Definition of Musical Tradition

Subject: Definition of Musical Tradition
From:
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:32 AM

Greetings,
    I would like to please ask some assistance. I am a graduate student in history doing research in an area that includes ethnomusicological, ethnographic, and sociological aspects. Is anyone aware of an ethnomusicological definition of musical tradition, the author who coined the definition, and the work in which it was published? Is anyone further aware of a definition solely for tradition, the author, and work in which it was published? If you have such information please respond to this post or e-mail me.
    Thank you very much,
    Mike Nicholsen

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:39 AM

Err no.

There are many but I doubt if the author would claim it to be difinitive and if they did, one here would agree with it anyway.

For then we would have nothing to argue about. *Smiles* and good luck.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 04:22 AM

As a graduate student in history - with an emphasis in ethnomusicology - YOU are probably more qualified than the rest of us wankers to answer that question yourself.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 05:30 AM

Mike

You might try your question on the Ballad-L listserver. While it is basically a forum for ballad scholars, many of the participants are academics with a wide range of experience in
related areas. Click here for details.

Regards

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 06:26 AM

Maybe you should ask John Stock, author of an article about Ethnomusicology. There you'll find his e-mail address.
Attention: the URL of his homepage is given there with an error, correct form is: http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/academic/I-M/mus/staff/js/JShomepage.html

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 07:36 AM

Nice to know that universities are having trouble with this kind of stuff. And particularly gratifying that some one is doing some useful work, instead of Lady Di Studies or Golf Course Management.
   But I tend to agree with GUEST above...the academic ethnomusicologists should be using the full weight of their training to telling us the answers to these interesting questions, not asking us.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Pied Piper
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:12 AM

Hi Mike welcome to the ship of fools
Good luck with the project I think you are ideally placed to move towards a more accurate re-definition of tradition in relation to modern western "trad" musicians like myself.
If you become a member of Mudcat (and it don't cost nawt) you could PM (personal message) if I can help I will.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:08 PM

Is this a cunning way of asking "What is Folk?" ?

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:28 AM

Threads on the meaning of folk

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST,Mike Nicholsen
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:13 AM

Greetings again,
    Thank you all very much for your responses. Since one of the posts on this thread argued that I should be able to come up with this myself, I am in the process of compiling a definition of traditional music as it relates to Irish traditional music, a focal point of my research. As I am concerned with primarily instrumental music as opposed to vocal song, hairs must be split a bit more finer than in a discussion of the broader designation of folk music, but there is of course a close relationship. I would like to share my preliminary findings.
    At present, I am using as a basis for my definition the following statement from the International Folk Music Council in 1954:
    "Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has       been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are (i) continuity which links the
present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the individual or the group; (iii)selection by the community, which determine the form or forms in which the music survives." (My apologies as I am unable to block this appropriately).
      I have added that to create a working definition, it should be said that music passed from generation to generation, altered and adapted by subsequent generations, rather than a static antiquarian approach are part of a tradition. Opinions will of course differ. A sense of collective ownership by the practicing community, illustrated by the fact that composers are largely unknown or anonymous, is another component. Traditions should be old, but age is relative. To an American, a century is perhaps a long time. To citizens of other, older nations, it is a drop in the bucket. Thus, a tradition should be "old" according to the standards of its practicing community.
    That's the start of it. I would like this definition to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive, and will continue to alter and add until my research is concluded. Thank you all again for your responses.
    -Mike Nicholsen

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Declan
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:15 AM

Mike,

I suppose its important to some people to come up with these sort of definitions, so good luck with your work. Personally I'd rather just play and listen to the music.

I presume if your invoved in this that you know about the Irish Traditional Music Archive (www.itma.ie) and Comhaltas Ceoiltoiri Eireann (www.comhaltas.com), who will probably have some working definition of what they consider constitutes Irish Traditional Music on their websites.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:09 AM

Mike

As it happens, I use that "folk music" definition as the starting point for some introductory seminars on Irish Music which I give to foreign students at the college where I teach (other things!). Its a good starting point.

Regards

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 10:06 AM

Mike-

I'm interested to know at what point (how many years) music enters the tradition, or becomes traditional? What is the defintion of this?

