BS: Massacre in Bali

Subject: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:18 AM

Such events are usually marked in this forum.
Nearly 200 confirmed dead already, and dozens not accounted for.
The dead and terribly injured all young tourists and back packers.
Mostly Australians, but many British and Europeans.
I'm sure the silence is not because there are no U.S., Irish, Israeli, Palestinian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:59 AM

In relation to the relative number of inhabitants of Australia and the USA, Australia mourns for a loss of life that is about as big as the loss of life in the WTC tragedy was. Those who did it attack more than just a single country.

We feel and mourn with you for all dead and injured and not only for the relatively few Germans.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:00 AM

Tragedies are tragedies. The explosion has been covered very heavily in the press over here. I would bet that in any catastrophe, it is felt hardest in the country who has lost the most people. I guess it's a case in point that the Aussie's feel this harder, because they lost more people. That doesn't mean that caring people all over the world aren't horrified by what happened. Looking at he mangled structures echoes very strongly of the World Trade Tower tragedy. I was struck more by the World Trade Tower explosions because I had a son who worked in the area, and my wife had three family members who worked there. I don't mourn the loss of life less in Bali, but I don't feel as personally affected. I think that's understandable..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Memphis Mud
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:16 AM

One innocent murdered is horrible. If 200 are murdered at the same time, that's one horrible tragedies told 200 times, not one big tragedy.

DC Sniper is not dissimilar. One moment an innocent is alive, next dead. If he ever wrote a note on a Tarot card referencing a Jihad, he would be a hero to millions.

These murderers are all the same to me. They kill a baby or a grandfather, and gloat about it. They've convinced themselves that it is good.

And those who sympathize with the murderers are just as evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:27 AM

Bali has always been one of those places I've had on my list as somewhere I'd really like to visit some time - mostly for the music, the Gamalan orchestras and the dancing. And I've known people who have gone there.

So in a way the atrocity there is as close for me as what happened on Septemnber 11. I could imagine being a tourist in Bali more easily than being in an office in the World Trade Centre, for example. At the same time it didn't unfold live on television, and involve the images of planes flying overhead past urban buildings which are a daily part of the landscape of my life, which distances it in a way.

The thing that stands out, apart from the horror, is how irrelevant this makes the obsession with Iraq on the part of our rulers. Here's a bit from today's editorial in the paper I read:

Even the Bush administration will find it a stretch to blame Bali on Saddam Hussein. More worryingly still, by inflaming opinion in the Muslim world and beyond, war may disrupt anti-terror efforts, weaken or destroy the international coalition and act as a persuasive recruiting sergeant for al-Qaida, raising the prospect of yet more murders of innocents.

If Bali tells us anything, it is that the defeat of stateless, international terrorism is the most pressing security issue of the day. It is far too important to be misdirected or diverted for dubious, divisive reasons by one country against another.

(And I think the trolling point made by the "GUEST" who started this, implicitly implying that Americans don't care about deaths in other countries should be ignored.)

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: C-flat
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:42 AM

I wonder if Australia will be considering it's position on supporting Bush. Until now Howard has been a close political soulmate of the Bush administration. Will this event push Australia back to the periphery of international politics or re-enforce its stance?
After the shock and greiving is over I'm sure they will have some difficult questions to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 08:45 AM

Our National Radio dropped all it's ordinary programs on 11th September & I listened for hours to news broadcasts & calls from Australians with friends or family in New York, and Australians who knew no-one there. The caller who most affected me was the American-Australian who had recently visited his brother in NY & met his colleagues in Tower B. He rang his brother & learnt he was not at work that day, but the second plane hit as he was talking to one of these people he had met several weeks before. I've always wondered what happened to these people.

Today my colleague said one of her friends died in Bali & another is missing, and another colleague's said his friend's 21 year old daughter was in the street when the bombs exploded & had to walk through the debris & bodies to safety. She is on her way home - physically unhurt, but mentaly a mess.

