opera

Subject: opera
From: GUEST,the bitch
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:32 PM

I've just been reading the ballet thread and have been startled at the number of catters who are into these higher art forms I thought all catters were flat cap and whippet lovers- well pie and peas and an evening swilling beer at the local folk club at the very least. Now champagne and opera there is an evening to die for!

Subject: RE: opera
From: Ed.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:01 PM

I've never quite 'got' opera, and I've never much liked it.

I think, for me, the problem is the style of singing. The vibrato etc. just irks me. I don't like heavy rock for the same reason. In that case the singers 'shreak' but it's esentially the same problem.

I like singing that is speaking in tune.

Ed

Subject: RE: opera
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:11 PM

As with any performance art, there is more going on than just the music. Once, my wife and I went to Lucia and counted "Edgardo's." We always bring binoculars to admire costume details, etc.

Remember that this art was developed before electronic amlification.
Motions had to be somewhat exaggerated. Voices had to be projected. The "fat lady" had to have a voice that was both good and reached the back of the hall.

There is always something to learn and enjoy.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:24 PM

Ed, I hear a quite different sound. Thanks to a friend who knows and understands voices, I've learned a lot about evaluating them and listening for certain qualities. Before that, my experiences of hearing opera sung were limited to TV caricatures and cartoon-types that made the singing look silly. Then there were divas like Maria Callas (with the voice that waves) whose vibrato really irritated many people.

I like to hear a pure, unaffected voice sing with great emotion and feeling. Then the ensemble singing as in the Flower Duet from Madama Butterfly or the Sextet from Lucia...simply astounding!

I have trouble appreciating Madrigal singing with all the exagerated facial expressions. I also have trouble appreciating a bass voice.

Subject: RE: opera
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:26 PM

*I've* never understood why people waste money on champagne.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:27 PM

Ed, if what you've heard is shrieking then you haven't heard a good opera singer... live and in person. Recordings, radio, etc., don't give you the real sound. You have to hear it done well and done live in front of you to appreciate it.

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:46 PM

I've been to the opera twice. I saw Don Giovanni and Rigoletto. I loved it. Carmen is my favorite, though, and I hope to be able to see it in person one of these days.

Here in Nashville you can usually get a cheap seat at the opera for about $15. So it's fun for me and Mister to get kinda dressed up and go for dinner and a show. :-)

Subject: RE: opera
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:13 PM

Well, Ed, I'm into opera as well as ballet! I only really started going about 4 years ago when my second son was studying GSCE Music so I took him along to Carmen, and things have just gone on since then.

What I've never understood, though is why opera is round about 30% more expensive than ballet, at least where I go. I'm comparing the same seats in the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden for example.

Anyone care to explain that?

Subject: RE: opera
From: Ed.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:32 PM

That's the thing Dave.

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. I'm not however keen to spend stupid amounts of money if it resusts in my finding that I was right all along...

Ed

Subject: RE: opera
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:43 PM

Ed, do you have a way to attend the dress rehearsals? The one's I've been to are just like a performance, but free and a smaller crowd.

Subject: RE: opera
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:02 PM

If you are ever in NYC, visit the Amato Opera Company on the Bowery. It is a TINY theatre which sits about 200 max with a miniscule stage. But the director, Tony Amato, and his performers love what they do and many of their productions rival the best opera houses in sheer beauty. And if you look around carefully you are likely to see the lead singers from major companies. This is where many of them got their start.

Incredible sets, full length operas, and tea with the performers at intermission. Mrs. Amato will ask you to buy a raffle ticket. With a $10-15 admission ticket, how can you say "No!"?

Try an opera that appeals to you. The Barber of Seville is fun and the music will be familiar, I promise. Or "Fleidermaus" - all silliness and waltzes. Again, I would be surprised if you did not know at least half the music already.

A suggestion: Beforehand, listen to a recording of "Great Moments" in whatever opera you plan to see/hear. And sit in the balcony. You get a view of everything that is going on. I once had center seats in
Row 1 at the Met and spent the entire performance watching the percussionist share his copy of Penthouse with the rest of the orchestra. First fiddle picked his nose and several others dozed. Ed, they may have agreed with you.

As for the shrieking. I cannot abide Pavarotti or any other tenor but melt when Sam Ramey or Thomas Hampson performs. Sigh...

