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BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine

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curmudgeon 06 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 12:20 PM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 12:38 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Taliesn 06 Nov 02 - 12:47 PM
Amergin 06 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 12:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 01:12 PM
DougR 06 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 03:39 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 04:11 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 02 - 04:17 PM
open mike 19 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM
John Hardly 19 Jan 03 - 10:32 PM
toadfrog 19 Jan 03 - 11:48 PM
Deda 20 Jan 03 - 12:13 AM
GUEST 20 Jan 03 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,An pluiméir ceolmhar cookieless 20 Jan 03 - 10:07 AM
toadfrog 20 Jan 03 - 09:06 PM
Rick Fielding 20 Jan 03 - 09:20 PM
GUEST 22 Jan 03 - 09:37 AM
toadfrog 26 Jan 03 - 12:21 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM

Guest -- Our choices are not "right and left," but right and less right, for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:20 PM

I did not intend to demean the USA. The point i'm making is that like the civil war you are polarised into two camps neither of which listens to reason, or wants compromise. Stop attacking each other and work together. Let me use an example; Katlaughing is so vehemently anti Republican she would not vote for one even if he supported gun control. Point made, partisan politics, aka tribal warfare..


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:38 PM

Oh? I wouldn't, huh? Well thank for explaining, I guess there is no need for me to vote, again, as you can do it for me?

For your information, nameless one, I have voted for three different Republicans, in the past.

Also, this thread's original intent was to talk about the movie, NOT as a gun debate thread. We've already done that one, almost to death, pun intended in the thread, "Guns, to my friends at Mudcat."

Haprgirl, you're welcome, you have my sympathies. I'm feeling the same way, now.

Did any of you listen to the Moore interview last night, for which I provided a link? Have any of you had a chance to see the movie, yet, since this thread ABOUT THE MOVIE started?

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:39 PM

No Guest 12:20, you are wrong. One third of the American electorate currently identifies itself as independent, and unaligned with either party. When they vote, they most often vote Republican, which is why any third party fragmentation benefits the Republicans and not Democrats, even though the agendas of some of those third parties, like the Libertarians, Constitutional Party, etc. are virtually identitical to the fundamentalist Republican agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:47 PM

(quote)
"Also, this thread's original intent was to talk about the movie, NOT as a gun debate thread."

Uhm , Micheal Moore's express *purpose* for his movie is *designed* to stimulate the "Gun " debate.
Well obviously his movie has succeeded in its purpose.

You only failed or chose not to notice. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:54 PM

maybe this thread should be linked with all 20,000 gun control threads....


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, Amergin, I guess so...funny, I heard much more in Moore's intent than just this old carping back and forth. Sounds like you heard more, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:08 PM

Long winded bugger that Geoffrey Snyder, without a lot to say - why didn't whoever it is who thinks the man's got something interesting to say just post a brief quote to act as a taster, and put in a link to some place where the whole thing could be read?

Michael Moore seems to be able to say a great deal more in much less space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:12 PM

To much greater effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM

McGrath: your description of the "Pissing Duel" is terrific! Very funny.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM

Just defining your arguments and style of debate kat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 03:39 PM

this thread is also not about me, nor my style of anything

I repeat: anyone else seen the movie, yet? Listened to anymore interviews of Moore?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 03:55 PM

Perhaps you should watch Canadian TV, and tell me why we have so many murders in one week in Toronto?   Why we have shootings monthly, home invasions and stabbings every week in Halifax. Why Montreal has bombings and drive by shootings every week? Vancouver has drug related murders and Asian crime networks?    Yeah Canada is not the fluffy warm friendly neighbor you think. Check out the Pig farm mass murderer trial.... juicy....


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 04:11 PM

Guest 3:55, it is always better to use actual statistics, rather than emotionally laden anecdotes.

The following is from the Canadian government's website on Statistics, which can be found at:
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/020717/d020717b.htm.

Of the 2.4 million criminal incidents, excluding traffic offences, 13% were violent crimes, 52% were property crimes, and the remaining 35% were other offences such as mischief, disturbing the peace, prostitution or arson.

The violent crime rate rose for the second year in a row, although homicides remained stable. The property crime rate continued its long-term downward trend. The crime rate among youth rose for the second straight year (+1%).

Police reported about 309,000 violent crimes in 2001, up 7,000 from 2000. This nudged the violent crime rate up 1%, the second consecutive increase after seven years of decline from 1993 to 1999. Prior to 1993, the violent crime rate had risen each year since 1977. The 2001 violent crime rate was 6% lower than a decade ago, but 52% higher than 20 years ago.

