Optimum Pint Level

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:17 AM

When Linda and I have our summer folk barbecues, I always brew 10 gallons of beer. One 5gal barrel is a strongish malty brew, but still only about 4.5% and the other is a light refreshing brew at only just over 3%. I do advocate mixing them so that people can customise their pint, but I usually find that if there is any left (never much) it's likely to be the stronger one.

Incidently, the reason that many Americans think that British beer is strong is that we tend to export only the stronger bottled ones. In fact at one time the word EXPORT on a bottle of beer meant that it was of higher strength than normal. Draught bitter, which is usually served by either handpump or electric pump, or sometimes directly out of the barrel, but which should NOT be presurised does not always travel well across the UK let alone the Atlantic. Although it's not cannected with Folk Music, we often refer to our ales which are not stronger than about 4% as "Session Beers".

Last night at the tribute concert for Brixton Bert, we drank the landlord out of his two lightest beers (Young's Ordinary and Shep's Masterbrew) leaving him with only the slightly stronger Fuller's London Pride. There was definitely no deterioration in the quality of the performances - quite the opposite !

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:08 PM

When did they start labelling the beer strength here? Haven't a clue. Not that recently. I suppose CAMRA might know - I suspect they might have had some input into bringing it about.

I'm astonished that it evidently isn't the rule in the States. I can't see why any brewer would be against it. Though I suppose if you've got a culture where the assumption is that stronger beer is better beer there might be arguments against letting on that the stuff people are drinking isn't that strong.

If you ever make home brew you quickly learn that if you want you can make it lethally strong by adding in more sugar - but it certainly doesn't make the beer taste better.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:36 PM

Re: beer strength - drink beer for flavour, drink spirits for alcohol... I still say that one of the nicest pints I've had is Trent Mild - it's 2.7% and, dahn Sarf, where I am, it comes in a can. It ought to taste of that, but it don't. The only beers over 5.5% that I can remember trying were foul - sickly & over-sweet - with the exception of a couple of Belgian efforts.

If you want to get drunk fast, drink wine or spirits. If you drink beer, enjoy the flavour. Most British pump beers lie between 3.5-4.5%. Incidentally, I've said it before but, the drink-drive law of two pints in the UK is figured on the pint being @3.5% - bear this in mind when you think you're safe!

But anyone who chooses their beer on the basis of alcoholic strength is a bloody fool. Drink beer for the taste. If you're not pissed enough, hey, drink another...

*BG*

Raedwulf

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Bert
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:26 PM

Hey McGrath, when did they start labelling the alcohol in England? They didn't when I was there.

Of course REAL beer drinkers don't like their beer TOO strong. It spoils all the fun if you get drunk on half a pint. The ideal is to drink all evening and just maintain a steady buzz.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From:
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:51 PM

Uh, I meant "HEDONISM to priggishness." Sorry. And I haven't had a drop.

Adam

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: GUEST,sage
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:50 PM

After all this exhausting information pro- and con-, I'm definitely going to sing "I Mean To Get Jolly Well Drunk" (Trad. learned from Cyril Tawney afer this year's Sidmouth Festival) at the next Folk Club down here in leafy Surrey, U.K. Not easy with Courage but I'll do my best.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: GUEST,sage
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:43 PM

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:43 PM

WeeeeL - The Late and unlamented Watney's "Starlight" was so weak - less the 1.2% it could be sold without a licence in the UK.

Personally, as a bloody awful singer, and self concience, I normally require 2/3 pints just to join in the chorus - Anything over that then my judgement goes astray, and I tend to want to sing, as the odd UK Catters meet has found out to thier cost.

I also have one Golden Rule - If I'am driving I don't drink - FULL STOP ! Perhaps this might explain why I don't attend folk clubs in the Cardiff Area.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From:
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

A quote I heard from a Brit -- might've been Peter Ustinov: "When you discuss alcohol with Americans, they either get thirsty or angry." We swing wildly from puritanism to priggishness. Sometimes the same people.

Adam

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:20 PM

On my only visit to the USA I was amazed to find no strength information on beers. You could only tell how strong they were by drinking them and feeling the effect.:0)

American brewers must have even more power than UK brewers!! Cheers.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:21 PM

Beers and ales are not generally labelled as to strength

They are here. On the bottle, and on the pump for daught beer. Really strong beers tend to taste pretty nasty, I find.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:05 PM

Re the concern a few have expressed about converting Optimum Pint Level to Optimum Liter Level, in my neighborhood the common expression is "the PBL" - for Proper Buzz Level - in recognition that even for any one individual, the amount and required rate of consumption may vary depending on the circumstance and occasion at hand.

The arguments about which beer/ale/... is stronger will probably never end, at least until we all are licensed as chemists. In the US, in most states, the accepted practice for distilled spirits is that the "proof" is 2 times the percent-by-volume alcohol content. Even this is not an "iron-clad" definition, since different jurisdictions use slightly different methods of measurement; but for "talking purposes" in the US, 100% pure ethyl alcohol is "200 proof," and in some jusrisdictions you can buy it that way, although most places the "maximum" offered for sale is 180 proof (90% by volume). Most popular distilled stuff runs about 90 proof, or 45% alcohol by volume.

In the US, "cereal malt" beverages, which includes beers and ales, are generally regulated based on the "percentage of alcohol by weight." There is no simple way to convert "percent by weight" to "percent by volume" since the conversion depends on the density of the "other stuff" in the mix - and it does vary.