Just your opinion,

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: nutty
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM

Mike there are numerous ways to find this info.
I just put 'ethnomusic' in the GOOGLE search engine and came up with a very wide range of articles on the subject ...... for example

Ethnomusic

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 11:10 PM

Mike, here's an on-line resource for you: Musical Traditions. You might want to check out this article, Ethnomusicology, Its Use to Us and others on the site. (There's even a whole book on the British folk revival.)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST,Mike Nicholsen
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:53 AM

Richie,
    I argue that a music becomes a tradition once it has passed from the generation of inception to the second generation. Naysayers believe that a tradition must be "old," but age is relative. Just when is a tradition old enough to be a tradition to make such naysayers happy? I say within two generations.
    This definition of tradition business is actually a tangent within my research, as I need to placate someone who has a great deal of power over my research. I certainly sympathize with Declan's post, that he would prefer to listen, play, and enjoy, but I have forsaken that luxury.
    Thanks to everyone for continued responses, and I'll keep checking in.
      -Mike

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:08 AM

Mike,

To me a song or ballad becomes part of the tradition or traditional when it is transmitted from one source to another and in that process is changed.

I don't think of time (as in a generation) as being the impostant aspect but the more a song or ballad is transmitted the more change.

As an example, if we passed the lyrics of a song around a table of people in circle a tradition of that song would exsist without much passage of time.

What do you think?

-Richie

Subject: A quibble: Oral vs. Non-oral
From: Haruo
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:18 AM

Mike, the definition you cited supra includes the wording "Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission." It seems to me that this (if construed as delimiting the term) unnecessarily excludes nonvocal musical expression (say, fiddling or drumming) if it has no oral component.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 01:29 AM

A song enters the tradition at its point of dissemination.

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM

I don't see a "music tradition" as being the same as "traditional music." It seems although you introduce a question about the former, most of your writing is on the latter. I may be the only person who sees these two things as being different.

Traditional music is music which has been passed on from generation to generation, and I DO believe time is a factor.
Within the tradition, everyone from one generation will be familiar the song or tune. If music must be passed from generation to generation as in from father to son to be traditional, then prison work songs, military 'jodies' or cadences, sea shanties and bawdy songs probably wouldn't be considered traditional. So the word "generation" may have to become more flexible or be tossed out altogether. I have no idea how many people a song has to be passed to or how long this process should take. It's a good thing it's not my job to put the little "genuine traditional" stickers on the right music!

A music tradition is about people making music. It's the when/where/what/who of the activity. You can have new, non-traditional music being done as part of this activity. As a result, the music may be passed on and become traditional. You can have traditional music performed outside of the tradition from which it comes. I supposed it's still part of its original tradition, but not part of any tradition if it's separated from the when/where/who.

Disclaimer: I've been within a few feet of experts, but I doubt I absorbed very much real knowledge from these experiences. I have lots of opinions though.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: mooman
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:31 AM

I think Mike is right to consult us here at Mudcat as controversy has raged since time immoral in this forum on this definition. Any good academic will try to collect and assess as wide a range of interpretations as possible and what better place!

P.S. I'm afraid I wouldn't stick my neck out with a suggested definition!

mooman

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM

Hey I knew that I was right to play Buddy Holly songs in folk clubs. Since it is nearly 44 years since he produced anything new his songs certainly meet the one generation criterion and are not far off the two generations.

Roger

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Declan
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:50 AM

Any definition of this type will run into trouble sooner or later. I would view Irish Traditional Music as a style of music and would argue that even a newly composed piece of music written in that style could be described as a piece of Irish tradional music. It is the music as a body that is traditional, not necessarily an individual song or tune.

The issue of whether something is regarded as 'traditional' for copyright purposes is a different thing. Obviously where a composer is known and still living they should be given credit for their work.

It can't be just a generational thing. If a grandfather composes a piece of music today and plays it for his grandchild, it has been handed down two generations in a single instant.

There was a young Scottish singer on a thread here a while back who was admonished by an adjudicator in a competition for singing a song in a competition for traditional songs, because the adjudicator knew the author of the song. In this case as far as I can remember the singer was in her teens and the judge was elderly, so what was traditional for her was contemporary for the judge (who was at least 2 generations older).

