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BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....

Bobert 07 Oct 02 - 08:22 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 07 Oct 02 - 08:25 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM
DougR 07 Oct 02 - 09:17 PM
Sorcha 07 Oct 02 - 09:25 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 02 - 09:57 PM
Amos 07 Oct 02 - 10:15 PM
DougR 07 Oct 02 - 10:29 PM
NicoleC 07 Oct 02 - 10:37 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 07 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM
NicoleC 07 Oct 02 - 11:15 PM
Sorcha 07 Oct 02 - 11:22 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 08 Oct 02 - 12:05 AM
Don Firth 08 Oct 02 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,George W 08 Oct 02 - 07:32 AM
Bobert 08 Oct 02 - 10:08 AM
M.Ted 08 Oct 02 - 10:20 AM
Bobert 08 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM
M.Ted 08 Oct 02 - 03:37 PM
jimmyt 08 Oct 02 - 03:54 PM
DonD 08 Oct 02 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 08 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM
Bill D 08 Oct 02 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 09 Oct 02 - 12:36 AM
DougR 09 Oct 02 - 12:45 AM
Bob Bolton 09 Oct 02 - 11:49 PM
M.Ted 09 Oct 02 - 11:56 PM
Peg 10 Oct 02 - 12:01 AM
Coyote Breath 10 Oct 02 - 01:01 AM
DougR 10 Oct 02 - 01:42 AM
Mark Cohen 10 Oct 02 - 03:27 AM
Mark Cohen 10 Oct 02 - 06:36 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 10 Oct 02 - 08:49 AM
Fortunato 10 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM
DougR 10 Oct 02 - 12:13 PM
Wolfgang 10 Oct 02 - 12:20 PM
YOR 10 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM
DougR 10 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM
Bill D 10 Oct 02 - 01:28 PM
M.Ted 10 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM
NicoleC 10 Oct 02 - 07:11 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 02 - 07:57 PM
M.Ted 10 Oct 02 - 11:40 PM
Peg 11 Oct 02 - 12:33 AM
Troll 11 Oct 02 - 03:35 AM
GUEST 11 Oct 02 - 07:06 AM
Bobert 11 Oct 02 - 08:11 AM
Teribus 11 Oct 02 - 08:37 AM
Peg 11 Oct 02 - 10:14 AM
DougR 11 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM
Peg 11 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM
Bagpuss 11 Oct 02 - 11:34 AM
Bagpuss 11 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM
SharonA 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM
NicoleC 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM
Little Hawk 11 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM
DougR 11 Oct 02 - 12:33 PM
NicoleC 11 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM
YOR 11 Oct 02 - 12:58 PM
SharonA 11 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM
M.Ted 11 Oct 02 - 01:50 PM
SharonA 11 Oct 02 - 01:52 PM
DougR 11 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM
Little Hawk 11 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM
Little Hawk 11 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 11 Oct 02 - 09:52 PM
Celtic Soul 11 Oct 02 - 09:55 PM
jimmyt 11 Oct 02 - 10:23 PM
GUEST 11 Oct 02 - 10:52 PM
DougR 12 Oct 02 - 02:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM
GUEST 12 Oct 02 - 08:26 AM
Troll 12 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 02 - 02:14 PM
DougR 12 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM
YOR 12 Oct 02 - 11:50 PM
Bobert 13 Oct 02 - 12:15 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 AM
Troll 13 Oct 02 - 07:07 AM
Bobert 13 Oct 02 - 08:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 02 - 09:03 AM
Troll 13 Oct 02 - 10:58 AM
Willie-O 13 Oct 02 - 11:13 AM
Bobert 13 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 02 - 12:27 PM
DougR 13 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM
Peg 13 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM
Willie-O 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 PM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 02 - 04:55 PM
DougR 14 Oct 02 - 12:28 AM
Teribus 14 Oct 02 - 08:03 AM
harpgirl 14 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM
Bullfrog Jones 14 Oct 02 - 08:40 AM
Celtic Soul 14 Oct 02 - 01:09 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 14 Oct 02 - 01:14 PM
Glade 14 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM
YOR 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM
Bobert 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM
53 14 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM
YOR 25 Oct 02 - 11:06 PM
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Subject: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:22 PM

Well, danged, if this ain't a heck of a sitiation. Here in the Wsahington, D.C. area we got a nut with a gun who has shot about 8 or 9 folks in the last 4 days and killed 5. I mean, nothin' like the guy a few years back who killed so many in the McDonald's or the guy on the tower in Austin, Texas but a certified nut non the less...

Problem is that between Bush trying to get everyone terrorized of Saddam and what has now been about 10 hours of endless coverage of the gun nut by the media, now we have schools being cancelled and folks be warned to stay off the streets and hide under their beds.

My prediction is if the gun nut shoots just one more person that he will surpass the amount of media coverage that was Given to the assasination of John Kennedy. Hey, he's allready pushed Bobby down one positon.

And some of you all wonder why this ol' hillbilly is so sick and tired of a media that wants nothin' more than a terrorized citizenry.

Beam me up...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:25 PM

Hi, Bobert: Truth is, I've been nervous about some of our friends down there in the D.C. area. When shootings are so random, it makes everyone seem vulnerable. I dunno though, Bobert, ole buddy... it least it is a diversion from Range Rider Bush and his vigilantes. I find it too difficult to watch him on television, so I came upstairs to see who was kicking around. I'm a great fan of diversions...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM

Me too, Jerry, I refuse to turn on the TV tonight for fear of Bush or the "shooter". Hmmmmmmmmmm?

I might catch a little Monday night football though. I have a feeling that both Bush and the "shooter" will also be watching...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:17 PM

Bobert! You didn't watch your president's speech! You might have learned something if you had (not that you would have believed him of course :>))

Dougr


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:25 PM

Doug, if it comes out of his mouth, it is a mis-truth of some sort. Not necessarily a lie, but a warped distortion of the truth. This shooter is seriously scary. I sort of hope he/she/it attempts to "evade capture".........somebody has declared "Open Season" on humans, looks like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:57 PM

Yeah, Sorch, this is one toughie, fir sure. The only thing that bothers mne is that we had 10 hours of non-stop media about htis morning's shooting. I happen to think with that kind of attention, he (or she) will just get more jollies and more motivation.

And another aspect of hte entire thing is that I watch Channel 5 news at 10:00 at night and the first 20 minutes *very* night are about the day's shootings. They never make the front pages. Heck, they might not even make the newspapers but they happen every day. Now, we have one guy (presumably) who gets to pre-empt an entire days woth of scheduled programs, including the news.

Something wrong with the media's priorities...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:15 PM

Something wrong with the media's priorities...


