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DC sniper; looks like they may have him?

JedMarum 24 Oct 02 - 09:31 AM
JedMarum 24 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM
53 24 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM
JedMarum 24 Oct 02 - 09:38 AM
jeffp 24 Oct 02 - 09:51 AM
catspaw49 24 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM
JedMarum 24 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM
katlaughing 24 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Claymore 24 Oct 02 - 10:57 AM
catspaw49 24 Oct 02 - 10:59 AM
Willie-O 24 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM
53 24 Oct 02 - 11:13 AM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM
Alice 24 Oct 02 - 11:22 AM
53 24 Oct 02 - 11:22 AM
Kim C 24 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM
53 24 Oct 02 - 11:49 AM
Willie-O 24 Oct 02 - 11:54 AM
DougR 24 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM
Bill D 24 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM
Amos 24 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM
catspaw49 24 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM
Kim C 24 Oct 02 - 12:53 PM
53 24 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM
Chip2447 24 Oct 02 - 02:29 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM
Amos 24 Oct 02 - 04:02 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 04:31 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 04:35 PM
Kim C 24 Oct 02 - 04:52 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 05:04 PM
Amos 24 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 05:32 PM
katlaughing 24 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Oct 02 - 05:49 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 02 - 06:17 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM
Gareth 24 Oct 02 - 06:49 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 02 - 06:51 PM
Gareth 24 Oct 02 - 06:56 PM
SINSULL 24 Oct 02 - 07:00 PM
Bobert 24 Oct 02 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,SINSULL 24 Oct 02 - 07:33 PM
Wincing Devil 24 Oct 02 - 11:32 PM
JedMarum 24 Oct 02 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,sympathy 25 Oct 02 - 12:14 AM
bflat 25 Oct 02 - 12:23 AM
Mark Cohen 25 Oct 02 - 02:10 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 02 - 04:19 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 02 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 09:45 AM
Kim C 25 Oct 02 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM
Bagpuss 25 Oct 02 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 10:43 AM
53 25 Oct 02 - 11:07 AM
Peg 25 Oct 02 - 11:08 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 11:18 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM
YOR 25 Oct 02 - 01:25 PM
katlaughing 25 Oct 02 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 02 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Claymore 25 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM
Big Mick 25 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM
Gareth 25 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM
YOR 25 Oct 02 - 10:56 PM
Jon Bartlett 26 Oct 02 - 01:47 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 26 Oct 02 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,Claymore 31 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 31 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM
Jon Bartlett 31 Oct 02 - 11:39 PM
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Subject: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:31 AM

They've made two arrests today. Sounds like some think they have their man?? I hope so.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM

CLICK


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM

That would be very nice.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:38 AM

I have my fingers crossed.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:51 AM

You're not the only one, Jed. From what I'm hearing on the radio, it looks very promising indeed. Who would have thought that the investigation would stretch down to Montgomery, Alabama and Tacoma, Washington, though?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM

Jed, we had another thread running as this has gone along, but I'll post today's posts from that thread here:

24 Oct 02 - 05:47 AM (#809939)
Subject: RE: BS: Possible Sniper Being Questioned
From: Wolfgang

Police have arrested the two men they have wanted to talk you urgently:

John Allen Mohammed
John Lee Malvo

I hope these news are as good as they look at the first glance.

Wolfgang

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24 Oct 02 - 08:38 AM (#810034)
Subject: RE: BS: Possible Sniper Being Questioned
From: catspaw49

I was wrong....this is an excellent piece of police work! These two look to be the real thing. Looks more promising all the time.....We can only hope.

Spaw

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24 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM (#810041)
Subject: RE: BS: Possible Sniper Being Questioned
From: Bobert

Great news. Was gettin a tad stuffy under the bed withthe P-Vine, dog and two cats. Jus funnin...

Looks more and more like this sorry episode is coming to a close.

Bobert

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24 Oct 02 - 08:47 AM (#810043)
Subject: RE: BS: Possible Sniper Being Questioned
From: Wolfgang

To Spaw..You were not the only who was wrong in this case:

Peg (in the first thread about the sniper):
This is a disgruntled and probably sociopathic (or psychopathic) killer, most likely a relatively young unemployed white guy: 30s, loner,
... There won't be a trial, I feel pretty sure of that (there never is anymore; the gunmen always either commit suicide or get
blown away by the SWAT team)


And I said something like: I bet she's not far off with that description.