Minor assaults account for almost two-thirds of all violent crimes each year. In 2001, the rate of minor assaults advanced 1% and was the key factor in the rise in the total violent crime rate. The more serious categories of assault - assault with a weapon and aggravated assault - increased 5%, mainly because of a 7% increase in Quebec and a 14% jump in Saskatchewan.

The overall rate of sexual assaults rose slightly (+0.7%), primarily because of an 8% increase in Quebec. However, Quebec still reported the lowest rate among the provinces. The slight increase at the national level was the first increase in sexual assault since 1993. The 2001 sexual assault rate is 27% lower than in 1991.

The more serious categories of sexual assault declined. The rate of sexual assaults with a weapon declined 17% and aggravated sexual assaults dropped 9%.

The robbery rate remained relatively stable in 2001. Robberies involving firearms have been dropping consistently over the past decade, including a 12% decline in 2001; about one in every seven robberies was committed with a firearm. Robberies committed with other weapons, such as knives, increased 4%; robberies not involving any weapon were up 2%.

The rate of criminal harassment, commonly known as stalking, fell 5%, according to data from a group of 95 police services representing 42% of the national volume of crime. However, this rate had increased 45% from 1996 to 2000.

Six provinces and all three territories reported increases in violent crime in 2001. The largest provincial increases were in Saskatchewan (+8%), Nova Scotia (+6%) and New Brunswick (+5%). The largest declines were in British Columbia (-3%) and Manitoba (-2%).

Among the provinces, Saskatchewan and Manitoba reported the highest violent crime rates, and Quebec and Prince Edward Island continued to report the lowest.

Police reported 554 homicides in 2001, eight more than in 2000. Despite the small increase in numbers, the rate remained stable for the third consecutive year at 1.8 homicides for every 100,000 population. In general, the homicide rate has been declining since the mid-1970s. The rate of attempted murders fell 7% in 2001.

All four Atlantic provinces and Quebec reported a decline in homicides; Ontario and all three prairie provinces recorded small increases.

Manitoba had 34 homicides, resulting in the highest homicide rate (3.0 homicides per 100,000 population) for the second consecutive year, followed by Saskatchewan (2.7) and Alberta (2.3). Newfoundland and Labrador, with one homicide, had the lowest rate (0.2), followed by Nova Scotia (1.0) and New Brunswick (1.1).


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM

Actually, there is something interesting going on between the US and Canada in terms of homicide statistics. Domestic homicides of intimates in increasing in Canada, and decreasing every so slightly (which may not be meaningful in the long haul) in the US.

In the US, the group most likely to be murdered by their domestic partner is white women, the group least likely to be murdered by their domestic partner is black males.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 04:17 PM

What I can never understand is the way that policies that have very little to do with each other somehow get bundled up together. So, for example in the USA it appears that gun control is seen as a left wing policy, and opposition to gun control is a right wing policy. And it could just as easily be the other way round, and would be in many parts the world. In the UK not so long ago the big division was between the Tories being pro-Europe and Labour being anti-Europe - and then they changed ends.

It seems to me that the basic division between parties is about ways in which the economy should be run - and that hasn't got anything to do with different views about gun control, or abortion, or drugs, or any number of other social issues, or about foreign policy and all that.

All those are things that divide people and that matter to them - but somehow the assumption seems to be that party divisions based on economic theories just happen to coincide with those divisions, and that an electoral system based on choosing between the resulting parties is in any real way "democratic" when it comes to deciding what to do about these other issues.

It isn't really surprising that an overwhelming majority of Americans don't even consider bothering to vote (rather more people vote in the UK, but not that many, and the percentage is going down all the time.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: open mike
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM

sorry to start a new thread on this--
actually glad i missed some of the
long-winded discussions on this list.
the movie just came to my neck of the
woods, and i just now got the chance
to see it. just wondering if the bowling
alley incident mentioned in the movie is
based on an actual event, or was made up
for the movie. It was mentioned briefly
at the end. I guess the controversity
stirred up by this flick is why the
forum on Michael Moore's website has
been dis-continued.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:32 PM

third article


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:48 PM

McGrath: I agree with you about what the debate between "Left" and "Right" should be. But it just ain't so. People in the United States get passionate about gun control, abortion, gay marriage, marijuana, the Pledge of Allegance and the like. Rural types vote Republican, the cities go overwhelmingly Democratic. Economic issues are definitely second line stuff. Nobody much (except me) seems to care about them. And so far as I can make out, you English are the same. But on that I'm subject to correction.

And if you will excuse the personal note, the last time I noticed you being excited about a U.S. domestic issue, it was about the arrest of an Irish Traveller and her right vel non to keep her children - that is, a lifestyle issue, not an economic one.

