Rap Music

Subject: RAP Music. Ignore it?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 04:56 PM

Mudcat has just closed a thread posted by a Black rapper requesting lyrics about a song that already has developed many folk variations, "Fifty N-----."
I agree that rap is beyond our scope, and understand deletion of the thread. On the other hand, we are rejecting a large part of new Black composed and folk music. Anyone who has read anything about ebonics knows that there is another language out there and that it is affecting the English we speak.
Yoyotlg apologized for submitting his request to this Forum ("My bad"); but is it "our bad" for cutting him off without an explanation?
I think some discussion is needed here.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 05:17 PM

For some of us, chanting (often violent,sexist and indeed racist) doggerel over drum machines is not really a serious attempt at making music - thus rendering the expression "rap music" a contradiction in terms. I personally loath it, although it may be defensible as a form of folk "music" on the basis that it now has a tradition stretching back some fifteen years. Fot me it's a very good reason to turn off a radio.
Now I am going to put my head down and duck for cover - because I know there is something unfragrant and messy coming my way!

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM

I didn't see the thread... What was the reason for its deletion?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 07:21 PM

Beyond scope? Please point me to the Mudcat statement of scope so I can satisfy myself that no other posts are beyond scope.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 07:27 PM

Check out Rick Fileding's thread about Rap/Folk. Some very interesting stuff.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 09:48 PM

C-rap is not music, it is noise pollution of the worst kind. The culture around it is negative, and indeed racist, sexist, and violent.
The sooner all rappers are on the endangered species list the better.
I believe it will happen given the present rate of murders in the rap culture.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 10:22 PM

Rap music grew out of other traditions, both in the USA and more especially in the West Indies, with roots backmin Africa.

The music industry has cynically decided to concentrate largely on the nastiest varieties, and encourage and reward then, while effectively freezing out and starving out people who have tried to use the form in different ways, closer to the spirit of the traditional roots.

Don't blame the rappers, blame the money-machine that will try to corupt anything it gets hold of. Thank God that folk-music is out of fashion these days.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 10:24 PM

Rap music grew out of other traditions, both in the USA and more especially in the West Indies, with roots back in Africa.

The music industry has cynically decided to concentrate largely on the nastiest varieties, and encourage and reward them, while effectively freezing out and starving out people who have tried to use the form in different ways, closer to the spirit of the traditional roots.

Don't blame the rappers, blame the money-machine that will try to corrupt anything it gets hold of. Thank God that folk-music is out of fashion these days.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 11:28 PM

Rap is not music and has no roots except in USA black punks

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 12:06 AM

I've heard a very nice hip-hop version of “Talking Union” that sure sounded like rap except it was “Talking Union”. I can't remember right now who did it.

Don't you think that to trash rap because some of it is offensive is similar to trashing magazines because some of them are offensive?

Thirty-five or so years ago, we used to delight in singing songs that pissed of the straights. Did we think the day would never come when we became the problem the new young radicals would sing about?

Just one point of view.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:11 AM

Rap is not music and has no roots except in USA black punks

What a profound knowledge of folklore that GUEST clearly has...

This site deserves study Toasts & Other Roots of Rap

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:30 AM

I have often tried to find something enjoyable in rap music but have failed every time. Many young people visit my home as friends of my children or as students of my music instruction business. Once in a while someone expresses an appreciation of rap but always say they prefer other things and that much rap is not to their tastes.

I agree that rap may have roots which run deep in a culture unfamiliar to me, and I wish as such it was better known. However, all the rap I've heard has either been trite pretenders or modern goons with little or no apparent knowledge of rap's history, and an inclination to capitalize on the themes of violence, vanity, and noise. In that respect I do blame the rappers.

Even if I could put aside my dislike of monotonous droning chant, I fail to see virtue in the message, the image, or the ethic. Educate me.

Whatever happened to peace, love, and understanding?

Mooh.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:57 AM

Many people who like rap don't like the rap people describe when they say why they hate it. Some I like--usually the crowded, rough, multi-voiced stuff, gets something like that Wattersons sound, and some of the stuff that uses collaged samples of moody jazz. De la soul? I think, had a good record. Some Diggable Planets stuff. But I get tired of it, don't like enough to really follow it. It's certainly folk music, but as a question of filing it, most people would just say rap, hip hop, wouldn't look for it under Folk, so I don't see much reason to worry over it as a sensitivity or inclusion question. Most record stores Rap sections are triple the Folk.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Grab
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:19 AM

Really depends on your POV.

If you say "all rap is like what I hear on the radio", does that also mean that "all folk is what I hear on the radio"? So folk music is defined by Westlife and the Corrs? Hell, I hope not!

How much of what's on the radio from other genres is manufactured rubbish? Why should rap be any different?

Re the violence and sexism, blues has a long line of that, and folk music is replete with murder ballads and sexist, racist songs of every description. "Know thyself" indeed.

Incidentally, I've tried to see something good in Atomic Kitten, Will Young, Gareth Gates, Liberty X, HearSay...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:19 AM

In my opinion, rap is misogynistic, racist, violence-inciting, amusical crap that probably reflects a misogynistic, racist, violence-prone culture. While there are high-profile performers attaining commercial success, there are many more in small venues or garages, or starving on street corners. Sounds like folk to me. Butt ugly folk, but folk.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:37 AM

I remember the late Steve Allen did a bit where he would stand at a podium and read lyrics to pop songs of the day. He read them as if they were important works of art - poetry. I laughed along as he showed how ridiculous disco music was.   However, I remember him reading a Dylan song to an audience that was in stitches with his delivery of what sounded like childish drivel.   

What I took away from that is how important delivery can be. You can either elevate or mock a song.

To ridicule rap as monotonous, droning, racist, trite, non-music, etc. completely misses the point.   You don't have to "get it", and you are certainly entitled to listen to something else.   I cannot tolerate Gilbert & Sullivan. I would rather sit through root canal instead of The Mikado. However I do appreciate that the work G&S created has appeal to people and can be considered art.    Rap is the same thing. Obviously it speaks to a HUGE audience. Granted quantity does not mean quality, but it obviously shows that there are people who "get it".

As for the subject matter, I give them credit even if I don't agree with their politics. The FACT that these lyrics are speaking out on issues is something that can't be said for a lot of naval-gazing singer-songwriters and pop music artists.

You don't have to agree with something to repect it.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:53 AM

Jeez, Steve I certainly can't remember doing anything on rap in a thread, but then again I can't remember what I had for breakfast today, and that was only three hours ago. Whatever it was, I've probably changed my views since then.....assuming that I've been paying attention for the last three years or so. The day my opinions become static (or my politics, for that matter) is the day they become completely irrelevant to me.

