Politics is very important to me, so, I enjoy crossing swords with the opposition. I especially enjoy my exchanges with Doug R. he is always dead wrong, but, he is always a gentleman too. I can't always claim that title.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: wilco
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM

As someone who's political opinions are of a lot more interest to me than to anyone else, I appreciate the opportunity to bore people internationally, and to not be confined to just my local audience of former friends. Seriously, we all need to remember to "tone it down."
I am fearful that strong opinions will discourage people from participating.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: C-flat
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:42 AM

Some of the best writing I've seen has been in the political threads and I'm in no doubt that there are a number of well educated, political thinkers lurking around Mudcat. What I've never seen is one persons reasoned argument winning another over to his/her way of thinking so I suppose they're not exactly "debates", rather a chance to air your own views.
I read them but tend not to get involved for the same reasons as Rick.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:11 AM

Politics and fiddlesticks
Their drumming up support
Where barking past the newer tricks
Our slogans shall cavort


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: pattyClink
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:07 PM

Just to chime in to the poll: I think they're 98% nuisance. I've learned a bit from the ones about the public singing regulations in England. From the others, it's mostly a lot of 'I hate Bush/Cheney/Republicans/etc.'   Which is certainly people's right to speak up, but, it's sad because it reinforces the old stereotypes of 'if you're not liberal, go away from folk music'. I think folk music has enough of a struggle to be heard in my area without being branded as a one-party genre.   

Disclosure: I am a radical moderate, I don't want prayer in the schools OR "Heather has two mommies".

Weird fact: I tried to post this earlier today and got an error page. Left wing conspiracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM

Or maybe a right wing conspiracy?

Agreed it get more interesting when it gets away from tribal name-calling and gets round to talking about actual issues.

It's irritating when people seem to be adopting particular views, or rejecting particular views, because they coincide with a particular party line. The beliefs and principles should come first, and then, maybe, you'll find there's some party that agrees with some of them, and that might be a reason to back it, at least part way.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:37 PM

I think Catspaw and Susan have said it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 05:53 PM

ALWAYS DEAD WRONG? Kendall, you idjit! And I had already picked out a nice sleek sexy Llama to send you for Christmas! Well you can just forget that! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:10 PM

Doug: Send it to me. According to my Wes Ginny slide rule you're only wrong 95% of the time which makes you right (*right*) about 5%.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:59 PM

He's right about Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby for a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:00 PM

"He's right" means "He agrees with me" - just another way of saying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:00 PM

That's all the the 5%, McGrath...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM

The bottom line, when all the shouting is done, is simply this: We all want what is best for this country, but, where the trouble comes in is how to do it. Dems and repubs disagree on how best to do it, that's all. We pick a Rhodes scholar, they pick a moron.


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:43 PM

We pick affluence and .coms and they choose war and recession...


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Subject: RE: BS: political threads
From: Deda
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:06 PM

I enjoy the political threads and I'm glad they're there, but they are the first ones I quit reading when I don't have much free time. I used to participate in the ones about which I have strong feelings or personal experience (i.e., family living in Israel) but I don't have time any more. Reading and participating in those threads didn't ever change my opinions but it did provide me with more information often, and when I could verify it I would use that information outside, in real live discussions.

Speaking of having time, I am amazed at how much time many people have to invest in the 'cat. Nobody's being paid to post here -- how does everyone manage? I imagine scores of neglected families, children crying, unanswered mail, unpaid bills, while 'catters gather around their glowing 'puter screens, typing madly away...


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Mudcat time: 28 January 2:55 PM EST

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