Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Felipa
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 02:18 PM

Yes, RJM; see messages posted in 2008-09 for discussion of Arthur Hagg

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 01:14 PM

The song was written by Arthur Hagg.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 02:09 PM

that verse is also in a Lucky Luckhurst song 'Just Six Months'- from a cassette by this wonderful Cockney music hall singer. Lucky lived in Swindon in later years & was highly respected- John Foreman used to refer to him as the 'guvnor'!!

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: The Doctor
Date: 06 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM

There is a very short song I also sing to this tune:

Well, a mate of mine once said to me,
'Will you wake me up at half past three?'
And so, promptly at half past one
I rapped on his window and I said,'Oh, John,
I've just come round to tell you,
I've just come round to tell you,
I've just come round to tell you
You've got two more hours to sleep.'

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Felipa
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM

Incidentally, the tune is common and used for a couple of children's songs and games. In a 2015 message, Amy Creech gave a link to the Seagreen Singers; they gave another name "Stand and Face Your Lover" The link Amy used isn't working for me, but I looked at this webpage: https://www.seagreensingers.com/music/WilliamBrownV1-5.htm

I didn't recognise the name "Stand and face your lover", but it's the singing game "In and out the windows" which has already been mentioned. George Formby used the lines and tune for the intro and ending of "Let's All Go to Reno", and also intersperses "Have you seen the dairyman" (aka Have you seen the muffin man" and London Bridge is Falling Down.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Felipa
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 07:18 AM

I sung William Brown at a Mudcat online sing, Joe Offer sang it at the virtual Getaway this weekend past. There was some discussion re Stan Kelly as putative author. This thread gives strong evidence in support of the attribution to Arthur Hagg. See Celia's very personal post on 11 Apr 2013 and also Roughyed and Malcolm Douglas both 25 Jan 2009.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 10:45 AM

I'd guess the Northern location simply reflects the fact that when the song was written, most manufacturing was Northern-based.

There's also an excellent translation of the song into Dutch - called "Jan Content" - written by Alfred den Ouden, who founded the Dranouter Folk Festival and is still singing and music-making in Belgium.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:29 PM

I also heard this first by Bob Davenport around the same time at the Fo'c'sle club Southampton. I still include it in my song book. (i can't spell repertoire)

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 07:23 AM

Bob Davenport and the Rakes used to do this regularly- first time I heard them do it was at Derek Sergeant's(Sarjeant?) club at the Surbiton Assembly Rooms in late 1963

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Amy Creech
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:30 PM

Hi, was looking for the words to this as my dad used to sing it to me when I was a kid. Great to find this discussion.

These are the lyrics he used to sing (except he only did verses 1, 4 and 6 - maybe that was because it was a bedtime song (no opportunities lost for political education in my house!!

http://sgs.lpi.org.uk/seagreensingers/music/WilliamBrown.htm

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 04:40 PM

But close enough to be a possible ancestor all the same.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:28 PM

BTW, Steve ~~ you mention Jimmy Crack Corn above; that is surely a distantly related but distinct tune?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:18 PM

The tune is also used for the Flamborough Sword dance along with that other minstrel tune 'Buffalo Gals'. Presumably they were both adopted some time after the 1840s when these tunes first became popular on both sides of the Atlantic. Both tunes have various sets of words in the village. Yorkshire Longsword is in some traditions associated with blacking up and this may have related in some way to the adoption of various minstrel songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:17 PM

...and also for many of the "So early in the morning" chorus songs -- e.g.The Clancy Bros "When I was young I had no sense", which shares lyrics with the "Tom the Piper's son" version of "Over the hills and far away", but uses this tune.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:31 PM

Don't know any earlier versions; but perhaps worth mentioning that the tune has been much used for what Bert used to call 'disobliging' songs. One that springs to mind is that of 'Mary lived in a mountain glen, Seduced herself with a fountain pen; The bladder broke, the ink ran wild, And she found herself with a blue-black child; [cho] They called the bastard Stephen [x3], For that was the name of the ink'; to which some would-be wit would invariably add as a sort of parenthesis, "Not Quink!".

~M~

I don't suppose that Quink or Stephens' Blue-Black Ink are even to be found in stationery shops any more, are they? Alas!

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:34 PM

Just for the sake of completeness and as no-one has mentioned the tune on this thread, it is of course that ubiquitous piece 'In and out the windows' used for many children's singing games and a variety of short traditional ditties. Can anyone point to earlier versions of the tune than the minstrel song 'So early in the morning'/'Jimmy crack corn'? Surely it predates this.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 04:30 PM

The version in the DT is set in London, but the song scans better with a midlands or northern accent which rhymes 'go' with 'goo.'