Wolfgang
**********************************************************************

And Wolfgang, I guess we are all happily wrong! In my case, this is not a first!!! I am personally amazed at the extrapolation of "Montgomery" to Montgomery, Alabama, since so much of this has taken place in Montgomery County, Maryland. It was that as much as anything else which put them onto this father and (step)son. I can see how probably one guy just threw out, "What if he's not talking about THIS Montgomery?" Amazing....

Spaw


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM

Sorry Spaw - I looked at the threads, but I guess I looked too quickly!


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM

Well, I haven't read the longer thread, so I am going to post to this one, anyway. Sorry, Spawdarlin'.

I really hope they have the right people. I am dismayed, though, from early reports it sounds as though this may play right into Bush's hands and the whole "evil Al Queda/Homeland Security" thing, just before elections. I am really glad they've apparently caught the right persons, don't get me wrong.

kat


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:57 AM

But folks, you might recall the heat I took when I said "all the evidence to the contrary, I believe that the suspects are not white." As I said in the other post, 18 years of police work still counts for something (yet who always gets called the racist).

I'm still waiting to see how long they had a solid lead that these two were black, and why they held it back... Three hours after the Black Chief of Police reveals the descriptions of the two suspects (at midnight, when the TV and newspapers were past deadlines) a couple of citizens spot the car in an out-of-the-way rest stop, and they are captured. The truth will out, and as I said in a much earlier post on the other thread, if these descriptions were held back for PC reasons, they should fire Chief Moose.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 10:59 AM

Kat, that's okay....needed a new thread really....That's why I transferred the posts....Sorry too Jed, wasn't trying to chastize you!!

Kat, I think that is just one of the scenarios the news people are playing. From the CNN coverage, they have been somewhat careful not to go too far with that, In the final analysis, I doubt that there will be much in it along those lines. Perhaps dissatisfaction with the US, but hopefully nothing that Bush and Company can use. I am with you on this, nothing need to be "given" to the admin to reinforce their War on Civil Rights.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM

Think the people who turned him in got close enough to the car to see anyone's skin colour inside of it? I hope not. It was the vehicle they spotted, far as all the news reports go...and it wasn't a white van.

"PC Reasons"? Like, say, wanting to avoid lynchings? You're awful quick to find fault there Claymore. Chief Moose all of a sudden found himself the most visible and under-pressure cop in your entire country the past few weeks, and look at all the false leads there were. Obviously he didn't say everything he knew, but I never heard him say anything stupid or inflammatory either. I'd have kept the cards pretty close till time to play the hand.

W-O


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:13 AM

Does skin color matter? As long as they get them that's all that counts.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:20 AM

I think they may have the right people. I Hope they do. I also hope there aren't others out there waiting to strike for the purpose of confusion.
g


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:22 AM

They recovered the gun from the car where they found the men sleeping. It was Montgomery, Alabama, where there was a liquor store crime connection. One female liquor store employee died in that shooting and another seriously wounded. They guy called the tip line earlier and said they should check on Montgomery, Alabama, and the liquor store shooting... he was bragging about it. (Heard on NPR NEWS this morning and is also being reported on the online news sites.)


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:22 AM

That's a good point.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

Well, I was wrong on all counts except one, and that was the military connection. Also somewhere along the way it occurred to me there were two people involved.

I'm wondering...... if the older man didn't do the first few shootings, and the boy did the last two.... I dunno.

I doubt that anyone actually SAW these people in action. By the time anyone heard a shot and looked around, they were already on their way.

And again..... we don't know yet that These Are Them. I think it's a pretty good bet, but let's not count all the eggs just yet.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:49 AM

What about the white van?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:54 AM

Let's just hope this puts a wrap on it. There is enough trouble without these pointless random killings.

I hate to say it, but it's the known religious affiliation (Islamic), of at least the older man, that is going to make a lot of peoples' lives difficult.

Motive? What's the motive? That'll be the next phase of the story. I get a sinking feeling just thinking about that.

W-O


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:01 PM

I still hold that they were terrorists, even if they were not affiliated with a recognized organization. Call them terrorist sympathizers. I just hope they got the right guys.

DougR


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:25 PM

white van:..for a long time, the ONLY possible clue was witnesses who 'thought' they saw a white truck or van that was suspicious. Of course, police had to look at that!

