BS: English Grammar question

Subject: BS: English Grammar question
From: Ed.
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:52 AM

I was having a discussion with someone this morning about the phrase 'Well good' (i.e. very good). It's quite common here with young people. I said that it was grammatically incorrect, and I'm pretty sure that it is. However I'm not sure why.

I said that 'well' was an adverb, and as such shouldn't be used in conjuction with a noun.

It seemed to make sense at the time, but checking my dictionary, 'well' is a noun, adjective, verb and adverb. An adverb is also defined as "A word that qualifies or modifies another, esp. an adjective, a verb, or another adverb"

I'm getting confused here. What rule says that 'well good' is wrong (if indeed it is wrong)?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: IanC
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:08 AM

Grammatical rules describe grammar, they don't determine them. In english, it's perfectly OK to use an adverb as a qualifier.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: weerover
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:10 AM

An adverb can be used to qualify an adverb, adjective or verb, "good" can be (and in this case probably is) an adjective,

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:46 AM

"He was well satisfied" - this has "well" being used as an adjective, and it's perfectly "correct" English. And "well" has the same meaning here as in "well good".

I think the objection is that it isn't a standard English usage, and therefore people assume that it's a matter of the grammar being at fault. There are all kinds of things that aren't standard Ebglish without being ungrammatical - archaic expressions and so forth. (And "well" used in this way does have the feeling of a revived archaic expression.)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Schantieman
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:53 AM

Here's my two penn'orth:

'Well' is either a hole in the ground with water at the bottom (which obviously doesn't apply in this case .... or maybe ....) or an adverb formed irregularly meaning 'goodly', i.e. in a good manner.

How can something be good in anything but a good way? Could it be 'badly good'? 'Well good' is clearly one of those constructions used by - principally - teenagers to stamp their individuality on their speech.   Except, of course, that since they all do it, it doesn't!

This leads me on to bemoaning the change of meaning of loads of other words and phrases, like 'gender' to mean 'sex', many of which tend to cloud meaning. Are we to emulate Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use a word it means exactly what I choose it to mean..." ?

I've probably annoyed enough of you by now! I s'pose I'm just a pedantic old stick-in-the-mud who's well old fashioned. ;-)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: gnu
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:55 AM

Yup. As well, there are plenty of phrases that aren't grammatically correct but are accepted as standard English. I hear very few people say they are going to "try to do it". I constantly hear "try and do it". Like finger nails on a chalkboard to me, eh bye.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:59 AM

"Well hard", "Well pist", "Well gone", are all standard expressions here in Manchester. "Well" can be substituted for "very" in any sentence. Particularly popular is "Well happy".

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Fortunato
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:10 AM

In my opinion this usage is simply redundant and not unpleasant. Rules of grammar, diction and syntax are conventions and redundancy is sometimes tolerated for emphasis. In this case the sound is jarring and clumsy, there is no ly from for the word 'well', but the meaning is clear. Slang is often so and rises or falls through usefulness or simple pervasiveness in the culture. We don't mind Yogi Berra saying "It was like deja vu all over again". It is not a construction I would like to see become common usage, for it degrades the language (IMHOP), but it doesn't bother me as much as people saying 'basically' in EVERY SENTENCE THEY UTTER.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:22 AM

Well, I doubt if Schantieman would see anything wrong in saying "very good". Or "not very good".

"Well good" is just a case of a usage that has been current regionally coming into wider use once again

He may not be very well pleased by it, and I'm not too keen on it myself - but it isn't a matter of it being incorrect grammatically, so far as I can see, or even of there being a change of meaning. It just sounds a bit ugly to many ears, including mine, but that's entirely another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:32 AM

G'day Ed,

It's a sturdy indefensible. (Bill Bryson uses this description for other phrases - in his Penguin Dictionary of Difficult Words). Ultimately, if people keep saying it - and other people keep understanding them ... it's correct!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:05 AM

I really do enjoy our outings into the English language. It is a joy to read such well constructed arguments. My empathy with Schants probably comes from berating my eldest child only this morning for using this 'Well' construction. We have a well in our garden, which I point to, whilst asking "As good as that?"

