Whither the politics of Folk?

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 10:33 AM

as my son's Tee Shirt says, "Keep your politics out of my music!"

;-)

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: GUEST,Rick at Sunny Ochs' place
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 10:44 AM

Jed. Acouple of years ago I realized that NINETY PERCENT of my wardrobe WAS t-shirts....and they all had advertising on them....Festivals, record companies, guitar makers, etc. If it weren't for Freebie shirts I'd be plumb naked!!

Rick

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

"The way the good things are distributed" - no implication there about good things being gathered up centrally and passed out, Doug. I just how mean how they end up with some people rather than with others. The same way to talk of how the population of the United States is "distributed" wouldn't mean that everybody has been told to live in one place or another.

I know I've come across plenty of cases where people who have worked hard doing useful jobs all their lives have lived on the edge of poverty; and the other way round as well, where people have done very well indeed financially while doing nothing of value, or even harming the people around them.

I'd have thought we all could point to cases like that, even those who think that there is no alternative but to accept this as the inevitable consequence of a system that on the whole is beneficial.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 03:20 PM

And Jed, if politics were left out of folk music you and I would be playing jigs and reels exclusively. Woody Gutherie would never have written "This Land is You Land" nor most of his repertoire, Pete Seeger would be flipping burgers some where, the folk revival would never have happened.................need I go on? Of course politics belong in folk. And folks that think it is all left wing need to crack the books a bit. There are loads of Folk Traditional songs that are anything but left wing. It is true that in the second half of the twentieth century it has taken a turn to the left, but the folk tradition is anything but.

Mick

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 03:44 PM


Poly - many

Ticks - parasitic insects

I rest my case...!!

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 04:47 PM

It comes down to how subtle the politics of a folk song are, not whether they're there. Songs about war, emmigration, poverty - don't these things have something to do with governments? That type of song probably focuses more on the individual and is far more subtle. You can sing a song about how the government is evil, wantonly disregards human life and is getting people killed in a war far from home. Or you can sing from the perspective of someone in that war who just recounts his experiences and gives the facts as he sees them. The song involves the same setting, the same events, but any political conclusions are left for the listener to make or not make. I'm fairly sure someone like Jed who says they don't like politics in music would be happy singing the latter type of song.

I don't think the presence of politics in a song that's the problem. It's how it's presented. It's whether or not the song feels like it's telling you what you should think.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:14 AM

Party Animal :- How sad that you should know such things.
Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 03:26 PM

If it wasn't for Woody,early Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton and their political songs I'd still be teaching!

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM

Yes Harvey, writing political songs, and performing them, is and always has been a legitimate occupation. However to stand on a political platform when the only reason you're there is because of who you are, and thereby becoming a trophy for that party, or politician, that's a whole new ball game. You and I are of similar vintage, and I'm sure that you remember singers who used the folk club stage as political platform,{I'm thinking here of the guy who ran The Scots House in the 60s}, and that too is an abuse of power.
I sing songs about whaling and fox hunting, but in so doing I don't endorse them as pastimes. So what I'm trying to say is, don't sell your birthright for a pot of message.
Failte....Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: GUEST,Party Animal
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 06:04 PM

Party Animal :- How sad that you should know such things.
Giok

Well Giok, I know such things because I pay attention. I attend concerts, I listen to recordings and I read articles and websites; including Mudcat. If you paid attention, you would know too,

I find it sad that you can listen to Baez, Paxton and McTell and not understand the politics that is an essential component to their artistry.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 06:49 PM

But then again Giok, to thine own self be true.I can remember singing along with the Watersons on "Dido, bendigo" the fox hunting song, but since I've lived in the countryside for the last 30 years there's no way I could join in now. The journey of life changes us all and that's its point.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 07:02 PM

Just because someone may make a living singing songs rather than as a professional politician is no reason to trust their integrity any less.