My impression of Michael Moore's point of view was not that gun control was the central problem, but an overemphasis on crime, especially crimes committed by Black persons, in the news. He did remark that Canadians seemed to have about the same amount of guns as Americans, but far fewer gun killings. I'm not sure I'm persuaded, but it is an interesting point.

I know Canada definitely restrains reporting w.r.t. pending criminal actions, ostensibly to prevent prejudicing juries. Is it true that crimes get less television play in Canada than in the U.S.?


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: Deda
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:13 AM

I just saw the movie this weekend, and the theater was surprisingly full, even though it's been around for months now. I found the film very troubling, very disturbing, very --- effective, I guess, and affecting. I had trouble sleeping afterwards (I am prone to anxiety these days).

I agree with earlier posts about Michael Moore being brilliant. I agree that the American popular culture, including TV news, and the whole ratings-driven, money-motivated TV culture across the boards, tend to cheapen and degrade life in these United States, and to inculcate and inflame fear. I came away longing for a home where people were valued above profits. on a societal level. Moore makes the point that in Canada, there is high unemployment, but people have access to medical care and decent housing regardless of their income. He showed that the mother of the six year old shooter was a welfare mother who was forced by "welfare-to-work" "welfare reform" to commute hours every day to work two jobs -- so she almost never saw her son, and had to leave him in the care of a relative who obviously wasn't up to the job. One question Moore has asked in interviews is Why does America attack its poor people? It's a great question. He asks a lot of great questions, and he doesn't pretend to have the answers -- which is honest and gutsy, IMHO.

If you haven't seen it, do. But don't expect it to be a fun, escapist night out. It isn't. But it's well worth doing anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:44 AM

The bottom line of all this is so simple...Americans love guns, they have too many of them, they murder each other at alarming rates, they think it is all constitutional. How odd this thinking is. But how very American. I think there is some great flaw in any culture that calls upon one of the great humanitarian documents (The US Constitution) to justify murder, mayhem and collective fear of one"s neighbour. Perhaps the problem lies in the lack of political sophistication that hnours "constitutional rights" but really doesn't understand what they means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST,An pluiméir ceolmhar cookieless
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:07 AM

Outstanding film, and interesting that a feature film was the medium chosen to get the message across.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Charlton Heston's mental faculties in the interview. The reason why it's cringe-making is that the sorry old bastard hasn't got a leg to stand on and hasn't even got the decency to acknowledge the obscenity of organising rallies in Columbine and Flint in the circumstances in which they occurred.

George Orwell said it all, with his depiction of the maintenance of a state of war being necessary to shore up the system by fomenting fear and getting everyone to rally around the flag. The phrase "the military-industrial complex" sounds like the sort of thing that right-wingers would love to deride as liberal garbage if it weren't for the fact that it was popularised by a Republican ex-General and President.

A few days ago in Europe we saw another example of the US-style whipping-up of hysteria that Mike Moore describes. Somebody left a can of petrol and a couple of cylinders of gas (but no detonator or means of ignition) under a seat in the Sacré Coeur basilica. The basilica was evacuated while police disposed of it. The US station CNN whipped this up into a "breaking news" biggie, interrupting their regular programmes and providing repeated updates which told us nothing new. We switched to French TV news to find out what was going on, and get more up-to-date information, but they didn't even bother to cary the story, presumably on the basis that it was just a crank incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: toadfrog
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 09:06 PM

GUEST, 8:44 a.m.: I am not necessarily an advocate for more guns, but I believe Moore says the Canadians have just about as many guns per capita as Americans. So if we believe Moore (which on most points I do) can it be that the "bottom line" is quite as simple a matter as you say it is?

I do think his argument about traditions of violence - that the "Germans" are the violentest of all but don't have nearly so many gun murders - is a bit weak, as it confuses personal violence with political violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 09:20 PM

"Moore says that Canadians have as many guns per capita as Americans"? Did he REALLY say that? Can't see how it would be remotely possible (or even legal) here.

Anybody got any facts on this?

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:37 AM

As a resident of Halifax I find the comments regarding murder and mayhem here inaccurate in the extreme. We have had two home invasions recentlt, one had to do with a divorce case. The other was a truly awful crime. As for daily or weekly stabbing, that is patently untrue. The city has a very low violent crime rate...there were eleven murders all of last years. Half of the people murdered were killed by people they knew..they were not random acts of violence.
   I do think it essential that people get facts right or not make such inaccurate observations. It is widely known that Canada, which includes Halifax, has a MUCH lower murder rate per capita than does the US. We don't claim be violence free, what nation is ? But do seem to have much less of it than Americans do..that is a plain fact and no distortion of stats will change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 12:21 AM

Refresh. Does anyone have an answer to Rick's question? I definitely recall Moore having said that. I too found the statistic surprising.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 16 October 2:01 PM EDT

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