Long may our debates continue.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM

I don't think its "ugly".
I have a phrase I use when busking to deal with "mivoh" from idiots: -
"If ignorance is bliss; you must be well happy". Emphasis on WELL.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:33 AM

"Well" is normally used to qualify participle, i.e. an adjectival form of a verb, to describe the way in which something has been done: "well pleased", "well qualified", "well trousered, sir!". Although it qualifies an adjective in "well-nigh", this is an almost archaic expression, and shouldn't be used as an authority to construct combinations such as "well good", "well hard" or the like. It's a solecism, like "can't hardly" or the UK English "I've got" (in the sense of "I have", rather than "I have acquired"); and however popular it may be in colloquial speech, it's Bad Grammar. Don't let that put you off saying it, however, if that's how they talk round your way (and you don't find it objectionable yourself); but don't use it in your CV (resumé)!

BTW, "well good" is a tautology, but there's no reason why it shouldn't be deliberately employed as a rhetorical device, in the same way I say "you ... yourself" in the previous paragraph.

Hope that clears things up!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: harvey andrews
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:52 AM

well like y'know er y'know like well like er y'know I er well like this thread like er y'know.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:59 AM

I can't see why "well good" is any more a tautology than "very good" or "extremely good". Good can come in different degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:02 AM

And though "well-nigh" may be archaic (though for an archaic expression it crops up pretty frequently), "well away" is current enough.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:20 AM

'He is well' (well used as adjective)
Fine, since there are differences in degrees of wellness, we also have 'He is very well' or 'he is extremely well'.

I wait for anyone defending 'He is well well' on those grounds.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:36 AM

well means (among other things) good.
Well good (good good) is, therefore, tautology

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:33 AM

Eek! I've just typed "it's well worth a read" in another thread. Off the top of my head, I think well is qualifying the phrase worth a read rather than simply the adjective worth. Isn't there an English teacher out there who can give us the definitive wossname on this vexed question?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:43 AM

When these things become idomatic explaining them by defining their parts becomes a futile exercise. Think about how you would explain these word combinations to a non-English speaker, there you will find your meanings.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: curmudgeon
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:09 AM

While I have never heard the phrase uttered, it is. I suspect, when used by teenagers to be punctuated "Well; good." Well being, or about to become, the substitute for "Yuhknow."

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: IanC
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM

Be damned careful!

Well nigh is not archaic in the circles I move among.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:19 AM

It is a redundancy. On the other hand, English is what is used. Some will use it, some won't. With well luck, it won't stand the test of time and will disappear back into the mists.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: kendall
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:23 AM

My ex often said "O felt badly..." that never sounded right to me, and, I used to ask her why she never said "I felt goodly.."
Opinions please.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:26 AM

Being young (22) and now admitting to using the phrase "well good". It was a phrase that we all used at uni in Yorkshire and it means "really good" the word "well" is just a substitute for the word "really"

Cat

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

gnu! That drives me nuts, too! Hardly anyone seems to get it right!

We use "well said." Or, we punctuate well, so that it is a kind of pause, as in, "Well, I don't know." However, IF we didn't follow "well" with a statement right away, my mom would get a little grin on her face and answer with "It's a deep subject!" I never use "well good," unless it is as a pause, as noted above.

I used to work with a woman who really tangled things up and we still use her expression: when going over sales projections our manager would ask her how certain she was of a particular sale to which she would say, "It's a possible-for-sure-maybe!"

As to "well-nigh"...old timers over here would say "pert near."

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:35 AM

The phrase is neither new nor ungrammatical. I remember the adults around me using it 50 years ago. Your problem is that you left out a part of the phrase. It's not "Well good" but "Well, good". If young people have started dropping the comma.......Well, good; English is like that.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: daithi
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:45 AM

Never mind simple grammar...wha' abou' glo'al stops? I can't remember the last time (if ever) I heard anybody pronounce all the letters in "computer". Even the American ( ;¬) ) "compuder" is an improvement !