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Mikey(Inactive)
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:06 AM

Hello everyone,
    I didn't think this little question would generate so much discussion, but I must say I am gratified and once again must reiterate my thanks. I would like to respond to a few individual posts, but first a general comment. I would like to qualify my use of the term "generation." By that I simply meant from one person to another, not necessarily familial in the usual sense. For example, I got the tune "Munster Bacon" phrase by phrase from my fiddle teacher, who received it from his teacher the same way, hence there are three "generations" of fiddlers learning and altering, or perhaps personalizing, the tune. So I'm a little loosey-goosey with the term generation.
    This brings up Haruo's question about oral transmission. To continue the "Munster Bacon" example, my teacher played each phrase until I could adequately reproduce it. This constitutes oral, or maybe more accurately, aural transmission for instrumental music as opposed to vocal song. A little loosey-goosey once again but there it is.
    I agree with Declan's point that newly composed music within the style of Irish traditional music becomes part of the tradition. Otherwise, people wouldn't play Liz Carroll tunes at sessions with no knowledge that she composed it.
    Finally, to respond to Mooman's post that academics should investigate a wide range of opinions and this is a good place to do it, I agree wholeheartedly, though I would characterize myself as a curious student rather than an academic. Thanks again everyone. I'll keep reading posts.
    Many thanks,
    Mike

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:47 AM

I've been thinking about this folk/traditional thing lately, and had even intended to start a thread--

A couple things have occurred to me--

1) Classical music forms fill most definitions of "traditional" music better than many of the types of music lumped together as "folk" because the have a formal teacher/student hierarchy, and a formal pedagogy that was created to assure that the music would pass, intact, from one generation to the next--

2)In spite of this semantic problem, we definitely don't mean classical music when we say folk or traditional--we tend to mean music that is passed either among people in a particular group or from one generation to another without either a formal pedagogy or formal student/teacher hierarchy--

3)Traditional and folk music stop being what they are when they are studied and taught through formal institutions, such as colleges, and they also stop being what they are when they start being distributed businesses(also known as formal institutions) who also then tend to remake them to broaden their sales appeal--

4)Music that comes from formal institutions, such as commercial music or classical music, regularly gets assimilated into the folk culture, who remake it to suit their own needs and tastes--

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:11 PM

How about changing the word "oral" to "aural"? Would this have a significance in establishing a link between "singing" and "instrumental" tradition which seems to me to be missing of late, particularly with the arguments about what should be sung/played in sessions, i.e., whether songs and tunes are mutually incompatable in a given session. Or have I opened another can of worms!?

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:53 PM

Contemporary music gatherings are cultures of their own, the music may be traditional(or it may not) but the repertoire, playing styles, and of course, the rules of the session are the product of current place and time--

I played in a band for international folkdancing for a number of years, and it struck me that, despite the claims of preserving traditional cultures, the juxtaposition of material would never have occurred in nature--where else would you here "Cotton-Eyed Joe" in a set with "Erev Ba", "Miserlou", a Hambo, "Tri Martolod", and a Finnish dance where people imitate seals-

The other thing is that a folkdancer's favorite Serbian dances may have nothing to do with a Serbian's favorite Serbian dances--

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:41 PM

I rather liked Mooman's since time "immoral." Does this argument go back to Adam and Eve and their fiddling around nekkid?

Should American traditional music ("to an American a century is perhaps a long time") be separated from older musical traditions? Only in part, since American music is an amalgam of several older strains and what has developed from the intermingling of those strains.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Burke
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:54 PM

I have read the initial post in the thread several times & several of the original inquirers responses. I'm still confused about what term you are even trying to find a definion of.

I strongly recommend that you read the Gove Music article on Ethnomusicology as a beginning for your context & theory then work from the bibliography to get at those sources you were asking for. Your institution's library will own this & may have an online subscription.

If you're on your campus this link may be all you need. Otherwise try whatever way you get access to the online indexes for possible proxy access.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Burke
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:10 PM

The following covers the use of both terms Folk and Traditional Music. The names mentioned should give a start.

