Old German Violins: info sought

Subject: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 04:48 PM

The neighbor I play country-western with is an inveterate yard sale goer and has come up with a couple of German violins he'd like to know more about. Both have 2-piece backs, one says Gosep Gruberle,Mittenwalder Handarbeit, Germany, Stradivarious Model; the other says Hans Shuster, Beignmatcher, Mittenwald, Germany, No. 117, and the date, 1959. He collects stringed instruments, got both of these violins for about $35 ea.

Can some knowledgeable fiddleperson or German Mudcatter point me in the right direction for background on either of these instruments?

Thanks, from me (ex-Arkie) and my Okie neighbor

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 04:50 PM

Yes, contact JR Judd, a luthier here who studied in Germany with masters and knows his history.
If he asks that they be shipped to him to evaluate, trust him.

http://www.jrjuddviolins.com

~Susan

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

Thanks, Susan...I'll contact him right now.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:13 PM

Hans Schuster violins are still made, and are supposedly good for intermediate students. One of the major manufacturers.
Obviously, that makes them too good for country-western---OUCH!

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: MudGuard
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:18 PM

Could that be:

Josef Gruberle or Joseph Gruberle?

Josef is a common German firstname, it is sometimes spelt with f and more often with ph.

And
Hans Schuster, Geigenmacher?

Schuster is a common German surname, it means shoemaker.
Geigenmacher would be violin maker.

Mittenwald is a town about 120km (75 miles) south of Munich (where I live). Mittenwald has a long tradition in violin making.

MudGuard

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:46 PM

To GUEST-Q...He's told me he's already played Turkey in the Straw on one of them and "it sounds purty good!"

To Guest and Mudguard, thanks for clarification...makes searching a lot easier. So far, I've not been able to find anything on Josef (or Gosef) Gruberle. Lots on Gruber, but the composer. But I've found a new Schuster, with case, for $670, which will please my friend, I know. Nobody loves a bargain like a yard-sale afficionado!

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: MudGuard
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:53 PM

I am not a Violin expert, but Schuster is quite a common name, so one Schuster might have built expensive instruments while another may have built cheap ones.

As far as I know, for violins getting old usually increases the prize (if well kept), and if it is dated 1959, it is not really old...

Try Joseph as well as Josef - Gosef does not make any sense as a German firstname... And Gruber and Gruberle makes a difference as well.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:55 PM

Mudlar, I haven't checked out the models and prices, but I believe the $670 is for one of the cheaper models.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 07:28 PM

Mudlark, David Bromberg can likely answer your questions. He is now in Wilmingtn Delaware.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:05 PM

Susan, JR Judd was a partner of a man he apprenticed with and they came here and set up a business together. The other guy was Emos Laer Parc, a Scandanavian, and they met while both were young apprentices. The two of them eventually split with each other with Parc continuing on with a very high dollar and high quality violin.

Parc was killed by one of his customers about 5 years ago. Actually, it was the father of a young man who was known to be an up and coming violinist. They had sought out Parc and he made them a very custom model which by all reports was exceptional. The boy was quite satisfied I guess but about a year later he failed to take a first place in a junior competition in New York City. Evidently the father couldn't believe this was any fault of the boy and blamed it instead on the violin.

The father and son went to Parc's shop on numerous occasions and although the boy was polite according to others who witnessed these scenes, the father was adamant that Parc's fiddle had been the kid's undoing and that he should have purchased one of the better known European models. Parc offered to make any adjustments the son might want, but refused to refund the money. I guess he had several well known violinists play the instrument and they all confirmed it's quality and sound.

The final meeting came one night when the father showed up unexpectedly and shot Parc with a .357.....in front of witnesses. The trial was pretty quick and the guy got a life sentence for Second Degree Murder as a result of domestic violins.

   
   

   




   
   
   
   
   

   
Sorry.......(Emos Laer Parc = some real crap)

Spaw

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:34 PM

Spaw...What a story! Is it true? Sounds like some kind of parable about striving too much for imperfection, or ... tales of the Disfunctional-in-Denial Dad.

I've listened to both violins now: the Schuster is in pretty bad shape but sounds great! Incredible how little the cracks seem to matter. The Gruberle is smaller, in much better shape, but pretty thin sounding, not nearly as rich as the Schuster. Looks aren't everything (as I keep reminding myself!)

Will try Joseph, Mudguard, in hopes of finding something on the smaller violin but having heard it, am less interested. The Schuster, which has been thru the mill, is intriguing...

Thanks, Guest and Harpgirl, for input...will follow it up...

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: khandu
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:53 PM

Dear Dear misguided Mudlark,

You have, as many of the rest of us (including myself), fallen for one of the Mudcat's Major Asswhole's (Spaw) terrible jokes. The crazed Ohian will go to any length to get the best of someone. Oh, I will give him this...he is very creative and quite convincing. Some of his tales are worthy of award, amazingly imaginative. But, please remember, when ever you read any post by Spaw, you are subject to be suckered. He has fiddled with your mind!

Please re-read the above post by this twit, read slowly if you must, and you will see that you have been had!

