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BS: Obit: the Democratic Party

Bobert 06 Nov 02 - 08:27 AM
Peter T. 06 Nov 02 - 08:33 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 08:35 AM
kendall 06 Nov 02 - 08:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Nov 02 - 08:48 AM
Greg F. 06 Nov 02 - 08:50 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Paula Punditstone 06 Nov 02 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,Taliesn 06 Nov 02 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,George W. Quayle 06 Nov 02 - 09:30 AM
curmudgeon 06 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM
Blues=Life 06 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM
Charley Noble 06 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM
alanabit 06 Nov 02 - 10:01 AM
curmudgeon 06 Nov 02 - 10:04 AM
Wolfgang 06 Nov 02 - 10:16 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 10:17 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM
Bobert 06 Nov 02 - 10:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Nov 02 - 10:28 AM
Peg 06 Nov 02 - 10:29 AM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 10:37 AM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 10:43 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 10:45 AM
curmudgeon 06 Nov 02 - 11:01 AM
Bobert 06 Nov 02 - 11:31 AM
SharonA 06 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM
mg 06 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM
Bobert 06 Nov 02 - 12:16 PM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 12:25 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM
mg 06 Nov 02 - 12:32 PM
kendall 06 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM
katlaughing 06 Nov 02 - 12:41 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM
Little Hawk 06 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 06 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM
Charley Noble 06 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM
NicoleC 06 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM
Stephen L. Rich 06 Nov 02 - 01:14 PM
curmudgeon 06 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 02 - 01:43 PM
DougR 06 Nov 02 - 01:45 PM
SharonA 06 Nov 02 - 01:55 PM

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Subject: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:27 AM

First of all, to all my Dem friends here, I "feel your pain" BUT now is a good time for you folks to think seriuosly about joining your local Green Party.

The Dems have shown here that they have no new ideas and not much different than the other guys and that is why the lost and will continue to loose in the future. They no longer satnd up for a working class who themselves were the biggest loosers in yesterday's election.

The biggest winners: Big Oil, Defense Contractors, Pharacudicals, Mega Corporations.

And one other thing to think about: those statehouses that the Dems won are like mine fields. With shrinking revenues, these Dems will be demonized over the next couple of years as they cut service or raise taxes. That will be the final blow to your party.

Think Green.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:33 AM

From a foreign perspective, it is hard to figure out why the Democrats went so spineless. Spooked by a wartime president, I guess. But you think they might have gone after estate taxes, a surplus wiped out (always seems to be "big spending" Democrats who get the surpluses, and Republicans who go into deficits), AND THE ENVIRONMENT. Go Green.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:35 AM

Greens lost their major party status in Minnesota in this election Bobert. Despite my voting for them in nearly every race where they had a candidate, I don't think that voting Green will save us from the fascists who are now in control of business and government.

It truly is more complicated than that. Profoundly more complicated than that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:39 AM

We made a little progress here in Maine. We now have a democrat governor. The other offices stayed as they were, two republican senators, and, unless things changed drastically after I went to bed ;last night, two reps to the house.
Bobert, you are right. I am very disappointed in my party. Gephart and Daschle have to go. One is a whinner, the other stands for nothing in particular.
We had a Green running for governor, he got over 10% ran on public funds and lost. It wasn't because he didn't get his message out, it was his personality, and I hope he doesn't run again.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:48 AM

Seventy per cent of Americans entitled to vote did not vote, I gather. That's a pretty overwhelming rejection of the politicians.

In many countries a turn out like that that'd mean the elections would be null and void and they'd have to run another one.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:50 AM

And again:

"No one ever went broke underestimating

the intelligence or taste of the American people."

H. L. Mencken


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 08:51 AM

The biggest problem with the Greens is their inexperience with electoral politics, and their stridency over things people already agree with them about.

If we could change the world by showing up to vote every couple years, I think we'd have done it by now. Like I said, the place the murderous US finds itself in today is profoundly complex. It has become such an entrenched global empire that nothing short of the government being overthrown in a revolution can change it, and I don't foresee that happening any time soon. Despite the remote possiblity (statistically nil actually) of our overthrowing the government at the ballot box, no one will ever succeed at doing it.

There are extreme limits on what can be accomplished through electoral politics, because of the ability of politicians to set up a corrupt system, such as the one we have now, that greases the wheel of bribery of the government by the wealthy. The expectation that this can be changed by the beneficiaries of graft, bribery, and corruption voluntarily giving up their wealth and power to help "the little fella" is ludicrous in the extreme, and where I draw the line with liberals like Wellstone.