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:34 PM

"Shrieking?" I don't quite get this "shrieking" business. Granted, opera singers tend to sing pretty loudly. But as EBarnacle pointed out above, the art developed before amplification, and opera singers have to make themselves heard over what amounts to a full symphony orchestra—and do it without cramming a hand mike down their throats like rock and pop singers do.

I don't understand how someone can hear, say, the first act duet in Lucia di Lammermoor or the aria Caro Nome from Rigoletto and call it "shrieking."

I once attended a preview of an upcoming Seattle Opera production of Madame Butterfly. In a church basement usually used for meetings and after-service coffee, two singers, the leading tenor, Dennis Bailey, and the leading soprano, whose name I can't recall, along with a piano accompanist, explained some of the background and details of the opera. Then they sang the quite lengthy love duet from the opera. I was absolutely amazed at the amount of sound that they were able to produce. It was almost superhuman! These were two people who were used to singing in a 3,100 seat opera house accompanied by a full orchestra and making themselves heard. Heard, not just when they were singing at top volume, but heard when they were singing softly. The love duet in Madame Butterfly is full of dynamic changes. I was about twenty feet away, and I didn't hear any "shrieking." I heard two people who had taken the voices they were born with and had trained them and honed them into magnificent musical instruments. Neither of them were especially well-know, although both of them toured and sang in various opera productions around the country, which means they had to be good. Last I heard, Dennis Bailey had been hired away from Seattle Opera by Beverly Sills to sing for the New York City Opera Company.

My opera recordings take up a couple of feet of shelf space, and I've seen plenty of operas live. Seeing an opera live and knowing something about it before you go is the way to do it. For someone unfamiliar with opera, I would recommend La Bohème as a start. I think everybody can relate to that one. A bunch of hippies in nineteenth century Paris, trying to make it as poets, artists, and musicians while living on a tattered shoe-string. And the music is positively lush. Or possibly I Pagliacci or Cavalleria Rusticana. They're both short, and the stories are simple and easy to understand. PBS occasionally broadcasts live (taped) operas: "Live from the Met" or "Live from Lincoln Center." That way you can watch it without shuckin' out a wad of money and you can follow the story with sub-titles. But that works only if your TV has a decent sound system. The "shrieking" probably has more to do with a tinny speaker than it does with the singers.

Renée Fleming is a soprano with a very rich voice. Her recording of "Song to the Moon" from Dvorák's Rusalka is gorgeous! Contrive to give it a listen sometime.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 12:53 AM

I've seen very few live performances but have watched a great many on TV. My abiding response to most of opera's stories is that I would rather read the book. Except for one thing: some of the operatic duets, especially in a language I don't know, are heaven; with their lush harmonies, it is angels singing; a totally sensory experience...

And of course La Boheme. Great story- and the deathbed scene is a gripping, memorable one. Wonderful songs throughout. Our local lyric opera company performed it a couple of years ago; I was SO proud to live in a town that is home to such great voices.

Subject: RE: opera
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 09:41 AM

To get a notion of what opera singers were in competition with in the days before amplification, listen to some Al Jolsen or even Martha Raye. It's economics. People went to the huge theatres because they were stylish and sexy (the theratres). Any singer who could fill the hall could get bookings. Listen closely: AL JOLSEN USED VIBRATO ! It's necessary. In opera,too.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Homeless
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

Until relatively recently, my operatic exposures had amounted to cartoons and a few short listens to recording. A few months ago, because of work, I attended a pre-performance Opera Ball where part of the entertainment was people singing selections from the upcoming opera. At then end of that night I still couldn't say that I cared for it at all. Then I attended the final dress rehersal to shoot the pictures. While a large part of my attention was spent on what I was shooting, the music and singing came thru very strongly too. I went in fully expecting to be bored out of my skull, or severly annoyed by the "shrieking." What I found instead was that in situ it was very enjoyable. I was back two days later for the opening performance (again, for work) and really enjoyed it, much to my surprise. Now I don't believe I would ever go out an get a recording, but I am looking forward to the next opera that comes to town.

In my opinion, opera music and singing is something that very much needs to be taken in context. I've read Shakespeare, and have been confused and/or bored to tears. I've seen movies of Shakespeare's plays and hated them. But I love to see it acted out on stage. Opera is the same way. It's a performance you've got to see live to appreciate.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:04 PM

Bingo, Homeless! Live music is best.