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Celia
Date: 11 Apr 13 - 01:28 PM

Song was written Arthur T Hagg, artist and illustrator; he exhibited at the Royal Academy. He was friends with my grandparents who were fellow early socialists. My mother knew him well as a girl, and as a child stayed with him and his partner Cecily Cook (Secretary of the Womens Institute); Cecily was her godmother. He taught my mother to paint so she had something to do when she went cycling with him on his many sketching/painting trips. I have seen a painting by him on the internet. I believe he was a socialist and I can confirm that he was imprisoned during the first world war as a conscientious objector. My mother tells me that in prison he helped to write/illustrate a prison newsletter. She also told me that he was imprisoned with Fenner Brockway the MP and later member of the House of Lords; Baron Brockway as he became was a fellow conscientious objector. Arthur wrote several letters to my mother when she was a child; they are very funny and full of his beautiful humorous cartoon/sketches. She remembers him as a very gentle and peaceful man. Arthur was born in 1895 and died 1962.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Tim Garland
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 01:01 PM

Indeed it was! We used the song as our 'finale'when gigging around Britain in the 80s and 90s. I first learnt it during my youth in the woodcraft folk in London. It a great song and timeless. Our version was sung in a slightly more 'energetic' format than the usual 'so early in the morning' style.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:49 PM

the Folk bunch residents of Dartford folk club, sang this song in the seventies.OR MAYBE sSkinners rats or the cray folk, but definitely the Folkbunch.
I am sure fieldwork did not exist in the seventies they were a late eighties group

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM

Gavin,
Could it have been Fieldwork the Nottingham group - now disbanded?

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST, william Fagan Dublin
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 03:20 PM

I heard this song in the 50s

Subject: Lyr Add: Keep That Wheel A Turnin' - William Bro
From: MickyMan
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:58 PM

There are several versions of this on Mudcat ...
   I never quite absorbed the original song but I heard it somewhere and fell in love with the chorus and first verse, so much so that they kept going round in my head. I also recalled hearing the phrase .... "the boss man said "young what's your name" but I didn't have anything else (pre Mudcat days). So here's what I dreamed up to fill in the gaps, and I must say that I'm kind of proud of it. It's a little more positive than the original, in fact my friend says that I've turned poor William into a 'capitalist pig". I prefer to think of him as a bit of a lovestruck entrepeneur. Oh well, it has found its way into my world in this form and I thought I'd share it with you all ... Long live the folk process!

Keep That Wheel A-Turnin' [William Brown]
(with added words by Michael Carbonneau - CT/USA

A bright young man was William Brown,
He worked for a wage in a Northern town

He turned the wheel from left to right,
From eight in the morning 'till six at night


Keep that wheel a-turnin' Keep that wheel a-turnin'
Keep that wheel a-turnin' … and do a little more each day

Bill had his eye on Lucy May,
   Who kept up the books each Saturday,
They met in the pub and danced in the town,
   Until her name was Lucy Brown

Keep that wheel a-turnin' Keep that wheel a-turnin'
Keep that wheel a-turnin' … and do a little more each day

One afternoon when tea break came,
The boss man says "young what's your name",
A pension just might come your way,
   If you stay here 'till your dying day

Keep that wheel a-turnin' Keep that wheel a-turnin'
Keep that wheel a-turnin' … and do a little more each day

Now William's shop is all his own,
   And Lucy keeps the books from home,
And every week when he hands out the bob,
   He tells all the boys to "stay on the job".

Keep that wheel a-turnin' Keep that wheel a-turnin'
Keep that wheel a-turnin' … and do a little more each day


What's the verdict from the Mudcat peanut gallery?

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Gavin
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:33 PM

Hi there

I have a memory of a folk group sining the song about William Brown but for the life of me I can't remember their names. I think it must have been back in the 70s or 80s. Anyone able to help please.

Thanks

Gavin

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

O dear maybe not!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:37 AM

Well tuff, I reckon that the popularity and Yorkshire reference are enough of a connection! for Yorkshire Garland

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

Malcolm,
Brilliant as ever. I am once again in awe!
Sounds like he could be the London book illustrator of the 50s I came across by Googling.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:40 AM

Various online library catalogues show that [The] Labour community song book : Labour words to popular tunes / Words and illustrations by A.T. Hagg was published in London, probably 1927, by [The] New Leader. Some entries also suggest 1925 or 1929, so presumably date not given. It appears to have been more of a pamphlet than a book; octavo, 9 pages.