At the moment I'm listening to "This Land is your Land - Songs of Freedom", Vanguard 2002), which I bought today & Judy Collin's version of 'Turn, Turn, Turn' is a lovely background to thoughts on the current world situation.

This has taken so long to write that my internet connection has gone, but it has been hard to know what I wanted to say. Maybe it's a bit incoherent, but I've never found it easy to express myself, (chatting is so easy)

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 09:34 AM

It's a bloody shame that it matters where the people were from. The terrorists weren't upset about killing Indonesians, either. That's one of the things that make them terrorists, instead of the soldiers they claim to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:08 AM

First and formost, at a time like this. we all owe it to the victims including surviving family memebrs and friends, our thoughts and prayers. This is not a time to point fingers or exploit and cheapen these folks lives in the name of politics...

But in the coming days, as mankind tries to get by yet another tragedy, I would hope that we earthlings collectively look at a world where so many folks feel left out and have become so hardened and filled with hate that they would even let such evil thoughts creep into their minds, let alone carry them out...

My deepest sympathies to the families this day.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: sed
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:14 AM

These were night clubs. Did they have live music? Any word on what was being played and who the musicians might have been? No one is immune.....

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:24 AM

Think it time for "global civilians" to just vote with their tourist dollar and outright "boycott" traveling to these Islamist-harboring nations and leave thgem to themselves. To hell with them.

Besides every tourist is a potential hostage. Do your repsective home country a favor and don't go where you're not welcome as an "infidel westerner" anyway.

Anothetr question: Does this latest atrocity mean that Aussies
shpuld commence bomobing Indonesian "Islamist extremist " targets in retaliation?

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:25 AM

Jesus Goddamn Christ!!! Two thousand lives -- and these weren't armed people or even stockbrokers and lawyers. They were kids on vacation.

The Indonesian government has rapidly asserted that this was clear evidence that al-Qaeda is alive and functioning in Indonesia.

I await the US Government's armed response with bated breath.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 11:43 AM

It was not a coincidence that Islamic terrorists targeted a resort which they knew would be filled with Australians. Australians must accept their culpability for this act as a natural reaction to their treatment of Muslim immigrants.

Clearly, Western hegemonic civilization is the modern Babylon, and these are the waning days of Babylon. North Americans, Europeans, Australians and Israelis should prepare now. Time is running out.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Alice
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 11:54 AM

Terrible, horrific, anguish. Peace to all. Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 11:58 AM

Correction: nowhere near two thousand. More like three hundred, all told, I guess. Musta been half asleep.

The issue of the US Government's resposne is still of great interest. Let's just say that if such a toll had been wrought by an Iraqi terrorist, we would be in the sands rolling for Baghdad this morning.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:10 PM

My brother lives and works close to where the bomb went off. I haven't heard much from him just a hurried e mail to let us know that apart from slight deafness from the blast he and his partner are OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 12:12 PM

Stoopid how a tragedy in Bali is used as an attempt by some to make an Anti-American statement. As Stoopid as Bush using it to claim moral justification for attacking Irag. Stoopid is stoopid.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:06 PM

"Think it time for 'global civilians' to just vote with their tourist dollars and outright 'boycott' traveling to these Islamist-harboring nations and leave them to themselves." (Taliesn).

Bali, while part of a country with a Muslim majority, has a Hindu population. The same thing could as easily happen in any resort in any country, including especially perhaps the USA.

And I suggest people ignore that trollling GUEST (or trolling GUESTS). (I know I've taken notice of it here, which is a bad thing to do, but the important thing is try never to respond to what they may actually say..)

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM

OK, Kevin - per your above, I'm modifying what I was about to say and deleting the verbatim quote. BUT I'm still going to say this, generically: Blaming the Victim is a fine old Rapist tactic. "Aaah she was askin' for it." Right.