I've found that most people who say they hate opera have never actually gone to one live. They tend to hear what, to them, is an unfamiliar style of singing in a language they don't understand, don't immediately grasp what's going on, and dismiss the whole thing as ridiculous without knowing anything about it.. Add to this a few parodies or cartoon stereotypes (e.g., the rotund soprano in the iron brassiere—the legendary "fat lady"), and they think they know what it's all about. That's like someone seeing some comic come on stage wearing bib overalls, carrying a banjo, and singing something about "possum up a gum stump" in a Mortimer Snerd voice and concluding that they know all about folk music.

Since opera is usually sung in the original language (Italian, French, German, Russian, etc.) it helps to know what's actually going on. The recent use of "supratitles" (like movie subtitles projected at the top of the stage) helps some, but I tend to find it distracts me a bit from what's going on on stage.

When I was a teen-ager, an older friend of mine got interested in opera, went to a voice teacher, learned he had a potentially good tenor voice, and went kinda nuts. Up until that time, I was sure that opera was "sumpthin' stupid," but he exposed me to a lot of it and got me interested. I spent a lot of time listening to records and reading along in the libretto (a little booklet that comes with a record set—two columns, original language on one side, English translation on the other), so I learned the plots and could follow what they were singing. The first opera I ever saw live (La Bohème), I knew the story ahead of time and was very familiar with the music, so it was like diving into warm water. Made me an addict ever since.

My particular choice for my own performing is folk music. But I love opera. People talk about how dumb some of the opera plots are, but if one were to compare them with the plots of many of the classic Child ballads, one couldn't help but notice the strong parallels. I consider opera to be ballads on steroids. Ballads? Mini-operas.

Example: Boy and girl fall in love. Boy has to go away for a while, girl promises to wait for him. Girl's father considers boy unsuitable. Forces her into a marriage with a rich man. The girl dies. The boy returns the same day, but it's too late. He dies. Pretty ridiculous plot, huh?
Ballad:—Anachie Gordon. Opera:— Lucia di Lammermoor.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:28 PM

Don... folk ballads on steroids... I LOVE THAT!
Folk stories with HIGH DRAMA.

Subject: RE: opera
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

You might try La Traviata. It has been done in many variants and on many media. Most of the productions, even the less successful ones are beautiful.

One of the good things about the Amato company is that, if you wish to really learn about opera, you can walk in and volunteer. If you have a decent voice of your own, it is likely that you will have a role, if only as a spear carrier, right away. They are a demanding group, though. To be really involved, you have to take part in teaching and outreach for them. Amato, by the way, only does Italian opera.

Subject: RE: opera
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:04 AM

There's a lot written above to agree with. I love it and I particularly love singing as part of an opera chorus. The arrangements are often masterpieces and performing with a symphony orchestra is sheer delight. Mary has offended me not at all even though I sing basso profundo.

There's good opera and bad, just as the quality of performance varies. I'm very happy to be a folkie as well, or perform jazz or swing. In my opinion they help to keep me excited about music and make it such an integral part of my life. In any of these art forms nothing beats performing, but being there to experience a live performance comes very close.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: opera
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:19 AM

I didn't realize I loved opera until I took an opera appreciation course at Adult Ed because it was the only type of music I thought I didn't like. Now I know more about it and truly love live performances. There's no comparison between being there vs watching it on TV or listening to a recording. It's a total experience.

Subject: RE: opera
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM

Is says something about opera that Pavarotti expected to spend his live as a baker. He really wanted to be a soccer player. Opera was his last choice.

Subject: RE: opera
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:00 AM

As someone who Pavarotti looks like [I have been asked for his autograph on the street but now am getting a bit grey. He's a tenor, I'm a deep baritone.] I recognize that he had to be discovered by someone. If he had no desire to sing, it wouldn't have happened. He had to be out there and available to be tapped. Someone, somewhere saw him or heard him and said "You can be a star. All you have to do is work your butt off for the next X years and the world will know you."