Change will never come from within the electoral political system. Never. It will only come from the pressures put upon that system from outside of it. And we are a long way from that happening.

Nonetheless, it is the only way to fight the good fight, and what we should be concentrating upon, rather than piecemeal petty "reforms" which get instantly subverted, such as the campaign finance reform bill that takes effect today. John McCain admitted last night that the intent of the law has already been subverted by the two party interests that be.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST,Paula Punditstone
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:02 AM

Hey Bobert, you articulate Republican.

What the hell are "Pharacudicals"?


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:11 AM

BTW, in Minnesota the Republicans swept every major office up for election--the US senate seat, the governor, secretary of state and state auditor, gained in the Minnesota House (which they already control) and cut deeply into the Democratic majority in Minnesota Senate. Greens lost major party status, and though Ventura's third party will retain it's major party status, will likely disappear into the third party graveyard by 2004.

And here, the issue wasn't that nobody voted. A majority of registered voters went to the polls.

While that is a pretty damning indictment of the Democratic party here in a largely Democratic state, what it doesn't show is how polarized the vote was. Coleman won with 50%. The country is more polarized than it has ever been in my lifetime, possibly more polarized than it has been since certain eras in the 19th century. I'm sure someone will be telling us soon what we already know--we are a nation at war with ourselves.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:17 AM

(quote)
The party itself ain't over, but it's clueless ,and yes "spineless" ,
Demo leaders are the subjetc of the Obit. Dashcle is irrelevent as is Dem front man Terry MacCauliffe. He was almost as much of a flaming self-serving jerk as Republican leader Haley Barbour.

Gephardt is winged ,but is still a toady to his state's Big Military Contractor ( General dynamics I believe) which will want a bigger piece of the Bush war action or Gephardt's gone. Hell they'll propbably have him shot by some lone sniper and be done with it. They'll want a Republican representing them at the Warhog-trough and the hell with the voters. Either way next election Gephardt's toast. General Dynamics will have its Republican-toady all prepped and ready by New Year.

Paul Sarbanes is still the lead member on the all important BankingCmte and is known to have been the prime creator of the new Accounting Review Board that will see both Harvey the Whale Pitt and Judge Webster absent for the botch job.

The list of *effective* loyal opposaition members is there and they will be vocal , but it will still be a Republican Congress.

Mind you I'd be as cocenred over an all Democrat Congress.
The one that Clinton got was a joke in wanting to baloon all kinds of Peace Dividend spending with nary a care about the Republican-fueled deficit at the higher interest rates as a direct result. Oh, BTW; get ready for the inflation-triggering higher interest rates that the now Republican Big Gubment spending will cause.

I just believe in balance of power and without any control of any branch of Gov't the ruling party has *no* retraints.
what was that warning about "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?
Wait for it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST,George W. Quayle
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:30 AM

You'd have to check with Bobert, but I think that a pharacudical is a newclear potatoe.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM

Here in New Hampshire, a half-billionaire has just bought the governor's race with over $10,000,000 of his own money, and by so doing dragged the rest of the Republican misfits in with him.

Of course it didn't help that the Democrats were completely dis-united with each of them going her own separate ways.

While it is all well and good to support the Greens in theory, the liklihood of their winning a major race is somewhat less then that of a Socialist victory.

Now, rather than write an obit for the Democratic party, I intend to get more involved. If all of us here on Mudcat will dig in, we have the potential to turn some things around, to rejuvenat this party of FDR, and in so doing take back the government for the people.

For tthe next two years though the "Live Free or Die" state will be better known as the "Live Well or Die: state -- Tom


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Blues=Life
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM

I hate to say it, but for me, the Democratic Party died the moment the leadership of the party supported Clinton after he lied to the American people. I never had much problem with his having sex with some young groupie, as long as his wife didn't seem to mind. But I was deeply disturbed when he stated "I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" which was an out and out lie. I don't require my politicians to be sexually moral, but don't break your trust with ME. And then, the leadership acted like this was a fine thing, and no big deal. From what I understand, (and please correct me if I'm wrong) Wellstone was one of the few who gave Clinton a hard time about the lies. The rest missed the fact that if I can't trust you to tell me the truth, THEN I CAN'T TRUST YOU. This is a lesson I teach my kids, why is it that my party leadership doesn't know this?
Also, I think that the Republican candidates (at least where I live) came out with a vision of what they were going to do, and the Dems just used attack ads to say how awful the Repubs are. Comments like the above guest's "save us from the fascists who are now in control of business and government" turn people off. This whole demonization of anyone who dares to "disagree with ME" makes the demonizer look petty, foolish, and inconsequential. Let's throw the rascals out (current leadership) and start fresh with candidates who have a vision of their own. Vilsack for President, 2004!