I'll say -- let's try a dedication to low-grade electrification and stirring up the basest feelings in their audience they possibly can, for starters, the idea being that it will form a habituation of chronic fear, resentment, and mindless acceptance of how bad the world is.

It is not about truth; it is about what they do with their stories.

I always feel better when I completely ignore the media for a week. I highly recommend it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:29 PM

I won't belabor the point about Bobert avoiding listening to the president's speech because the subject of this thread is the awful things happening in the Maryland/D.C. area. I hope it does not prove to be the work of terrorists in that area. An insane serial shooter is bad enough.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:37 PM

Doug,

I won't watch the President on TV, either. (Or radio.) It's awful. The man has the speaking skills, grammar and diction of a 4 year old. I'll catch the transcipt in the AP wire in the morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM

Maybe they can claim that the shootist in D.C. is a terrorist, and find another reason for starting war with Iraq...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:15 PM

God help us if the shooter happens to have a grandfather from Iran. The war-monger's'll consider that reason to bomb another country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:22 PM

I still think it's just an insane crazy; not necessarily a terrorist, except in the very broad definiton of the word. It is definitely "terrorizing" the DC area, isn't It? And yes, media exposure just escalates it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:05 AM

The possible scenarios behind this one are mind boggling to me. What seems likely, and/or insane may or may not be the same here. People have gone "postal" before in the states, and we've never really considered it to be foriegn sponsored terrorism... but now we wonder about it... and then again there is the spector of a notion that conspiracy theorists often are drawn to about JFK... The only similarity here is the acuracy of the gunman, and potentially the timing... Naw... I just don't want to go there...

As far as the 'coverage' is concerned, I'm all for it! Could be the best way to get down on this cold blooded murderer, and fast... If we are addicted to the news, and I for one certainly am, we can just go 'cold turkey' when we must... But really now... this is a precedent, and we all should be tuned in a bit to it.

Do I think that all this 'terrorism' is completely and totally unrelated to our 'choice' of a president? Well now... What next? ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 01:41 AM

I did watch Bush's speech and you didn't miss much. He didn't say anything that he hasn't said before. Same old assertions; still no proof.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST,George W
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 07:32 AM

I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!I WANT TO CONFLICTERIZE WITH I,RAQ !!!!

OR I'LL SKWEEM AND SKWEEM AND SKWEEM TILL I'M SICK


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:08 AM

Patience, George. Just let you PR folks spend a few more million of tax payers bucks and you and daddy will get it....

Guar-enn-teeed...

Meanwhile, back at the east coast ranch, the media is still kidnapped by a nut with a gun...

This mornings Washington Post headlines in letters the size usually saved for announcing the results of a Presidental election read, "Boy, 13, Shot by Sniper at School" and all of the morning programing has been pushed aisde for endless chatter by psychologists, community leaders and parents relating how they're gonna keep their kids home from school...

Nevermind...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 10:20 AM

Just as an interesting and bizarre aside, the first group of shootings occurred in the same area as the Royal Mile--


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM

Hmmmmmm? You know somthing here that you'd like to tell us, M.Ted? Just funnin' with ya...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 03:37 PM

I may have something to do with the haggis--


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 03:54 PM

God help us if they find the shooter and he/she turns out to be a traveller! probably would be more discrimination, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DonD
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 04:44 PM

So Cheney says: "We're going to kill four million Iraqis and shoot a dozen or so random victims in the DC suburbs."
"Why are you going to shoot a dozen or so random victims in the DC suburbs?"
And Bush says: "See, I told you nobody would care about four million Iraqis!"

Or have I messed up the story somehow? I think it's the economy and the environment and the corruption we're not supposed to care about.

Christopher Hitchins, in a review in the current Atlantic Monthly notes that Mathhew Scully, author of a new book on the suffering of animals is a former Bush speech-writer: "He left his job in the executive mansion to forward this piece of advocacy. Who can speak for the dumb? A man who has had to answer this question on behalf of the President himself is now stepping forward on behalf of the truly voiceless."

But isn't it strange that the protester at the UN, firing off shots to draw attention to North Korean tyrranies, turns out to be a postal worker?!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM

(quote)
"Bobert! You didn't watch your president's speech! You might have learned something if you had "

Sorry , but anyone in the Wash.D.C. PBS broadcasting area would've leraned something of far more worth watching instead the Ken Bruns Episode 1 on "Frank Lloyd Wright".

Bush's speech before the U.N. made its point already .
If he feels so strongly about it let him make his case before the a full Congressional audience. Anything less is a campaign speech in some "friendly" Republican district like any run-of-the-barnyard variety chickenhawk.

I want to see how his plans to rebuild Iraq while trying to still rebuild Afghanistan complete with pictures with all of the cirlces and arrows and the cost estimates written on back.

Till he makes *that* case he's an empty suit offering a half-baked plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 11:18 PM

strange thread...I can't quite figure out what the topic is. Shootings? Terrorism? The Bushlet? Or just whatever folks have in their heads?
Most of those shootings took place within 5-10 minutes drive of my house, yet I never felt threatened or in 'danger'...Yes there is someone crazy out there, but randomness means I could get hit by a car as easily as I could be shot.

   All I know is, the media are sure hypeing this all out of proportion, with rampant speculation and interviews with people trying to evoke 'emotion'...there is a police investigation to be done, leads to follow, victims to help, and at the same time, life to be led.

If this idiot keeps trying this, he WILL be caught, but in the meantime, why psychoanalyze him when we have no idea who he is or why he is doing this? And WHY are so many people refusing to go to school or a restaurant? You can't shut down life when there is little pattern to the shootings.......

I think whoever it is will NOT come back and do it again in the same place, so I will go about my business as usual....


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 12:36 AM

(quote)
"Yes there is someone crazy out there, but randomness means I could get hit by a car as easily as I could be shot."

And obviously you've survived both....today......so far.
Yeah thgis is a tough one for local news whom have nothing but the usual suspects of local deviations from the norm to feed of off : ie: Storm damage, car accidents , robberies, fires, and, yes, sadly shootings.

Maryland is an ironic case because it has tougher gun laws than neighboring Virginia or Pennasylvania. This is also going to be a tough one for the N.R.A. to take a position on because their mantra is the more armmed law-biding citizenry the less we would have to fear from unlawful gun-abusers.

Would love to see ol' Charleton "Moses" Heston offer the NRA evangel from the mount as a defense against an apparent practiced sniper....and potential NRA member in good standing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 12:45 AM

Or Al Quida member.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 11:49 PM

Or (ex-?)Army sniper ...

I seem to remember hearing that they quietly shredded Lee Harvey Oswald's Marine records.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Oct 02 - 11:56 PM

Another shooting tonite, this in a service station in Manassas--too early to tell, but the circumstances are the same--a single person, shot once, no one in the immediate area--I can't believe that you don't feel a slight twinge of apprehension while you're pumping gas, BillD--


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 12:01 AM

This whole thing reminds me of when the "sniper" thing first started heppening in the 1970s. In recent years people just up and fire away at point blank range (call it an anger management problem) and so this is kinda new and different; someone who gets off on random anonymous killing.