But, do not be embarrassed!!, it has happened to the worst of us!

k

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:11 PM

Don't judge the tone till someone like Judd strings it right. Hardi uses only Thomastik Dominant's, with a Pirastro E. A lot of people use those awful Super Sensitive abominations. Make a good fiddle sound like a fishwife.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 11:42 PM

If you're talking about Thomastik Superflexibles, I wouldn't be too quick to write them off. I'm using them on the current fiddle ("stark" grade, no less!) and it's quite an experience, and ideal for sessions; though not for the tentative player and they do need a strong and confident bow: and a robust violin, for that matter. Dominants would be too mild for my present instrument, I think, though I'd agree about the Pirastro E; I often used the same combination on the instrument I learned on. The tone was nice enough, though I found them uncomfortably thick. I think them over-rated, really, but it's horses for courses, naturally, and they do appeal to a lot of people.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:54 AM

Malcolm, the strings I am talking about sound like they are not the ones you know-- I think they are really called Super Sensitives and I do not know who makes them. These are cheap and often sold to beginners as a string that will magnify every mistake so it can be clearly heard and corrected. They may do that, but they also sound thin and screechy; and they fail to bring out the tone inherent in the instrument.

They make practice sound so awful that it's like aversion therapy for the whole family.   

We like to cure people of using them by handing them Hardi's violin to play. When they realize they are hearing themselves sound so good, that pretty much does it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:08 PM

Whoops! I obviously mis-read what you typed, and quite missed the point; that'll teach me to post late at night (well, actually, it won't, but it should remind me to read twice). Sorry for the confusion. The ones you're talking about sound like the Black Diamonds of the fiddle world, and my previous post should, for practical purposes, be ignored, as it's completely irrelevant.

It seems, though, that there are Super Sensitives and Super-Sensitives; at any rate, I've heard decent reports about some of the latter's product. Are they different companies, or ranges? I realise this hasn't got much to do with German fiddles as such, but it's always useful to have other people's impressions of strings; saves buying a pup, perhaps, at some point in the future.

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:12 PM

Hm, that was interesting-- I'll ask hardi what SS he's seen.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:16 PM

I bet it's the Red Label, bulk packed. Looks kinda generic.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Pioden
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 06:32 PM

Hi - Resurrecting a REALLY old thread, I know, but I just found this site by looking up info on a violin, and recognizing "mudcat" from discussions with other musicians. ANYWAY - In reference to the Hans Schuster - just in case you've not found any more info on it, I'd like to offer some.
Given, a Schuster labeled as follows:

Hans Schuster
Geigenmacher
Mittenwald, Germany
No. 119    1961

This instrument was appraised for insurance purposes (read: not necessarily what it would sell for, but replacement cost for a similar quality instrument), at $2,000 dollars, back in 1998. Granted, the violin has been fairly well kept up, but I hope your friend has theirs looked at and properly repaired, because it is a good instrument.
If you already know this, cool (and it sounds as it you liked the way it sounded).
Pioden

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:31 PM

i have a violin dates 1640 by glass in germany, how do i find out more about it?

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:41 AM

Guest, take it to a violin shop. They will look at it and tell you:

1. it was not made in 1640
2. it was not made by anyone named Glass
3. its approximate age and quality, and if it needs much work and would be worth fixing.

Most of those labels naming a centuries-old date and maker are on reproduction fiddles. Not fakes per se, the label just means that the instrument was patterned after the original referenced by the label. The classic example is Stradivarius-label violins, of which there are literally millions. This was a common practice with commercial fiddle makers for at least a hundred years. Yours may still be old, and it may be a fine instrument--but not that old and probably not as fine as the original. You don't know by the label.   

Enjoy
W-O

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 07:02 AM

More information available from

Geigenbau- und Heimatmuseum
D-82481 Mittenwald
Ballenhausgasse 3

(Museum for violinmaking and the home region)

correct orthography: Joseph Gruberle

no entries found in the local directory nor in the yellow pages (wide area search)for both violinmakers

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: GUEST,Papatorr
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:06 PM

I have a Hans Schuster Model 113 made in 1961, and I, too, would like to know something about it: What level was it originally meant for? As in, beginner, intermidiate, etc.. Was going to sell it, but didn't know how much to ask. Now I'm having second thoughts. The strings are the oldest looking I've seen on a violin. I almost purchased some Red Label Super Sensitive, but decided to ask for advice. Any comments?

Subject: RE: Old German Violins: info sought
From: GUEST,Ron A.
Date: 16 May 12 - 05:06 AM

I have a violin that is inside a kinda wooden picture frame with a glass front,there is a label inside that says,,,Hans Schuster,,geigenmache,,Mittenwald Germany.It also has a no.15 or 115 and says 1958.I know absolutly nothing about violins,but this one is in very,very good condition,dark reddish color,high gloss finish,very well preserved in this sealed wall mount display case.I am looking to sell it,but have no idea what its worth. Does anyone have anyone have any info. on what it might be worth or who i could contact to find out about it

germany
i

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