Blues


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM

Tom and Linn-

Maybe I'll just paste in Si Kahn's thoughtful song from the "Vote!" thread:

Here's an appropriate Si Kahn song while we're waiting (copy and paste into WORD/TIMES/12 for chord placement):

TALKIN' POLITICIAN

(Words & Music by Si Kahn © 1974
As recorded by JuneAppal on New Wood
Key: C (G/5))

G------------F
Just as long as I can remember,
C--------------D7
Every four years about November,
G-----------------------F
Folks that wouldn't talk to me on the street,
---C----------------------D7
Are coming in my house and wiping their feet;
G--------------C
Kissing my wife, kissing my babies,
------D
Well, I guess they'd even kiss my old mule
--------------------G
If she hadn't voted for Roosevelt.


Now they shake my hand, they smile and say,
"I'd like your vote come election day;
Now you don't need to know where I stand,
Just vote for me as many times as you can;
That'll be ten dollars now and ten dollars more,
Every time that you vote."

"Now I promise you, if I'm elected,
I'll raise the dead, have 'em resurrected;
I'll pave your road, put a bridge on your creek,
I'll sweep out your cow barn twice a week;"
Now there just might be something to that
'Cause I ain't never seen anyone who could shovel that stuff
As fast as a politician.

The election's come and the road's still muddy,
You try to find your old good buddy;
He's up at the capitol grinding his axes,
Only thing won't get cut will be your taxes;
I've been sliced this way so many times before,
I'm starting to look like coleslaw.

That hand that shook yours behind the plow,
That hand is in your pocket now;
You look for your mule, find her missing,
Better start hunting that politician;
But there's one good thing, weren't for politicians,
The rest of us wouldn't have anything to laugh at,
'Cept for tourists.

Regardless,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:01 AM

I think that if I ask most blokes about their personal business, they are quite entitled to tell me to mind my own bloody business - or I expect to duck the punch that's coming my way. That's the reaction I would have expected from most Americans I have known - and I have no problem with it. Why your standards of personal courtesy for dealing with your president are lower than the ones you use in dealing with each other baffles me as a foreigner. It's a demanding job, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:04 AM

Mark Fernald, the Democratic candidate for governor in NH, ran a campaign to reign in the confiscatory property taxes and replace them with a modest income tax. His program would have been of great benifit to the poor, the woking poor, and the lower middle classes; only the wealthy would have ended up paying more.

Now we are to be "led" by a "successful" businessman whose own corporation went down the tube along with hundreds of jobs; he did just fine though. His solution is to spend less. This is an absurdity. We have the only towns in the nation without kindergartens;we have the highest state college tuition in the country. We are sixth in per-capita wealth, but 45th in charitable giving. And this greedy egotist wants to spend less!

Perhaps he'll at least let us eat some cake -- Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:16 AM

I hope the result does something good for Mudcat: that we never more read for the umpteenth time (and not only from Americans) that the election in 2000 was stolen, undemocratic, handed over by the Supreme Court or Florida's governor ad nauseam.

Not that it is not true (or could seen to be true in parts), but it gets boring to read it ever and ever again.

The preoccupation of the Democrats and other opposition parties with 2000 (as can be seen by many postings in Mudcat) was one factor contributing to their loss. 'Gore in four' in its simple emotionality may be fine for the own clientele but doesn't appeal to the general voter. What is the offer for 2002 (or, 2004) is what the voter wants to know. Nobody really cares if the last election was a cheat if the political offer in this election is unconvincing from one side.

Forget 2000 and think what you may offer in 2004 as a program. The Democratic Party was seen over here as looking back and not looking forward.

BTW, I'd have voted for Gore in 2000 (hypothetically).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:17 AM

Tom, they already did that in Minnesota, and our schools were largely funded through property taxes. Every major metro school district had levies on the ballot in 2000 and 2002. Every single one. I was a victim of the recession layoffs (not in education though) last June. I'm still out of work. And the prospect of being unemployed under this Republican force is pretty damn frightening.