No reason to hide inside though. The media's constant coverage of this is ridiculous. Yes, it's scary for those who live in the area and it may well spawn copycats, but the more fear we instill into the public the more likely they will feel a need to have their own guns and these newly-armed self-styled militants will be so trigger-happy at looking over their shoulders for snipers that they'll end up shooting more innocent people.

Al Queda? Extremely doubtful. Those guys have no interest in taking people out in this slow, methodical manner. Too risky. This guy enjoys the chase and I think secertly wants to be caught. This is a disgruntled and probably sociopathic (or psychopathic) killer, most likely a relatively young unemployed white guy: 30s, loner, all swept up in the fear-fest that passes for news these days, he's pulling a Travis Bickle and enjoying being the center of attention. He will either get caught soon, or kill himself in some fiery conflagration. There won't be a trial, I feel pretty sure of that (there never is anymore; the gunmen always either commit suicide or get blown away by the SWAT team).

Then what horrific bloodfest will dominate the nightly news, when this is all over?


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:01 AM

I ALWAYS feel a twinge of aprehension while pumping gas but that's because of the price we will ultimately pay for it...(cryptic).

The shootings in the DC area ARE terrorist actions since people are terrorized. They seem to be solo actions. The shooter is a damn good shot. He has hit all but his first target. It makes me wonder if he wasn't trained to shoot people. All his shots have been at distances well over one hundred yards. That is farther than typical deer hunter skill (although antelope and coyotes are considered 'good' long distance targets). I don't think this shooter is an amateur by any means.

The Tarot card with the "Dear Mr. Policeman, I am God" message is probably a taunt since one of the media's "experts" stated that the shooter was acting out being "God", and that was a strong motivating factor in his actions.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:42 AM

CB: I agree. If he is not a terrorist, he/she certainly is accomplishing what the terrorists aim to do. If this keeps up and the shooter is not arrested soon, the whole population of that area is going to be mighty nervous.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 03:27 AM

Hey, Doug, it's been a long time since we've had something to disagree on! I did listen to part of Mr. Bush's speech. I heard him say, "Why should we be so concerned about Iraq, when there are other countries who have such terrible weapons?" A good question...and how did he answer it? "Because these weapons are all in one place." Now, am I missing something, or is that a stupid, mindless, non-answer? I also heard him say, "Why do we have to act right now?" Another good question, since we've known about Saddam Hussein's monomania and weapons of mass destruction for better than a decade. Why does it have to be now, before the United Nations has a chance to act, before we figure out just what the hell we're going to do with a post-Saddam Iraq, before--gee, whiz--the elections? And the answer, "Because the situation is getting worse and not better." Well, that answers the old urgency question for me, for sure.

I mean, I can think of a dozen places in the world where there are bad leaders who have threatened their neighbors, and things aren't getting any better with them. Let's go get 'em!   Oh, and some of them have "weapons of mass destruction", too. Did you listen to some of the rhetoric coming out of Pakistan and India? They already have nukes. How about Colombia, whose leaders have been getting fat off the drug trade for years? They've killed a whole lot more Americans than the number who died on 9/11. Why don't we invade them?

Doug, I would just ask you one thing: consider -- just consider -- the possibility that President Bush may not be telling the American people the whole truth. Presidents have been known to lie to the American people. Look at LBJ, who managed to get Congress to give him war powers after telling everybody that the ARVN attacked us in the Gulf of Tonkin, when they didn't. Look at Nixon...or your friend Clinton, for that matter. It happens. And it might be happening now. In which case, a whole lot of people are going to die, for no reason at all. So what else is new?

And by the way, I'm NOT suggesting that Saddam Hussein is not a rapacious dictator, or that he doesn't have chemical and biological weapons. I'm suggesting that the reason the President is asking Congress to abdicate their constitutional responsibility may have very little to do with those particular facts, and may have very much to do with a very different agenda that has much more to do with oil and power and GHWB and his friends than it does with patriotism and "keeping America safe."

(Just didn't want you to think that because I've been so quiet I suddenly became a Republican, Doug!)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 06:36 AM

By the way, take a look at this recent speech of Senator Robert Byrd. I know, he's a Democrat. But as a Senator, at least he has more credibility than I do when it comes to the Constitution. And he quotes Lincoln--a Republican!--to describe the utter folly of Congress giving any President the power to wage war on any nation he perceives to be a threat. That kinglike power is exactly what the framers of the Constitution were trying to avoid--so said President Lincoln. Seems kind of ironic, doesn't it? All those American soldiers who are going to be dying to make the world safe for autocracy...

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 08:49 AM

Jimmyt.... a zinger...:-)

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM

They better be damned sure they're right if they're going to ask our sons and daughters to die. And we better not find out if it's oil and greed and not imminent danger. Do the Bushes have any children who will go to war? Any Cheney's? Rumsfeld's? Or will there be only the children of the masses, cannon fodder as they have always been? No. Not only no, but hell no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 12:13 PM

Hey, Mark! Never would I believe you had "converted!" :>)

Sure, Bush could be lying. I don't know what his motive would be but I'm sure you or others can suggest some. I don't think he anticipates relocating from his ranch in Crawford, Texas to Baghad, so he's not looking for a new home (I don't believe). He needs the oil fields! Well, his dad didn't take over the oil fields in Kuwait at the close of Desert Storm, and one might suspect that since Dad was also a president, the penchant for presidents not to tell the truth should have run strong through his veins too right?

The House and the Senate, after a bunch of wrangling, weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to give the president the Resolution he needs to convince the U. N. to act it appears. They probably will do so today after a lot of posturing by Senators who are putting on a great show for their constituents on C-Span2.

I have been watching off and on myself, and I enjoy Senator Byrd's dramatic speeches very much. Note I didn't say I agreed with him, but he sure puts on a good show.

I do not think, once the President has the resolution he will immediately order troops to attack Iraq. I do think it will be used to encourage the U. N. Security Council to get off the dime, and get tough with Saddam.

Thread creep, I know, but since you directed your remarks to me, I felt it appropriate to comment in this thread.

After watching CSpan2 for the last couple of days, I wonder how the Senate EVER gets anything done.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 12:20 PM

I don't agree (yet) with those who call this person a terrorist. In very broad definitions (see Sorcha), inflicting terror is the only defining feature for 'terrorism'. If you follow such a definition, he (I know it would be correct to add 'or she' but somehow I can't picture Peg's predictive description being far off the mark here) surely is a terrorist.