It now seems that these guys were never in a white truck, and that may have been why they were able to go so long. It would be interesting to discover that they actually went thru a couple roadblocks.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM

I don't think the gun in the car was the sniper weapon, not sure. WHite van not mentioned, either.. film at eleven...


A


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:41 PM

The report is that the gun found in the car is a Bushmaster .223, a very high quality version of the M-16. There is a "Varminter" version, setup with scope and all as well. It may not be the rifle, but it certainly fits the description....and would be very capable of doing the job.

What has just come out is that the killing in Montgomery, Alabama, was NOT done with the same weapon as what was used in DC.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 12:53 PM

And it could very well be, these guys are responsible for the AL murder, and not for the sniper murders at all. Again, I dunno. We'll just have to see.

I thought I heard something about the murdered AL woman's credit card being stolen, and it had something to do with the request for the 10 million dollars, but I haven't seen anything else about that.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 01:56 PM

this is the right one to post to.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Chip2447
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 02:29 PM

Evidently, the cars trunklid had a hole cut in it to allow the weapon to be fired from inside the car, one driving, or preparing to drive, and the other as the shooter.
http://www.cnn.com/


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM

The reporting on and hysteria created by the media surrounding this case has been appalling. I have been really shocked by the number of friends and relatives who have been sucked in by the yellow journalist circus.

I have close relatives who live and work and have children attending Montgomery County schools. I have a close friend who's family lives in Baltimore & VA, work in the area, etc. None of them has been sucked in by the circus. A friend of my daughter's home last weekend from George Washington U said the same thing--utter hysteria that they themselves hadn't bought into. Our close relatives who live in Montgomery County are both professional TV people (both used to work for DC network affiliate stations). They were the first to tell us not to worry, and just turn off the news.

So this is what we've come to as a society--the lowest common denominator--ambulance chasing, pulling over to watch the car wreck, and racing to follow the fire engine to watch somebody's house burn down.

I'm so proud to be an American.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:02 PM

I too have relatives in the area, Snide One. They kept on with their lives, and did so despite a muted sense of terror that the places they felt were normal and routine to them had suddenly become untrustworthy and possibly lethal. I am sure the last six victims had made similar decisions. The attention on the "circus" as you call it, is a result of caring about humans in harm's way, at least in my case, and a hope that a rampant psychosis can be brought to bay and under control. Of course it is human nature to have a dangerous situation fix the attention more than a routine one, and the media, certainly, makes big business of playing on this fact. But that is not what is in the hearts and minds of individuals that I see being concerned.

Your misttribution of motive to others reflects badly on your anonymous self.

A


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:31 PM

Amos, and why is it that they weren't cowering in the corner of their living room in terror from all the other gun related murders which happen every damn day? Which happened before the sniper(s) started shooting, were happening at the same time as the sniper shootings, and will continue to happen in future, all over the area, hmmmm? Oh right--that is just everyday random gun violence. Yawn. No thrills, no chills, no chases--it just ain't sexy.

WAAAAAYYYYY too many people got sucked into this media frenzy, which feeds right into people's lack of impulse control when it comes to getting any ole cheap thrills from their TV addictions. You never have to get off the couch, except to feed your face, and it gives everyone oh so much to rant about at the office.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:35 PM

Actually, I've decided this "let's cover the most sensational stories we can find" crap cable journalism to be the culprit. They need to pull in the advertisers somehow, and the major networks get all the election industry advertising, so what is a poor cable news director to do to sell time at the highest rates?

Answer: create a perpetual media circus with a cheap dime store crime novel mentalite. It really works! Look at all the people who fall for it!


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 04:52 PM

Well, GUEST, you do have a little bit of a point. There are other murders going on all the time and we don't think anything about it. BUT most of those don't seem as random as these, so there's a little added scariness to it. Most of the time, at least where I live, people who get murdered are already into some trouble.... drug deals, excessive drinking, fighting... not pumping gas or carrying shopping bags to the car.

We all pump gas and carry shopping bags to the car. That's why it's scary. Because it could be any one of us.

The first shot, where no one was hurt, was at a Michael's. I go to Michael's all the damn time. Who'd want to shoot at a bunch of harmless craft junkies in a craft store, fercryinoutloud?

Again... Any one of them, could be any one of us.