An old Ebay auction cached at Google provides the following:

Arthur T Hagg. Born 11th November 1895, studied at Norwich School of Art 1912, and at Westminster School of Art under Menisky and Bayes. Exhibited at the R.A., R.I., R.B.A., N.E.A.C. Lived in London for some years.

The birth of an Arthur Thomas Hagg was registered at Norwich in the last quarter of 1895. (ancestry.co.uk)

Sketches and designs by Hagg appeared in The Joyland Journal, published in Mountjoy Prison, Dublin, by and for imprisoned conscientious objectors during WWI; whether he himself was imprisoned is unclear. (Graham, John William, Conscription and Conscience; a History, 1916-1919. London: Allen & Unwin [1922] page 281). British Army WWI service records show an Arthur Thomas Hagg registered to the 4th Eastern Non-Combatant Corps on 9 June 1916 at Norwich, having been granted exemption from combatant service 'by local tribunal' (ancestry.co.uk).

Whether all these references are to the same man, and whether he is the writer of 'William Brown', is not certain, but it does seem likely enough. Assuming that to be the case, he was a Norfolk man who spent most of his adult life in London (telephone directories for 1956-1962 show an Arthur T Hagg living at 56 Belsize P[ar]k G[ar]d[e]ns NW3) and any Yorkshire connection is pretty tenuous: limited, so far as can be seen, to the appearance of the word 'Yorkshire' in one line of the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Roughyed
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:54 AM

We certainly could. I had a dig around the web and found according to a Wikipaedia entry that Arthur T Hagg contributed artistic items to the ILP paper The New Learder. I had a further dig around and found he wrote and illustrated a 1920's chilrens poetry book called Bedtime Stories. If you have a copy hanging around the attic it appears to be worth about 28 quid.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM

We could do with some ILP now!

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Roughyed
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

I wouldn't go overboard about the Yorkshire connection. The founding conference happened to be in Bradford but it was a national organisation so it doesn't necessarily give us a clue.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:18 AM

Good innit!

Such a fountain of collective knowledge here Steve

So 1893 Bradford suggests Yorkshire for Arthur Hagg

Of course Turning a Wheel seems "generic" as we say nowadays for any skilled workman!

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Roughyed
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:19 AM

It was the Independent Labour Party. Founded in Bradford UK in 1893 it was one of the currents that led to the foundation of the Labour party to which it was affiliated. It was always to the left of the Labour party and was an important strand of socialist thought in early twentieth century Britain.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:25 PM

Ray,
On the offchance it's not a common name I've been Googling 'Arthur-Hagg'. There are several mentioned, one a book illustrator, but there is the famous Arthur Hagg, De-Havilland's aircraft designer who would have been 39 in 1927. Couldn't get onto the surname profiler maps to look at the distribution of Haggs. That's as far as I got.

BTW what does ILP stand for? International Labour Party at a guess.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:22 PM

In my version , the news appeared in " The Sketch And Mail" - The Daily Sketch WAS a tabloid newpaper that disappeared WAY Back then !
Both sets of lyrics above have obviously been updated after the demise of The Sketch .
Also , the same verse in the D T DOES have The Sketch , but I have
"The railways ran excusions down - Just to watch young William Brown "

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM

Can anyone help as to who Arthur Hagg was?

I/we are keen to have this is the Yorkshire Garland collection (online source) etc as it definitely says Yorkshire town

But who was Arthur Hagg and where was he born?

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:21 PM

sorry,JOE. didnt see your post

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM

I was under the impression that this song was written in the 1930s by a member of the Woodcraft Folk.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: GUEST,Ron Shuttleworth
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 02:16 AM

Ron Shuttleworth of Coventry Mummers also did a rework, if my memory serves. Anyway, he sang one.
Ron's variant had a humorous 'union' slant, with "steady!" and "brother!" warnings in the chorus.

I only heard it once, about 35 years ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: William Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: banjoman
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:29 AM

Heard another end verse to this recently:

William Browns a postman now
William Brown 's a postman now
William Browns a postman now
its better than walkin' the streets

Pete

Subject: ADD Version: William Brown (Arthur Hagg)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

Here's the version in Big Red Songbook (Mal Collins, Dave Harker, and Geoff White; Pluto Press, 1977 & 1981). This version is on page 26, tune on page 85.

William Brown
(Arthur Hagg)

A nice young man was William Brown,
He worked for a wage in a Yorkshire town;
He turned a wheel from left to right,
From eight at morning till six at night.
CHORUS:
Now keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
And do a little more each day.

The boss one day to William came.
'Look here', he said, 'Young what's your name.
We're far from pleased with what you do;
So hurry that wheel or out you go!'
CHORUS:
Now keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
And do a little more each day.