Most definitions I recollect require an aim (like overthrow of a government, induce the USA to stop supporting Israel,...) in the sense of making someone else change their ways in addition to an act inflicting terror to call the act terrorism. An aim I don't see yet in this series of murder.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM

I live in the Maryland burbs, two children attending two different Prince Georges County Schools. My sons high school has a policeman at the school all the time, even before the sniper. My daughters elementary school of course has police at opening and closing times for now. The high school I drive by every morning has a police car sitting right up by the main road where he can see the entire parking lot, and probably more important be seen.

Both my kids are going to school everyday and riding the buses. The schools have been in 'code blue' (lockdown and no outside activities). I think thats a good move on thier part, just playing it safe. This sitiation can not change your daily life. I deter talking about it in length with my daughter. I think that will only increase her worry. She's had the 'street smart training/talks' thats all that can be done for now.

The sniper is on everyones mind. Traffic seems lighter, gas stations, convience stores, shopping centers and malls all seem less crowded.

My parents called me from NC the other night. Just making sure I'm ok right. I had to keep it light and kid with them. "Millions of people in the area and a random shooter" and "My work was at least 8 miles from the Bowie shooting".

I don't think the sniper is a terrorist! I think he/she is a out of the ordinary mindless demented psycho.

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:17 PM

Well, perhaps Roy, and Wolfgang, you are right. I certainly see your point, Wolfgang. Perhaps he/she (I think it is not likely that it is a woman but in the interest of not inciting the Women's Rights crowd I don't want to slight them)is just a sicko serial killer.

I can certainly understand the anxiety of those living in the area.

There was a similar bunch of murders in Texarkana, Texas, back in about 1947-48. People would be sitting in their living rooms listening to the radio and the killer would shoot them through the window. As far as I know, those murders were never solved.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 01:28 PM

responding to "-I can't believe that you don't feel a slight twinge of apprehension while you're pumping gas, BillD--"

it's interesting...I feel a lot more apprehension when crossing the street, or driving on the Washington beltway, or walking durnig a thunderstorm...I know there is one additional 'problem' out there right now, but since this idiot is shooting from a distance and evidently using different vehicles, I can't see anything I can do to avoid him, except stay home. There is nothing in particular to watch for, and the odds of him picking ME is tremendous!...as in millions to one!

I really AM in more danger from red-light runners, who I see every day!.....This person IS sick and needs to be caught and dealt with soon, but changing my habits will make NO difference. (I watch for 'white box trucks', but so do a million other people, and I doubt very much THAT truck is still out there)

I don't mind taking precautions when I can see why, but this is not as bad as suicide bombers in Israel where 'not riding the bus' can help keep you slightly safer.

The sniper will make a mistake, or he will just stop.....and how long will we keep schools on alert and refuse to eat in outdoor cafes if he does NOT do anything more for awhile?...The leaving of that taunting card tells me that he craves attention and will brag, try again, or something that will get his sorry ass busted!....I do hope his aim is bad next time...too many good people have been hirt....


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM

If you shopped at any of the shopping plazas, or used any of the service stations, the odds were considerably less than a million to one--Of course, "odds" implies chance, and chance relates to random events, these events only seemed random--

Personally, I'm not buying gas near an expressway, or shopping at Michael's, and I' avoiding Target completely----


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 07:11 PM

Well, Doug, I agree that Congress will give the Shrub what he wants, because the Repubs have been winning the PR war that if you disagree with the President, you're unpatriotic -- and it makes elections risky if your opponent can accuse of being "unpatriotic" for the crime of thinking for yourself.

However, I disagree that the Shrub needs the resolution to negotiate with the UN. The resolution has nothing to do with *negotiation.* It amounts to "If you don't give me what I want, I now have the power to attack any of you if I arbitrarily decide you're a threat." That's not negotiation, it's bullying and it's blackmail.

If you can't make a case without threats, there's no case to be made. Period.

Back to on topic discussion -- the "terrorist" label gets thrown around a lot lately. Semantically, it's null, because it's a political term that refers to whomever you disagree with if they choose to fight and kill some of your people. At least terrorists have motives.

This is not a terrorist in DC, it's a cold-blooded murderer who doesn't even have the shallow kind of justification of a political cause. Using pop-culture terms like "terrorist" and "collateral damage" and "suicide bombers" when you refer to killing minimizes the very real fact that people are DEAD, their families shattered, their children orphaned and spouses widowed and parents grieving.

Let's say it together, folks, "Murderer." Not terror-ist, murder-ist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 07:57 PM

I agree, Nicole, this guy is a nut. He (or she) is a murderer. Nothing more. Nothing less. Where the terror comes in is when the media pre-empts a days worth of programing and rams this murderer down the troats of everyone within 100 miles of Washington, D.C.

Now who are the terrorists? The shooter or the media? Hmmmmmmm?

I just think that it is very strange to live around D.C. and have this really evil thing going on in Congress at the same time that the media seems to have half the people pinned down in fear of a nut...

Nevermind...

This may make no sense to any one but me...

Like I said, nevermind...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 11:40 PM

Your distinguished Senator, Mr. Byrd, mentioned the very thing in his discussions in the Senate yesterday--He is very entertaining, which is a rare quality in a politician--


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:33 AM

there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that this sniper is a woman and I find your "Women's Rights crowd" comment to be downright offensive, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 03:35 AM

The aim of the terrorist is to cause the general populance to lose faith in the ability of the Government to protect them from random acts of violence.
By this standard, the DC Sniper is certainly a terrorist. And I hate to disagree, Peg, but women cannot be ruled out. The Weathermen, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Bader-Meinhoff Gang all had female members and some of them did in fact kill people.
I wish I had your certainty, but I don't. I have seen too much evil perpetrated by both sexes to automatically write one off.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 07:06 AM

How many of you noticed the celebration of the events of 9-11 in Riyadh? Wasn't given much publicity, was it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 08:11 AM

Ted: Yeah, Byrd is a real bird, that's fir sure. But we like him 'cause he's a purdy smart feller for a hillbilly. Plus, he is considered by many in Congress as the leading authority in the Senate on Constitutional matters, not to mention rounding up a little pork on the side fir us,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 08:37 AM

Hi Peg,

"This is a disgruntled and probably sociopathic (or psychopathic) killer, most likely a relatively young unemployed white guy: 30s, loner, all swept up in the fear-fest that passes for news these days, he's pulling a Travis Bickle and enjoying being the center of attention. He will either get caught soon, or kill himself in some fiery conflagration. There won't be a trial, I feel pretty sure of that (there never is anymore; the gunmen always either commit suicide or get blown away by the SWAT team)."