All terrorism must cease God damn it. Terrorism by us rich, and terrorism by the poor. Period. I don't usually get Mad, but I am today. Accordingly, re current events there, I'm putting up another Northern Ireland thread (unless a news one's already up, haven't scanned yet). But if I do, the intro will anticipate your rational calming perspective-laden postings, Mr. McG. / But I gotta get this off my chest.

Peace Pooka (with apologies to Mooh)

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:26 PM

I agree with Kevin and Pookah (being an agreeable sort a guy.) I don't want to rise to the bait with trolling guests, but at the same time, if no one ever says anything, and lets the trolls have their say, I don't like that either. I think that it's good to say what you believe once... just don't get drawn into endless back-and-forth stuff.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM

This is, as yet, no proof whatsoever that al-Qaeda were responsible, or even involved.

Please stop jumping to conclusions.

Whoever did it, it is certainly a horrible thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM

I'm glad my niece and her daughter were already home from Bali.That's all I can think of right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:52 PM

I'm hoping that one good thing to come out of this horrible event might be to focus attention back on the real threat, instead of planning adventures up the Persian Gulf.

The idea that big tough dramatic responses are the way to deal with this type of atrocity is crazy really. There isn't a suitable target for that kind of thing, and thinking in those terms just ends up looking for a target to fit the available weaponry. As if the British Government had tried to stop the IRA bombing campaigns by invading the 26 Counties. The expression "war on terrorism" had better never been coined by some PR hack in the depths of the White House.

It has to be patient detailed work, together with efforts to root out all the things which feed into the hate that underlies this kind of atrocity. And there needs to be a clear and sustained rejection of the idea that trying to examine the roots of such events is the same as "justifying" them.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Alice
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:52 PM

Actually, Indonesia itself has connected the blasts to Al Qaeda. The Defense Minister of Indonesia made a statement that investigations have convinced him that it is domestic terrorists linked to the Al Qaeda network who are responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Alice
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 02:58 PM

The news of the Al Qaeda link was from a Reuters report.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM

Truly a tragedy in Bali this weekend. So much needless, senseless death.

I'm afraid any terrorists attacks by radical Muslims are going to be called "Al Qaida" right now, even if they aren't associated. There are more dangerous groups out there than just Al Qaida -- I think focusing too much attention on one particular group could hand the others a get-out-of-jail-free card because they can continue to operate while Al Qaida takes the brunt of the retaliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM

No point in getting hung up on labels, or thinking in terms of some James Bond operation, with Mr Big in a fancy headquarters somewhere, and if it can be found an destroyed everything can get back to normal.

Here's a quote that makes a lot of sense to me, from an article by Richard Norton-Taylor (in today's Guardian).

"Al-Qaida is not a traditional terrorist organisation with a disciplined hierarchy like the IRA. It is used, misleadingly, as shorthand for any Islamist extremist group.

"It is more like a movement, almost amoeba-like, with varying degrees of support and contacts with other groups throughout much of the Muslim world, including Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, Indonesia, and elsewhere in the Gulf, including Saudi Arabia. But not among Palestinians, a generally secular people; and certainly not in Baghdad, home of the most secular country in the Middle East, Israel included."

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 04:17 PM

The quote that "makes a lot of sense" to McGrath of Harlow states that Al-Qaida has "varying degrees of support...throughout the Muslim world...but not among Palestinians."

Not among Palestinians? On September 11, 2001 we watched the footage of parties and celebrations in Palestinian streets. We have seen the Palestinain Muslim fundamentalists of Hamas find common cause with Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaida as they send teenagers into Israel to commit suicide murders. Hamas enjoys widespread support among Palestinians and its leaders have acknowledged Hamas' support for Al-Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 05:44 PM

The expression "war on terrorism" had better never been coined by some PR hack in the depths of the White House.

