BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders

Subject: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST,Jeff J.
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:12 PM

Lengthy, non-music, unattributed copy-and paste article deleted. Click to read this article.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:39 PM

I take it that is an uncredited article lifted from somewhere.

All atrocities are counter-atricities, all reprisals are counter reprisals. All simple isolated truths are half truths, torn from their context.

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:51 PM

It has never been about the 1967 territories. From the maps on its walls to the textbooks in its schools to the broadcasts on its airwaves, the Palestinian Authority, like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, has always made clear that it craves much more. Arafat's war is not for a state in which Arabs can live beside their Jewish neighbors. It is for their Jewish neighbors' state. For all of it -- including Kibbutz Metzer

GUEST, Jeff J

I guess the only thing left for Israel to do now, Mr. J., is to kill all of the Palestinians. And then, of course, they'll have to kill all Arabs and Muslims, too. Pity.

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

Q: Are you Jewish?

Q: Are you pro-Israeli?

Q: Are you anti-Arab?

As I understood it, Mudcat is supposed to be a site about Folk Music, with incidental discussions about whatever you feel like. Whatever you feel like, as I understood it, didn't include blatantly biased propaganda.

Q: How many Israelis have died in the last 5 years as a result of Arab 'terrorism'?

Q: How many Palestinians have died in the last 5 years as a result of the decisions & policies of Israeli 'defence' & governmental organisations?

Betcha which figure comes out higher...

The Palestinian extremists are ****ing idiots. The Israeli extremists are also ****ing idiots. Unfortunately it's the Israeli extremists that have access to the Heavy Weaponry. I suspect that most of the Middle East is wishing that gene technology could come up with a 'Politician Bomb' -

"Kills all extremists, leaves ordinary people standing"

All the ordinary people, Palestinian or Israeli, want is to be allowed to get on with their lives in peace.

Pathetic 'reports' like this help neither side. Think about it.

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:34 PM

BS:

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM

Atricities are atrocious. Those who commit them are atrociously stupid.

They are embedded in the deepest, most awful kind of human stupidness.

This stupidness is not unilateral, in either this conflict or any of the other chronic arguments that keep the population curve down in various areas. The stupidity that earmarks this fight and s many others is more like a groundwater reserve which feeds too springs. How absurd for the two springs to argue about who has thebetter nature, or to tryto un-do each other!!

No-one who is passiionately involved in a "side" in this --or similar-- matter is about to recognize that the lack of common respect , the commitment to common harm, stems directly from commonly held stupidity, but that's where the truth lies.

A
A

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 08:55 PM

Yes, atrocities are atrocites......but I do indeed get all this from other news sources......explain me why it all has to be posted here in this forum??????

Subject: RE: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: DougR
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:32 PM

Because, Sorcha, somebody wanted to post it!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:29 PM

Yeah, but it really bugs me that I can't find the article that "Jeff" cut-and-pasted. I'm sure Jeffy doesn't had the ability to think on his own, so it must be a cut-and-paste. If somebody knows, send me a link to the source by personal message, so I can replace Jeffy's plagiarism with a link.
I have to admit, though, that there is some good information in the article. There are two sides to this issue - unfortunately, both of them are right and yet there seems to be no way to bring them to reconciliation. If you've been to Israel, you can see that there are no good guys and no bad guys in this struggle - all the parties involved are victims of a horrible injustice inflicted on both sides by the course of history.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM

The course of history is not an inflictor. The course of history is just a score sheet of inflictions. Inflictions are he screaming protest of the native heart against its own stupidity. They are perpetrated by individuals who cannot see their way out of the forces which they carry with them. In other words they (inflictions through history) are psychodramas, acted out by psychos.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM

Well, maybe, Amos - or maybe it would be proper to blame the mess where the blame belongs - on the English and other Europeans, on the Americans, and on the Ottoman Turks. The struggle goes back way beyond the lifetime of the living - but the injustices of past generations linger on. We're all at fault, and so are our ancestors.
It will take real heroism and real generosity to put an end to all this bloodshed. Everybody's right in this quarrel - but nobody has shown much generosity or heroism.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:55 AM

With so many words for PEACE you'd have thought we could find one that worked.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:45 AM

Israel seizes suspect in kibbutz shooting


By Greg Myre, Associated Press, 11/15/2002

JERUSALEM - Israeli troops tracked down the suspected ringleader of a deadly Palestinian shooting rampage at an Israeli kibbutz, forcing him to surrender yesterday in the West Bank town of Tulkarem.