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Schantieman
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:51 AM

Well, good: I'm glad some agree. The phrase using a comma is fine - but curmudgeon (how I wish I'd thought of that name!) above is wrong I fear - kids today (audible tut and sigh), don't use it with a comma.

It's not as bad as the sort of misplaced, y'know apostrophe like. ;-)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:53 AM

You should be able to distinguish "well good" from well, good" by intonation: if the emphasis is stronger on "good", the comma is in there; if the emphasis is equal, it isn't.

"Nigh" is archaic. I still say "well nigh" and "nigh on" myself, so there's nothing wrong with archaism! Where we now say "near, nearer, nearest", the now-archaic usages were "nigh, near, next": see how the meanings have changed. I still say "five-and-twenty-to/after" when telling the time, even with my digital watch. (And I still use the old-fashioned hyphens!)

We archaists should stick together and let the youngsters keep their these neologistic abuses like "well good" to themselves. But we shouldn't let self-styled guardians of the language dictate to us. How often do you see old Shake misquoted as "the unkindest cut of all"? Will wrote "The most unkindest ...". If it was good enough for Shapkespeare, it's good enough for Parkes!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: IanC
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:02 PM

That's funny ... I always thought archaic meant not in current usage.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 01:37 PM

I inherited the expression "well and good" from my grandparents, and continue to use it. "Well nigh" is another that I still use. Its rarity today doesn't make it wrong.
"He did it well." To do with skill or aptitude. This usage is in Webster's Collegiate, and the OED (as well).

"Well" takes up nine and one-half pages of fine print in my OED. "Well, my hearties," a multi-volumed treatise could be written on that word alone. We are well on the way.....

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:01 PM

"Nigh" occupies about two pages in my OED. They do not regard it as archaic.
Steve Parkes. "Well worth a read." I use it myself, but taking a red pencil to it, I would change it to "well worth reading. Better or worse?
"Leave well-enough alone." When did that often-heard phrase come into the language?

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:20 PM

That's well nigh the way it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:43 PM

The trouble with saying what is right and wrong in English grammmar is the fact that our grammar is descriptive rather than prescriptive. If you want to construct a sentence in correct,"Hochdeutsch", for example, you must construct it to a strict set of rules laid down not so long ago. If I then have a difference of opinion with say Wolfgang or Susanne, they can both pull down a "Duden" and that will settle the argument very effectively. English grammar is rather used to explain the meaning of words in context - i.e. it is descriptive grammar. As there is no one body to give the last word on what is right and what is wrong, the experts frequently disagree. It gives linguists and philosophers the opportunity to write learned papers on semantics. You can also appreciate why English is very popular with the legal profession!

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:01 PM

My wife's just pointed out that the basis on which we've been talking has grammatically been a bit distorted.

Starting with what Ed said in the opening post: I said that 'well' was an adverb, and as such shouldn't be used in conjuction with a noun.

Leading on to discussions about how "well" can be an adjective and so forth, which varius of us joined in on.

But in this context "good" isn't a noun of course, it's an adjective, and therefore you can only qualify it with an adverb.

Of course that still leaves the question of why it sounds wrong to use "well", a perfectly respectable adverb, to qualify "good", whereas it'd be fine to use "very" or "really". And I think the answer is nothing to do with grammar - it's just that currently it is not idiomatic in Standard English, and therefore qualifies for being a solecism, as Steve Parkes remarked. Defined as "An offence against grammar or idiom..."

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:15 PM

I've been noticing the pseudo-archaic or pseudo-rustic revivalist use of "well" as an alternative for "very" in British English in the last couple of years.

Other usages in the same vein are "He's sat there" for "he's sitting there" and the use of the perfect for the simple past tense (resurrecting the construction "they've laid him on the green" beloved of Catters).