I don't know, Kevin- I think it's an example of demented genius and prophetic as well: It will turn out to be as much of a farce as the U.S. "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty" and all the other "Wars" the government declares from time to time to avoid actually having to deal with nasty problems in any meaningful way.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: wilco
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 06:08 PM

An obsevation from the USA. It appears that the goal of Al_quida is to gradually pull many other nations into a "holy war." The real danger here is that we don't let it turn into a larger religious war, which is the goal of these people. I hope that we remmber that.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM

There's such a thing as being too clever by half. But I agree Bobert -"demented", meaning mindless.

Maybe it was the same guy who suggested Bush started going on about "a crusade". Bin Laden's scriptwriter inside the White House.

Chopping off heads doesn't work when you're Hercules facing the Hydra, and every time you cut off a head you get several more. Something much more imaginative is needed.

Part of the background here, once again, seems to be the legacy of the cold-war encouragement of anti-left movements of one sort or another, which have turned out to be the seed-bed of this kind of terrorism. The attitude "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" lies at the root of an enormous amount of the things that have gone wrong in the world over the years, and it is active and still poisoning the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 07:11 PM

The Radical Islamic Terrorists (according to their own pronouncements as far as we can
    translate them) feel that the only good infidel is a dead infidel. Only by such
    reasoning can they justify the random murder of non-combatants. They
    killed a whole lot of people who were not at war at the World Trade Center.
    This seems to have earned them Brownie points. By examination we may
    conclude that a good Moslem earns one point for killing another Moslem of
    a different sect, two points for killing a European Christian, three points for
    killing an American, and four points for killing a Jew. It is not clear how many points can be allocated to other nationalities. Perhaps an Arabic speaking person could enlighten us?

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Oct 02 - 10:04 PM

Dear trolling guest,

Other than your sheer rudeness, you ignorance the issue is remarkable. Bin Laden justified the death of non-combatants by not recognizing non-combatants in NYC. I.E., if one paid taxes to the US, you were financially supporting troops in Saudi Arabia, military aid to Israel, etc., and therefore were not a non-combatant. Under this philiosophy, this includes other Muslims, and doesn't include non-Muslims that leave the Middle East the hell alone (which, I think, is almost none of them.)

This is not just about "killing an infidel," and over-simplifying a complex issue does no good in solving it. The Gordian solution rarely works.

Nor is this an Arabic philioposhy -- it's a western one. And an eastern one. And in practically every war ever fought. It was perhaps never so blatant until the middle ages, when the practice of chevisiche (somebody correct my French spelling, please?) was the deliberate removal of support and tax income from a rival government but slaughtering the populace and burning the fields. Sometimes, burning your own fields.

Then there was the fire-bombing of Dresden, or Hiroshima, or the tanks that demolish houses inthe Gaza Strip, or any number of acts of war vaguely justified but in reality all about removing infrastructure and support from the war effort.

Since the Geneva Convention, of course, everyone likes to pretend they aren't guilty of it, but as of 10 years ago, it was still being debated and discusses as military strategy in the nation's top war academy, West Point, and no doubt it's debated still -- because it works. It's cruel and inhumane, but it still works.

Pretending that this is an Arabic problem, or a Muslim problem or an Islamic philiosophy is anthropocentric and ignores that the slaughter of non-combatants is an issue that ALL countries need to deal with. Or didn't you count the number of non-combatant Afghani's that died of US bombs or the number of Vietnamese villagers that died of US land mines last year?

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 04:48 AM

Burn them and throw a big rock on them.
That's the more imaginative method Hercules and his friend Iolaus used with the Hydra. You didn't want to recommend a greater level of force/violence, did you, McGrath?

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:01 AM

On the serious side, this is by far not the first attack on tourists in the Islamic world.
1997: about 60 killed in Luxor (Egypt)
2001: suicide fire-bomber waits until German tourist group enters synagogue in Djerba (Tunesia) and kills more than a dozen.