I can't say for sure, but I don't believe someone walked up to him in the bakery for no reason and said this. He may have been doing it for pleasure but he had to have prepared in some way for that first break. As mentioned above, there is a very big difference between a trained voice and an untrained voice.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:16 PM

Pavarotti's official web site has a full biography of him. http://www.lucianopavarotti.com/ Click here

Here is a quote from his bio about his childhood :
"...The lively young Luciano was especially fascinated by
                                       his father, who was a baker by profession but had a beautiful voice
                                       and sang in the Corale Rossini of Modena. He never tired of
                                       repeating "my father is a tenor, I'm a "tenorino" and spent hours
                                       listening to recordings of great singers from his father's vast
                                       collection. "

Subject: RE: opera
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM

Misophist, I don't know where you got the idea that opera was his last choice. Here is a bit more from Pavarotti's bio:
"...But Pavarotti also had a very close, intense
                            relationship with his parents: a relationship among free, independent individuals
                            who were deeply united at crucial moments - indeed they even took votes before
                            making decisions. When Luciano finished teachers' training-college they voted to
                            decide whether he should become a gym instructor or study singing, though the
                            pursuit of a career as a professional tenor was an arduous and uncertain enterprise.
                            And yet his destiny seemed settled, practically foreordained.

                            Thus the young Pavarotti, who had already been
                            singing together with his father in the Modena
                            Choir for some time, began to attend the lessons
                            of the maestro Arrigo Pola, whose principles and
                            rules would guide him throughout his long
                            career."

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:42 PM

I will never forget the first time I heard Pavarotti. In the mid-Seventies I was working as an announcer at KXA, a classical music station in Seattle (now, sadly, defunct). Marvelous job! I got to sit there with a cup of coffee, my feet propped up, playing music that I thoroughly enjoy. Another job benefit was getting ego-strokes from people who said, "Oh! You're a radio announcer!" and suddenly became highly impressed with me. And I got paid for all this!

This particular Sunday afternoon, the major work the program director had scheduled was the Rossini Stabat Mater. I put the record on the turntable, read a bit from the liner notes, started it up, and sat back. Not that long into the piece is a tenor aria, the cujus animam, that I had heard before sung by Beniamino Gigli. Gigli, a famous tenor from yesteryear, was no slouch. But on this recording, it was sung by Luciano Pavarotti. I had never heard of him, so I gave him a close listen. The further he got into it, the more impressed I became. Finally, it hit me that this was one of the finest tenor voices I had ever heard. Then, near the very end, he took the high note. It was incredible coming back through the big studio monitor speakers. I don't know what the note was—up around C, I'm pretty sure—but I sat there with my mouth open!

About twenty seconds later, all the buttons on the phone lit up. On weekends, KXA was a one-man operation, so for the next half-hour I was fielding phone calls. They were all the same. ""Who is THAT!??" When things calmed down, I dug through the station's music library and found another record: a collection of operatic arias sung by Pavarotti: "King of the High Cs." So later in the afternoon, I played a few cuts from the record, and again the phone lit up.

I think a lot of Pavarotti records were sold around Seattle that afternoon. Including to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:48 PM

Don, if you go to his web site and read the bio, you'll find a bit about the performance that let to the "King of high C's". When I found his bio this afternoon, had to read through the whole thing. Here is the part about the high C's:

"...the culminating event in 1966 was Pavarotti's Covent Garden appearance - with Joan Sutherland - in an opera that is legendary for its "nine high C's": La Fille du Regiment. For the first time a tenor sang out in full voice the nine high C's of Pour mon âme, quel destin!, which Donizetti had written to be sung in falsetto. The audience raved, the opera house was shaken by a sort of explosion that even struck all the members of the English royal family who were present at the performance. "

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:48 PM

Dear Guest who started this.....

May your wish be granted.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:03 PM

That aria from La Fille du Regiment was another one that had me with my chin on the floor. It seemed so easy for him. Sheer exuberance! So far, I've only heard one other tenor try those nine high Cs full voice the way Pavarotti does: Alfredo Krause. He's very good, but it was obviously a real effort for him. He sounded like he might blow a tonsil at any moment (not anatomically correct, but you get the idea).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: pattyClink
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:59 PM

I don't get it much, but more than I used to. Got my hands on a few recordings of Puccini stuff sung by Italian speaking singers. THAT I liked. Kind of the "I don't like movies, but that Casablanca's all right" approach. Or "I don't much care for Tom Jones doing the blues, but that BB King, now that's different".

Now I agree I also need to hear this stuff live. If I can just screw up the courage to go see non-Italians sing one live.

Subject: RE: opera
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:17 AM

My brother taught us about opera when we were really young. He came back from living in Europe and seeing the Ring Cycle at Bayreuth and taught us more.

Mozart's Magic Flute is my very favourite, followed by La Boheme. Another very favourite, written and sung in English is the Ballad of Baby Doe.