Sure hope to hell that if this guy (and his/her accomplice, if the white van theory is correct) is caught, he/she doesn't turn out to be an Irish Traveller.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:14 AM

I think it pretty unlikely it's a traveller; seems an imperinent comment, actually. Belongs in another thread perhaps? My knowledge of the travelling communiuty does not support an image of one of them as a gun-toting sociopath...


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

Peg: will you lighten up, for Christ's sake? Why couldn't it be a woman? You are so confident a woman couldn't be the shooter. I'd like to know why. Women are not capable of being a sharpshooter? Wrong. Women are more compassionate than men? Give me a break.

Nicole: and then there is also the possibility that the congress and Bush are right, and you and Bobert are wrong! :>)

Bobert: your guy certainly went down swinging. I've got to say that. His arguments were simply overcome by senators who are more attuned to the 21st century, rather than the 19th century. Note that I did not say by senators who are more knowledgable about the Constitution though. Senator Byrd reminds me of the old-style evangelical preacher who preaches that the Holy Bible should be taken literally.

DougR   

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:26 AM

Doug, your sarcasm with your earlier comment was what I took umbrage with, not the speculation over whether the shooter could be a woman...BUT since you bring it up, in the VAST MAJORITY of these sorts of crimes, it is a man who is the perpetrator. Women are capable of being sharpshooters of course; that's not what is first and foremost significant about this crime. As for women being more compassionate, yes, that is often true, but the issue here is violence and psychopathology. Serial killers throughout history are nearly always (at least 99.9% of the time) MEN. I am sure you could find examples of women if you tried but that would clearly be the exception (but you are usually too lazy to dig up examples, preferring instead to criticize others' points of view for not being "factual" enough or "proven"). You seem to enjoy lording it over everyone with your love of the FACTS. That serial killers or sniper-type killers are nearly always men is a FACT. It has nothing to do with anyone being a feminist or not so leave that out of it, if you please. Facts are facts. Live with it and stop being so ornery about being called on your snotty, sexist rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:34 AM

I'm not making a point really, but I can think of at least 2 female serial killers off the top of my head: Rosemary West and Myra Hindley. However there was also a man involved in both their cases.

I don't know the rates for serial killers, but for murder/manslaughter in general in the UK, I think it's more like 90% male and 10% female perpetrators.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bagpuss
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM

Just found some stats. This site says that 8% of US serial killers are female. I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that they are less likely to use shooting as their method compared to men.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM

Another shooting, another death: this time in Fredericksburg, Virginia, at about 9:30 am EDT today. Yet again, it was at a gas station. A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen near the station around the time of the shooting. Police had earlier speculated that the sniper's vehicle was a white Isuzu minivan/box-truck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:04 PM

Doug, if the Prez wants to pony up some proof, I'll be happy to listen. Unsubstantiated rhetoric is not going to convince me of anything.

Now, I know Doug won't read it 'cause it doesn't come from Rush, but here's an interesting point by point commentary on the Prez's speech:
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1009-10.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:26 PM

Awww, c'mon, Nicole! "Unsubstantiated rhetoric" is what makes the world go round...certainly in this town, anyway. :-) It is the foundation of most successful political careers, most religions, and most advertising. Are you suggesting that we dismantle the very structures upon which our glorious civilization was built?

Hmmmmm....

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:33 PM

I will so read it, Nicole!

Peg: do you give sarcasm lessons? You're awfully good at it yourself.

I, too, believe that the shooter is male. I would not discount entirely that it could be a female though.

The state of Florida executed a woman serial killer yesterday or the day before. I believe her choice of weapon was a gun.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: NicoleC
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM

LH, I would never accuse the Shrub of inventing unsustantiated rhetoric. I think that honor belongs to Og the Caveman.

He just seems to like it an awful lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:58 PM

The vanhunt & manhunt in VA has had almost constant coverage on the radio this morning. Traffic nightmare along with the rain. I hope its' not a bystander. I'd drive off fast if I heard a gun shot.

VA would be a good state to catch this maggot in. The MD courts are gutless.

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Just listened to part of a news conference on the radio while in my car. There was a VA police officer across the street from this morning's shooting, handling a traffic accident. Unfortunately the cop did not see the shooting happen; he just heard it. Apparently the white Chevy van was followed and stopped but the occupants had nothing to do with the shooting, so they still have no suspect in custody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:50 PM

Given that these people are out there killing every day, there is more that I'd like to know in order to keep my family safe, and I am not hearing it in the news briefings--


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:52 PM

Frankly, I'm worried about the wedding of Jack the Sailor and CarolC tomorrow. If anyone who's reading this is planning to attend the wedding, for Pete's sake don't stop at a gas station in MD, DC or VA (at least, not one near a major highway – that seems to be the sniper's preferred location). Be careful, everyone!!!!!

Sharon


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 05:38 PM

YOR, I found your comment on the courts in MD interesting. When they catch the guy (and EVERYONE agrees it must be a guy) ...oops, sarcasm...sorry! What do you think should happen to the guy?

You evidently feel the MD courts might be a bit lenient on him, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:13 PM

I think the important thing is catching him, rather than what happens to him afterward (which I'm sure will not be good, from his point of view). I'm not into vengeance, but I am in favour of protecting people (needless to say). For those who are into vengeance, well, you can always look back fondly to the days of the Spanish Inquisition, burning at the stake, ripping out fingernails, etc...and think wistfully of how much better things would be if we could only return to those enlightened times. Think how much safer we would all feel...

He'll probably make a mistake and get caught presently. Just hope it happens sooner, not later.

In the meantime, you are probably still in more danger driving to work than you are from him...statistically speaking. I read yesterday in the paper that an average of 1.6 million people a year die from violence worldwide, and that the number one cause of violent death worldwide is...






Suicide.

It doesn't get reported nearly as much as most of the others, however, and this may be partly because there is no one to prosecute and/or execute for having done it. No target for vengeance, in other words.

The number two cause of violent death is traffic accidents. War and murder come a long way after the first two in your average year. This must be quite frustrating to serial killers, who obviously think the very worst of humanity...and act it out, accordingly.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM

I read in the paper that in Maryland they have a law that for every handgun sold they keep a sample bullet case - but they don't bother to do that for rifles, so that's not much help this time around.

Sounds to me like it's someone who's decided that shoot-em-up video games aren't enough, and has moved on to doing it for real. I can't help wondering how safe it is having millions of people whose idea of fun is playing around for hours on end with fantasies of going round casually killing strangers. All with the right to buy guns with telescopic sights.

And now they are all watching this on the TV, and some of them are maybe getting ready to flip, and there'll be the copycat killings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM

Interesting point, McGrath. I believe that THE most popular genre of video game nowadays is the "Shooter" variety. They are really, really sick. They all involve operating from a godlike perspective, peering down the sights of the weapon of your choice, and killing, killing, killing. Killing literally hundreds of computer-generated victims, while being almost unkillable yourself (specially once you've mastered the specific tricks of the game in question...which takes many hours of play). Then, how like a "god"...or a demon.