However, I do agree with you about media overexposure. They do it all the time and it does bug the shit out of me. Just give me the facts, I want the facts, I don't need the drama. And for Pete's sake don't give me the facts until you know they're FACTS! I hate these stories about "a man was found dead today... police have released no other details." Well, wait till they release the details and THEN run the story.

Okay, end of rant.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:04 PM

Instead of spending all their time glued to 24/7 coverage on Fox News and CNN, people could REALLY get something to think about if they went to see Michael Moore's new documentary "Bowling for Columbine".

About 15,000 gun murders a year happen in the US, and 30% of those murders are random violence where the perpetrator and victim don't know each other. That is roughly 4,500 murders per year. Divide by 52, and you get approximately 86 random violence murders per week in the US. That DOES NOT include people murdered with a gun during the commission of a crime. That is another couple thousand per year.

Then there is suicide with a gun. A few less than by murder, in the 10,000 to 15,000 per year range. And then there are the accidental shootings, like when small children kill small children with big brother's or daddy's hand gun--another couple thousand a year.

I heard some figure (can't remember the exact figure now, of course) in the last day or two of the number of murders in the DC area in the last month while the sniper shootings were going on. For some reason, the number 20 sticks in my mind.

Perspective people, perspective.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM

A good point, Guest. However the fact that this clown was focused in a small radius, relatively, put the stats WAY above normal for that area, which is one reason why it got so much attention; the other factor being that it was an intentiuon series by the same person.

But I concur the medioa made a circus out of it; and that is of late completely normal modus operandi for them. Electrify, stir up, scare, agitate, irritate, rake up muck, find the least beautiful events and expand on them at length, etc., etc. Willie Randolph Hearst School of Yellow Journalism.

A


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:32 PM

The DC sniper shootings were a local crime case, nothing more, nothing less. There was never any reason for this to become a national/international news story.

As to the media circus aspect of it Amos, you seem to be missing the point. The conservative media, which functions solely as a megaphone for government and corporate interests, is able to do business like this because WE allow them to get away with it. Those airwaves belong to us, and we let them use the public airwaves for virtually nothing, and ask for nothing in return for that except that they serve the public interest every now and then, like DURING ELECTIONS.

And this is how corporate media serves the public interest. That makes me incredibly angry. In fact, every time I sit down and try and watch corporate television "news" I get angry, because they aren't reporting the news, they are acting as a megaphone for government and big business. They are doing their best to keep to the news away from us. And it really pisses me off. Especially when we already chewed up the normally very important election news month of September with 9/11 shit. Then, the Axis of Evil charade. And now the stinking sniper crap.

Meantime, how many people do you know who have lost their jobs in the last year or two? How many people do you know who have lost substantial investments in the tanking stock market? Anyone know anyone who worked for Enron, WorldCom, Qwest, etc ad nauseum who has lost their jobs?

And how about that oil? Anyone know who Cheney set US energy policy with in his secret meetings yet? NO? Well, why do you suppose you don't know that yet, when the courts have said Cheney has tell the American people the whole story?

Tune in at 11:00 and see what you find out.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:40 PM

Interestingly enough, in what I consider a rather big surprise and a sign of hope, the local station asked folks to register "yes" or "no" to something like: Is the media glorifying the sniper with all of its coverage? The result was a resounding 95% who said YES!


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:49 PM

Guest, IMHO, you ought to take a retreat somewhere, and just be quiet for a coupla weeks. A psychotic killer on the loose, with a bent for being accurate with military precision IS newsworthy, and your over media'd conspiracy caper is your problem whether you like it or not. Sure, the timing stinks badly... Sure, I wonder what someone would would need to be paid to do random high profile military style ambush assasinations...

But if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If the media decided (as it often does) to cover this up, and turn a deaf ear to it... Really... do you want that? I doubt it, tweeker...

ttr


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:17 PM

Chill People, they are now in custody. The time to be upset is when the legal system lets them go free...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM

Well, I certainly hope that Al Queda hasn't been watching this because they could repeat it anywhere they wanted and with the media ready and willing to become accomlices we have a purdy dangerous situation on your hands...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:49 PM

Mmmmmm ! And what ever happened to the concept of a free trial and innocent until convicted by a jury of your peers ?