As for trusting their political judgement, you use your own judgement on that. In the final analysis the basis of any kind of democracy is that the final decision should lie with ordinary people rather than with professional politicians.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:54 PM

Party Animal, perhaps the irony of my post expressing sorrow about your esoteric knowledge regarding the political affiliations of musicians passed you by What I'm trying to get across is my dislike of someone who comes to entertain, and instead preaches. Is he/she so sure of their political rectitude that they feel they can afford to offend those members of their audience who do not share their political leanings.
It is perhaps unfair as a comparison, but can you imagine someone parading their sexual preferences to all and sundry, and being surprised if someone in the audience boos? I was brought up in an area where it was tantamount to treason if one side were to sing the songs of the other. The songs concerned could be beautifull, but they had no meaning other than prejudice for the listeners, and so they were, and still are out of bounds. THIS IS WRONG
Perhaps we could start a group called Punch the Trojan Horse!
Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: mike the knife
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:11 PM

I nominate "The Ballad of the Green Berets" as the folk song of the Right. The US Army actually put Sgt. Barry Sadler, who was, in fact a real Special Forces soldier on a tour of the US to boost morale/enlistment, reminiscent of the Bond drives of WWII. A dog & pony show, beneath the dignity of a professional soldier.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: GUEST,Party Animal
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:19 PM

Well Giok, folk music isn't just about entertainment. It's always been about the human condition, and much of that is politics.

When I listen to the likes of Woody Guthrie (RIP), Tom Paxton, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, Utah Phillips, Ewan MacColl (RIP), Ralph McTell, Eric Bogle, Holly Near, Si Kahn, Phil Ochs (RIP), John McCutcheon and many others, I know that I will be hearing their political viewpoints; in the songs and in the stage patter.

"It is perhaps unfair as a comparison, but can you imagine someone parading their sexual preferences to all and sundry, and being surprised if someone in the audience boos?"

When Tom Paxton sings a beautiful love song like "My Lady's A Wild Flying Dove," he is parading his heterosexual preference to all and sundry. I don't have a problem with that. I've even seen out-lesbians applauding his singing of such songs.

There are lots of gay and lesbian performers on the folk music scene whose preference is well known. When Janis Ian sings one of her beautiful love songs, I know that she's singing about a woman. I don't boo, I applaud. I've seen her sing such songs for 200 people at the Iron Horse and for 5,000 people at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival and I've never heard any booing. Just applause.

Yeah Giok, I find it hard to imagine folk music stripped of either politics or sexuality.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

Isn't anybody who sings a love song "parading their sexual preferences"?

Can'y sing about politics, can't sing about love. Can't sing about religion of course...Sport can be a bit controversial too.

There aren't that many songs about the weather.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: GUEST,Party Animal
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:33 PM

Yes McGrath, most anyone singing a gender specific love song, and who is candid about who the song is for, is letting us know their sexual preferences.

When Tom Paxton dedicates a love song to his wife Midge (I've met her and she's a lovely woman), which I've seen him do many times, he's letting us know his sexual preference.

It's not me who says you can't sing about politics, love, religion, etc. That would be Giok's implication. I say you can, and should.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:40 PM

I don't subscribe to the "every thing is political in some way" school of thought, but I don't decry songs expressing disgust with the system, I've been known to sing some myself. I'm railing against party politics, and feel that they should not intrude on the audiences enjoyment of what should be entertainment.
PA, if the sexual proclivities being promoted were paedophilic, I don't think any of us would feel quite so sanguine.
Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:43 PM

Would "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" count?

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:43 PM

McGrath:

"I remember how in Galveston
When storm winds swept the town..."

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:49 PM

Well Kevin, when you think of the old rogue (Maurice Chevalier) who sang it in the film, I'm willing to bet it would never have been made today.
Sad aint it.
Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: GUEST,Party Animal
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:51 PM

"PA, if the sexual proclivities being promoted were paedophilic, I don't think any of us would feel quite so sanguine."

No doubt about that. However, I don't know of any societies on this planet that regard paedophilia as acceptable, or even as non-criminal, behaviour.

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:57 PM

If only they felt the same about party politics!
Giok

Subject: RE: Whither the politics of Folk?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:45 PM

However, I don't know of any societies on this planet that regard paedophilia as acceptable, or even as non-criminal, behaviour.

There are still countries where the legal age of consent or marriage is as low as 12.