So William turned and he made her run
Three times round in the place of one.
He turned so hard he was quickly made
The Lord High Turner of his trade.
CHORUS:
Now keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
And do a little more each day.

His fame spread wide o'er hill and dale.
His face appeared in the Daily Mail.
Cheap coach trips were organised
All to gaze at the lad's blue eyes.
CHORUS:
Now keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
And do a little more each day.

Still William turned with a saintly smile;
The goods he made grew such a pile.
They filled his room and the room next door
And overflowed to the basement floor.
CHORUS:
Now keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
Keep that wheel a turning
And do a little more each day.

But sad the sequel now to tell;
With profits raised the boss could sell
To take-over group from London town.
The first redundant case was Brown!
CHORUS:
Now he's in the queue a' walting,
He's in the queue a' waiting,
He's in the queue a' waiting,
And he gets a little thinner each day.

Now workers don't be such a clown,
But take a tip from William Brown.
If you work too hard you'll surely be
Wiser but poorer same as he.
CHORUS:
For he's in the queue a' waiting,
He's in the queue a' waiting,
He's in the queue a' waiting
And he gets a little thinner each day.


Notes: First published in the 1927 edition of the ILP Songbook. The versions of verses 4 and 6 are by Bill Keable, as is the additional verse and chorus to end the song.

Subject: ADD Version: Wm Brown (Keep That Wheel A-Turnin')
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 02:42 PM

I was thinking of adding this song to my vast repertoire of novelty songs. I like the version in the Digital Tradition, although I wonder where it comes from. Anybody know for sure who wrote it?
I see mention above of other versions, and of similar songs. Can somebody post some?
Here's what I hear on the Spinners in Concert CD.


WILLIAM BROWN (KEEP THAT WHEEL A-TURNIN')
(Stan Kelly?)-[probably not]

A nice young fellow was William Brown,
He worked for a wage in Liverpool town.
He worked from early morn til night,
Turnin' a wheel from left to right.

CHORUS
Keep that wheel a-turnin', keep that wheel a-turnin'
Keep that wheel a-turnin', and do a little more each day.


One day, the boss to William came,
He said, "Look here, young...what's your name?
We must increase production, so,
Work a bit harder or out you go.

So William turned, and he made her run
Three times in the space of one.
He turned so hard that he soon was made
Lord High Turner to the trade.

William turned with the same sweet smile.
The goods he made grew such a pile,
They filled the room and the room next door
And overflowed the basement floor.

The nation heard of the wondrous tale
News appeared in the Sun and Mail
Railways ran excursions down
All because of William Brown.

But sad the sequel is to tell,
He turned out more than the boss could sell.
The market slumped and the price went down,
Seven more days and they sacked young Brown.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: Irene M
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:47 AM

I know of two re-workings of Keep That Wheel A-turning.
One was Les Barker, about Cedric Brown, when he "ran" British Gas. (June Tabor did it.) The other was by Alex Glasgow, and used in The Northern Drift. The chorus being:

"I love my work and I love my wages, I love my boss and he loves me too,
Oh, my lovely line of sausages, I'll surely die for the love of you."

He did of course, because the production line was speeded up and he fell in.

Irene

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 08:59 AM

Anyone have the chorus words?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Oct 02 - 09:53 AM

According to AMG/All Music Guide, Pete Seeger recorded a song called "Bill Brown" on his album "Little Boxes and Other Broadsides" Smithsonian/Folkways Fv-9020. Authorship is credited to "Marrs".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 03:28 PM

There's another song about Bill Brown, I heard sung by Seeger. Something about being in a union and a line in the chorus about this " Red, black and blue Bill Brown" and "They said he was a communist, and they put him on another list". Anybody know this one?
Giok

Subject: Lyr Req: song about a worker, William Brown
From: GUEST,Union Maid
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:30 PM

Thanks, folks. I tried a search for [Harry Brown] and of course didn't find the song. I didn't try just "Brown" for fear of my system crashing from the overload!

It's great that the DT has a MIDI, too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: IanC
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

Here in DT

Keep that Wheel a'turnin'

:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:59 AM

Keep That Wheel A-Turning, I should think.

Subject: Lyr Req: song about a worker (Harry? Brown)
From: GUEST,Union Maid
Date: 16 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM

I heard a great English song recently about a worker named Brown -- Harry, I think -- whose story, in a nutshell, is that the boss tells him to work harder, so he does, and in the final analysis he is fired because he is overproductive and thus throwing a monkey wrench into the system.

Sorry my memory is so fuzzy. It's a very funny song, and a great one to add to any "labor song" repertoire.

Can you help me find the song?

Maid