Gareth


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:51 PM

Peers?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 06:56 PM

Peers = Equals, OK Corrupted in the UK by reference to the House of Lords.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 07:00 PM

Hopefully, (haha) the media will show some restraint. If not, there will not be a courtroom in the country where these two (assuming they are indicted) can be guaranteed a fair trial. GUEST has a point. When they are let go on a technicality...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 07:16 PM

These guys are as good as dead and ya' can take that to the bank. I'd rather stuff 'em in cages and take 'em around the country like freeks in a traveling circus and let folks vent on them, but not *vent* them. Might od fact, I'd like to see more public humiliation and embarrassment for criminals at all levels and a lot less jailing and fining. Nevermind, I'm thread creeping a tad here....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST,SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 07:33 PM

Agreed, Bobert, almost. I would prefer to see them put quietly away and never given the opportunity to enjoy publicity again. Same for Manson et al. But I have very vivid memories of OJ walking away scot-free.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:32 PM

How long til the apologists kick in?

"Poor man was sick, oppressed etc."

I was pumping gas this afternoon, enjoying not having to duck walk around the pump. I mentioned my joy to another gas pumper, and she started to cluck cluck about the poor teenaged boy, who was obviously under the influence of his cruel step-father yada, yada, yada... I didn't say anything, but later (after she was LONG gone!) I came up with the perfect comeback: "I can't get my kid to cut the grass and this guy gets his to drive a murder getaway car?"


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:53 PM

... and now the forensic folks have positively linked their rifle to the murders and other shootings.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST,sympathy
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:14 AM

Don't be too hard on the people who react with statistically unjustifiable terror. Weird thing: low-risk, high-harm situations regularly produce more widespread and intense anxiety than high-risk, high-harm situations. Probably has to do with the loss of control that comes with unpredictability.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: bflat
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 12:23 AM

May it be so. I do believe that many people felt vulnerable, that they could also have been the random victim and that response led to the rising fear. Considered it myself and had some concerns. Could there possibly be a galvinizing of effort to give support/demands to further gun control laws as a result of this mayhem or will we sink into complacency in a few days?

I hope the victim's families find some peace.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 02:10 AM

Ellen, don't hold your breath on gun control. Even while the snipe hunt (sorry, sniper hunt) was in full force, an NRA spokesman was heard on NPR arguing against "fingerprinting" guns, because it would make it more difficult for all the people who need guns for "self-defense and sport". Hey, even Bush finally changed his mind on that one.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 04:19 AM

From over this side of the pond it (the arrests) would appear to be the result of good police work, excellent co-operation between the different law enforcement agencies involved and the public.

Didn't actually see in the press coverage over here where the blue Caprice and the registration number came into the equation. Was this input from one of the other crime scenes? There was something reported regarding a Federal firearms offence, which apparently is what's holding them in custody at the moment.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:02 AM

This is an example of good police work. Cheif Moose and the task force did its work well and quickly - Thank God!

The Federal Firearms offense would have been the frst most likely thing to charge them with, until they work out what the charges are going to be. Then they've got to figure out where to prosecute (and I'm sure there'll be planty of discussion on that). Several states will want to prosecute as well as the Feds.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:45 AM

Crime novels and "true crime" genres of books are perennial best sellers. The type of folks who read that stuff often (though not always) go in for the "Cops" and "Americas Most Wanted" shows too. It is a certainly personality type that gets into this stuff, and at least some of them are obviously tuned to Fox, CNN & MSNBC, because those are the channels most guilty of the sensationalist coverage. Let's face it, the 24/7 world of anything is news has some serious drawbacks for certain kinds of people.

I don't think it has anything to do with the low risk/high risk factor though, guest sympathy. I think it is just some people's lurid fascination with the morbid and macabre, and the fact there is always some Barnum willing to give them what they crave. But I do think control issues, and by extension the unpredictability factor, do enter into the interest in this particular case. But then, what was the reason for the same sort of coverage last summer of the child abductions?

My sister (who is one of those types of people I describe above, who has been addicted to the coverage) tells me CNN (?) came out with a survey of DC area residents which showed less than half the people changed the way they conducted themselves during the past few weeks, and then even less people thought they were personally at risk, etc.

Hysteria and fear are highly contagious among certain types of people. My sister is one of them.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 09:49 AM

GUEST, it's not just national news, but INTERnational news. I listen to a German talk radio station during the day, and they've been talking about it, and playing sound bites, etc.