As far as rap goes, I'd gather that were I young, black, and pissed off, I'd probably embrace it wholeheartedly. The more it annoyed mainstream society, the more I'd probably get into it. I certainly remember Loving Phil Ochs, who REALLY annoyed the mainstream of 1966, ha ha!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:11 AM

I don't know about all the sexist, racist, misogynist thing. One aspect of rap is that it's often funny, and comic songs are hard to write, apparently--I can't think of many really funny popular songs, they get coy and clever without being very funny. A lot of comedy reacts against p.c. codified notions, and some of it is actually funny, to me. I've never heard a rap song as straightforwardly misogynist as Rocks Salt and Nails, or as butt-ugly as Run For Your Life, and it's a tough task to be bloodier than Trad Folk--might as well try to out-porn the ancient Greeks. Rap is a very young idiom, born in a hard place, and suffering from being hyper-commercialised. I'd rather keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:27 AM

Rap is not a young tradition. Listen to Seas Chanties. I also knew of at least two combat Marines that released two albums in 1968 of rap music about their experiences during the war.

Steve

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: kendall
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:43 AM

Rap is to music what Etch-a-sketch is to art.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Guest A
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:47 AM

Calling myself "A" because I started this thread, and other guests are contributing.
Rap is the music of the inner city Blacks. As noted ib some threads, the music industry is capitalizing and spreading commercial versions around the world. Now no major city in the north America is without a rap radio station.
Do I like it? No. But I also realize that it is the music of millions and much larger than folk, country and the other branches of music we talk about here.
Unfortunately, we are only one half of what remains two solitudes, the white and the black (borrowing from the title of a book by a Canadian author talking about the separation between the French and English in Canada). We get almost no Black input here at Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 12:38 PM

I saw the thread in question. The person asking for the lyrics never said what race s/he was or that s/he was a rapper. It doesn't matter. S/He just asked for the lyrics. We don't know that stuff unless the poster volunteers the information and half the time they're lying anyway. It really can't matter. If language is racist, it's racist regardless of who says it. To judge something OK or not based on the race of who's saying it is...racist.

Also, in this case, the thread had to have been deleted because ...because why? It's not the language. We've had worse. It's not because the person was asking for a modern song. That happens all the time. My guess is it was perceived to be a troll even after the person had apologised. But I guess we need parents to make sure we don't keep it going.

Guest A, I don't even think we're one half of one 'solitude.' We're a very small part of that solitude and we've separated traditional music from tradition. Or if you like, we've taken the music of the people away from the people - heaven knows they can't be trusted with it! (Deliberately not useing the "f" word.)

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Mark Clark
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:30 PM

I found the reference to the rap version of “Talking Union”. It's by John McCutcheon and Corey Harris and is included in an album of Pete Seeger's songs by other people.

The song link is to ArtistDirect and lists the tracks on the album. You can click the appropriate speaker icon to hear a short RealAudio clip from the track. Check it out!

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,The Etch-a-sketch kid
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:33 PM

"Rap is to music what Etch-a-sketch is to art." How dare anyone ridicule Etch-a-sketch this fine prewindows device has taught me all I know about art ha ha..

Wasnt there a type of rap around in the sixties or seventies....British (scouse) Comedian and actor(probably best known these days for appearing in "Red Dwarf") Craig Charles used to do a very enjoyable line in rapping....that was nice to hear and very often excellent poetry...Does anybody recall that style of rapping, it was so much more pleasing to my ear at least than what passes for rap today??????...

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,J
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:38 PM

I'm a guest who hasn't posted previously to this thread. I too saw the thread in question, and agree with Jeri's recollection of it. I didn't realize it was deleted, don't understand why it was deleted, and don't think it should have been, as it was completely innocuous.

We see strong language used in folk songs discussed here all the time. Many people love to sing murder ballads, rape ballads, and about all sorts of things every bit as violent and misogynist as anything rap has in it.

And not all rap fits the violent, misogynist label either. Give a listen to Last Poets sometime.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Les in Manchester
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:54 PM

It either does something to you or it doesn't.

Some music is simple and effective and some is complex and ineffective.

As Martin Carthy said on that TV programme about him "It's simple it comes out of someone's mouth and it goes into someone elses ear.

Some of the abuse above says more about the people who write it than it does about Rap.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:58 PM

"misogynistic, racist, violence-inciting, amusical crap"

Not like folk music at all is it then?? Which is mostly about cheating on wives, murdering husbands and children, drinking and fighting in wars they never understand, and knocking up barmaids...

Get off your collective high horses...

You ever stop to think that perhap you are NOT the target audience (and I'm sure the rappers are very happy about that)

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:09 PM

It's just that I'm happy to be sung too but very soon wound up when I'm shouted at.

Some years ago when rap was just starting I was trying to buy some shoes for my son who has size 11 feet. Now not only was it difficult to find the size, we had to find a pair he liked. By the sixth shop I was a taut bowstring ready to snap and when the shop's speakers started yelling at me backed by a drum beat of two hundred to the minute I could take it no longer and found myself standing on a a chair beating the speaker with my hat and yelling "Shut up you moron..SHUT UP!!"

A crowd of people gathered to watch through the shop window.
I read an article on Mathers the other day and the lyric they quoted for my admiration had him rhyming "Math" with "Half". Now that's just plain lazy and not Cole Porter.

My feeling is that both black music as represented by Rap and the culture it comes from is a blind alley and I hope for the good of everybody that that young culture reverses out of there and finds a good road for a better journey.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,The Etch-a-sketch kid
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:10 PM

Thanx for the pointer Guest J to the "Lost poets" now thats quality rap music...the sort of stuff I remembered hearing before todays modern commercial abomination ....

The lost poets (you can listen to some wav samples here)

You can listen to dozens of good old classical English sound poems and acoustic music of many types at

acoustic musicians and poets sound archive

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Guest A
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:18 PM

Put "Fifty Niggas" in Google, and 87 results come up. A French site prints a selection of Black rap from Dr. Dre. Dr Dre lyrics .
The content may stretch one's mind in directions it doesn't want to go, but the language of the street is expressive if not always understandable.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:20 PM

Harvey,

Anger management classes!!! Imagine music being so subversive that you had to take it out on a speaker! Talk about inspiration music!!!!

From your reaction to Rap music, I guess you went through what every parent has gone through - not understanding and getting pissed off by the music of their children's generation.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 02:27 PM

"found myself standing on a a chair beating the speaker with my hat and yelling"

Try decaf, or therapy...

"that young culture reverses out of there and finds a good road for a better journey."

Thank you Mr High-and-mighty... should we all cut our hair like you do too? wear the same clothes? speak the same language??

What did that other white guy sing?