This week is my last unemployment check too. I'm sure being unemployed is all my fault, after working my entire adult life, right there DougR?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:18 AM

Greens might as well be Green Men from Mars. They're that out of touch with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM

Maybe the Democrats and Kendall will finally realize that Dubya isn't stupid.

Only Bill Clinton, of all people, has known from the beginning that Dubya was a brilliant politician. Disagree with his policies, but he is one badass campaigner. And has always been smarter than Al Gore, intellectually, and politically. Don't forget, that considering the economy in 2000, and a sitting V.P. Bush SHOULD have lost that election by 8 points given history. So, even Democrats will tell you in private, that just to statistically tie the popular vote was a herculean accomplishment. You can claim the popular vote but a
couple hundred thousand votes amongst 100 million is statistically irrelevant, and any number of irregularities either way could account for that. AND its not even an officially kept record.

Add to that that the sitting party virtually never does this well in a Non-Presidential year AND the GOP had to DEFEND more Senate seats.


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Subject: RE: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:27 AM

Pharmaceuticals, dang it, GUEST Paula. Geeeeeze. Man, do I gotta break in another GUEST that don't talk Wes Ginny?!?...

And whatz with the Repub. remark, anyway. That one kind went over my head. Republican? Hmmmmmmmm?

Now, back to Greens fir just a couple of thoughts. I know that it ain't easy changing a system that seems to be owned lock, stock and barrel by the "ruling class" but it's not impossible either. After all, it does come down to ideas and solutions, and the Dems ain't got any. So if enough folks who really do care about the direction of the country bolt and join forces with the Greens, and bring their talents, their ideas and their passion with them, then slowly the Green Party will get some respect.

I agree that at present, becuase many, many factors the Green Party is back on it's heels but that is a reality that we accept. Success isn't entirely baout winning elections but in putting forth alternative ideas. At some point in time, the working class will be fed up and when that happens we need a party ready and willing to stand up to Boss Hog. And after what we've seen over the last decade, that ain't the Democratic party, which has now been demoted to *sparring partner*.

So if you Dems want to just work harder as Dems, fine. It's your choice. As fir me, it seems like giving a transfusion to a dead man.

It is my *opinion* that the Green Party just became the 2nd party in a two party system so... come on over. Or if ya' can't get there yet, think about it.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:28 AM

Reporting in from the State of Texas, where Molly Ivins, when asked to say one good thing about our then unelected (but in the right place when Dubya moved to Washington) governor--He has great hair.

People down actually believed the big corporations and the negative ads. I'll be here to say "I told you so" when they start complaining about drug prices, bank failures (remember Reagan "deregulating" the Savings and Loans?), and, I shudder to think about it--the shooting war that Bush is going to start just to proove he can do it. And be on your toes: don't even THINK of growing OLD in this country now and needing Medicare or any government assistance.

Do we really think soft money has gone away after this election? No way. Not now.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Peg
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:29 AM

Mr. Clinton did lie..about something extremely personal that was NO ONE's BUSINESS BUT HIS OWN AND HIS WIFE's. Where he wants to put his dick is hardly a matter of national security. He did more to keep this country safe and prosperous in his eight years than the Bush family would even be capable of in a quarter century. He was flawed, but he was also kept from doing his job for a good long time by a wrong-headed investigation and attempt at impeachment...over sex, for crissakes. Please, just cut this crap about how he "lied to the American people." It's just uninformed self-righteous rhetoric.

I for one am far more concerned about lies told to "the American people" concerning arms sales to the Contras, planes shot down over New York and Pennsylvania by our own government, elections illegally hijacked by powerful political families, insider trading by high-powered elected officials whose investments in big oil companies are endangering our national security far worse than one man's predilection for blow-jobs, and special-interest corporate lobbying that pays off politicians and results in the poisoning, weakening and exploitation of people everywhere.

This is a dark day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM

The only offers I've heard rumblings of for a Dem candidate in 2004 are Gary Hart, Lieberman, and Al Gore, NONE of whom should be allowed to run! The Dems will get nothing with that offering has-beens.

My 25yr old daughter has always said there would be a revolution in her adulthood and it would be her generation which leads it...I am beginning to think it might be just what we need. What we have right now is truly fucked up.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM

I can't type today. That should read "people down HERE actually. . ."