In a separate army action in the Gaza Strip, Israeli forces carried out an early morning raid in Gaza City - a congested place that ground troops rarely approach - and detained four Palestinian brothers suspected of making mortars.

The actions are part of a recent pattern in which the military sends tanks, armored personnel carriers, and troops into Palestinian cities and towns on nighttime missions to seize militants.

In Tulkarem, soldiers surrounded the house where the kibbutz attack suspect, Mohammed Naefe, was hiding. He walked out with his hands up, stripped to his underwear to ensure he wasn't carrying explosives. An Israeli human rights group helped arrange the surrender of Naefe and two alleged accomplices. The army then demolished the hideout as part of its policy of destroying the homes of militants in an attempt to deter Palestinians from carrying out attacks on Israelis.

Israel says Naefe planned the attack Sunday on Kibbutz Metzer, a communal farm. Five people were killed, including a mother and her two young sons. The suspected gunman, identified as Sirhan Sirhan, 19, remains at large.

The attack, carried out by the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, has embarrassed Yasser Arafat. The militia is linked to the Palestinian leader's Fatah movement, and the shooting came at a time when Fatah was trying to persuade the Islamic militant group Hamas to halt suicide bombings in Israel.

Arafat and Fatah denounced the shooting, saying it was carried out by rogue elements beyond their control, and have called for an end to attacks against Israeli civilians. At talks this week in Cairo, Fatah asked Hamas to suspend suicide bombings for three months. Hamas said it needed time to consider the proposal.

This story ran on page A9 of the Boston Globe on 11/15/2002.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST,Jeff J.
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:06 AM

Joey Offer writes:

"Yeah, but it really bugs me that I can't find the article that "Jeff" cut-and-pasted. I'm sure Jeffy doesn't had the ability to think
on his own, so it must be a cut-and-paste. If somebody knows, send me a link to the source by personal message, so I can replace Jeffy's plagiarism with a link.
I have to admit, though, that there is some good information in the article."

Joey,

Just because someone frequents Mudcat, it does not mean they don't have the ability to think on their own. All of the information that I pulled together for my article was drawn from published news sources. I am a journalism student at Carleton University in Ottawa and I wrote the piece as a weekly assignment for my class on column writing.

Joey Offer went on to say, "there are no good guys and no bad guys in this struggle."

No Joey, you're wrong. The killer who entered the kibbutz and murdered five people, including a mother and two small children in their home at bedtime, is a "bad guy." So too are those responsible for all terrorist attacks on civilians.

What upsets me so much about this story is that the kibbutzniks of Metzer are from the segment of Israeli society that most wants to make peace with the Palestinians. Just as the assassination of Itzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist was an attack on the notion of peace, so too are such attacks by Palestinian terrorists.

And I know that your name is "Joe," not "Joey." I appended the "y" to your name because you did it to mine in your sarcastic effort to make me look stupid.

---

OK, Jeffy, or Mikey, or whatever your name is. But if you really were a journalism student, you'd know that proper journalists are expected to give attribution to their sources. I deleted your article because it does not conform with Mudcat posting policy. If it comes from another source and is not your own work, it must be attributed. If it has nothing to do with music, post a summary in your own words, plus a link to where we can find it at its original source.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:32 AM

If you're a journalism student, Jeff, you need to start doing a much better job of researching your information. For instance, this paragraph:

It is one of the abiding myths of the Arab-Israel conflict that a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza is the key to peace. But if that were true, peace would have broken out in 2000, when former Prime Minster Ehud Barak proposed a sovereign Palestinian state comprising all of Gaza, virtually all of the West Bank, and half of Jerusalem. Arafat responded to Barak's offer by launching a new war of terrorism and bloodshed.