"Don't criticize what you don't understand"

Leave rap, and hip-hop, and ebonics etc. to the people who's culture it is... And I'll bet you don't even WANNA hear what they think of us and our 'music' (And I use the term loosely)

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:18 PM

Clinton, you've hit the nail on the head--

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:36 PM

When I listen to rap, it's by accident, but there have been at least two pleasant accidentsof rap over the years. "The Gucci Man", which I believe was done by Doug E Doug is a genuine piece of art, and shows what a good rapper can do. Another was called "Butter Beans", I don't know the artist, I heard it on a store PA system. It's all about southern cooking and had some pretty clever lyrics. So I'm willing to say that rap can be enjoyable, it's just that the stuff we usually hear is just shouting with rhythm.

And I've seen some darned fine Etch-a-Sketch work. Like rap, anyone can do it, but only a few can do it well.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:06 PM

Well,got some people angry there! Seems anger and rap are indivisible.

I understand some people think an unmade bed is art.

I just think culture built around drugs, guns, violence and woman hating is a blind alley for the young men and women trapped in it. And if it's high and mighty to think there's a better way and a better culture out there for those kids..then so be it.But then, once a teacher always a teacher I suppose.

In the shop incident by the way I was criticising the shop for pouring out youth oriented dance music at the wrong time in the wrong place. In a social experiment in the North of England they tried a novel way to clear anti-social youths out of a shopping mall. They played classical music. Apparantly it worked like a charm and the kids left. Delius's music got them out quickest. But then I suppose they too were expressing criticism of what they didn't understand.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:12 PM

Outstanding, Clinton, outstanding. I don't pretend to have the slightest notion of what it's like being brought up and living in South Bronx, Watts, Compton or wherever but I love Rap Rhythms. On the subject of the attitude to women sometimes heard, I would point out that most of the highly thought of black blues artists were hardly shining examples of respect to the ladies.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:21 PM

"drugs, guns, violence and woman hating"

Sounds very 'folk music' to me!

You just described 98% of the music that gets called "celtic"... OR blues as FB above pointed out...

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: death by whisky
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM

I entertain people with songs about drnkeness,adultery,treachery,mob-violence,war,shooting,even beheading.Is the content of rap any different?.What about all the metal/grunge/thrash type music.Not exactly diddle-de-de.But thats what the young people listen to.My parents werent too keen on Rush/Horslips/ACDC/Sex Pistols/Undertones etc etc.Now I sing what Mum wanted in the first place...mmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM

"You don't have to agree with something to respect it"

"It's almost impossible to respect what you don't agree with."

Discuss.

(Don't argue, don't shout!)

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:29 PM

I read an article on Mathers the other day and the lyric they quoted for my admiration had him rhyming "Math" with "Half".

That looks weird in print, but maybe it might not be so weird when spoken aloud. Math does rhyme with Half in some accents, with "Th" becoming "F", and a short "a" in Half, so that it would be Maff and Haff. Of course, whether the guy in question uses that kind of pronunciation I don't know. I've never got into listening to rap much myself.

One of the types of music in which rap is rooted, and which has developed alongside it (in a much more interesting and less commercially degraded way) is Dub, coming from Jamaica (and with roots in American music - this kind of pl;process goes round in circles). Here is a site with some interesting sound files; and here is a site with an essay about this type of music, and a massive bibliography and some good links.

As has been said, if you judged folk music by some of the stuff that gets the most media coverage, you'd be badly misjudging it.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:34 PM

"You don't have to agree with something to respect it"

Well, there's a good few people round the Mudcat whom I respect while disagreeing with things they say.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:35 PM

I don't know if I'll look up that rap version of Talking Union that Mark provided links to, but Corey Harris is friggin' great. Apparently he's branching into rap, because I've only heard him do more blues and traditional sounding stuff. I think similarities of rap to some European folk are one of those coincidental things, like how Persian kilims look like Navaho designs--my sister followed African performance art up into early rap, and claims that the slang "cool" goes back to a eighteenth century Frenchman's description of the attitudes of Yoruba dancers.

I still don't think it's a big deal if the post was deleted, or wasn't. It's just a filing thing, basically. I doubt many people here know much rap, and there are many better places to get Rap info, I'm sure.

   But I still remember the Christmas my mom picked up my gift to her, and shook it saying I wonder what this could be? Mom, it was The Last Supper on an etch-a-sketch.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:53 PM

Harvey - you wrote
"It's almost impossible to respect what you don't agree with"

Well I don't agree with your statement, but I still respect you.

Your statement (which you put in quotes but I don't think anyone on this thread said that) is really what is wrong with the world. Of course there are disagreements, but when the respect for the other sides view disappears we end up with chaos and war.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:04 PM

Ron, I see your point, but the more I think of it the more I know I don't respect foxhunters, Maggie Thatcher, the Royal family,George Bush, Osama Bin laden, The IRA..should I go on?
But I do know I disagree with all of them.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM

Respect is an odd word. If I disagree with an idea strongly, I don't actually respect it, I despise it - but that doesn't mean I might not respect the person who holds it, or respect their right to hold it.
It's partly a matter of how strongly I disagree with the idea. There are Tories I respect (not Maggie Thatcher), and I'd respect their right to hold their views; but I feel a bit different about Nazis, or woman-haters.

When it comes to aesthetics, there's plenty of music I can't stand, and books I can't read but I'm willing to admit that the failing is very possibly in my inability to understand and appreciate them. And the same goes for lots of other things where I disagree, but aren't that confident that I'm wholly right.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:36 PM

Respect is mutual. If a person cannot respect the rights of others, then they do not deserve respect.

In the discussion of rappers, if they COMMIT the acts that they sing about - or actually support it, then I would not respect them either. However my point is that with music I respect the artists right to create art.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:42 PM

Damn! This is getting good, and I have to go and teach. Bugger. By the time I get back, everybody'll be agreeing and respecting and yada yada.

I think sometimes we use the word "respect" when we really mean "like". If someone here (Mudcat) absolutely disagrees with my view on....say.....abortion, or attacking Iraq, or whether religion should have ANY part in Govt. or whether I might feel that the President of the U.S. is all but illiterate....I can't see how they could POSSIBLY respect me, simply because if I had my way, many of their dearest beliefs would be diminished, and vice versa. Now, we may have met (or chatted ) and get along famously in a number of areas like music, sports, or whatever. And maybe they like the idea that I'm not rude, and am always willing to LISTEN to another point of view (if they've invested in the subject) but bottom line...can you RESPECT someone who disagrees with many of your core values? I'm simply not sure. I've SAID I respect someone whom I REALLY disagree with, but maybe I simply LIKE them.

Just thinking out loud.