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:40 PM

"well" is just a substitute for the word "really"

I'm not feely really today.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Megan L
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:53 PM

I do not know about (well good) it is not used locally. I do however get very upset by a recent trend even spotted on the BBC to say 'more better than'

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM

Some years ago, "more better" was being called an example of Black ghetto English. I believe that in the ghetto it is "long gone" to use another passé term. Megan L, does this mean it is just becoming current in BBC lingo?

Years ago, the BBC news broadcasts on international radio were listened to wherever English was spoken. The diction was very good. The current hourly International BBC News and Comment, as carried on TV here in Canada, has unfortunately adopted what I would call street English. The anchor news readers mostly have reasonable diction, but some of those giving reports or reviewing world weather cannot be understood by the international audience for whom the programs are prepared. I am not objecting to programs on BBC internet radio using dialect; these stretch our understanding of the English language and are certainly helpful to those interested in folksong. One, about the Blackbird, broadcast a few months ago, is a gem that deserves to be recorded and distributed.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Ed.
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:59 PM

Thanks for the replies.

I'd be gratful for an answer to my question, though.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:30 PM

In my part of Wales we say tidy(good) or real tidy(better)and sometimes half tidy(the best) but that's welsh grammar.
Bill(the sound)

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:54 PM

Well, GUEST Q, glad you brought " Black ghetto English" They called that "ebonics". Well, we got the same thing *going down* out here in this Wes Ginny holler and it's called "Bubba-onics" and Iz just checked out the "Bubbaonics Grammer Book" and Iz here to tell ya' that "well good" ain't good English at all. But it is acceptable ifinz ya' put a comma between 'em like:

"Well, good shine, Rufus. And real good smooth, too."

See how that flows and ya' don't have to worry about offending no adverds or paranthetical this's of that's, fir that matter.

I hoped that helped ya'all out and ifinz ya got any more questions about the English language, you got the right guy fir the job.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM

Where did this Ed come from? What question? Oh, we should read the initial post? Heaven forfend!
I think that there is more than one answer lost in all the discussion. Posts by Steve Parkes and McGrath give reasonable answers.
A teacher long ago asked us to always inquire of ourselves, "What does it mean to me? I. Does it mean anything to me? Then ask, 2. Does it mean anything to the group I associate with? If it does, there is nothing wrong with its use in colloquial speech. A problem does develop, however, if we extend use of a phrase beyond its boundaries. The auditors give questioning looks or "close their ears." One must consult one of the style-grammer books put out by the book publishers.

I have heard "Well, good!" as long as I can remember (I am 80) and find it sits well with me. So I guess I ain't fixin' to upset Bobert. The use in Manchester would give me pause, but not if I lived there.

Ebonics- I have enough trouble with English as she was spoke. The word is not in my Webster's Collegiate (1996 Tenth Ed.) nor my OED (even more antique, dated 1987). Things must be more up-to-date in Bobertville than where I live. I supppose it is derived from ebony or black. I presume it started as some academics coined noun. Adjectival ebonic? Of course! Black ghetto phraseology of my generation will be referred to as pre-ebonic. Eventually we will refer to the post-ebonic period and after that a new word will have to be coined by the academics of 2040. Such is English!

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:37 PM

Yes, GUEST Q,, "such is English", but now this post-ebonic period ain't gonna get here on time. Reality rearin' it's head, that English is more influenced by ebonics than vise-versa. I mean, like "What it is?" Hmmmmmm, Part 1.

Yeah, there's folks who would argue that it is dumbing-down and I won't get into an intellectual volley on that subject but will go out on a limb to give credit to those who know least about grammer and history of the English language for taking it to new heights.... or lows, dependin' on one's *altitude, latitude*.

And to those folks who have dared to step out of and on Mr. Webster, *Right on*...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:38 PM

There is whore-ific beauty to the English tongue.

We will adopt, amend, and apoint any pragmaticaly USEFUL element we stumble across.