This is pathetic. It says a lot about the society that markets such stuff.

These are the favoured games of choice amongst young males right now. It's a way of feeling powerful, and it's the powerless who seek that feeling, right?

Well, young males have always been troubled by feelings of powerlessness, but seldom has society tacitly encouraged them toward such violent and impersonal fantasies so completely devoid of any coherent meaning or philosophy in the greater context of life.

It isn't just a problem of the video game industry, it's a problem of the society in general, its entertainment system, and its heroes. Very poor role models are being provided for the young...and that is the status quo out there in the Empire. As some famous jerk in American sports history once said, "winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing". Uh-huh. No honour, no character, no mercy...just win..."live and let die", to use another phrase.

There's another type of game that's very popular too...the "driver" game. In most of these you drive a car at breakneck speeds through city streets, ramming other cars, driving across lawns and medians, knocking over mailboxes and pedestrians and living out your brief 15 minutes of mayhem and glory, with a herd of police cars in pursuit, until you finally total your vehicle against some unyielding surface and the game ends. No sweat. You just start over again and re-experience the thrill of being an antisocial asshole with a death wish.

Great education for young minds, isn't it?

One wonders when the free enterprise system will sweep aside another archaic taboo and start marketing "rapist" games, too? I bet they'd sell like hotcakes. And, after all, it would all be just virtual reality, right? No one would really be getting raped...so why should a bunch of bleeding heart sociologists and philosophers stand in the way of businessmen making an honest buck marketing a harmless product?

Echoes of the Fall of humanity. And all for a lousy buck.

I believe it won't be so much the swastika that a future and far wiser civilization will look back on some day with ultimate horror, as it will be the dollar sign $$$...and the other symbols of currency that presently rule the world.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:52 PM

Hey, now I know this is gonna start something but, ahhhhhh, why is it that a nutball can go to a gun shop and not be able to buy a gun and be told by the gun shop owner to meet him at the local gun show that afternoon and be able to by the same gun? No checks. No nothing. I mean, this is one *stupid* law.

And the NRA used to stand for gun *safety*. Hahahahah. Now all they care about is making sure that any, no make that *any*, no make that ANY f**kin' nut that wants to buy a gun is gonna get one.

Excuse my French...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:55 PM

Well, as I live here, and as one of the people who died was killed less than mile from where my Father lives, and as I do not watch *any* TV, or read much news at all, I can tell you I am *still* living with fear.

It is not the media that is scary here, Bobert...

It's the fact that this guy (or guys) are managing to hit and hit and hit again, and that it appears to those I know in the know (cops and military folks) that these "hits" are being done with military precision. Like a trained sniper would in a war.   

If this guy were a kook, he'd do what the kooks do...he'd walk into a single place, and kack off as many people as he could, and then either kill himself, or get shot by the cops. Trauma, surely, but closure in a fairly short amount of time for those living in the area who did not lose someone close to them.   

But no...this guy (or guys) is *not* that kind of insane. He's another kind of insane. The cool and steely kind. The intelligent and wily kind. And *that*, my friends, is why I am afraid for nearly *everyone* I love, as they are nearly all right here in the middle of it.

Come stay with me for awhile...No TV. Just daily reports from your friends and family that someone else a mile from where they live, or at the gas station they that *very day* bought their gas, or at the shopping center they *always* go to shop, or who was *known* by someone you know, is now dead. Then you'll know for certain if it's the media or no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:23 PM

Peg, I suspect Lizzy Borden had had a sex change prior to her big day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:52 PM

Celtic Soul: I am so sorry that my dumb (assed) boney butt posted this thread because it has become a serious problem. When I started the thread it was in reaction (bad, Bobert...) to the over exposure by the media to the situation. While I still believe that the media has some criticism in it's pumping up the ego of this *nut*, I am very concerned that this *nut* is still out there planning his next "hit".

Makes me wanta get in my old Toyota, with my little arsonal and try to just *outthink* him and get him but, with my luck, I'd just get my butt arrested....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 02:29 AM

Bobert: spoken like a true pacifist.

:>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM

Surely the thing against "the media" here would be that the way in which they have dealt with this colludes with the killer, dramatising it as some kind of movie, but in real time.

Instant reward for the killer, instant feedback pushing "him" towards the next installment, the next shooting (and steady encouragement for copycat killers). Using the help in this case of some corrupt police official who leaked the information about that Tarot Card, and in the process screwed up a vital part of the police investigation.

Nothing new about this, it's how the structure of journalism has always been distorted to behave. Any journalist or publication that tries to act with integrity and responsibility is penalised by the editors, or the owners, and of the readers. And by integrity and responsibility I don't mean suppressing news, I mean journalism that writes or presents things in a straight way, rather than twisted into a shape that fits in with a preconceived notion of what will go down best with the readers or the viewers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 08:26 AM

Doug:

Hey, if I had it in my power to stop this nut by what ever minimum level of force was needed, I'd do it. There's a big difference between defending ones self and attacking folks. And notice I didn't say kill the guy. I said "get" him which is a big difference. One can stop someone without having to use *maximum* (killing) force. My weapon of choice is my .22/410 over under survival rifle. The 410 is certainly enough to defend ones self without having to kill...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

Well, well, well. Bobert and I agree on somthing besides the 1st Amendment. The .22/410 is a dandy little self defense weapon if you can use it from concealment. It is, however, a little slow to reload and if you want to use it to wound only, you need to use #6 or #7 shot and not too close ( 10 yards?).

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM

I imagine there might be a few amateur vigilantes like that cruising around; some of them will probably get shot by each other or by the police when they are mistaken for this guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 02:14 PM

It's not the caliber, troll, but the *out thinking* aspect of my above post. With that said, the 410/22 will do just fine. We're not talking conventional warfare. He allready has the *range* aspect figured out so the trick is gonna have to come down to penetrating his space *undetected* and thats were the thinking part come into play.

And I predict that this is the way he will be caught.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM

McGrath: you may well be right, and it appears our friend Bobert might be first in line! *BG*

No me, were I going after him, I think I'd prefer a M1 Garand, or Springfield 1903.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 11:50 PM

Hey Doug,

My comment on the MD courts is based on the fact that carrying out the death penality is on hold here in MD. Pending a long review for the last year or so (or more, don't quote me, its in the hands of the politicians and lawyers). A 'study' came to the conclusion that verticts were unfare because of race and preperation and presentation of evidence. I'm not starting a race issue here, I'm simply saying the courts and law enforcement have not done thier jobs.
----------------------

This maggot! must be stopped, caught and locked up. He should get his day (more like months) in court. And, oh yeah, were going to here about 'his civil rights'. But my feelings are, he 'Ain't worth the buckshot to blow him to hell"!.