Rap on folks

Rick

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:04 PM

Sure you can Rick. Perhaps it is just semantics. I feel that you are just confusing "respect" and "like".   To me, respect is understanding how the person is building their opinion or idea , understanding their environment, how they are treating others, and as the saying goes "walking a mile in their shoes".   You don't have to agree with what they are trying to do or say, but if you can understand where they are coming from - that is respect. Like or dislike has nothing to do wit hit, it is simply acknowledging their right to form their opinion based on values.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:27 PM

Sorry Ron, I'm trying like hell to understand your point but I'm with Rick. I understand how Hitler, Thatcher, Bush, Bin Laden etc build their opinions and ideas, I understand their environment, but I ain't walking an inch in their shoes. Sometimes you have to judge and find guilty and the guilty don't get my respect. Neither does the local racist, bigot, etc.Respect, I was brought up to understand, is a thing that has to be earned.There are musicians whose music does little for me but they have my respect as being damned good at doing what doesn't turn me on, but coming back to rap, I can't respect someone who does something I actively believe is harmful,dumbed down, and exploitative, as a lot of it is.(Not all.)

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Bert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:37 PM

...Rap music grew out of other traditions, both in the USA and more especially in the West Indies, with roots backmin Africa....

and

...Wasnt there a type of rap around in the sixties or seventies....

The earliest that I recall was around 1948, The Billy Cotton Band Show.

Down in the Jungle
Living in a tent
Better than a prefab
- No Rent!

Does anyone have earlier examples?

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM

"Down in the jungle" came from ITMA with Tommy Handley, the radio precursor of the Goons.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Bert
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:17 PM

Wow! Thanks Harvey, I knew Billy Cotton used to do it. Didn't know that Tommy Handley started it.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:37 PM

Respect has something to do with recognising integrity. Armchair generals and armchair revolutionaries deserve less respect from people who disagree with than people who risk their lives what they believe in.

I think you can respect qualities in people even when overall you despise what they do and what they stand for.

That surely applies in political and related matters, and in music and literature and so forth.

I think it's quite possible to respect and admire the musicianship of people even when you loathe what they use it for, and the personal qualities which are reflected in that choice on their part.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: kendall
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:12 PM

Rap is to music what graffiti is to literature.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:43 PM

Way back in time, I seem to remember learning that such poems as "Beowulf" and Homer's two epics (among many others) were recited to "music." Now, ripping off a monster's arm and causing him to bleed to death is certainly violent...and what the monster did was too. And I'm not even going into such things as dragging body around a city, carrying off someone's wife, or murdering a returning veteran as he takes a bath.

Sex and violence, man! Sex and violence.

I don't like rap, at least most of that which I've heard, and I particularily don't like white guys who grew up lacking little or nothing trying to sound like black have-nots. Rip-offs are rip-offs.

Interestingly, "dissing" comes from "disrespecting"....

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:01 PM

Thanks McGrath, you summed it up.

Sorry Harvey, I guess I'm not explaining myself. Somehow a discussion about music and art and turned it into a defense of monsters. I'm not saying that you can respect everyone. I certainly can't find respect for Hitler or Bin Laden and I can't tolerate an insinuation that I was. Can I respect a George W. or a Margaret Thatcher? Good point, I may have been to quick to suggest that you can, although it is possible. There is a point of "walking" in another person's shoes to figure out what forms their point of view. Certainly with the Hitler's of the world the answer comes out of fear, hatred, and insanity. You can't respect that.

Getting back to rap and music, my point was that even if you don't agree with a person's point of view, you can respect the art they are trying to create - based on what they are doing with their art. MOST rap artists that I've heard (forget what the media promotes) are talking about the human condition and promoting empowerment. I respect an artist who is making their voice heard and inspiring people to think about more than the drivel that passes for pop music.   

The negatives that have voiced about rap music focus on violence, racism, and homophobia. To discredit rap music for that, or to say that it promotes that is like saying that folk music promotes incest. You can't make blanket statments about a genre of music because the media has focused on a small segment. No, I do not respect the songs that promote hatred and violence and I would not repect a folksong or singer-songwriter who tried to accomplish the same thing. It is not art to hurt another.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:04 PM

I guess you don't consider haiku literature either Kendall? Look at Keith Haring. There are some great graffiti artists.   

Technically, I don't think a poem or graffiti would be literature.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:18 PM

I teach some rap and new rock music. Rap is definately in the white rock mainstream and is one direction new music is headed. Many new rock songs have sections of rapped lyrics.

I say there's nothing wrong with it. I think it should be OK to allow rap and other types of music to be dicussed here.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,A
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:40 PM

I think Ron Olesko and Richie have the right take on this. Some of the music is damn thought-provoking. Not all of it is centered on violence. Most of it, as someone mentioned, is about the human condition, from personal to all-inclusive. The presentation grates on me, and my ears take a beating, but I remember when my kids were playing Jefferson Airplane, The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. on the basement set-up. Now I realize that some of those people were damn good, inventive musicians.
I have caught up to their messages. I still prefer older folk, blues and classical music ("my kind"). I can't shed my spots but maybe I can add some different sizes and shapes to them.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:35 AM

Okay Ron, point taken. Live and let live, but let's keep it out of the shopping mall speakers or I might have to walk around with a sound system strapped to my body playing Delius. That'd shift the bastards!!

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:18 AM

... and you would be no different than those who carry boom boxes!

There is a certain civility and ... respect... that all parties should maintain.   There is no reason for a retail store to blare out ANY type of music.

Sample everything! I bet Delius had trouble in his time!

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:43 AM

I think a few people may be missing the point of rap playing into the stereotyped black male, the big bad wolf, which rap didn't invent, but uses. Again, it can be very deeply funny, transgressive, inventive. The closest Tupac Shakur was to a gang when he was growing up was the mouse king in the nutcracker. It doesn't matter to me musically whether someone white or black had it hard or not.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:06 AM

If being dirt poor and disadvantaged were the only requirements I'd be king of the rappers.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:18 AM

Harvey,

THe image of you standing on a chair and beating a speaker with your hat is one which will stay with me for years. Thanks for having the hutzpah --even if under provocation--to do that!! Made my morning!


A

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:32 AM

I was teaching a "pop" culture course at Winston Salem State, a predominently African-American school. We were studying rap music and its effect on culture. I asked my students to bring in some CD's so we could analyze the music.

I warned students that if they were offended by the lyrics that they didn't have to participate and could be excused from class (none responded).

So we put on a "gangsta" rap CD and cranked it up. Much to my surprise the head of the music department came in the class. He came in and caught some %&%^^%#^ and @#%^$^. I turned off the CD and he turned red as a beet (he is African-American also but does that matter).

I still consider rap to be an art form and a music form and it's not just for blacks so don't stero (boom box)type it.

Is Kemo Kimo is a rap song?
Teemy tim-o in the land of neo Pharoah said a rat trap peeny winkle timey doodle rattle buggy rat trap peenie winkle tie me oh (just kidding).