Read Chaucer (I'm devouring him at the moment for a bout of winter insomnia) or Shakespeare or Beowolf....the language, dispite the bastions of grammer, has changed....and This Is WONDERFUL.

In contrast look across the channel to the French who have held their bastion of Un-Wavering French-ness and thereby LOST their hold on the "international language of diplomacy".

IF it WORKS - use IT!!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:39 PM

Bobert, I be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:45 PM

No you bain't.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:23 PM

Ed:

There is no rule that says it is wrong. It is just awkward and unpopular.

"Well" does NOT mean "very". It means, when used in this sense, "to a satisfactory or significant degree". as in "well away", "well nigh", "well along in years".

It also of course means "in a good way" as in "he was well-served" or "well turned out". It also means good in general, as "He is well".

"Well good" is a dialectal expression, not mainstream or standard English, but it has a certain ring to it, because it harkensd back to older usages like the expression "Well and good". I wouldn't worry about it. It may be unusual, but it certainly, to my mind, has enough precedent to be "legal",


A

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:36 PM

Well, Gargoyle, I may not remember much about my experiences in college but I rememebr that Chaucer feller tried his best to flunk my poor ol boney Wes Ginny butt out. Had to take him out fie a few cold ones and tell him tom loosen up, I did...

(Ahhh, Bobert, Chaucer's been dead for a long, long time. Like *hundreds* of years...)

Details....

Like I was sayin', Gargoyle, before I got so rudely interupted by myself, that Chaucer guy spelled worser than me. I mean, like "brids"? Yeah, after the fact, all the high brows come forth and say that there is no such word as "bird"! Ha, I say. If that were so then I wouldn't have *bird* feeders and *bird* baths in my yard, I's have *brid* feeders and baths and my poor *birds* would starve to death.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 01:22 AM

"Grammar" isn't sacrosanct; check Stephen King--he's a world bestseller.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 02:47 AM

McGrath, "I be wrong" or "I be ready" are examples of ebonic language heard from inner city Black children. In a few city schools, pupils at first may be taught conventional English along with an acceptance of ebonic language, but I had quite forgotten that these phrases may appear in some English regional dialects (as well). I be forgetful.
Bobert, Robert Graves did a good job of putting Chaucer's Canterbury Tales into modern English. The traditionalists hate it.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Declan
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 08:08 AM

A question if something is particularly Wickid should it be described as "well good" or "well bad" ?

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:57 AM

Anybody got any problems with people saying things are "dead good"?

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:59 AM

Our world-champion football hooligans like to think of themselves as "well hard"

WassaiL! v

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:34 AM

kendall: My ex often said "O felt badly..." that never sounded right to me, and, I used to ask her why she never said "I felt goodly.." Opinions please.

Opinions? We don't need no stinkin' opinions! We got the immortal truth--

"Felt badly" means your fingers weren't working properly, and you did a poor job of feeling some object.

"Felt bad" means you were ailing. In this sense, the verb "feel" is taken to be a variation of the verb "is." So one might say "I am good," "I feel good," "I am sick," "I feel sick," "I am bad," "I feel bad" (not that these have the same meaning, but rather the same type of constuction)--but one does not say "I am badly" nor "I feel badly" in this sense.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Soma
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM

What about "well off".
Explain that Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: English Grammar question
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 03:25 PM

Young folks have a habit of changing meanings in midstream. In ebonic language, "I be Bad" was given as meaning I did it incorrectly, or I did something I shouldn't have. Now it means I did something far out, therefore exceptional. The older usage continues, so inflection becomes part of it. Gary T, verbs such as feel, am, etc. are all replaced by "be," e. g. "I be sick." To stretch it out, they might say, "I be, like, sick."

I remember excuses for failure to show up for class- "I felt badly so I went to the dorm and collapsed" was a common one (meaning- I looked up my girlfriend, or me and my buddies went to the local Cheers and got tanked). This at university level.