Folk music
1. Definitions and scope.
Volkslied ('folksong') as a term was coined by the German cultural philospher, theologian and writer Johann Gottfried Herder (1744–1803) and established by his publication 'Stimmen der Völker in Liedern', Volkslieder (1778–9). Among its characteristics, he posited the necessity of its production by 'communal composition' and an aesthetic of 'dignity'. German scholars have extensively debated the ontological status of the concept, its characteristics and delimitations, and the effectiveness of its replacement by the term 'traditional' (see Germany, §II).

From the late 19th century onwards, the concept became increasingly crucial to the debates on nationalism. Those seeking to identify or create their own national musics, ranging from individual composers and collectors to totalitarian régimes, used 'folk' as a synonym for 'nation', interpreting the concept to fit their needs (see below, §5). Across Europe, the 'folk' were intially identified as peasants and rural artisans. The Merrie England movement and the Irish and Scottish Gaelic Revivals of the 1880s were fuelled by notions of a lost 'golden age' of innocence symbolized by the music of the 'peasantry' and song airs, song texts and dance tunes of rural working people were idealised in contrast to the artiness of élite society or vulgar products of the industrial poor. Although preoccupied with the collection and classification of rural music, the Hungarian composer, pianist and collector Béla Bartók included urban popular forms within the rubric of 'folk music'. For the English folksong collector Cecil Sharp and for others in the first British Folk Music Revival, folk music was perceived as only produced by artisan and labouring rural people. Sharp argued that continuity, variation and selection were the three vital components of folksongs and that anonymous composition and oral transmission were defining elements (1907) (see Ethnomusicology, §II, 2(iv) and England, §II). Broadside ballads did not fit happily into this definition since they were published and sold in urban contexts for popular consumption. They were, however, embraced as 'folk music' by the folk music revivals of both North America and Britain.

The English Folk Dance and Song Society was formed in 1932 by the amalgamation of the Folk-Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society (the latter founded by Sharp in 1911). The International Folk Music Council (IFMC), founded in 1947, attempted a definition of 'folk music' at its conference in São Paolo (1955) that incorporated Sharp's three criteria and the notions of 'tradition' and 'oral transmission'. Folk music was 'the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission'. The concept embraced only music that had evolved within a community uninfluenced by 'popular' and 'art' music. The IFMC dispensed with Sharp's ideas about anonymous composition, rather folk music might originate with an individual composer but must have been absorbed subsequently into the unwritten living tradition of a community. The definition did not cover composed popular music that had 'been taken over ready-made by a community' and remained unchanged as it was the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gave it its 'folk' character.

Although at the time Sharp had defined 'folk music', he used it as coterminous with 'traditional music', the IFMC changed its name in 1981 to the International Council for Traditional Music (ICTM) in response to concerns about the concept 'folk'. The identification of 'folksong' and 'folkdance' (in Ireland 'Irish song' or 'Irish dance') by collectors of the early years of the century was reassessed in the later years of the 20th century, noting that the terms promoted often heavily edited and reconstructed items, through music publishers, live concert performance and state education systems (e.g. Harker, 1985). From the 1960s onwards, North American increasingly extended the meaning of 'folk music' to include the musics of ethnic and racial communities.

CAROLE PEGG: 'Folk music', The New Grove Dictionary of Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 22 Nov. 2002),
© Macmillan Publishers Ltd, 2001-2002

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:24 PM

Mike-

Is a definition of musical tradition, the same thing as as definition of traditional music? Exactly how is traditional music different than popular music? How long does it take for music to become traditional?

Burke- Do you have a definition of "musical tradition" that you can offer?

I don't think anyone has answered Mike's original question which was: Who is the author who coined the definition of "musical tradition," and what is the work in which it was published?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:30 PM

There are some helpful definitions and references in the entry that Burke has so kindly posted--you also get a real sense of how the definiitions have changed over time, and how there have always been confilicting definitions--mostly likely, this is why the question never is satisfactorily answered--

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From:
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:16 PM

Defining tradition (or folk, or folk music, or folklore) is hopeless, but not pointless. That is, you never get to a consensus definition, but we discover all kinds of interesting things along the way that probably wouldn't have been brought forward by any other means (that would be my defense of all the BS threads that understandably annoy some whose core interest is music, somewhat strictly defined).