...is entirely devoid of facts, and this bit of propagandist journalism is one of the biggest reasons that peace isn't possible in the middle east at this time. Were it not for this fantastic lie promulgated by the Israeli and US governments, I believe that more Israelis and Americans would be working harder to pressure the Israeli government to put a halt to its blatant robbery of the Palestinian people. A blatant theft of land, water, and human rights. Until the Israeli government puts a halt to these things, there will be no peace in the middle east. When it does, there will be peace in the middle east.

You, my friend, are not helping anyone by spreading these lies.

If you want more facts with which to prepare future papers on this subject, become a member and send me a Personal Message. I can supply you with more than ample documentation from the most credible sources (mostly Israeli Jews).

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM

Jeff, don't bother with CarolC's "facts". Her commentaries on the Middle East are well known here for their bias.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:12 PM

Joe Offer's selection of villains for all the problems in this area are unbelievably selective. So is the indignation shown by most posters on these topics. It's refreshing, but rare, to find messages that actually seem to disike nasty things, without qualfying it by saying *oh but they did it first"..

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:02 PM

Her (CarolC's) commentaries on the Middle East are well known here...

GUEST, you flatter me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM

Well, CarolC, you are such a cute litte shiksa.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:16 PM

Jeff J. As a veteran of this forum let me be the one to offer you some advice. Never try to confuse these people with facts, their minds are made up; and we are just hated "Guests" not worthy of civilised treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 02:23 PM

12 more Jews ambushed and eliminated by Palestinian heroes yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 04:06 PM

The good people of kibbutz Metzer, are , in the main, idealists and pacifists.
They did not settle on Arab lands when they came to Israel from Argentina( back in 1953)- they kept up close relationships with the neighboring Arab village of Meisar. They share the same water source- drew water from the same well, before it became a mains supply. They frequently visit each others houses- share in each others celebrations,griefs, joys and tragedies. The Arabs of Meisar taught the Jews of Metzer rudimentary agriculture, back then, and in turn the Jews of Metzer shared new technologies with the Arabs of Meisar, as they acquired it.
The Arabs of Meisar heve spent this last week since the atrocity, mourning with the Jews of Meisar.
The vicious and vile terrorists who brutally slaughtered a mother and her 4& 5 year old children in their beds- must have known of the character of Kibbutz Metzer. They were trying to cut down the growth of seeds of peace.
I know the people of Metzer well, the "Metzer Group" teaches Tai Chi, reiki, holistic healing and meditation at our local folk festival- Jacob's Ladder.
I don't believe that the terrorists will change the will of the people of Metzer and of Meisar- to live side by side in peace.
Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:36 PM

Greg Stephens, you forgot to state who are the villains of the Middle East Crisis, if not the forces of history. I have to stand by my belief that those most responsible were absent superpowers who didn't understand the impact of their actions - the English, the Americans, and the Ottoman Turks. In many ways, these nations had a benevolent attitude, but they meddled in a situation they didn't understand.
Of course, we also must put a lot of blame on the Germans and their supporters in Europe who caused the Holocaust; and upon the Russians and others who were responsible for the pogroms of Eastern Europe.
Most of the immediate blame lies on the shoulders of terrorists and extremists on both sides - but we all must share responsibility for the ultimate causes. And we all have a responsibility to be generous and heroic in coming to a solution to the problem.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:46 PM

Joe i called you selective because you specifically picked out the English, Americans and Ottoman Turks as the main cuprits of the Israel/Palestine problem. I call that selective because I would feel a comprehensive list would have included the Jews(Promised Land era), he Romans, the Islamic Arabs at the time they expanded into the area.And a few more, but that will do for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Kibbutz terrorist murders
From: Troll
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 05:29 AM

Lets just get rid of all the people worldwide. Bingo! No more war, the planet could heal itself and all would be sweetness and light.
Since we are all really to blame, who want's to take the lead and set the example.
No one?
Then we are going to have to learn to work together and that starts with showing each other respect.


troll