-Richie

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: meatrail
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 05:29 PM

There's some Rap I like real well. I don't see why any music site should be all things to all people or why folks should feel apologetic about if they ain't. Sounds like most folks here don't care too much for Rap or know too much about it and like Wittgenstein said,"That of which we do not know is that of which we should not speak" or some such or mebbe it was Dan Quayle said it. Not that you ain't entitled to your opinions on sampling a little bit of something. You're on the right track when you didn't hold yourselves out as Rap Music experts when the first guest asked his question.

Tunney

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 06:49 PM

"You ever stop to think that perhap you are NOT the target audience (and I'm sure the rappers are very happy about that" Clinton Hammond

"...the answer comes out of fear, hatred, and insanity. You can't respect that. Ron Olesko

Just yesterday I sat here at the computer with a 41-year-old friend who used to be the sound man for a traveling punk band. He was telling me that some rap is GOOD, "not that I expect you
So I said, 'OK, let's read some lyrics.' I put 'Eminem' into Google.
We sat here and read five or six 'songs'...

Elvis may have trivialized 'love' but there's no way anyone can say that he promoted gang rape, murder, incest, stalking, or the ugly imagery of committing sundry varieties of harm.

I have no problem with the language - I am an adult. I'm also not going to act out what I listened to. But the target audience is our young'uns.

After linking to that and to the above rap links, the only thing I'm afraid of is that I'm going to start getting some really odd spam!

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:51 PM

Just yesterday I sat here at the computer with a 41-year-old friend who used to be the sound man for a traveling punk band. He was telling me that some rap is GOOD, "not that I expect you

So I said, 'OK, let's read some lyrics.' I put 'Eminem' into Google.
We sat here and read five or six 'songs'...

Elvis may have trivialized 'love' but there's no way anyone can say that he promoted gang rape, murder, incest, stalking, or the ugly imagery of committing sundry varieties of harm.

Beware! The Rap Gods are on the loose. Part of my post disappeared. It should have said:

"...some rap is GOOD, "not that I expect you/em> to like it", given my age/history/bent. He also said that Presley in his time had generated the same kind of negative attention from parents, clergy and 'good' musicians as rap 'musicians' are getting.

"So I said, 'OK, let's read some lyrics', etc, etc.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Glade
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 05:22 PM

Ah, Tunney, m'dear, would that Dan Quayle had studied Wittgenstein!
Glade

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 05:27 PM

I hate to sound like a snob, but, Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 05:44 PM

Well, thiis is a bit pedantic on my part, but that's just another word for wanting to keep things accurate. But surely "mediocrity" just means doing something middling well, and that covers most people most of the time.

I don't see that the fact that I might do some things, like playing the guitar, moderately well in any way gets in the way of my admiring people who can play the guitar a lot better than I do. In fact I'd say it helps me appreciate what they are doing a lot more than I would if I didn't play.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 09:10 PM

Kendall, as the senator from New Mexico (?) said, when called 'mediocre', "Mediocre people need representation too".

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,uncle bud
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 09:46 PM

Isnt Rap Music an oxymoron? Bud

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From:
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 09:59 PM

Interesting point raised a while back: is rap folk music? If so, most of us would be troubled by rejecting it, not because we're in love with the label, but because there's an ethic of self-restraint that kicks in when you approach the material of another folk. I'm thinking I would react very differently to the same material I took away from my kid (Tupac, Eminem) if it were being played live (and in a club or other intimate, human-scale venue, rather than a stadium-size concert). Nope, what's on the radio is mass-produced crap, poisonous posturing. You hate to court charges of racism by rejecting a form of music considered "black," but I know more than a few black people who resent the hell out the identification of rap culture as black culture, and cheerfully reject the "culture" of adolescent hedonism, violence, sexism, indolence, arrogance, grandiosity, laziness and the self-indulgent pose of despair, along with the mystifying assumption that all of this shitheadedness is supposed to be exitentially heroic.

Several noted that more traditional folk music (sure, call it "white" folk) deals with ugly stuff too. But not in celebratory ways, and here's the really important point: it comes from a different economy of music, pre-recording; its dynamics assume face-to-face presence, reciprocity and equality between singer and listeners. Under those conditions, there's a back-&-forth that makes the song a communal production, and imposes mutaul contstraints -- constraints which ARE the warrant by which such music is called "folk." What makes a music folk is not the performer or the style, but the total interactive event (though styles, once sufficiently invested in this dynamic, can summon appropriate responses from those listening even to recordings, at least until the original event-types or venues which trained the listener in this type of response disappear altogether). Rap, on the other hand, is a one-way communication, rooted in individual, personal aggression and the tawdriest of ambitions -- superstardom, celebrity without reference to the value of what makes you notorious.

Or a completely different level of rejection, and maybe too deep for me this late: aesthetics has always been a branch of philosophy because it's always been understood, intuitively, that what you think is Beautiful must be closely linked to what you think is True and to what you think is Good. Rap, at least the commercial stuff which is all, I admit, I'm acquainted with (and that as little as possible) makes noxious propositions on all three.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 10:37 AM

Wow, the above thoughtful post, with which I know just enough good rap, hip-hop, to very respectfully disagree, on some points. And I think if I took the implication about the performance values, apart from musical interest, and if I ever went to rap or hip-hop things, I might disagree more.

   I worked out for myself that I needn't feel compelled to take a respectful approach to expressions of culture that I can't in fact countenance. I don't shed crocodile tears for the ancient traditions of cultures that were built on human rights infringements, for example, and permit myself not to have to care--I've got my own culture to examine for whatever lessons that may teach. But I found some good rap by knowing a few people who liked it, and who hate the commercial mainstream probably more than people who just wish it would all go away. The good rap I know is mainly a comedic thing, sits all right with Aristotle (it's characters are worse than his average), Bergman (something mechanical inlaid over the human), and asks profound questions like those lightly touched on in the Re-writing Someone's Song thread.

It's quite possible that people who say they hate rap really do, no matter which stuff they've heard. I leave the door half-open.

   I also believe that aesthetics is still the critical question of art, although the trend has been a shift away from that. It seems to me that a pseudo-scientific empirical approach, a needing to account for art that is widely accepted as important art, is part of the shift. I'm comfortable thinking that some of that Important Art isn't as important as it seems, and that aesthetics, rather than Art History, should be at the center of an art curriculum.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From:
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:28 PM

Agreed, agreed and agreed. I'd want to be very clear that I consider myself almost totally ignorant about the range of music that might be called "rap," and the things that make me reject what I hear on the radio may have to do with why I reject the products of mass culture pretty generally. So I wouldn't want to be understood as passing a general judgment on a variety of music so much as on a wing of the entertainment industry which continually represents itself as democratic, while production and distribution are far more elitist than the snootiest poetry curriculum.

