Songwriting Standards

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:52 PM

You folks might find this site interesting:

Bad Poetry

Supposedly, it features bad poetry that's not necessarily by bad poets.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:16 PM

It is interesting too, even on a quick glance. Thanks Genie. The best bad poetry tends to be by good poets having the day off. The same way it's much funnier seeing a brilliant skater fall over than a beginner.

And as well as the pleasure of seeing the star fall, sometimes there's the pleasure if second-guessing the critic who has dismissed something that doesn't at all deserve to be dismissed.

Strangely "The Stuffed Owl" by Wyndham Lewis, a classic collection of bad poems, mostly by people who should have known better, doesn't seem to be on the net. Project Guttenberg clearly has a long way to go.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:08 PM

I try to explain songwriting to young people....A song comes like an E mail..the talent is in knowing it's arrived...the craft is in downloading it.

And avoiding the unasked for scams from Nigera, invitations to visit sex sites and places to buy Viagra. *Smiles* ....Do I feel a song coming on?

The anology was a good one though.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:31 PM

Do those Viagra pushers send their email to everyone? (I thought I was special.)

Genie

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:28 PM

"Wheh you're at an open stage pay as much attention to the bad performers as the good ones. You'll learn what NOT to do."
-- Fred Holstien--

That can be as easily applied to songwriting as anything else.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:02 PM

joni mitchell has an extensive body of work. doesn't anyone think it's worthwhile?

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:22 AM

Most certainly. Clouds (Both Sides Now) is a song that is about as good as one song can be. This may sound a bit of a paradox, but I feel the merits of this song tend to be overlooked because of the popularity of the author and success of the song. Or possibly because it is too indentfied with the time it was most popular? Sad for it really is a timeless song.

Wheh you're at an open stage pay as much attention to the bad performers as the good ones. You'll learn what NOT to do."
-- Fred Holstien--

That can be as easily applied to songwriting as anything else.

That is very true. Jeri's point was there is the difference between the quality of the song and our personal preferences. But I suppose if you learn what not to do, as a matter of personal preference, you will help develop your own style and the effect will be the same as learning from a poor performance or a bad song.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:40 AM

Both Sides Now

Looking at just the words again, it is even better than I remembered it. But given personal preference again, this means I am sure, that someone will now honestly post and say the song is crap?

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 07:29 AM

Not me mate. "Something's lost and something's gained in living every day," is the sort of line which I have always wanted to write, but never will.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 07:59 AM

Many have influenced me, and still do. Even crap songs that I hear can influence my songwriting brain positively. I share the admiration of many for the writings of Randy Newman, Tom Lehrer, early Bob Dylan, Stan Rogers etc etc etc.

But for my money, nobody stands above the combination of Clive James (lyrics) and Pete Atkin (music). Not many have heard them (or of them), and I wonder: do they not feel the emptiness of never having heard the "Thirty year man", "Carnations on the roof", "Girl on a train", "A king at nightfall"?

The rhymes are both innovative (almost Tom Lehrer standard) and impeccable. The imagery of the lines haunting. Several have entered my everyday vocabulary and have become my "sayings" ("the art is not to try and stop the sliding - but to find a graceful way of staying slid" from "the Hypertension Kid" is one of my favourites; "I'd kill that kid, if she wasn't killing me" from the "Thirty year man" another, though you have to hear it in context to appreciate it; and my top favourite from "King at nightfall", urging the deposed king: "Put out your hand for shaking, not for kissing" again, better in context). And Pete Atkin draws on such a vast experience and is not afraid to use extra chords where they will augment the lyric, yet still sounds economical - until you try to sing his songs!

But so much good stuff has been, and is being written, by so many...And will be written, too. My biggest regret when I go - and I want this for my epitaph - is "not hearing those songs - that nobody has written yet; the notes that haven't been collected into tunes - still waiting out there, like the sand among the dunes"...

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 06:57 PM

I don't believe that we have really got so far in this thread without the word 'navel' appearing once!

Very nice that we have and it has been a fine thread.

'The dizzy dancing way you feel'.

Having sung it through a few times, I eventually noticed that the DT version of Both Sides Now, is not the song I remember. In fact I did not notice for some time that where it should be 'air' it appears there as 'sky'.

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: Genie
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 10:00 PM

Ooh! You're right, Shambles! It SHOULD be " ...ice cream castles in the air...."
Actually, there are a couple more (minor) errors in the lyrics as posted in the DT.

Gotta tell Dick G.

Thanks,
Genie

Subject: RE: Songwriting Standards
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 04:08 AM

I was reading through this post yesterday (Wednesday), but didn't get round to adding to it, just distilling the comments and my own feelings down to one choice --- Guy Clark. In terms of story-telling, melody and feel for a song he's been my hero since before I even knew that I could write songs. So then last night I was doing my compere thing at Roots@Zak's where Liz Simcock was the night's main attraction (Click here to see and hear more). Suffice to say that she's a damn fine singer/songwriter/guitarist herself. Anyway, I'd started the evening with a couple of my own songs, and at the end of the night Liz told me how much she liked my songs and said "I don't know if you've ever heard of Guy Clarke, but you remind me a lot of him". Wow! What a compliment -- it made what was already a great night even better. (Sorry for blowing my own trumpet, but I just needed to share it with people who'd know what I was talking about!)

BJ