But not only the tourists are targets, they only get more press coverage over here.
3.1.1998: 413 killed by islamic fundamentalists in a night long massacre in three villages in the west of Algeria.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Troll
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:27 AM

I'm quite sure that it won't be long before someone finds a way to blame the whole thing on America and the Bush Administration in particular.
Kevin and Greg, since you don't seem to like the "War On Terror" et.al., perhaps you could come up with a better phrase to describe what the Government is trying to do. Note that I said "trying" since no one can ever predict the success or failure of an enterprise.
There was also a bombing in Helsinki but I've seen nothing about it here. THEY ONLY LOST 7 OR 8 people. I guess that isn't enough to inspire the righteous indignation of the Forum.
So tell me, what's the cut-off point? How many have to die before it's worthy of a thread?


troll

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 05:35 AM

"Guest" wrote: "Australians must accept their culpability for this act as a natural reaction to their treatment of Muslim immigrants."

I'm glad to see that blaming the victim is still alive and well among the stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:21 AM

"What the Government is trying to do" - that's the kind of question thta has too many answers, some of them, very cynical. "What needs to be done?" is a better question. "Getting rid of terrorism and the causes of terrorism" is as good a way as any of putting it. Calling it a "war" is just a confusing metaphor, as it is with "poverty" or "crime" or "drugs or "sin".

(""Guest" wrote:" - no such person.)

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 07:27 AM

You're right there Wolfgang - it isn't just westerners and tourusts- and it isn't just Al Qaida and Muslim fundamentalists:

Rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army killed 52 people in an attack on a village in northern Uganda, in their worst raid in months, an army spokesman said.

The government has sent tanks, artillery and 14,000 soldiers to the north to end the revolt by the rebels, who want to rule Uganda by the Ten Commandments.> Reuters, Kampala

The killers here would have been "Christian" in the same sense that Al Qaida are "Muslim."

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:27 AM

Terrorist do not care who they kill,the victims were of different nationalities including Indonesians, they want to terrorise people to get their way. If this is the method used to gain power what methods will be employed to maintain it?

If we look at the Omagh bombing as an example,tourists, people from both sides of the border, unborn babies, children women and men murdered in the most cowardly way possible by terrorists, who claim it is for the cause of a united Ireland.

No matter what cause an act of terrorism is used for it should be condemned outright and not rewarded or supported, if it is, it gives credence to other groups who decided to terrorise others round to their way of thinking.

The Hydra analogy is right all we are doing is giving clearance for the next more vicious head to grow, to kill the problem cut off its support, moral and politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 02 - 09:47 AM

Extremely well put Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 07:44 AM

Interesting interview last night on BBC news with Islamic scholar Abu Bakar Ba'asyir. He is the alleged leader of the radical Islamic group Jemaah Islamiah, suspected of having links to Al-Qaeda. In his interview he gave his opinion that America was responsible for the Bali Bomb - said it with a straight face too.

He believes that Osama Bin Laden is a true Islamic warrior and supports Bin Laden's struggle because his is the true struggle to uphold Islam, not terror. He firmly believes that the terrorists are the Americans and Israelis. Having said this he denies any link between Al-Qaeda and any group in Indonesia, meanwhile members of Jemaah Islamiah have been arrested in Malaysia where links between the two groups are substantial.

In the wake of the bombing another radical Islamic group, the largest, calling itself Laskar Jihad has disbanded:

"No official reason has been given for the disbandment of the organisation, which is blamed for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people.

But one member has been quoted as saying a religious figure in Saudi Arabia had decreed the holy war was over, in the Moluccan islands at least."

Sounds like this religious figure in Saudi Arabia should do a bit more talking, to a far wider congregation. Abu Bakar Ba'asyir should also be removed from a position in which he can poison the minds of the young with the absolute drivel that he sincerely believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 09:10 AM

People like that are the reason why I believe terrorists in our own countries should be tackled first, before we run of to Iraq and leave the real threat at home. Chase them out and then follow them to their stronghold.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:28 PM

I heard on National Public Radio this morning that the Austrailian government is getting some flack from the population because the U. S. government had warned them that several Indonesian countries were ripe for terrorist attacks, and the government did not warn it's citizens. Bali was one of those countries where terrorist acts appeared to be likely. The government was given high marks, however, for taking such swift action in returning its wounded citizens to Austrialia where better medical facilities are available.