Bobert, I've always felt that the Democrats need to decide that if they can't beat the greens, they'd better join them. And vice-versa. It isn't going to get the Bush dynasty out of office to have three parties, one always taking the vote that would have put the other over the top. They need to come to an understanding and merge the ideas. It's about time.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:37 AM

I voted in the guv'nor race for each party
didnt' really care much for the guy that won
but his party aides paid me $10 more
think they tricked me into voting twice for him
and didnt pay me for the second time


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:43 AM

I forgot to say I hope all those who voted Republican and those who did NOT vote enjoy seeing their kids come back in body bags. Me, bitter? No!

Bobert, I agree with SRS, this is not the time. United we stand; divided we fall has certainly been proven in 2000 and today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 10:45 AM

Memo


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:01 AM

I could not agree more with SRS. Like it or not, we are stuck with a two party system; third parties have only served to fragment the electorate on one side or the other.

Once, many years back, in a momentary fit of idealism, I voted for John Anderson, thereby helping to bring the curse down on all of us.

While I do think the Greens have some good ideas, my own personal political color is still RED.

Fan the flames -- Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:31 AM

Well, folks, then grab the tiller and guide the Dem. back from the right. Let the Dems stand up for the working class. Let the Dems stand up to the corporations. Yeah, while ya' got the tiller, get em' to fillibuster until to cows come home for campaigne finance reform as a first step toward getting Jefferson's experiement back on track. Heck, get them to stand up to *anything*. They used to. They stood up in the 60's and created so many programs for the working class and then they just gave up. They have stumbled over one another going further to right. They lost because they won't lead. They have become poll followers saying whatever they think will get them votes.

Yeah, it would be real nice if we didn't have to have the Green Party but we'll have it as long as the Dems are doing their Repub impersonations...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:50 AM

I agree with Stilly too. It's "strange bedfellows" time, and they don't come much stranger than Clinton nd Gore! But if the Republican stranglehold on the US is to be weakened, the parties in opposition to the Republican agenda are going to have to band together, at least for the time being.

Hey, Kendall, we here in Pennsylvania just got a Democratic governor, too! Ed Rendell, the first governor from Philadelphia in some 90 years! I'm not at all surprised, though: (a) Pennsylvania tends to ping-pong back and forth between the two parties for their governors every 8 years or so; (b) Mark Schweiker, Tom Ridge's second-in-command and replacement when Bush named him Homeland Security Chief, did not choose to run for the office this time (if Schweiker had, I think he would have been a shoo-in after his appearances at the PA mine disaster last summer); (c) Bob Casey Jr. lost the Republican nomination to Mike Fisher, who was simply not as electable as Casey, the son of a very popular former governor (now deceased), would have been. For all of Rendell's faults, I think he'll do great things for PA, and he's not the sort to take any guff from Bush. I rather wish that Rendell would run for President in '04 (but I'd hate to lose him as PA's governor)!

Another blow to the Republicans came in southeastern Pennsylvania, where they had done a very underhanded bit of redistricting to combine a section of Philadelphia with part of suburban Montgomery County to create a district which they'd hoped would weaken the Democratic vote in the area. No such luck! Joe Hoeffel still won the election for the 13th PA Congressional District over Republican Melissa Brown. Ha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 11:55 AM

One good note: in the one party state of Wyoming, VP Cheney's home state, where the GOP reigns free with oil and cattle industry moguls at the head, a Democratic governor has just been elected. I didn't think the folks of Wyoming had it in them and am pleased as punch!

Bobert, I would ask you to do the same, help us take back the Democratic Party.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

Interesting to hear about the gerrymandering in PA SharonA, especially since it didn't work!

I am hoping that the progressive left Democratic party can be revived and radically reformed, but I'm not holding my breath for 2004. The progressive left in the US is simply too fractured ideologically, grossly outfunded, and politically unorganized.

That said, I'm hoping that the Greens will come home, the war will galvanize opinion, and the death of Wellstone will silence the centrist cowards who sold their souls to the highest bidders.

As to running Bush out of office--only if the war goes badly AND the economy tanks despite the infusion of massive defense spending. Just because there is no one on the horizon for Dems in the presidential race for 2004 doesn't mean someone won't surface. Feingold, the senator from Wisconsin who voted against the Patriot Act, is one possibility. He voted almost identically to Wellstone, but without the fiery rhetoric, so IMO is an excellent candidate for possibly uniting the party with a progressive left takeover. But he'll need grooming for 2008.