Adam

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:52 PM

I don't have a problem with the rejection of popular mass youth culture of rap and hip hop, because that isn't the "folk" aspect of the music. The Last Poets, whom I mentioned above, Sarah Jones, and many others, have appeared on the HBO "Russell Simmon's Def Poetry" series. Try giving that a shot, and you'll quickly find that it ain't all about the adolescent male "niggas and bitches."

Gil Scott Heron was heavily influenced by Last Poets. Sarah Jones had a hip hop song "Your Revolution" that challenged the niggas and bitches shit banned by the FCC. You can read about it at her website:

http://www.yourrevolutionisbanned.com/

There is a strong connection between the counterculture hip hop movement and the spoken word/poetry slam movement.

My biggest criticism of hip hop/spoken word/poetry slam stuff is it is still monotonous after you listen to it for awhile--it is still a movement dominated by the young, screaming at their elders. Just ask me--I judged for the National Poetry Slam in Minneapolis last August.

Like anything else, there is a good deal of mediocrity and monotony to the sound of the stuff. But when it is good, man it is ASTOUNDING.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: meatrail
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:43 PM

Sarah Jones is one of them I like. And Queen LaTiFah (sp?). Glade turned me on to Arrested Development who she got turned on to after hearing them and then hearing them disrespected by Rush Limbaugh or sum son. Unfortunately Arrested Development broke up. A shame, cause they was good and had some real inspirational lyrics and definitely not women haters. I can't say I know too much about Rap or Hip Hop but I think AR was one of the few groups ever who had men and women members.
Tunney

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:01 PM

The 41-year old friend I mentioned above says he likes Kid Rock, that KR is 'up' in the face of defeat, that there are two CDs of his he particularly likes. Me, I decided that there are LOTS of other forms of music I like; I don't have to like them all.

Strangely enough, I realized that there are two songs from the fairly distant past (50s and 60s) that are basically rap, albeit with a more tentative presentation: Alley Oop and Love Potion Number Nine.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:20 PM

I was away this weekend at the Northeast Regional Folk Alliance conference. I attended a wonderful workshop with Oscar Brand, Gene Shay of WXPN in Philadelphia and Rich Warren of WFMT in Chicago. The topic of the workshop was censorship.   In regards to radio adn television, one of the items I took away from the workshop was how 1 letter of complaint can taint or destroy. Even if the complaint has no validity, the PERCEPTION can become reality.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot of interpreting of SOME elements of rap music, but to read some of the posts here one would think that this music is completely destructive. Most of you (myself included) claim to not listen or like the music, but are also quick to point out what a terrible influence this music is.   In realty you've probably read or watched a news report about a murdered rap star or looked up Eminem's lyrics.   That is snapshot of segment of rap music, it is not the entire genre. It is NOT what MTV is presenting on a daily basis.

Remember how the Weaver's were blacklisted, how it took decades for Woody Guthrie's hometown to RECOGNIZE that he was born there, how people burned Beatles albums and Catcher in the Rye, how the Nazis outlawed music, and how government and commercial interests dictate what we listen to today.   

Do you have to like the music? Of course not, I don't care for it either. Is gangsta rap healthy? No, but the answer is to provide an alternative and educate. I think rap is doing that in it's own house.   Not all rap is destructive, much of it is empowering. It's all well and good to air ones opinion here, but make sure it is thought out and researched and you have a solution, not just a complaint.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:32 PM

Now wait a minute--I have to defend some gangsta rap too. The original gangsta rap wasn't concerned at all with the niggas and bitches thing. It was about police brutality, the politics of extreme poverty, and the grassroots response to the so-called "war on drugs" that came hand in hand with what I, and a good number of other people including Maxine Waters, believe was the deliberate introduction of crack cocaine to the most impoverished sections of urban America by the CIA.

That, to me, is what rap music comes out of--that rage of the crack wars, and the fight for the survival of a completely ostracized American community--the poor and working class inner city black community. Our government declared war on that community in the wake of the 60s and early 70s radicalism of those communities--crack cocaine was introduced by agents outside that community, to destroy it.   THAT is what gangsta rap was all about. And thank god they fought back with that music, otherwise that community may well have been destroyed, the same way many other marginalized poor communities have been destroyed over the centuries.

If you didn't live in an inner city neighborhood that was being destroyed by crack, then you have no idea what that music was about, unless you have made an effort to learn about it. Absolutely no clue.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Firecat
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:36 PM

I appreciate that everyone has their own taste in music, but from what I have read of this particular thread, it seems that all people are doing is saying that rap is rubbish.

Please bear in mind that a lot of people in the 15 to 25 age group (myself included) happen to like this particular form of music and accept it for what it is. Sure, it may occasionally include some controversial topics, but if people criticise rap for that, how do you think they'd deal with some of the folk songs? Just because rap doesn't fit into "acceptable" criteria, people say it's bad. Rap is meant to listened to and enjoyed, not analysed deeply.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:42 PM

From Pacific News Service:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=759

Grindin' -- When Hip Hop Goes Retro, It's Woe in the Ghetto
Kevin Weston, Pacific News Service, Jul 26, 2002

The thump and crack of early 1980s hardcore beats are back on the streets of urban America, writes PNS contributor Kevin Weston. That means desperation and violence are back, too, as a cutthroat drive for survival energizes hip hop even as conditions in the 'hood deteriorate.

OAKLAND, Calif.--That earthquake-like beat in the distance is the sound of hip hop returning to underground roots put down in the '80s. Hip hop was hardcore back then, because hard times were spreading like the flu -- just like now.

Tik crack

Thump/thump

Thump/thump

Boom/Boom/Boom

It's the sound that only hip hop can make. It's different from the usual West Coast/Southern "funk" hop (Lil Wayne, Dre, DJ Quik, Snoop), NY superstar rap (Nas, Jay Z) and flavor-of-the-month hip pop/R&B (Ashanti/Ja Rule, Usher) that booms from car stereos.

That "tik crack" drum track "Grindin''" by Virginia-based rap duo The Clipse comes through my East Oakland three-way intersection four or five times a night, toppling The Big Tymers' "Hood Rich" from first place on my own unofficial street-bump chart.

To "grind" is to work your hustle, whether it be drugs, stocks or real estate. In these tough times, everybody is grindin', with the same cutthroat "earn by all means necessary" attitude of a CEO or gangster.

Listen to Malice, who, with Pusha T, writes The Clipse's raps:

"My grind's 'bout family, never been about fame

From days I wasn't "Abel/able", there was always "Cain/caine"

Four and a half will get you in the game

Anything less is just a goddamn shame

Guess the weight, my watch got blue chips in the face

Glock with two tips, whoever gets in the way

Not to mention the hideaway that rests by the lake

Consider my raw demeanor the icing on the cake

I'm grinding."