Somewhere we have an old 78 with Kirsten Flagstad singing. I loved Beverly Sillses voice when she was still performing, but Flagstad was really something,too. If I remember right, she was one of the ones in an old black and white film of the Magic Flute, maybe by Bergman? I know i found it riveting. Also saw a wonderful new production of it on the tube a few years ago. Plus, a very sweet Mudcatter sent me an incredible boxed set of a classic edition of it a year or two ago. Did I mention the Magic Flute is my fav?:-)

Subject: RE: opera
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:19 AM

Go--It's worth your time.
If you approach with open mind
You will take clouds from eyes.

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Whippet
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 06:22 AM

What are you wassocks going on about. A bunch of overdressed, overweight pirrocks singinging instead of acting what's it all about give us a break and go to a good workies club instead, that's proper singing tha knaws

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,the bitch
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 06:26 AM

I have been without a computer for a few days dur to problems with it that so far four technicians have failed to resolve but I am pleased to see my comments have started some interesting conversations - champagne - well its like anything you can get good and bad and once you are spaced out then you dont really notice anyway

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Whippet
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:01 AM

Champagne is for ponces. Get some Brown Ale down thee gob

Subject: RE: opera
From: Micca
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:22 AM

I am with Katlaf on this The Magic Flute is da biz, silly plot, almost pantomime, but the MOST beautiful sublime music you will ever hear,!!! WAM at his very best!!
but for sheer hedonistic sensual pleasure, a warm bath, a glass of Cointreau (With more to hand , with ice), a cafetiere of GOOD coffee, and the first act of La Traviata on the stereo.....Wonderful!!!
but then I am a throwback, my mother, who infected me with her love of Opera liked Puccini and Verdi, I, on the other hand am like my grandfather and prefer Mozart and Wagner!!, opera is NOT musical theatre,but something different in the theatrical experience!!!Wagner described it as a "complete " experience, sets, music , singing , story, all coming together to form a whole.

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Whippet
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:48 AM

Wagner was a Nazi !!!!

Subject: RE: opera
From: JJ
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:10 AM

How pleasing it is to know, Kat, that someone who spells the word "favourite" admires Douglas Moore's "The Ballad of Baby Doe." I feared it was only liked by those who spell the word "favorite." I assume you have the original recording with Beverly Sills in the title role.

Subject: RE: opera
From: 53
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:17 AM

usually has no guitar in it.

Subject: RE: opera
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:18 AM

I do have the original with Sills, JJ. Even though I use the odd spelling for the States' side of the pond, I am of Colorado ancestry and was raised here, so the Ballad has especial meaning for me, particularly as my great-grandparents, on two sides, settled in Leadville around the same time as Tabor.

I've had the pleasure of visiting the Tabor Opera House in Leadville; alone with a wonderful old lady who wrote a book about it and who knew my great-aunt quite well. This was a few years ago, so I don't know if she is still alive or not, but she sure knew the history of the Opera house! They actually had a live circus on stage, once, with uncaged tigers not 5 feet from the audience. Quite a lively place in its heyday!

Subject: RE: opera
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM

For those who may not know it, there is a nice synopsis of the Ballad of Baby Doe at this site; plus, you can see a small picture and get info on the Tabor Opera House here.

Subject: RE: opera
From: 53
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM

I really don't care for it.

Subject: RE: opera
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM

I changed the synopsis to a different site. Better write-up plus some pictures. You have to scroll down to get to it.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:35 AM

I'm so glad to see this discussion in Mudcat, that I'll forget for a moment some unfortunate circumstances in my life. To be very brief, I had been singing Argentine folk for years until one day I sit down to listen carefully to a full opera. I was so impressed that I promised to myself to keep my mouth shut for the rest of my life. Twenty years later I timidly started to sing with a local choir, (religious, pop and folk arranged for SATB - soprano-alto-tenor-bass), studied vocal technique for 6 years, climbed up four choral groups, and landed in the Colón Theatre, our main Opera House, singing with the greatest, anonymously among 15 other tenors, but participating in the most emotionally overwhelming experiences of my life.

And you know what ? After that, I can sing those folk songs much better, and I could turn my dream into reality, to sing old blues and gospel, and Old Man River, and Sometimes I Feel.., and My Old Kentucky Home, and those marvelous songs that Paul Robeson gave to us from his educated, operatic wonderful voice.

