Origin: Kitty and I (Carter Family)

Subject: RE: Origin: Kitty and I (Carter Family)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 21 - 09:20 AM

Would be interesting to compare the tune with earlier 'Kitty Alone' usage. The usual appropriation of an existing chorus would tend to include appropriation of the tune along with it. Looking at the simplicity of Joe's song and the background to the Carter Family, I'd say this is highly likely.

Subject: ADD Version: Kitty and I (Joe Carter)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 21 - 08:06 PM

Except for the "kitty alone" phrase, I don't see any connection between this and any other "kitty alone" songs. I'm tempted to think it is a Joe Carter original.

Joe and Janette Carter recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iUHAI-SPU

also this treasure (same, but better transfer): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWEV8SJeqV4

Here's my transcription of "Kitty and I" from the Joe and Janette Carter recording. It's almost the same as what Richie posted above.

KITTY AND I
(Joe Carter)

Tomorrow night, I just can't wait
Me and Kitty's got a date
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I

You ought to hear* her clap her hands
When they play old Sally Ann
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Take your money if you bet
Never miss a single set
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I

Dance all night till break of day
Don't care what the old folks say
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I

If she would only marry me
Man,** how happy we would be
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Teach our kids to dance and play
Driving all our blues away
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I

Tomorrow night, I just can't wait
Me and Kitty's got a date
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I


*alt: "see"
**alt: "think"

Joe Carter doesn't repeat the first verse at the end, but I like it there.

---

And Ed Trickett did a recording on Folk-Legacy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDkGVSagKTk

Here are Ed's notes:

KITTY AND I (Joe Carter)
Side 2, Band 4.
A composition by Joe Carter, son of A. P. and Sara Carter of the original Carter Family. A recording of this tune can be heard on County 706: Joe and Janette Carter. On the original recording, fiddle and guitar are featured. A carpentry foreman, to whom music is only a sideline, Carter lives in Hiltons, Virginia, on a hill overlooking the home place of A. P. and Sara.
Ed - guitar, Cathy - banjo

Subject: RE: Origin: Kitty and I (Carter Family)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:55 PM

This thread is 12 years old and I would guess that Richie has his answers by now, looking at his enormous excellent website on the American versions of Child Ballads. None of the above songs are Child Ballads, but in answer to the original request, these very old songs which have been very popular in all senses of the word lend themselves to all sorts of alterations, being given new choruses, tunes etc., over several centuries. Another example of the type is the 'Farmyard Song' that follows the same format but over time has acquired numerous tunes and different choruses. One of the reasons is the repetitive nature of the material which easily lends itself to adaptation, new material, conscious rewriting etc.

I would suggest with 'Froggy' the fun ideas involved led to it having various tunes and choruses adapted from other sources. Its enormous familiarity and popularity led to its appropriation for political purposes (Hey ho says Rowley). The long string of nonsense tonguetwister chorus seems to have been adapted from other crude cant songs in the early 18thc. The keemo kimo adaptation of this was then understandably adapted for a minstrel song in the middle of the 19thc.

Of the kitty/cuddy alone chorus I'm not sure which was the first to use it, Martin or Froggy but it would be worth investigating.

Subject: RE: Origin: Kitty and I (Carter Family)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:48 PM

This album has Kitty and I on it: CD

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 12:06 AM

Here's some info about Joe Carter:

A.P. and Sara's children: Joe and Janette Carter

Joe Carter:   Appearance as principal performer
1. Barnyard Sounds, Best of Seedtime on the Cumberland, June Appal JA 0059C (198?), cut # 13
   Side Performer Appearance
2. Greatest Old Time Gospel Hymns. Featuring the Phipps Family, Pine Mountain PMR 125
3. Seeger, Mike / Third Annual Farewell Reunion, Rounder 0313

Joe & Janette Carter:   Appearance as principal performer
1. Sailor On the Deep Blue Sea, Best of Seedtime on the Cumberland, June Appal JA 0059C (198?), cut # 2
2. You've Been A Friend To Me, Third Annual Farewell Reunion, Rounder 0313 (1994), cut #22

Janette Carter performs each Saturday, along with her brother Joe, at the Carter Center in the Carter Fold building. Joe and their older sister, Gladys Carter Millard, assisted Janette in her efforts to establish the Center as a living tribute to the Carter Family. The Fold (a biblical reference) was designed and named by Joe Carter.

Is "Kitty and I" an arrangement of "Kitty Alone" by Joe Carter?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:39 PM

"Kitty and I" is not on Diamonds in the Rough.
~Masato

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 07:08 AM

Here's some info from Folk Index:

Kitty and I - Carter, Joe (Joe-L)

Lissenberg, Theo. Galax International, Heritage (Galax) 067, LP (1988), cut# 21
Lissenberg, Theo. 49th Annual Galax Old Fiddlers Convention, Heritage (Galax) 700, LP (1985), cut# 15
Trickett, Ed. People Like You, Folk Legacy FSI-092, LP (1982), cut# 10

There's also a Carter Family song entitled, "Little Joe:"

What will the birds do, mother, in the spring
Will they gather the crumbs around our door
Will they fly from the nest to the top of the tree
And ask why Joe wanders out no more

Does anyone have any detailed info on the "Kitty and I" song?