On a subject very nearly related to the question at hand, the most broadly accepted definition of folklore at present is Alan Dundes', which basically says it's any cultural product shared by a folk, in turn defined as two or more people. It has the virtue of maximum inclusiveness, but fails the test of a good definition, excluding what doesn't belong (it would allow herpes, I suppose). The fashion is away from the grand theoretical systems with ambitions to universality (for example, Sir James Fraser) and towards specificity: "Motif-structure in Coming-out narratives of Ex-Amish Lesbians of Dinwiddie County during the postvietnam era"). But it's not very satisfying.

Maybe some progress can be made by trying to define what is perceived as acceptably traditional within a given community (the emic rather than etic approach), and by recognizing there are concentric zones of things more and less "folk." This has been one response to the canon-wars in literary studies -- seeing that it's not so much a matter of what's "in" or "out" but of estimating, for a given time, relative centrality (Shakespeare) or remoteness (not touching that one!)

Also useful is generating a list of descriptors, perhaps ranked or weighted, some combination of which seems to confer a measure of "folkitude" or traditionality. In oral studies, it's clear that the audiences of traditional narrative have a standard of decorum or fittingness, and Parry found that his Serbian informants would accept as traditional epic treatments of some very recent innovations (soccer) but not others (collectivizaion and five-year plans). He concluded that the subject matter had to be adapted/adaptable to existing story-patterns. A system like I'm suggesting can lead one into the illusion of precision that numerically-based analyses always court, and also to some very squishy descriptors (how do you quantify the audience' sense of "ownership" of a musical form?), but at least it breaks a generalized intuition down into more manageable segments.

Blathering. Stop. Anything useful here?

Adam

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Mikey(Inactive)
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:26 PM

Richie,
    I would say that traditional music springs from a musical tradition. For example, there exists a tradition of playing a certain kind of music a certain way, and the music thusly produced is traditional music. I'm sure that's quite murky and perhaps we can elaborate further through the PM service.
    Burke, thank you for posting the Grove article. I included the IFMC's definition from the 1950s into my work some days ago, and included it in my second post on this thread. I apologize for your confusion. This all started when my advisor argued that Irish traditional music can't possibly be traditional because it's not old enough. My advisor viewed 1700 as a starting point. I have since incorporated into my dissertation proposal a section explaining the roots and genesis of Irish traditional music, compared that with a few definitions of traditional music (IE the IFMC's statement), and have explained to my advisor's satisfaction that Irish traditional music fits several different criteria for use of the term traditional.
In other words, the problem is solved, but I nonetheless greatly appreciate so many instructive posts. I will keep all this in mind and incoporate it as I continue research.
    Thank you,
    Mike

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From:
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:59 PM

Another thought -- I'm working from the idea that "tradition" is the problem under examination, rather than "traditional music." Maybe I'm all wrong about that. If not, there's a kind of koan I heard: "You can't buy shaker furniture" -- meaning, you can buy furniture from shakers, you can buy furniture made by shakers or in shaker-inspired styles, but there's a distinction to be drawn between acquiring things and participating in communties or events, entering a lifeworld. I'm noting your prof's cutoff date of 1700, and wondering if this person is open to theorized definitions, or is committed to definition-per-object. Folk studies shifted emphasis from text to context (maybe excessivly) some ways back.

Jeri, Declan and Burke are offering very interesting perspectives -- academics are saying some of the same things, if less clearly and at far greater length. One recent book that might be interesting is Simon Bronner's "Following Tradition" -- it's about the history of the IDEA of tradition in American culture. Can you say more about your thesis topic?

Adam

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:28 AM

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST,barrygeo
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:44 AM

You might want to contact Michail O'Sulleabhain, professor of music at Limerick University in IReland. Saw him desribe himself last night on television as an ethnomusicologist and he is the leading acedemic in the area of traditional music in IReland

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: breezy
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 05:56 AM

are you getting paid to do this?is your head head up your own fundamental?did you lose your way in life?what a gargantuan waste of time space and energy,What an anorak
Keep music live, stuff the the anthropologist

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Bagpuss
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:15 AM

My conclusion is that music just doesn't like being defined.