To finish up: to anyone willing to live the experience of the opera, don't listen to a cone of paper activated by electricity. Listen to the human voice in its utmost quality: in an opera house, live, free, wild, naturally vibrated, naturally joined to woods and cords and metals. Of course there will be operas inspired by love to music, and others by love to money and celebrity, this has been always the same issue, but you'll easily find those musical masterworks.

(and listen to Alice! :) and to what she says)

Un abrazo,
Andrés (Escamillo, le toreró de Granada, in Bizet's Carmen)

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:49 AM

One more and I'll shut my big mouth: some Mudcatters may recall how excited and nervous I was when I was going to be heared by the director of the Wagnerian Association Choir, in 1999. For this hearing I had prepared nothing less than a beatiful, classical version of "Amazing Grace", and for this reason I had been sharing my expectancies with Mudcatters, who encouraged me so much and so friendly, that I'll never forget it. That time the Maestro must have been a little deaf, and I got the position immediately, and got drunk (virtually) at the Mudcat Tavern among a lot of drunken friends. This will make me cry soon, so let's leave it here.
Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: opera
From: Gloredhel
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 01:33 AM

I've never been to a performance of an actual opera, but I have attended several performances of arias and ensembles from various operas. Three weeks ago (I think--can't really remember that far back) I saw the winners of the Seattle Young Artists competition perform. ("Young" here is what I consider to be a relative term--it means, essentially, under 30.) I've heard both good and bad singers, but that performance was of the sort to restore my faith in opera (if I was ever in danger of loosing it). Their voices were strong but not overpowering, the vibrato was downplayed, and nobody was shrieking. Overall, it was immensely pleasing, and if I remembered any of their names, I would reccomend that you watch the opera headlines for their names in the future.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 04:36 PM

An opera-illiterate, I still have definite opinions. (Nothing keeps ignorance silent.)

I love Pavarotti's silvery, true voice, even though I suspect that Domingo's voice, being warmer, is closer to 'folk'.

I never really learned to like Beverly Sills' voice. I like and admire the woman but her voice was too high for me to listen to- it hurt my throat. OMHO

I did like Joan Sutherland very much, even though she's soprano and I enjoy Marilyn Horne and a number of others.

The one I would like to hear in a full operatic venue is Denise Graves. Her voice is warm and full of color and flexible and easy.

Subject: RE: opera
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 08:19 PM

The trouble with most opera is that they aren't the Magic Flute. Like the trouble with most music is that it's not Mozart.

But having overcome that hurdle, there's a lot of good stuff to enjoy. Drawing imaginary lines and saying "I don't like that stuff" is a bad mistake. (Saying "I didn't like that there" is different. And noone ever liked the first cup of coffee they drank either.) Sir Thomas Beecham said you should try everything except incest and Morris Dancing. (Though he was wrong about the dancing.)

The image of Pavarotti playing football is a haunting one. Perhaps Rugby or its American variant might be a bit more feasable. Anyway, Nessum Dorma for the World Cup must have gone a long way to make him feel he'd really fulfilled that ambition.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:35 PM

In one of my posts above, I mention soprano Renée Fleming.

It's 10:30 a.m. Pacific Standard Time in Seattle, and I'm sitting here listening to St. Paul Sunday, hosted by Bill McGlaughlin, on our local NPR affiliate. His guest this morning is Renée Fleming. Interview (so far, they've talked about unamplified opera singing being the last bastion of really big voices--and the ability to project) and she sings a lot. If interested, you should be able to listen HERE. I don't know how long it may be archived, but it's there now.

The first songs she sings are by Richard Strauss, which are not everyone's cup of tea, but she soon gets into an aria by Puccini, and another which was featured in the French cult film of a decade or so ago called Diva. Good movie.

Anyway, if you have chance, and the inclination, give her a listen.

(Also, contrary to the "fat lady" opera singer stereotype, Renée Fleming is a very good looking woman. Picture on the web site. Also, they just mentioned that one of her records is outselling Bruce Springsteen's!!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:51 PM

She just mentioned that she likes folk music--guitar and voice--and right now, she's singing The Water is Wide -- just move over to Shenandoah.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM

contrary to the "fat lady" opera singer stereotype, Renée Fleming is a very good looking woman.

Better watch saying things like that Don. There are some beautiful big ladies who might not appreciate it.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 01:57 PM

She "gussies them up" a bit, but then, she's a opera/concert singer, and she's doing them as concert pieces, not trying to be "authentic" or "ethnic."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:06 PM

True, Kevin. Marilyn Horne isn't exactly svelte, and Jessie Norman, possessor of one of the world's greatest soprano voices, is a pretty hefty lady. I also think "Mama" Cass Elliot had one of the best non-classical voices in captivity. Beauty is as beauty does!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: JJ
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:45 PM

All this from my untrustworthy memory, but as I remember it...