A small victory! My 10 year old daughter has not asked me about it for the last couple of days. She's been watching 'Animal Planet'.

This has hit the DC area hard. 9/11, including the Pentagon, Anthrax and now a serial sniper. Wow!. Local TV coverage of all this has been intense and average at best.

This will not change my life. My wife, daughter and I went to 'Midnight Madness 2002' at the University of Maryland last night (MD basketball season starting pep rally). It didn't seem to bother about 17,000 other people either, great.

Its' about time to go to bed, my wife and I are doing the 5K breast cancer run/walk (I'm walking) tomorrow morning. I'll be thinking about it, but I'm going, period!

7 11 Coffee!!!!Gimme

Enjoy, Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:15 AM

Yo, Roy: How'd the Terps look? Yeah, I'm real glad to have Dixon on the Bullets, ahhh, Wizards...

Yeah, I'm not into capital punishement but I wouldn't mind spraying some buckshot on the the dude just to give him something to think about for now.

Yo' Doug: Forget them Springfields and especially that nasty M-1. Being a finger picker, just the thought of an M-1 is painfull. You know what I mean! Ouch! Yeah, I'm stickin' with the over-under.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 AM

.410 slug is 3/4 ounce .41 calibre which at the muzzle has the same velocity as a .44 magnum. Yes properly loaded a .410 can be very lethal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:07 AM

Bobert, there's no need to worry about "M-1 Thumb" if you pay attention to what you're doing.
GUEST, you are quite correct.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 08:34 AM

troll

My thumb declared independence about 30 years ago and since then seems to have a mind of it's own. I tell it to pick one bass pattern and it just goes ahead and does it's own thing, which amazinly is generally better than what I told it to do, but now thats a musical situation. I can just see the danged thing gettin' its independent thinking self inside the breech of the M-1 and going, "Wonder what happens if I do........"

Bobert

P.S. Ain't no way Iz gonna fire no *punkin ball* outta my poor old 410. No way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 09:03 AM

Sounds to me like fantasising about being a vigilante and blowing people away, or about what shold happen to this killer, is another aspect of the same culture that has people who actually go out and do it, like this one. (If it is just one by now.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 10:58 AM

Lighten up, Kevin. We're talking self-defense here, not vigilantism. I am aware that there are places in this world where people are not allowed to possess the means of protecting themselves and their families but that doesn't apply here; not yet at any rate.
Britains much vaunted gun control hasn't managed to keep arms out of Northern Ireland or in England itself for that matter.
There seems to be no lack of high explosives for bombs in London markets.
So, as I said, lighten up.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:13 AM

Self defense does not work against a sniper--you gotta sneak up on him from behind. If you are walking around in the affected area with a gun at the ready, you better be wearing a uniform or you may end up a corpse due to someone else's "self-defense".

This is beyond strange and evil.

And Maryland being full of guns doesn't seem to have helped the situation.

By the way Troll, in gun-controlled Canada the murder rate has always been around 10% of the US's. See, we DO have the means of protecting ourselves: laws that prevent millions of guns being easily accessed by people with criminal or impulsively violent tendencies.

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 11:36 AM

Gee, I hope this thread doesn't morphe into a 2nd Ammendment debate though, as sure as I am that *gun control* discussions have made their way into the Catbox in the past, I wouldn't mind another go at it on another thread BUT I'm not going start one now wigth all the rest of the crap that's going down..

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 12:27 PM

The lower murder rate in Canada is probably partially due to a number of other factors too. Canada has always had a less violent society, even in the 1800's. This was due to a radically different social philosophy which was: send in the law first to a new territory...then send in the settlers, prospectors, etc afterward. In the USA it was anarchy and the rule of the gun and knife first in new territories, the devil take the hindmost, and law enforcement much later (generally following the achievment of statehood). No wonder there was less violence in Canada.

This goes along with a generally aggressive and individualistic philosophy of life in the States as opposed to a more cooperatively and centrally based philosophy of life in Canada...which has a bit to do with the British Empire heritage of common law as opposed to Yankee entreprenurial spirit and self-reliance. Both approaches have certain strengths to recommend them.

Canada (up till recently, anyway) has had a better social safety net. That tends to reduce violence. Canada has fewer inner city ghettos, which again reduces violence.

People tend to imitate the example they see around them as they are growing up. So...a peaceful society has a tendency to remain that way, while a gunslinger-worshipping society has a tendency to remain that way also, and the USA has always worshipped the gunslinger, the lone guy out to "right a wrong", the hero with a dark side.

In real life these guys are almost never heroes...they are mentally disturbed sociopaths. The "Dirty Harry" character was a fascinatingly effective portrayal of the type. In fact, Clint Eastwood has built his whole career around portraying such personalities.

I'd feel a lot safer with the redcoated mounties protecting me...they only killed as a last resort (it was rarely necessary), and they were probably the most elite and effective law enforcement agency in history, back when they still rode horses on the job.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM

Don't worry, Bobert, I know the M1. Shot "Expert" with it in basic training. Never got M1 thumb even one time.

Roy: thanks for the explanation re Md law.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Peg
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 03:39 PM

right on Wilie-O! The new film I mentioned, Bolwing for Columbine, finds Michael Moore asking just these sorts of questions abotu Canada...namely, why is it they have the same basic number of guns per capita but a tiny murder rate compared to ours? The number of gun-caused homicide deaths in Canada compared to the US in one year: Canada had 165. USA had 11,127. (Not sure which year: 2000 I think).

Peg


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:42 PM

Peg, the raw numbers may be correct, but haven't been adjusted for relative population of 30 million vs 260 million (?)

I agree with Bobert actually about avoiding thread creep, although frankly I don't give a shit about your 2nd amendment. That's internal US politics. We have a different approach, and as LH points out, a different history. Don't cry for us, Argentina.

No argument about gun control or lack of it really speaks to the question of why is some whacko out there sniping opportunely at apparently random, but all innocent "targets", and how can he (they) be stopped?


Willie-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:43 PM

Well, you'd have to spend part of your growing-up years in Canada, and part of them in the USA...as I did...and then you would know why right away, Peg. It's basically a difference in philosophical perspective, and that is reflected on many levels, from the government right on down to the playground. Those differences are becoming more blurred, however, as the US-dominated media and entertainment systems remake Canada slowly, bit by bit, into their own image. To put it simply, taking the law into your own hands is an idea that fits far more comfortably into the American mindset than into the Canadian one.

This no doubt stems partly from the fact that America was founded upon a revolutionary war against the centralized power structure of the day (the British crown), while Canada achieved her independence from the crown through a gradual and peaceful transition. Out of those very different events grew the fundamentally different characters of these two nations.