And progressives will have to get off their sorry, comfortable, whining fat asses and into the streets to make the country ungovernable under the Republicrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

I am nominally a democrat, because I believe in a very strong safety net. I am for a very strong national defense and a very strong police force. Where the democrats lose me is their tolerance for almost any sort of social pathology..and the more it is tolerated the more it is enabled and just integrated into the culture. I think everyone should behave themselves and not cause trouble for others or expenses to the taxpayers. Those on the safety net really really need to behave themselves. That means don't get pregnant if you aren't married, don't destroy public housing if you live in it, don't deal drugs, don't exchange food stamps for alchohol and drugs, don't drop out of school, don't commit crimes etc. if all the expenses that we have, jail, a certain percentage of welfare, diseases associated with drug abuse and that life style..were to disappear, we would have more money for a much better safety net and for a vigorous defense.

And it is a matter of national security what a president does and with whom. All sorts of bad scenarios. And it wasn't just about his sex life and about lying. It was about what sounds like a series of sexual harassments and assaults. I could care less what the sleazeball did with totally voluntary companions. I care when state employees are brought into the act to procure and cover for him and I care about the nonvoluntary situations that are claimed to have existed. And I wouldn't wish enjoyment of seeing kids coming home in body bags to anyone, regardless of their politics.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:16 PM

Well, kat, the best thing the dems can do now, if they wish to survive, is to take campaign finance reform and run with it. Spend their energy and money on leading with a big PR campaign. Filibuster, if they have to. Win *something*, dang it, that tells America that it ain't dead yet. Take on the corporation. Fight for the working class. Teach democracy through actions. This single issue is the only one that they can win now. The others are just going to get steam rolled by the Repubs.

Write your dem. reps and tell them to get on the ball. Tell them to get their collective heads out of the sand and fight for democracy.

The Dems need to win something.

Forgetmn those governorships. They are traps. Why didn't you see George Bush fighting for many of them (except Florida)? Because he knew that governors are gonna have a hard time over the next few years and the Dems are gonna take a lot of blame. Look at Mark Warner in Virginia as a prime example. The guy who has to clean up the mess after the party ain't as popular as the guy who threw the party...

Nothin' would make me happier than to return to the Dems but no0t these Dems. They haven't shown me anything in 30 years, thank you.

But if you can get 'em riled up, kat, then that's a first step. Tney should, at least, be a tad more receptive today than they were yesterday.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:25 PM

mary, when I hear people who are so complacent they claim to NOT vote is their "right/civic duty," I feel it will take that kind of shock to wake them up and get them motivated. Of course, I don't want them to enjoy such a tragedy as losing a child to war, BUT it will happen and in large part because of the apathy of people who don't vote and participate thorugh making their vooices heard in other ways. Seventy percent are being railroaded by thirty. It's going to take something of great magnitude to change that around.

I agree with you, to a point, about people in the saftey net behaving, BUT that safety net has to be liveable, with much more in the way of positive education and motivation. When someone tries to live off of $2-300 per month and has no hope of a job without losing all benefits of the net for minimum wage, some of them will turn to illegal means.

One of the things Michael Moore asks in his documentary Bowling for Columbine is why are we, as a society, so angry at poor people. Other countries are much kinder in their attitudes about those living in poverty. We need more emptahy and compassion, as well as better programs for the safety net to really be such and offer a shred of hope. In this macho pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps country, we hold those in poverty in great disdain, looking upon them with great contempt and demanding exemplary behaviour from them that we do not demand of any others.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

Mary Garvey, you are no Marcus, to be sure. I'm gonna guess you aren't really even a Democrat. Youu just wanted to vent your bigoted, racist views under the safe cover of calling yourself a Democrat. Anyone with the views you are professing to hold here isn't even REMOTELY close to the current soft money center of the Democratic party.

BTW, many of us know that phrases like "social pathology" and "unwed mothers" and "poor people in public housing" and "drug dealers" and "welfare frauds" (that would be that group you identified as those who "receive food stamps and exchange them for drugs and alcohol" are all coded to appeal to racists afraid of looking un-PC, thereby leaving their arguments open to attack.

Sussed you out, girl.

Nice try, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:32 PM

oh poo.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM

Peg, I'm with you. It is a measure of the mis placed morality of those like Blues, who are more upset by a president getting a blow job than the Actor, lying through his teeth about Iran-Contre and Arms for hostages. Talk about head up your ass!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:41 PM

And, siblings who get away with millions in bank fraud ala Silverado, Kendall. I agree!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM

No kendall, they don't mind when their boy lies about killing poor people in foreign countries. They mind when "the enemy" lies about getting a blow job.