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 10:46 AM

Thanks to Burke for reminding us of the great Herder and his coinage in his quote.
Sometimes the discussion reminds me of the definition of the eunuch: he knows exactly how to do it, but he can't.
Traditional music is still living, if weakly, as long as it is handed on vocally or instrumentally by DOING from forefathers to descendants.
When in danger to be forgotten and get lost, this kind of music was collected and written down like the artists' music. So we can see the tracks of certain songs how they were tradited and changed in different times and places.
As a young man I began to understand this concept when I stumbled over a song in my narrow county about conscription which was written down with a slightly different beginning as a song from Saxony in Zupfgeigenhansl, a famous songbook from 1910. Later on I found it in other versions in other parts of my country, always changed in lyrics and tune, but still recognizable.
What to do in such cases? I sing the tune which pleases me most with the lyrics which please me most. Certainly not the scientific approach, but a delight.
Some are arguing in this forum: Forget the definitions, enjoy singing! Methinks they are right. Living folk music lives from practice, not discussion.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:52 AM

I sing and play music all the time. If you don't know what words like "traditional" or "tradition" mean how can you talk about them.

If I say, "?????? is a great traditonal song." How could you even comment unless you had an opinion of what traditional means?

If I say "bluegrass" or "old-time" or "blues" or "jazz" it sure would be nice to have a general idea what these music genres mean. If you haven't thought about the definition, even thought you don't have to agree, then I don't think you can talk about them with any authority.

If I say, "The Legend of the Rebel Soldier" is a great bluegrass song, but is it traditional?" Do you know what bluegrass or tradtional mean?

Have an opinion, take a position!

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM

Wilfried:
The correct definition of a eunuch is: a man cut out to be a bachelor!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: GUEST,Frankham
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 12:09 PM

There is one ingredient that seems to characterize folk music for me above all else. That is the aspect of accessiblity. In each sub-culture the music is available.
I subscribe to the communal theory of folk music. If a gathering of people (hopefully generational) can sing the song, chances are, it's a folk song. Granny will not necessarilly know the latest hip hop tune or a Beatles song. Some of the younger generation lamentably do not know a lot of the earlier folk songs such as Down In The Valley or You Are My Sunshine. I believe however that the latter songs are more accessible to people. The old country bromide about "three chords and the truth" are still applicable.

Frank

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 12:29 AM

"The Legend of the Rebel Soldier" was written by Charlie Moore of the Country Gentlemen But he took the tune of Kevin Barry (or Rolling Home) and the lyrics of "Bingen on the Rhine," a poem by Caroline Norton (1808-1877) or a rewrite ("Soldier from Missouri" or "Shall my Soul Pass through Old Ireland") and changed a few lyrics.

Since the lyrics are based on a composed poem are they traditional if changed by Charlie Moore through the folk or rewrite process?

"The Legend of the Rebel Soldier" is a great bluegrass song, but is it traditional?"

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Richie
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 01:07 AM

And should the "The Legend of the Rebel Soldier" be a Public Domain song since both the tune and lyrics come well before 1923?

Or is it not traditional?

-Richie

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: Mikey(Inactive)
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 01:27 AM

Greetings one and all,
    I would like to first offer a final parting thanks to those of you who have posted your thoughts and ideas. Next, I would like to respond to "Breezy's" post. No doubt someone with your superb mastery of the English language would appreciate the foibles of semantics, the importance of words, as well as ideas, and how they do indeed impact lives. It is so refreshing to find someone who makes no bones whatever about their blatant anti-intellectualism. It is equally instructive to correlate that anti-intellectual sentiment with a single-minded fixation on market capitalism, illustrated by the question, "are you getting paid for this?" Thank you for standing up to be counted as an example of the decline of common decency and civility in our global society.
    I have never had much luck with online services such as this, and so it is again. I will be canceling my account and I do not intend to visit on another occasion. I nevertheless thank those of you who responded in a polite fashion, whether you agreed with my posts or not. In fact, I am equally if not more indebted to those of you who disagreed in a civil manner thus promoting discourse.
      -"Mikey"

Subject: RE: Definition of Musical Tradition
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 03:04 PM

Breezy is a jerk, Mikey--sorry that you're leaving on his account--Anyway, thanks for starting a thought-provking thread, and, on behalf of most of us, anyway, best of luck with your work--and feel free to drop back in any time--