Placido Domingo comes from a family of Mexican zarzuela performers, a sort of Spanish-language musical comedy.

He began his career as a baritone, which accounts for his vocal timbre. Domingo may be a member of the "Loverly" quartet on the Original Mexico City Cast Recording of "My Fair Lady," in Spanish, of course.

Subject: RE: opera
From: dorareever
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:42 PM

Opera is wonderful when you have real good personal singers.The bad thing is that 9 time on 10 you just have plastic opera= people with good technical skills,but no soul.But that happens a lot in pop or folk music too.So opera with good singers is a miracle and opera with bad singers is hard to understand,boring and full of itself.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:04 PM

9 times out of 10 is a bit excessive these days, dorareever. Things are a lot better than they used to be. More and more, good singers are becoming good actors as well, and more of them tend to look the parts they portray. Directors of opera companies are being a lot more careful about casting. With a lot of exceptions, opera singers of years gone by tended to be pretty stiff, but not anymore.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:54 PM

Sometimes we would like to listen to some opera but the theatre is far from home, and the night is cold or.. anything. Then an excellent audio device could poorly imitate the sound, and with much imagination, we could enjoy some good moments. For those ocassions, I would recommend something beyond audio: there are some excellent videos recorded at live performances, but there are two which I really enjoy:

1) Georges Bizet's CARMEN, with Julia Migenes-Johnson (Carmen), Plácido Domingo (Don José) and Ruggiero Ricci (Escamillo) filmed not in a theatre but in natural and historic scenarios in Sevilla, Spain, by the master cinematographist FRANCESCO ROSSI. The images compete in beauty with the music. See the cavalry entering the place among a choir of children, see the sweet song of Micaela, and the tremendous Aria of the Cards of Carmen, the Flower Song, the glory of Escamillo, and the final drama, all in the most fantastic images I've ever seen in this genre.

2) Giuseppe Verdi's OTHELLO, with Plácido again as Othello and..(sorry..don't remember the others, all of first category) filmed in natural places by FRANCO ZEFIRELLI, one of the geniuses of cinema.

Look at some hidden shelf at Blockbuster or some specialized video store. I'm sure you will repeat the experience many times. These videos have done a great job for the opera, because while we are deprived of the natural sound, as a compensation we can see the action in natural scenarios and not the restricted scope of a theatre stage. Note: these versions are complete, absolutely loyal to the original score.

Un abrazo,
Andrés (le toreró de Buenos Aires)

Subject: RE: opera
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:22 PM

Andres, your postings to this thread are just fantastic! Thank you!

Subject: RE: opera
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:14 AM

To add to Andrés' video list: La Bohème with Teresa Stratas as Mimi and José Carreras as Rodolfo, directed by Franco Zefirelli. Excellent singers all, good acting, and everybody looks the part. Four stars. Plot synopsis here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: opera
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:19 AM

The idea of subtitles or supratitles makes sense - but not just for translations, even more maybe for the actual text being sung, to help train the ear into recognising what is being sung.

I can make a lot more sense out of an Italian lyric in print than I can out of an English lyric being sung by most opera singers. (And that's with pretty minimal Italian.) It's something to do with the way they distort the words in order to get adequate volume or a prettier sound or something, but it might as well be Japanese.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 10:16 AM

GUEST,the Bitch, said:

"Now champagne and opera there is an evening to die for!"

Slight typo there. The last words should be "first".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 11:25 PM

I did never heard an opera sung in a language that is not the original, but heard many popular songs translated. The outcome is a completely different thing. Each word, each vowel and each consonant has a place in the flow of the melody, and once the music is joined with the lyrics and the action, there's nothing that could express the same in another language.

Curiously, one of the most important patriotic songs in Argentina, is named Aurora (Dawn) and sung in Spanish as an homage to the national flag. But the song was composed in Italy by an Argentinean composer, Panizza, in 1912 as an aria of his purely Italian opera Aurora, which was not "dawn", but it was the name of the female main character (like Aida, Carmen, Tosca..) This deeply beautiful aria has been sung by children for almost one century, and none of them has really understood the mess of Spanish words put there together by two respected poets some years after the opera was composed. Since it would be outrageous to sing it in Italian, there is now a controversy about changing the lyrics again, because it did never make sense !