Frankly, I've got to hand to the fundamentalist Republicans. They now have The Big Lie out there that a phony sexual double standard is a moral code of principalled politicians--that is the Newt Standard of Integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM

Neither the Democratic nor the Republican Parties will succeed in properly addressing reality in America or in the World, because they believe their own past mythology (which is seriously out of touch with reality), and their main concern is staying in power.

The Greens will probably not succeed in properly addressing reality either. If elected (highly unlikely), they will soon become engrossed in the usual concern of political parties...staying in power. In order to stay in power they will cozy up to the same power structures that keep other parties in power...the big business community, the banks, the military-industrial complex, the lobbyists, and the media. If they don't those powers will destroy them by the time of the next election.

Your problem is not a choice between political parties, your problem is that you believe in an entire social system which is so flawed in its basic understanding of Life that it is nearly incapable of ever rendering good government. Tinkering with the details of your system will not change much.

Your social system believes that it is the BEST system there is. That is a typical illusion held by all social systems since the dawn of time, and it's a silly one to say the least.

There comes a time when conditions have changed so much that an old system is simply past its time...and needs to change absolutely radically...or fall.

That's the point we are at now in the whole world.

We can't work much longer within the parameters of a society that believed certain things, like:

1. Us and Them (it's actually just "us", period)

2. Rich and Poor (not a wise way to stratify a free people)

3. Rule by money and the gun (instead of by brotherhood to the mutual benefit of all concerned)

4. Politics by dividing up into hostile camps and fighting with each other (in elections)...(instead of politics by consensus and inclusion of everyone's input)

5. Competition (instead of cooperation in a mutual effort toward a mutual goal)

6. Exploitation of nature as if nature were merely raw material put there for profit (instead of recognizing that we are a small PART OF nature, and obliged to cooperate with it to survive)

7. Justice by fear and vengeance (instead of by setting a good example in the first place and seeking equality for all)

8. Rule by fear (instead of by love)

And so on.

Your political parties are an anachronism. This system is collapsing, because our tremendous advances in technology, our expanding population, and our shrinking natural resources have rendered this system obsolete and it is DYING. Fast.

We have to change radically soon or die with it in great numbers. It's as simple as that.

Even to have political parties of the kind we do now will be seen as archaic one day...just as we now see rule by kings and the once taken-for-granted concept of the "divine right" of those kings to rule over the "common people".

You're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, folks. Sorry to say it.

If you think the Greens can still save you, by all means vote Green. I agree that they are a better choice at the moment than the traditional parties. But I simply don't BELIEVE in political parties, any more than I believe in securing a "Papal Bull" to cure my problems...or waiting for a White Knight to come and slay my dragons for me.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

Safety nets, while important, are not the real issue that we need to concern ourselves with. Many of those relying on welfare have never had any other options. The absolutely important issue is to ensure that opportunity exists in the first place. This is why education is vital. If quality education, health care, and employment are available to the working classes, they will no longer be disadvantaged.

Furthermore, a party does not die because it loses an election. It dies if it loses voter appeal. What is important now is that Greens and Reds try to steer the Democrats to the left, to appeal to those voters who demand change. If we can do this, not only will the Democrats continue to have power, but this power will do us some good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM

I do wish more of our "Guests" would at least designate themselves something, as has "Forum Lurker." At least come that far out of the closet so we stand a chance of sorting you out.;~)

Charley Noble, who once was a "guest"


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM

The phrase "Fundamentalist Republican" is getting thrown around here. I think that we need to clarify that term.

We have Republicans, which have a political philosophy. These are not bad guys, they just have a different but valid opinions, and occassionally, they even happen to get something right :) Opposing opinions are the lifeblood of democracy. Many of these republicans, no doubt, happen to be Christian, but they separate their personal idealogy from the running of the country.

Then we have Fundamentalist Christians masquerading as a political party. They don't have political opinions, they have religious ones. In a country whose foundations of government are built on the separation of religious idealogy from political, this is very dangerous, because they would attempt to legislate a code of religious behavior and force it upon those who don't agree. The big red herring here is abortion rights, but in reality we are looking at a religious idealogy which views women as reproductive vessels whose only purpose is to create more Fundamentalist Christian males.