For those who would suggest that the Queen is our monarch, and that therefore we aren't independent...you would be very wrong in that assumption. The British monarchy has the same position in Canada as Thanksgiving or Hallowe'en...it's simply an old tradition which many people are still comfortable with (and others not), but which exercises no political control over the country whatsoever.

The Queen is kind of like your great grandmother from overseas...she's an elderly relative, and you can expect to send her a card now and then on important occasions or maybe have her visit once in a long while for tea and cookies, as she has been doing for the last few days, in fact. :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 04:55 PM

Self defence with a rifle? Well "self-defence" has got a new pre-emptive edge to it these days in some places, I suppose. I think I'd be more worried about the self-defence heroes with rifles than about this killer if I was over there. There are more of them. (And Troll, I think you'll find that the death rate from guns in Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles didn't come near that in the United States at normal times.)

Here's a piece from today's Observer (which is kind of like the Guardian on Sunday, Doug)"Snipers are the greatest heroes among riflemen":

Two years ago, Charlton Heston, President of the National Rifle Association, predicted in Guns & Ammo magazine that 'someone will commit a terrible crime with a hunting rifle, and suddenly your deer rifle or benchrest gun will be demonised by the anti-gun media as a sinister "sniper rifle" capable of killing children and police from great distances'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:28 AM

Willie-O: please don't confuse us with facts. :>) Any fair minded person who hates the United States would have to agree that the difference in size of the population has nothing what-so-ever to do with the subject of crime statistics. Americans are blood thirsty killers! Well, a small percentage of the population is (oops, there I go talking percentages of a very large population).

Got your message there, Kevin, it's good to know that there is a publication other than the Guardian in Great Britian! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:03 AM

A couple of things that struck me as being odd, from the article linked in Kevin's post above were these:

"Robert Barrkman, president of Phoenix-based Robar, makers of a powerful RC-50 'counter-sniper' rifle, recently told Jane's International Defense Review that 'the proliferation of the sniper weapons is one of the few growth areas for small-arms makers'.

The Robar RC-50 is capable of piercing an armoured vehicle or a helicopter a mile away. The company has sold 20,000 of the $5,000 civilian-adapted versions."

Does this imply that there are 20,000 complete and utter pillocks over in the United States of America who somehow forsee the need to be able to shoot through an armoured vehicle or a helicopter one mile distant??

The other statement from the article, that I found rather surreal:

"Latest theories on the identity of the shooter suggest he may be someone with police or paramilitary training. According to police, however, the rounds the sniper is using are not the type favoured by professional snipers but standard bullets for popular civilian semi-automatic assault rifles."

"popular civilian semi-automatic assault rifles." - Just what the hell are they when they're at home?? Why would any normal, sane law-abiding person wish to purchase and own a semi-automatic assault rifle - what do they figure they're going to use it for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM

Well, I am sorry I read this thread. I find your remarks about weapons and bullet size especially offensive, Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:40 AM

For self defence of course Teribus -- just to be on the safe side! Funny thing, when this thread started it was about one specific 'nut with a gun'. Now look how many more have revealed themselves....

BJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:09 PM

Thank you, Bobert, and really, no worries.

I am certainly a little emotional right now, but not upset at this thread. I only wanted to give a brief perspective of someone in the midst of the issue, but for whom the media does not play a part.

In all, I am prayerfully hopeful that the end is not too far off. I am keeping to my normal routines, but with some changed methods.

It canna go on forever...let's keep good thoughts for resolution sooner than later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:14 PM

At least Charlton Heston can rejoice that the guy's rights haven't been infringed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Glade
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

Someone just mentioned that New York's Guardian Angels members went down to the Washington areas and have been pumping gas for people. If this is true, it's the sorta thing about human beings that breaks my heart. Bless them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM

I'm slow getting back to this thread. I was sick in bed yesterday and couldn't even make it through one football or baseball playoff game without falling asleep. Hows that for staying on topic :) No energy for being online.

I did make it to the 8:00 am 5K run/walk Sunday morning which was cancelled due to current events. Win another one for the sniper. The event planners cancelled because they could not assure the safety of 500 to 600 walkers who would be spread out all over the park. Three schools and two other groups pulled out thier support the day before, so staffing the walk would have been a problem. Sure wish I had gotten that phone call or email!

Bobert, Terps looked good, 7 or 8 returns from last year (please don't ask names, I'd have to look most of them up). Midnight Madness was alot of fun. The new Comcast Center is real nice.

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM

Yeah, Glade, it's true. Yep, there are a lot of loving, wonderful people in this world that just somehow don't make it onto the 11:00 news.

Bless them.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: 53
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM

I never did think that the shooter might be a terrorist. How dumb of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: YOR
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:06 PM

Reply to the original topic subject.

'Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....'

NEVER!!!    EVER!   NOT!    Doh!

And if they ever think thier even close, BITE ME!

Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:06 AM

Harpgirl, you cannot ignore the unpleasant facts of life and expect them to just go away. A knowledge of weapons and their capabilities is important whether you are for or against gun ownership.
I'm sure as hell not in favor of anthrax but I want to know as much as I can about it so I can better protect myself and my loved ones.
I'm sorry you were offended> I find a lot of the blather on some threads offensive myself. But I read it anyhow, because that's for I learn.
Re. "Seim-Automatic Assault Rifle". This is another example of media dis-information. An 'Assault" weapon has, by definition FULL-AUTO capability.
The Colt AR-15 is the civilian version of the M-16 but WITHOUT FULL-AUTO CAPABILITY. It is a semi-automatic weapon and, as such, cannot be justifiably claimed to be an assault weapon.
Of course, "assault weapon" makes better copy and that's what sells on the six-o'clock news.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists Declare Victory in D.C....
From: Troll
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:17 AM

This from Google. The operant word is SELECTIVE fire.

"An assault rifle---forget the AP Style Book definition, its
dead wrong---is a reduced power rifle caliber, selective-
fire, reasonably compact weapon smaller in size than a full-
caliber rifle, capable of a reasonable degree of accuracy
out to 400 yards. Generally, an assault rifle accepts a
magazine of a least 20 rounds. One can construe certain
full caliber rifles to meet this specification, but
submachine guns can only loosely border on any definition of
the true assault rifle. Beretta's M38A, the Hungarian 39M,
and long-barreled versions of the Finnish Suomi come very
close; at the other end of the spectrum, the U.S. Carbine
M1 and M2 come very close, but in fact fall into their own
very special category. In every case, the "pure" assault
rifles replaced or supplemented much more powerful
rifles...in U.S., M16 replaced M14, in the USSR, AK an SKS
replaced the Nagant and Tokarev in 7.62x54R M91, and so on."
This is from an article in "GUNS" magazine.

troll


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 13 May 6:08 AM EDT

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