I agree that the translated subtitles are acceptable, but I would prefer those subtitles showing us the original lyrics.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: opera
From: GUEST,Pavarotti
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:52 AM

I donna know what yo go onna bout. I take de peesse mosta de time cos I sometimes ssing the Kylie songs in Italian just to fool you folks

Subject: RE: opera
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 07:07 AM

Aurora

Alta en el cielo, un águila guerrera
audaz se eleva en vuelo triunfal;
azul un ala del color del cielo,
azul un ala del color del mar.

Así en la alta aurora irradial,
punta de flecha el áureo rostro imita,
y forma estela al purpurado cuello.

El ala es paño, el águila es bandera.
Es la bandera de la patria mía,
del sol nacida, que me ha dado Dios;
es la bandera de la patria mía,
del sol nacida, que me ha dado Dios;
es la bandera de la patria mía,
del sol nacida que me ha dado Dios.

I take it this is the one? Sounds pretty good, even on a piano midi. My Spanish is minimnal, but the words look to make as much sense as most national anthems and patriotic songs, and more than a great many.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:27 AM

Yes, it is ! The problems with these lyrics are that "irradial"is not an existent Spanish word, the original "aureola" (which makes sense) has been replaced by "Aurora", who knows why? , "la alta" is sung incorrectly "el alta" because otherwise it sounds horrible, "el áureo rostro imita" is a messy translation of the Italian and difficult to spell, the eagle itself is an European/ North American bird, while the CONDOR is the typical rapacious bird of the Andes mountains, and "que me ha " sounds identical to "que mea" (that pees). And of course, the title of the Aria is Canzone alla Bandiera and has nothing to do with the dawn. What a tough task is a translation !

Listen to the music and compare this to the Italian original:

Alta pel Cielo un aquila guerriera

Ardita s'erge a volo trionfale

Ha un'ala azzurra del color del mare

Ha un'ala azzurra del color del Cielo !

Cosí nel l'alta aureola irradiale

il rostro d'or punta de freccia appare

Porpora il teso collo e forma stello

l'ali son drappo e l'aquila e bandiera


E la bandiera del paese mío

nata nel Sole e che l'ha data Iddio
... etc.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: opera
From: Micca
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 04:25 AM

Escamillo, have you seen the Joseph Losey film of Mozarts "Don Giovanni" filmed on Location in Vicenza in Italy!! It is Wonderful and has a cast of Great voices, Kiri te Kanawa, Ruggiero Ricci, etc.

Subject: RE: opera
From: fogie
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:49 AM

I really got into Opera about ?10 yrs ago and at that time Channel4 was showing opera films which I videod for my own entertainment. Of course I went to the occasional live performance, but where I live means its not the thing you can do easily or often. I'm very happy with the videos, which I enjoy a lot more than just listening to my records, even though I appreciate that some records have better singers. I've got a B&W second act of Tosca with Callas flashing her eyes and strutting her stuff, a marvelous Swedish Magic Flute, Zefferelli's beautiful film of Traviata, with a great Domingo, and a good looking but dreadful colorata, a great Verona open air Aida, a very funny Cinderella (gosh I do love Rossini)with Teresa Stratas, a film of Domingo in a very rustic Cavalleria Rusticana, the wonderful
Tales of Hoffman, and even the whole Ring Cycle, although I havent watched it since I videod it. There are lots more- I think I've got about 100, as well as musicals, like the Rogers and Hammersteins.
The only one I really want and havent got is Le Comte D'ory, although I have got it predecessor.
I hope that you who are unconvinced try opera in some form or other, its sad to miss out on any art form especially one that can be so rewarding.
Vixens and Nixons to you all.

Subject: RE: opera
From: Escamillo
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 11:15 PM

No Micca, I haven't seen it but I'll try. Thanks Fogie for so many good references. Since I live in a big city with a high level of opera activity at international levels, it is not difficult for me to attend a live performance. The economic disaster in Argentina has not been sufficient to flatten any cultural activity, thanks to the people who resist, and double their efforts to keep the theatres open.

Thanks for your comments, Maestro Luciano !

By the way, the unknown and beautiful opera Aurora was many times performed in Buenos Aires, and my teacher Guido De Kehrig played the first tenor role. He has an extraordinary voice.

Un abrazo,
Andrés