Richie

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 06:32 AM

I have it from 1941:

Carter Family - Little Joe (Copper Creek CD) Diamonds in the Rough

-Richie

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 03:33 AM

The Carter Family recording with this title is not found on their discography in Kip Lornell, Virginia's Blues, Country, & Gospel Records 1902-1943 (University Press of Kentucky, 1989, pp. 35-58), which contains unissued recordings.
~Masato

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:50 PM

Any sound files of Kitty and I anywhere? That's a nice song for a Kitty.

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 04:42 PM

Richie, WHERE in the Carter Family repertoire does this occur? I have the Bear Family set and the Border Radio series vols 1-3 and don't remember it. Am I having senior moments already? Thanks in advance

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 11:09 PM

Here's some info on Kitty Alone from my notes:

Two main sources of Kitty Alone are: "A Frog He Would A-Wooing Go" and "Martin Said to His Man."

A Frog He Would A-Wooing Go: "Froggie Went a Courtin'" The air for this song (which Horace M. Belden believes is the most widely known song in the English language) first appears in Thomas Ravenscroft's "Melismata" (1611). It is an early version of the song ("Froggie Went A-Courtin'") famous in British and American traditional folklore and folksong, of which the earliest appearence was in Wedderburn's "Complaynt of Scotland" (1549) where it is called "The frog cam to the myl dur." Another early version is found in a broadside text of 1580, called "A moste Strange weddinge of the ffrogge and the mowse" (Rollins).

The origin of the "Kitty Alone" text is based on the "Frog in the Spring/Frog in the Well" songs which is the "Puddy in the Well" offshoot of "Froggie Went A Courtin':"

There lived a puddy in a well,
Cuddy alone, Cuddy alone
There lived a puddy in a well
Cuddy alone and I

There lived a puddy in a well
And a mousie in a mill
Kickmaleerie, cowden down
Cuddy alone and I.

Through a folk metamorphosis "Cuddy" could easily have become "Kitty." Here is a version of Kitty Alone:

Here's a verse from "The Frog" in the Well:"

There was a frog lived in a well,
Kitty alone, Kitty alone;
There was a frog lived in a well;
Kitty alone and I!

There was a frog lived in a well,
And a merry mouse in a mill.
Cock me cary, Kitty alone,
Kitty


Martin Said to His Man: In a long note on this song Professor G. L. Kittredge shows that the "Old Blind Drunk John" songs derive from "a famous old English song, 'Martin Said to His Man,' and entered in the Stationers' Register in 1588." It is a lying song—"I saw a louse run a mouse.... I saw a squirrel run a deer.... I saw a flea kick a tree..., in the middle of the sea." One Scottish version cited says, "Four and twenty Hilandmen chasing a snail," etc.
Referred to in Dryden's 1668 play "Sir Martin Mar-all, or the Feign'd Innocence" (act IV). It seems to have been very popular in the century prior to that. The American versions can generally be told by their narrative pattern, "(I) saw a ( ) (doing something)," e.g. "Saw a crow flying low," "Saw a mule teaching school," "Saw a louse chase a mouse," "Saw a flea wade the sea."

Here's an example of the Martin Said to His Man- Kitty Alone:

Saw a crow a-flying low
Kitty alone, kitty alone.
Saw a crow a-flying low,
Kitty alone, alone.
Saw a crow a-flying low
And a cat a-spinnin' tow.
Rock-a-bye baby bye, rock-a-bye baby bye.

These are the two basic different type of Kitty Alone, The first relates to "Froggie/Kemo Kimo" type songs, the second "Buck-Eye Jim/Johnny Fool" type songs.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 10:17 PM

-McGrath of Harlow,

I didn't see the lyrics in the DT and in the several Kitty Alone threads no one has mentioned the song.

It seems like dance tune lyrics or fiddle lyrics.

-Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: KITTY AND I (from the Carter Family)
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 10:11 PM

KITTY AND I
Carter Family

Tomorrow night, I just can't wait
Me and Kitty's got a date
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Oh, Kitty alone and I

You ought to see her clap her hands
When they play old Sally Ann
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Take your money if you bet
Never miss a single set
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I

Dance all night till the break of day
I don't care what the old folks say
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I

If she would only marry me
Think how happy we would be
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Teach our kids to dance and play
Driving all our blues away
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I

Tomorrow night, I just can't wait
Me and Kitty's got a date
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I
Promenade and do-se-do
Cheek to cheek and toe to toe
Kitty alone, Kitty alone
Kitty alone and I

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 10:11 PM

Kitty and I
Had the list in front of me, so I will post it.

Subject: RE: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 09:59 PM

Kitty and I ? Haven't come across that - the only Carter Family song I know with Kitty in the title is the Kitty Waltz ( Sound files

Assuming that's not it, could you post it or post a link to it?

Subject: Carter Family- 'Kitty and I' origin
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 09:56 AM

I was looking at the Carter's "Kitty and I" and wondered if it was a version of the "Kitty Alone" songs.

I've not seen the connection being made anywhere.

What do you think?

-Richie