It may be just another local crime case..... but the circumstances are a little more unusual than someone getting shot in a robbery or a drug deal.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:07 AM

So, because it isn't an ordinary random murder, that justifies it becoming international news? How so? And please Kim C, know I'm not being snide here. I'm genuinely to curious to know why people think this SHOULD be a national or international news story.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:09 AM

Because it makes a good story?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:43 AM

Watching traffic jams live on television made a good story? Watching talking heads sitting under the media tents made for compelling viewing?

I dunno. On the nights I even tried to watch the reporting, with the film footage of the gas stations in the background, and the traffic standstills in the background, and talking heads talking over it saying nothing, I didn't find it even remotely interesting.

And then there were all the "ex" experts. An ex-this and an ex-that trotted out to tell us EVERYTHING about the snipers. Except of course who they were, where they were, and why they were doing it.

The forensic psychologists, and former cops and FBI agents literally put me to sleep. As in snoring. Including and especially DURING the chase. I even fell asleep watching the Friday morning shooting a week ago. Or was it two weeks ago. I mean, fell asleep on the couch and woke up when the phone rang. Same thing was on TWO HOURS LATER as was when I fell asleep. A traffic jam, with a lot of white vans being pulled over, and the drone of talking heads...

Maybe it's me, but I didn't find it to be an interesting story, much less a good one.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: 53
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:07 AM

I hope that this is it.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Peg
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:08 AM

I was quite shocked to hear that these two men had a Muslim affiliation. This completely went against my single white sociopath profile. Very surprising. I fear the fallout from this will be almost as upsetting as the events themselves.

But I do think one good result will be that the media will stop promulgating fear by covering this 24-7...that last couple of days with the "your children aren;t safe" crap just made me want to beat my head against a wall...so maybe now we wil hear about the other important news stories, like the Russian hostage crisis or the crumbling economy?...on second though, nawww....

Do see Bowling for Columbine, everyone; it has opened in major cities by now.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:18 AM

It opens this weekend I think. I've been waiting. It opened in limited cities a couple weeks ago.

I would really just like to get some election coverage. Never before has the Democrat/Republican balance of power between executive and legislative branches been so precariously divided, the economy teetering on the brink, and the administration forging ahead with the "guns blazing" swagger towards what will be a very unpopular war, and the media can't cover anything but a local DC crime story.

As to the so-called "Muslim" connection--puhleez! Instead of a red under every bed it's a Muslim terrorist.

It's almost like all the corporate media feels the need to do is collect the ad revenues, and let the ad wars be the "public debate."


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM

Anyone who thinks the media is done covering this doesn't remember the chase/pursuit of another white vehicle with two black men in it, and the media circus THAT trial produced...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: YOR
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:25 PM

Yeah, no kidding guest. I mentioned to my wife last night that were going to here about this for years to come. Every stinking detail. I'm more of the 'just give me the highlights and the outcome' type. But the media's going to play the NBC Dateline game, take an hour to do a 5 to 10 minute story.

One good point, the Maryland courts do not allow cameras. Maybe it will only be a two ring circus. Not!

I think we should get the teenager to sing the song about his mentor. Then us Marylanders will find him a small liflong jailcell for the SOB!

Roy


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:38 PM

I couldn't believe NPR this morning. I was driving to go get breakfast when they came on with the ER room docs for the shooting of the last man who survived. They had them describe in vivid detail the extent of the man's stomach injuries. It was invasive, in extreme poor taste, and revolting. All done in the manner of "here's the wonderful team who saved this man's life and might one day save yours, too; listen to these gory details!" I turned it off and have written them a letter.


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 02:42 PM

But Roy--they are doing SO MUCH better with the coverage now. Why, the day of the capture, they had a relative of a victim on in the morning, and family of the perps on Larry King Live by last night! They don't need no steeenking cameras in the courtroom!

Now that they've caught someone (note I don't say they caught the snipers please, I do still believe in due process even though I know I'm being hopelessly naive) we'll get the perpetual replays of the blood splattered bench, the blood spattered vans and cars, the blood spattered sidewalk in front of school, all while the talk drivel.

And who will save our souls, do ya s'pose?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

I'm not saying that I've taked to several buddies who worked in three of the Departments involved in the case, but here's a couple of predictions.