Australia has suffered a great loss. Most of those killed and injured were young people. My sympathy goes out to the people of Australia, and to all countries that lost citizens in this senseless slaughter.

Terrorists must be eleminated wherever they are found. I do not believe they can be reasoned with. The only thing they respect is a show of force, and kowtowing to them, as so many on this forum seem to believe to be a better course will just cause more deaths. No country is immune to similar attacks, and the terrorist attack by the sniper in the Maryland/D.C./Virginia area shows that no one is completely safe.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:35 PM

"...kowtowing to them, as so many on this forum seem to believe to be a better course"

Examples? I don't say there aren't any. bvecause thetre arer a lot oif posts on alot of threads, but I haven't read or written anything that I think can fairly be described in those terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Ireland
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:51 PM

It also shows Doug that when some people support a terrorists cause it encourages other terrorists in the hope that they will get the same support and understanding.

Plans to pack a bike with explosives was found in Afghanistan which led to the arrest of terrorists in Singapore,this was a tactic that the IRA used in the past, it shows that terrorists are linked at one point or other,they get inspiration and comfort from each others actions. Brothers in arms type thing, they should get no support or understanding from anyone.

With regards to the sniper, in Newry the sign "Sniper at work" is on a lamp post and people wonder why some complain about terrorists having weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

Hmmm. I heard on NPR this morning that the Bush administration had warned Indonesia of a possible unspecified attack the DAY BEFORE the bombing. Of course, they may have been multiple warnings.

I'm disappointed about the level of finger-pointing -- and maybe it's more media than anything else. I mean, the US didn't do anything about the warnings about 9/11 because (so it's said) they really weren't specific enough, so to fret about how Indonesia didn't take action about a warning about a possible terrorist attack, somewhere in Indonesia, sometime in the future seems... unrealistic.

After all, we all know how effective the new terrorism alert system is in the US :)

Or at least the message coming through the media here is "we told you so," and that seems inappropriate right now. If I'm not mistaken, we already have anti-terrorist troops in Indonesia (for training purposes), wouldn't offers of more help be more appropriate? Haven't heard a whiff of that in the news here, anyway, but I hope the offer has been made.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:18 PM

Your argument, if directed to me, Nicole, is misplaced. I only reported what I heard. Nothing more. However, if you were quoting from my post, you should do so properly. If you re-read it, you will find that nowhere did I say "the day before." I don't believe the report I heard mentioned WHEN the notification was made.

First we kill the lawyers (messengers).

Just curious, Nicole. Did you major in cynicism in college? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM

McGrath: if you prefer the word "appease" to "kowtow," I'll agree to that.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 05:24 PM

Uh, Doug, sorry, but I wasn't directing a post at you. I know you've come to expect that :)

Just reporting what *I* heard as a related item, and we could very well both be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:02 PM

There's a world of difference between trying to find ways of preventing decent people getting twisted into becoming terrorists and cosying up to the people who carry out and plan atrocities like September 11th and October 12th.

Yes and there are situations where making peace means finding ways for people to turn away from involvement in activities which can quite properly be described as terrorism, and South Africa and Northern Ireland are obvious examples. And I doubt very much if Doug would see letting the convicted terrorist Nelson Mandela out of jail and negotiating with him was a bad idea.

Urging people not to go throwing lighted matches around in the vicinity of a keg of powder is not the same as giving aid and comfort to someone who wants to use that keg of powder to blow up the House of Commons (to use a comparison that comes readily to mind at this time of year if you live in England, with the kids collecting for Bonfire Night with their stuffed Guys outside the supermarkets).