Then we have people like my grandfather. He's a devout Methodist deacon, who, politically speaking, is really a Democrat. But his Republican candidates get up there and wave a Bible, and so he votes Republican -- even though he disagrees with almost everything they stand for. Now, he was astonished when I told him he was a idealogically a moderate Democrat, because it never occured to him that many Democrats read the Bible, too.

In other words, I don't think it's fair to condemn "Republicans" for the idealogy of some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:14 PM

Things are going to be interesting now that the Republicans have control of both houses of prostitu --- OOPS! SORRY! --- Congres.

Stephen Lee


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM

Good point Nicole, but if the decent Republicans allow the "Fundaments" to dominate them, that's who they are representing.

Here in NH, a state rep just announced that he would challenge fellow Republican Congressman Charlie Bass in 2004. He thinks Bass is too liberal because he happenss to be a rare pro-choice Republican.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:43 PM

NicoleC, I am the one who introduced the term Republican fundamentalist, and while I was alluding to the dictionary definition of fundamentalism as movement of Protestants with a literal belief in the Bible as unquestionable fact and truth, I was really using the term fundamentalist as a metaphor for the secular Republican ideologues who are in now way "decent Christians" and who are, as you pointed out, exploiting Christian conservatives, both Catholic and Protestant, like your grandfather.

At the end of the day, it is the very effective secular exploitation of Christian religious fundamentalism I am alluding to metaphorically, by using the term Republican fundamentalist, rather Republican ideologue. There is something about Republicans like Tom De Lay, Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan, et al that is so absolute in it's hatred for and fear of Democrats being in power, that they can no longer see the forest for the trees. They don't allow for differences of opinion. They are the litmus test Republicans. They are the "sign the Republican oath" Republicans, who put party before ANYTHING, but mostly before what is truly best for the nation.

These Republican fundamentalists have become emboldened by their ability to control the public debate through the 24/7 media channels. It is THEIR MEN who rule on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC. They have not only driven public debate far to the right from where the decent but naive, moderate Republican center might have been in the John Anderson for President pre-cable network days. They also have a stranglehold on the public debate with their idealogues controlling the talk radio airwaves which appeal to the extremist, racist, gun toting, militarist, secular right.

Make no mistake--these Republican fundamentalist extremists ARE Bush/Cheney. They are the manipulators of emotionally frail people who mistakenly take what these charlatans speak as literal truth, in the same way that Protestant fundamentalists take the Bible as literal truth. These extremists like the Pat Buchanans, Rush Limbaughs, Wolf Blitzers, Robert Novaks, Imus, Abrams, etc etc create the climate where irrational, disturbed, isolated white men with mental problems murder the women who leave them out fear for their lives, by the thousands every year, year after year. Or in drunken argument with another emotionally frail and mentally disturbed male, pull out a gun and shoot their best friend. These Republican fundamentalists prey upon and incite the passions of the emotionally frail and mentally disturbed white men like Timothy McVeigh, and others like him suffering from the delusions nurtured by militarist machismo.

They are the Republican fundamentalists who have hijacked the public debate, and driven it further and further down the hole into this self-centered, egomaniacal, machismo, nationalist, consumerist culture.

Just as the progressive left needs to take back control of the Democratic party, so too does the moderate, progressive Republican need to take back control of the Republican party. You can't blame Democrats for Republican demagoguery. They aren't the ones at fault. Genuine, decent, progressive Republicans need to start speaking truth from their heart and soul to the Republicans, every bit as much as Democrats need to from theirs.

Our highest human values are being gutted by these demagogues. The Republicans fundamentalists are much, much worse than the Democrats in this regard. Their mean spiritedness takes the breath away. I can tell you this--I'd much rather fight spineless Democrats, than demagoguing Republican fundamentalists anyday. I can't even comprehend their viciousness. Just can't comprehend it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:45 PM

I wish folks would put to rest the fable that Clinton was impeached because he got a blow job from a girl half his age. He was impeached because he lied UNDER OATH! Geeze.

Bobert, I still think you should run for president! The Green Party could use a good candidate, and I can't think of a better more consistently good green candidate than you would be.

Naturally, I think this is a beautiful, wonderful day for America. Even better than yesterday was!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: the Democratic Party
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:55 PM

Oops, I misspoke myself earlier. In PA, Bob Casey Jr. lost the Republican primary to Mike Fisher! Sorry!


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