1. The PC issue will hit big in a couple of days... a couple of investigators were so mad about the Chief clamping down on the race issue, that they leaked the ID's to the press, who went with the story and forced the Chief to reveal the ID's to the press at 11:55 pm (after the papers went to bed) so the story would not recieve much coverage until the next day. Of course, we now know that a citizen, hearing the "sensationized" story on the news, found the vehicle at a truck stop some 30 miles from my location and promptly called it in. No lynch mob here... Again, since they would not "know" the race of the snipers until they were arrested, they would still have had more than enough grounds to release that information after listening to the language and use of verb tenses in the suspect tapes, and written letters. And again, they were located three hours after a late night press release.

2. The "What did they know and when did they know it" story will soon become the day's news, much like Sept. 11th. (Example question: Unless the Bushmaster has the EXACT same lands, grooves, twist, ejector and extractor, magazine spring and loading lip system as the other .223 weapon manufacturers, they knew the make of the weapon by the first week, after they found the first three rounds and the single cartridge at the third scene. This would also indicate that that may have been the only time the sniper(s) fired from outside the car).

3. As much as I used to hate the press (even when I was the Department PIO), they closed the case when the Chief wouldn't/couldn't. As I noted above, a couple of units forced the Chief's hand, and the "sensationalized" coverage caused a man driving alone, at two oclock in the morning, to call in the tag. Ain't we a great country or what?

4. As to the other comments about the coverage, there were numerous times when I heard coverage detailing the Angry White Man theory on my TV, when I said to myself "Only f**king idiots will believe this" and just turned the channel...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM

Leave it to ignorance to show its ugly face.

The race of the perps has nothing to do with this. Nothing. Tim McVeigh was a Catholic, so was Hitler. ANY discussion of this tragedy in these terms is pathetic and unforgiveable.

Chief Moose did an excellent job. I am surprised to hear Claymore say anything to the contrary. I would have thought you would have focused instead on the ridiculous way that the administrators run investigations these days, and how they play to the media to the detriment of good police work. This investigation should have been left in the hands of the Detectives and Agents running the investigation. The media has absolutely no right to know any information other than what has to be disclosed to keep the public safe. There is no need for daily press conferences, and as far as I am concerned, any "unnamed source" that lets information out to the media should be prosecuted. Information should be on a need to know basis, and there is no "need to know" that the media has until it is over.

I was a few miles away from the last shooting when it occurred. I tried to leave the area (from staying an extra day after the Getaway to see Seamus Kennedy play and have dinner with my good friends from FSGW)but within a very short time the entire area was locked down. Roadblocks on major arteries, Police Officers at most major intersections scanning cars. They were magnificent in the execution of their plan. I ended up getting some breakfast and hanging out reading a paper until the roads opened.

Start to finish, with a very smart perp committed to killing, it took less than two weeks to apprehend this nutcase. The demagogic bullshit about missing him once, and missing the young man once, is just that...............bullshit. They did not have the appropriate information yet, and once they had it, they acted on it. These men and women literally pulled the proverbial needle out of the haystack.

I tire of the criticism. Was it a perfect investigation? Nope, never is and any good cop knows that. It is always a matter of good investigative technique, follow up, and being ready for the lucky break and acting on it appropriately. They did this and I am proud of them.

Even it it does come out that they held back, the assumption should not be that it was racially motivated. That is an old pile of shite.

Mick


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM

And a fair and free trial ???? - Don't mistake me, or my oppinions, but if we are to seperarte the luntic/terrorist fringe from civilisation - don't decide who is guilty before the evidence goes to a court.

Gareth

"not for them a judge and jury,
not for them a trial at all,
being (insert ethnical group of choise) means they are guilty ...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: YOR
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 10:56 PM

The evidence (public evidence, anyway) sure seems to show he is slime!

The high school kids were practicing on the football field on my way home from work today. First time I saw that in three weeks. Go team!


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 01:47 AM

We tried to get into Bowling for Columbine day before yesterday, but couldn't get in: huge lineups in Vancouver BC. The pre-coverage suggested that Moore's thesis for the enormous (relative to Canada & Europe) number of homicides in the US was that Americans are basically a fearful people. That sorta makes sense to me in terms of the big history - a succession of things to fear from the Yellow Peril, the White Slavers, the Communists, the Alien Agitators, and now the Terrorists and the Iraqis (what did the Iraqis ever do to the US?). Here's a question for Americans: do you think this is true, that there has always been a fear of the Other? Is there anywhere in the country where people don't routinely lock their doors, cars, etc. (which my family pretty much don't do here)? Surely there was a time in the US where folks were more relaxed about these things?