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: NicoleC
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM

Nicely said, Kevin. Any plan to wipe out terrorism that doesn't include a healthy dose of preventing new terrorists from springing up is doomed to failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 06:20 PM

Halló all , I am angry about this matter, what did muslim say if we
just blow away many thousand of them when they are in mekka????
I think they would be very angry, my feeling is that they are
hunting us western people down and kill as many of us as they can
and this is just a beginning of much more to come , sorry but that´s
my feeling , so what´s to do about this ????? In our bible it
says you shall not kill, or I think it does sorry about my memory
but when we get angry we do and say things that we coult (regreds)
later on.
I am not saying that all muslim people are bad that´s a long way
, but those few are making it harder for every body else.
What do we have to do to stop this??? offer them the other side?
or do we do the same thing and go into muslim countrys or......????
I want and i am living in peace here In Iceland and I whant people on the hole planet to live in peace and I belive in peace but...
arggggggggggg, when this happens again and again dammmmmm.

What can we do , can you all think of something?
I know there are in other countrys terrorist like in N-Ireland,
spain and in africa but we , the world have to do something to stop this and that is gonna a hard work to do .
well I said enough at the moment and I know that many of you do not
agree with me but that´s okei I respect that.
i have to go to sleep I am up again after 5 hour´s.
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 05:45 AM

I'm just wondering what would have happened if the same number of people were killed in the tragedy, but they were all Indonesian. My instinct is that it would have been big news for a day but then would have been filed with the other "local trouble" in the world even if it was ascribed to the same group that seems to be the front runner now.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:50 AM

Your instinct is correct, Bagpuss, but why should that be surprising?

A train accident in Britain gets less coverage over here than a train accident in Germany, irrespective of the number of dead.
The same number of dead in unrelated incidents get less coverage than in one incident or in related incidents.
The same number of dead in what is perceived unavoidable gets less coverage than when it is perceived avoidable and so on.

Our reaction to deaths is influenced by closeness (physical and emotional), by our ability to picture ourselves in that situation (easier to picture being a tourist in Indonesia than being an Indonesian), by amount of violence (the more violent the more we want to read about it), by age of the dead and....

A musician I once played with had to learn it the hard way in his day job (actually night job in that instance) as a young journalist: He had the night watch and was the one who had to decide whether to stop the printing of the newspaper when a news flash came in or not. Some decisions are easy, like an American president shot at (YES!) or a dog of the queen missing (NO).

So on one of his first night watches he stopped the newspaper for a plane had crashed in South America with about 150 dead. Big Boss told him next day never to do that again, but when a private plane with two passengers crashes into the lake of Constance (Constance was where the newspaper was printed) he'd better react quickly.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Oct 02 - 06:57 AM

I seem to remember that the original proposed title of the comedy series "Drop the Dead Donkey" was "Dead Belgians Don't Count".

I guess I'm not surprised, just dismayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 04:13 AM

Hi Ireland,

Bicyle Bombs, were first used in Malaya, so a link from Afghanistan to Singapore is not all that surprising. The counter-measure in Malaya was bicylcle parks - anyone coming into a town or village had to stay with their bicylce for a time - as the fuses used in those days were chemical activated detonators (pretty unreliable wrt time) the guys with the bombs used to get extremely agitated and very easy to spot. They gave up using them in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 06:25 AM

G'day all,

The latest here ... and it follows on from what (non-gov't) Indonesian commentators have been saying since day one ... is that the bomb was the work of a disaffected Indoneisian Army officer ... possibly one dismissed or sidelined over the East Timor atrocities (and blaming Australia for much of that).

The 'signatures' of explosives indicate a very "western" Army cocktail ... PE, TNT - and loads of old napalm containers to make sure it would horribly injure. As well, there was a preliminary "decoy" blast that made sure a lot of people were exposed in the main blast area ... straight out of the textbook (OK ... all the textbooks, but most with CIA down in the corner ... such as the El Quaeda use - a legacy of the last US presence in Afghanistan).

Ruefully,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Massacre in Bali
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 06:59 AM

I think the first bicycle bombs would probably have been in the French Resistance.