Sound familiar? Reaganomics, excessive materialism, high crime, crack, the first round of welfare reform, the scourge of AIDS, high unemployment, urban decay, poor schools, the rise of gangs and rampant police brutality defined the nation's urban landscape in the 1980s.

Now, more than just the attitude in Malice's lyrics or the song's infectious beats recall the '80s. Nationwide, the overall crime rate is up for the first time in a decade. In Oakland, the number of murders threatens to double from last year's total of 48.

Preachers and community leaders held a "peace march" in response to the recent rash of mostly Black-on-Black violence. A similar march was held in 1986, when Oakland was literally "crackin'." At the height of the crack-inspired turf wars in 1992, more than 200 people were murdered here. Most of the killings were drug related, with Black victims and perpetrators.

The bloodletting of the mid-'80s through the early '90s set the stage for the L.A. riots in 1992, the massive jailing program known as the Clinton Crime Bill in 1994 and the redemptive vibes of the Million Man March in 1995. Eventually, rap music smoothed out and became mainstream.

But "Grindin'" has the aural aesthetic of hip hop born in early '80s hardcore beats. The single -- produced by the Asian and Black hit-making duo known as The Neptunes -- is all beat and boom, completely stripped down to the naked soul of ghetto-bred rhythm.

There have been similar sounds in the history of rap. Run DMC's "Sucker M.C.s," Mantronics "Fresh Is the Word," Audio Two's "Top Billin'," Ice T's "6 in Da Mornin'," UTFO's "Roxanne Roxanne" and Easy E's (RIP) "Boyz in Da Hood" -- all were made in the mid- to late 1980s, when hip hop wasn't on commercial radio.

Dr. Dre's classic "The Chronic," released in 1992, and its melodic hit single "Nuthin But a G Thang" was more like an R&B tune, a sing-songy departure from the hardcore. "Nuthin" was one of the first gangsta rap singles to get mainstream radio play. The sound was reconciling and laid back, like an L.A. sunset. The video featured a barbecue and house party -- two activities that were almost impossible to do in the roaring '80s of drive-bys and crack kingpins like Oakland's Felix Mitchell, L.A.'s Rick "Freeway" Ross and New York's Nicky Barnes.

That smooth formula has ruled from the mid-'90s until now.

The "raw demeanor" that Malice raps about is the attitude of desperation and greedy ambition that drove Felix Mitchell and many others to contribute to the destruction of the community while feeding their families -- a bitter irony made possible only in America. I expect the music to get better as times threaten to get worse.

"Grindin'" reaffirms hip hop's musical power. If hip hop becomes a revolutionary cultural force for change again, know that conditions in the 'hoods where the sounds are born are getting more desperate and hectic. That's good for the music, bad for the 'hood.

Weston [e-mail] is editor of Youth Outlook (YO!), a magazine by and about Bay Area youth that can be found at www.youthoutlook.org.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:43 PM

And I LOVE Ja Rule.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Chris Cooke
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:04 PM

I think the number of people passing rap off as music from a culture guilty of enforcing social stereotypes are incredibly short sighted not to see the obvious hipocracy involved in their statements. Since when has a catch all net of generalisation and presumptions based on little knowledge other than a vague recollection of a concept been a constructive basis for judging a genre/race/culture/system of beleifs. You're all a bunch of inbred red necks

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM

You're all

There is no "all". Reading through the thread you actually see a range of different views about this.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From:
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:52 PM

Well, Chris Cooke, I think there's a responsible running acknowledgment of the limits of our experience, and therefore the limits of our claims. That said, yes indeedy, I'll re-affirm what I said about what is called "rap" on mainstream radio, and I do bleeve I've heard enough and more. Very secure in my judgment of it. It's mass culture crap, like pretty nearly everything else on mainstream radio, except the rest of it doesn't play the race card or claim to be folk, and I'm hostile to those claims when I find them to be dishonest, because they attempt an end-run around criticism. I think there's a very serious distinction to be made between countering criticism and declaring something off-limits to criticism.

I have no argument with the hostility to mass culture, white-culture, the enunciation of young blacks' experience in the roots of rap, and in music which I haven't heard and therefore don't take it on myself to judge. But the mall-hip crowd, the eight-mile crowd (I spent my teen years crusing Eight Mile)? Puh-leeeze. Those are different claims.

Somebody else can take the trolled bait about the CIA inventing crack.

Adam

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:46 PM

To the guest who defended gangsta rap (I wish you would use your name!), you are right.. I didn't mean to suggest that ALL gangsta rap is harmful. That goes against the point I was trying to make. Wrong choice of words on my part. You very eloquently described why rap is important.   It is not my choice of music that I like to listen to, but it has a very important role.

Ron

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:53 PM

This is an excerpt from "Newswatch" a newsletter from the Annenberg School of Communications, at UPenn:

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/jsexton/NewsWatch/issue9.htm

"Reading between the lies"

Volume 1, Issue 9

August 4, 1997



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Rewards of Responsible Journalism

In August of 1996, the San Jose Mercury News printed the infamous "CIA-contra-crack" series "Dark Alliance" by reporter Gary Webb. The story documented links between crack cocaine dealers in Los Angeles and San Francisco, drug smugglers, CIA agents/contacts and the CIA-backed terrorist army in Nicaragua. The story gained national attention, especially in African-American neighborhoods which had been destroyed by the effects of crack addiction, drug dealing, drug-related crime, and gang violence (the US mainstream media tended to report these concerned African-Americans as paranoid conspiracy theorists).

This story is not new. The contra war began in 1981-2. Reporters Robert Parry and Brian Barger found that some contra troops were involved with shipments of cocaine sent to the United States through Costa Rica back in 1985. The Associated Press wire service refused to run the story. Interestingly, the story was accidentally sent out to some foreign AP offices, and then printed in most Spanish-speaking countries in the Western hemisphere. But word still did not get out to the audience in the United States.

Gary Webb's articles secured more attention than any other article in the Mercury News' history. One would think that this would make him a hero, and that he would be treated as such by his paper, and the journalistic community as a whole. Not so.

Despite thorough research, the "Dark Alliance" was attacked by most mainstream newspapers for its wild claims (mainstream news could hardly agree however, as they had been suppressing this story for years. To praise Webb would be to admit either incompetence or complicity. In some circles the CIA-crack connection has been common knowledge. This humble editor has know for at least 6 years); since these criticisms, Webb has found even more evidence and written four additional, highly detailed stories that he submitted to his editors several months ago. However, Mercury News editor Jerry Ceppos claims that Webb had merely turned in "notes," not complete articles (Webb denies this). And just recently, Ceppos printed an editorial apologizing for not being as responsible as they should have been regarding the "Dark Alliance" series. Ceppos' apology makes very few concrete concessions, but to the casual observer, it would seem to be a retraction.