The local paper suggested that one cause for the strings of murders like this one is military training. An "expert" (David Grossman), "a former US military psychologist who helped develop programs to train new recruits to become more effective killers said that the key to military training lies in breaking down the natural human aversion to killing in a process he calls "disengagement". Once this aversion has been removed, it never comes back, and can make it easier for former soldiers to become murderers. 'The ability to watch a human being's head explode and to do it again and again - that takes a kind of desensittization to human suffering that has to be learned', (he) said...."   Is there anything in this, former US soldiers?


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:53 AM

Do any of you think JFK's assasination was overly media'd? I just plain don't follow the train of thought that many of us are on here. Assasins with high powered rifles in daily society is outrageous. The fact that we USA people live in an INCREDIBLY violent gun toting society does not make anything OK. Surely no one here can tell me that this is normal behavior... and I mean the whole violence thing... what is it with US anyway?

Maybe it is all so frustrating and unsatisfying, that people are just pissed off all the time! Since we are the wealthiest people ever to be on earth... would it be logical that we would also be the most civilised and peaceful? Aren't we setting the example?

The point.
Terrorism is a daily occurance in this country. It is condoned, and encouraged, everyday by our competitive socioeconomic ethos. Dualistic jargon is constantly emminating outwards from our core beliefs. We live in a constant state of pseudo-fear, and none of us deserve it. Now,... give guns to all who will take them... You don't have to be a rocket scientist to... Peace... ttr


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM

Sorry Big Mick, but you and I have got to disagree on this one. (I've been sick from work a couple of days, so I just found your response.)

Smart Perp? These guys were idiots. Calling a tip-line (which are always recorded) to remind them about a previous case? Several times?   Leaving misspelled notes, with Jamacian patois, demanding 10 million to be wired to a stolen credit card account? Sleeping in truck stops? Wanting the police to set up an 800 number for them to call? Hey, I guess that passes for clever to the civilians...

PC? Why do you think the Feds have taken the case from Maryland and given it to Virginia? While the trial track-records on the death penalty have much to do with it, there are plenty of mad cops about the deaths in Virginia, while they were searching for white guys in white vans. And obviously if I figured out that the perps were black long before they were caught, I must be racist too...

Finally, though the media types from Montgomery County have been having a field day with Moose, virtually no other Police Department has joined in... and other cops leaked the look-outs that caught these guys, one and a half hour later. That should tell you something.

And by the way Mr.Bartlett, did anybody ask this expert twit, why is it that the vast majority of serial killers were not allowed in the military in the first place, or were kicked out early after a career as a mechanic and a water-boo driver, as in Mohammads case? Now thats shite...


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM

Sounds like you got all this information first hand Claymore? Take it easy there my friend... I'll betcha one plane ticket to Sarajevo (loser goes) that there is much more to this sniper account than meets the eye, right now... Then again, maybe we will never know who really was behind it... I'm completely in the dark on this one, but golly miss molly, sompin' stainks 'bout dis.. or yeu gotta cauld in yer dose...?;^)
ttr


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Subject: RE: DC sniper; looks like they may have him?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:39 PM

Thanks for your response, Claymore - certainly calling the guy an "expert" doesn't make him one, I agree. But what I was asking was about US military training, specifically is it true that "the key to military training lies in breaking down the natural human aversion to killing"? If you have US military training (or if others have had military training) can you/they enlighten me about this please.

We got in to see Columbine last night. A great movie, I thought as I watched it, and then over time, last night, today, thinking and talking about it, I thought more and more that he got it wrong, EXCEPT for the fear bit. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people", the standard defence I've always heard for no open gun ownership, he suggests is TRUE (I don't know if he knows he's doing it). He interviews Charlton Heston, and points out that Canada has way more guns per capita than the US but doesn't commit 1% of the murders. Why not? he asks. Heston didn't know but thought the "ethnic mix" might be part of the answer. (This is certainly not true in Canada with a very wide ethnic mix). This should have been the centre of the movie, but in my view Moore was all over the map, attacking and defending gun ownership at the same time. The point I took from it all is the fear question I brought up in the earlier post. Why are Americans so fearful, as compared to e.g. Canadians? Are they, in fact, more fearful? Crime is going down, but the fear seems continually to mount.

Jon Bartlett


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