Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: GUEST,Gibb
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:39 PM

Hi Azizi,

You wrote:

"But this thought made me wonder about the name "Josey" as a personal name for a man as found in that old dance song. In particular, I thought of how a non-Spanish speaking person might pronouce tghe name "Jose" as "Joe-see". Given that some crews came from the Caribbean, has the Spanish language influence on chantey songs-and on other African American/Black Caribbean dance songs been identified?"

The thing about chanteys if that, more often than not, their lyrics have nothing to do with the sea! In this case, I see no reason to search for a sea origin of "Josie" since we already have the (hypothesized) pre-chantey origin: "Jim Along Josey." Trying not to exaggerate too much, it seems like half the chanteys were made this way, taking stock, catchy, rhythmic phrases from pop tunes of the day, play songs, older work songs, folk rhymes, and jusr adapting them. To respond to your question though, I don't know of any significant influence of Spanish language on chanteys. As far as a Spanish influence on Black Caribbean dance songs, that is a pretty huge topic, but I think the answer is yes...with qualification. One would have to say where they are drawing lines at "Spanish." Much of the Caribbean dance music shares a common rhythmic sensibility. Stuff you might associate as "Cuban" (and therefore Spanish?) is shared with Jamaican music, for example. The burning question is, why are they similar? Is it because they share a common sensibility back from African music, or is it more recent cross-pollination? Anyways...

Back on topic...kinda....if Jim Along Josie and Haul Away Joe are relatives, that adds some pretty strong irony to our present conundrum. In this light, the use of "Haul Away Joe" on the slave ship in "Roots" is pretty absurd. And due to the Clancy Brothers' schtick, people strongly associate the chantey with the Irish (that's not to say chanteys can't have multiple associations/resonances, and Irish sailors did sing it) -- when I was searching for a thread for "Haul Away Joe," I came across one post where the person said he couldn't stand to hear that chantey sung with an American accent!

Gibb

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:49 PM

Hi Gibb-- great stuff and YES, it is always fine (some would say best) to add to the existing threads rather than start a new one if possible. Feel free any time! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 12:59 AM

Thanks for your response, Gibb.

I appreciate learning that information about shanteys.

I often wondered why "Haul Away, Joe" was used in Roots as opposed to some other song. I suppose it was used because it was already relatively well known, though I wonder how many people knew that it was a shanty. When I watched Roots, I didn't know that term-actually I knew it in the context of huts but didn't know it in the context of songs. :o)

It's good to learn something new.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: GUEST,Gibb
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 10:15 AM

Azizi,

My ~guess~ as to why they would have used "Haul Away Joe" in Roots:

It was set pre-1776. However, we don't have any evidence to exactly what chanteys might have been sung prior to the 19th century. We know there was some kind of chanteying, but it is all conjecture which of the songs (i.e. the ones known to us today) would have been used, if at all. One of the popular ones to conjecture existed back then is "Haul on the Bowline." That one has similarities to "Haul Away Joe." So my guess is that, pressed to speculate on what may have existed, they chose those two.

Gibb

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 06:22 AM

Hi, Gibbs,

Thanks for that info.

With regard to the song "Haul Away, Joe", you and others may be interested in checking out these links to other Mudcat threads and to the DT song:

"Haul Away, Joe"-Digital Tradition version

Black Jacks: History & Shanties
Lyr Req: leadbelly's haul away joe

Other related threads are listed about this song, including bawdy versions.

None of this should be interpreted to mean that your comment about the example of "Haul Away Joe" that includes the name "Josie" isn't appropriate for this thread. It definitely is.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Btw, Gibbs, so when are you going to join Mudcat? Membership is free and easy to do. Just click on the feature near the top right hand corner, and your almost there. I started to say "and Bob's your uncle", a phrase I must have picked up from some Mudcatters cause I've never heard anybody in "real life" say it :o)

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 11:01 AM

Hello, Guest 05 Mar 09 - 10:15 AM.

I like the idea of enclosing "coon song" in inverted commas* when using that phrase in modern writings.

*Is 'inverted commas' what the British call 'quotation marks?. I hadn't heard that term before. I consider learning "real" usages of British English (or should I say UK English? and Australian English etc) is another benefit of this international discussion forum.

-snip-

You wrote that "On the question of blacking bottles, I hope I am not stating the painfully obvious if I say that for most of the nineteenth century boot and stove blacking came in bottles."

That wasn't obvious to me, as I had no clue how these products were packaged.

Thanks!

**

Somewhat off-topic...Okay really off-topic :o)

Earlier this morning (when my cold medicine stopped working and I decided to visit Mudcat while I was waiting for it to kick in again), I wrote a comment about "Shine", the central character in a number of African American adult toasts (narrative rap like poems). The nickname "Shine" is somewhat relevant to "boot blackening" as the name probably refers to the main character's black skin being so dark that it shined like bootblack (what we in the USA nowadays call black shoe polish). It seems to me that using the name "Shine" was probably an example of Black folks taking the sting out of what may have been started by us (or by non-Black people) as a racial putdown.
By using the name "Shine" for the street hero, was/is another way of saying "We're Black and we're proud" or at least "We're Black and we're bad" (with "bad" here meaning "very good").

**

Here's a link to one of at least two Mudcat links that mention "Shine" and those toasts.

It just occurred to me that maybe the word "toast" is used in the sense of "giving a tribute to someone or something". These toasts certainly gave props (the proper respect, compliments) to "Shine".

Who is this "Shine" Guy?

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 11:06 AM

I could blame my cold medicine for my typographical errors, but actually it happens when I'm not taking medicine too..

I'm sorry about that. Hopefully, you can get my drift (what I was trying to say) inspite of the errors that I don't have the energy to fix though I see them staring at me.

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 04:44 AM

Azizi

You were replying to a guest message which seems since to have been wiped from the record, presumably because my cookie had crumbled.

For the record, I had questioned what might be done about the offensive term 'Coon song', which historians of popular song are quite unable to avoid. I suggested putting it in inverted commas to indicate that the writer is aware of and not intending to perpetuate the insult. I'm glad you agree.

And I have to admit that my use of 'inverted commas' would be regarded as a bit English-teachery, even in England. 'In quotes' is the common usage today, but I am a bit of a relic, having only recently mastered the technology of the retractable ball-point pen.

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

Oh, you British!

I like the way you use English.

Is "my cookie had crumbled" another quaint English-teachery saying?

:o)

Just kidding.

And to the Mudcat moderator who deleted your message despite its legitimate content, I say :o(

Subject: RE: Origin: Jim Along Josey / Jim Along Josie
From: GUEST,IvanB
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:45 PM