But perhaps these are just efforts to fend off external attacks. Surely Webb has received internal support, a raise, promotion pat on the back? Hardly. Webb has been transferred to the Mercury News suburban bureau in Cupertino, California,150 miles away from his home, wife, and children. Webb says, "This is just harassment. This isn't the first time that a reporter went after the CIA and lost his job over it." These actions by the Mercury News are not only a punishment to Webb, but serve as an extremely potent warning to other journalists: "Avoid real controversy or you're out of a job."

Sources: EXTRA!, San Jose Mercury News, The Progressive, Fooling America by Robert Parry

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,I hate rap music
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:18 PM

How can anyone call Rap Music 'Music' all it is crap, with a capital C.
It's a idiot who is chanting with a drum beat playing behind them, and being offenceive, and I have never funny rap record, exepct when a Scottish Comden called Johnny Beattie did one called the Glasgow Rap.
but a part from that Rap music is mostly shite.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 09:20 PM

Maybe it is rap spelling that throws you off.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,The Duck of the Irish
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

I remember the first time I heard rap long ago. It was kind of interesting, but i kept hearing it again, and again. I can't figure out why so many people love so many renditions of the exact same tune.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:45 PM

Duck of the Irish, I'm absolutely with you on that one. The monotony and tyranny of the beat is what drives me away from embracing the genre wholeheartedly, despite what I consider to be the importance and sometime high quality of the lyrics. There are very interesting things being done with the language of rap and hip hop--fascinating things that are highly original. But the beat really drags down too much of it for me personally. I can love Ja Rule, because he has that R & B melody thing he is doing with the beat, but then lyrically, I don't think his stuff is as strong as Dre, or NWA, or some of the hardcore stuff.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM

I don't have anything to add to this, but Adam, who are you, what do you teach? I keep noticing your posts and imagine you write?

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: wilco
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:27 PM

If the request were made for some very offensive, adolescent pop lyrics came from any other source, they would have generated no interest. The politically correct position is to be hyper-sensitive about anything that has any "black" context. Rap is adolescent, hormone-driven drivel.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM

This discussion has nothing to do with "black" content - it is simply about art, music and free speech.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: poetlady
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:19 PM

I think rap can sound odd, disturbingly so, when one is not used to it. Growing up I heard rap music all the time. I did not like it at all, and will admit to having had a very closed-minded view of it. Just recently, I have listened to it again, and caught myself actually liking it. It mayn't be the most intelligent music, but it sure beats the largest portion of pop, and some of it is actually, as Fred Miller said, quite amusing (intentionally amusing). However, maybe I'm just getting nostalgic about ugly music because it reminds me of my childhood.

I do think age has a bit to do with it. I think people usually end up liking what they're used to, and unless you're younger you probably haven't heard much rap.

I, myself, used to hate folk music, but I had a teacher who played it quietly at the back of the room all the time, and before long I started liking it. It was like learning to drink coffee. Most people hate it when they first drink it, but try it a few times, and you don't mind it. Drink it a few times more and you are a scary caffeine addict who has to have their latte to keep from killing people.

Because people usually like what they're used to, ethnicity is also a factor. I can see why white people from predominately white areas might find the music foreign and unpleasant sounding, but I grew up in a place where they called me "white girl," so that doesn't apply to me. Having moved to an area where there are few African-Americans, I'd have to say that even the young people here don't tend to like rap.

I think it just boils down to what we are used to and what we can relate to. (Of course, you can always try to expand your horizons and like new things. :) )

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From:
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:42 PM

I'm at Truman State University, a small public liberal arts college in NE Missouri, generally well thought-of. I teach language and literature of the middle ages, cover some linguistics, pinch-hit in German (picked it up when a pretty Austrian girl said she'd have me. We had to talk SOMETIME.). To my chagrin, some scribbled poetry and fiction has won more attention than my scholarship (hard fight with a short stick) so they've got me teaching that, too. My specialty in medieval was comparative oral tradition (which leads actually out of English and into anthropologically-oriented folklore). I'm webmaster and currently prez of the Missouri Folklore Society -- will you put up with a plug? http://www2.truman.edu/~adavis/mfs.html.

So there's my story, such as it is. I'm very interested in all things folk, and glad to be tolerated on the Mudcat, though my musical ability/knowledge is far behind my enthusiasm/interest (I like to think I make a contribution by promoting folk music events in my area). For those who live in or around the state that (I think) borders more states than any other, the homepage maintains a calendar of events (plug, plug).

Thanks for asking. I love this place and everybody in it.

Adam

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 08:01 PM

I reemeber my nephew who lives in Australia, many years ago put on a rap LP, (Rember them) and I was listening to it, and after a while I thought to myself that's a long song, so I got up and I found that the 'rap singer' had really sang four songs.
So how can anyone say that's folk music.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM

Adam, Thanks for telling. Figures, you write a mean post, my friend. My father taught German and was a poet, at Western KY U.

Guest above, I once mistook half a dozen songs by different "alternative" bands for a record by one pretty good band with a narrow stylistic range. Also, I believe all Dickenson's poems can be sung to The Yellow Rose of Texas. Variety is where you find it, I guess.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:02 PM

Shame it's not hum-able. On the other hand, no danger of the tune getting stuck in your head.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: TIA
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:23 PM

Clinton Hammond: on 14 Nov, 02 at 1:58, you quoted me (GUEST TIM) as if to dispute me, but then made my point (albeit much less subtley). Read me again, I totally agree with you.

Tim

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:28 PM

It's crap.

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: meatrail
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:11 PM

As a far as monotonous music goes, I've had folks come up and say to me that all bluegrass sounds alike after listening a while, not something I ever noticed though.

I read somewhere that the first Europeans to visit Africa couldn't appreciate the multicomplexity of the African rhythms and so thought it was just one big cacaphony. And olde English, Irish, and Scottish folksongs do rely on a mostly unvarying tune from verse to verse - letting the changing words tell the tale, convey the emotion, whatever. Pretty much like contemporary country music does. Which according to what I've read and heard first-hand from other musicians, is why country music as well as Brit folksongs is considered boring by many blacks - who are used to more of a mosaic of music and more repetition of words to tell the tale, convey the emotion, etc. as in blues and rhythm & blues.

I really enjoy thinking about your alls articulate discussions on this thread. A lotta time I don't express my views exactly like I think 'em - but looking over what I just writ, it may be that black Rap musicians are experimenting with "white" music - more words and less tunes.

Tunney

Subject: RE: Rap Music
From: dwditty
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:25 PM

Oscar Brown,Jr. wrote and performed a rap song (although it wasn't called rap then) called Man Earnest Boy on his circa 1962 release, Tells It Like It is. It is one more reason I harken back to Zappa's quote, "You know, people, I'm not black, but there's a whole lotta times I wish I could say I wasn't white."