And may also be noted that the "standard" 12-oz can or bottle is 12 fluid ounces which is a measure of volume, not of weight - so you can't readily compute the "absolute amount of alcohol" in a can, unless you've got a good balance. The real problem, though, is that in most jurisdictions, there is no "label" strength. Beers and ales are not generally labelled as to strength - so all you've got to go on is your bartenders guess, and he's unlikely to know any more than you do. In some jurisdictions, where there are limits on what may be sold, some containers may be marked with a "does not exceed 3.2 percent by weight," (or 2.8% in a very few places) but that doesn't mean that it is 3.2% - only that its less than that.

It's a fruitless, and useless, argument, since no matter how strong (or how weak) your favorite is, you can always drink enough to get to your PBL, and you can always drink too much if you choose to do so.

John

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:22 PM

So Prohibition in the States didn't rule out beer with an Alcohol content of 3.2. So what was all the fuss about? There are lots of great beer with that alcohol content.

Optimum Pint Level for Alcohol Free Beers would be zero so far as I'm concerned. I'd sooner drink lemonade or water.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 10:09 AM

WHen I said "weaker" I was referring to alcohol content, not flavor (or flavour.) And I was certainly not expressing a preference--as a matter of fact, some of the best malt beverages I've ever had have been at English pubs.Three or four (English)pints represents 60 to 80 fluid ounces; an American 6-pack has 72 ounces of beer that's usua;;y in the 5.5% range.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: IanN
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:58 AM

So what would be the optimum Alcohol-free pint level? As much as you could dring without needing to "go" mid-performance? Or Would the inevitable burping hamper the vocals?

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:02 AM

"alcohol free beer that tasted of real ale"

Blech!

If yer gonna drink, then ya gotta cope...

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:49 AM

Now, if they made alcohol free beer that tasted of real ale.......

but apart from that, I'd make a pint stretch for an evening (I'm usually driving) and would go to water or soft drink after that.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:01 AM

Actually Kevin, 3.2 to 5.6 would be ABV which is the percentage of Alcohol by Volume. This is now used instead of Original Gravity as a result of EEC legislation. O.G. would be a figure like .1042 which is about 4%ABV and would represent the specific gravity of the brewing wort, before fermentation.

Proof spirit is yet another way of measuring alcohol content, 70% proof is about 40% ABV. Originally, proof spirit was determined by pouring a specified measure of the spirit over a specified volume of gunpowder. The mixture was then ignited and if the gunpowder eventally detonated, the spirit was deemed proof. It was historically used as a way of deciding the degree of excise duty (ie proof or under proof) to be paid and was not a quantative measure of the spirit's strength.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: IanN
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:55 AM

Oh no - not litres. I didn't pick that one up. What a nightmare. I've spent years of extensive research looking into the optimum pint level for various tasks (playing guitar, singing, playing darts, going to sleep etc.).

Oh well I guess I'll just have to start all over again!

Re. different beers - very tricky. I tend to prefer a light "session" beer rather than the darker stronger brews which make me feel too sleepy to perform properly.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:39 AM

I like a pint at about 4% alcohol by volume, pretty well standard for most of the local drinkable Bitters here in Manchester.
As I understand it after prohibition (agued fore by the Kennedys, who then proceeded to buy up as many of the breweries as they could get their hands on, and then argued for its abolition) the maximum strength of beer was set at the weakest level (3.2% I think). As I understand it, things have changed with imported and local micro-brewed stronger beers available.
In continental Europe it's hard to find a beer bellow 4.7%.

All the best PP.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 05:15 AM

People differ, beer differs. The other day I checked on the beers available on draught in the Half Moon, Bishops Storford, which is a good session pub. They ranged from 3.2 to 5.6, and bottled beer goes higher than that. That's Original Gravity - I'm not sure how it measures in terms of "proof".

But the idea that the strength of the beer is the primary measure of quality doesn't really stand up to examination. I'm with Dave Bryant in generally preferring to drink the weaker beers, and more of them.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Ian
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 04:19 AM

As I commented re the queens speech, are the new measures to be introduced regarding public houses Litres to replace Pints. This will involve a new extended and costly period of research to discover the Optimum Litre Level. This is another reason to start or rekindle the save the pint campaign.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Bert
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:13 AM

Dick, I don't know where you were drinking in the UK, but it surely wasn't in our local.

Of course thing have changed a lot over the years and you can get some seally good mirobrews here in the states.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 11:37 PM

"UK beer is quite a bit weaker than that served in the US"

Yer kidding right?

The pub, my local, serves mostly import (Imported form the UK) stuff and every example I can think of is a higher proof than the swill one usually finds from taps in the US...

I mean even our domestic Canadian beer is better than domestic American beer... I think UK beer puts both to shame easily...

;-)

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 10:57 PM

A couple of points. Folk music and singing in the UK seems to be wet, as a rule; dry in the US. UK pints are 20 ounces; US pints are 16. UK beer is quite a bit weaker than that served in the US.

re coordination, I know of very few singers, and only a few more instrumentalists with whom coordination is a major concern.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:52 PM

For myself... If I'm playing a gig, then I lay off the stuff... I might take a pint O Guin' up with me for sippin on during the last set... I prefer to play and sing sober, and save my getting good and drunk for afterwards...

If it's a session, or a sit-around-the-kitchen-table party, then the gloves are off... That's when I can play for me, and -I- don't care if -I- play drunk! LOL

Saw a recent interview with Leonard Cohen... said "There's nothing I love more than getting drunk and making music with people" But later in the interview, while talking about life on the road and such, he said the rule with him is, if ya wanna play in his band, no drinking after the first set, or after the gig... So I guess he does all his drinking in the afternoon? LOL

The only hard and fast rule is that there is NO hard and fast rule... everybodys different...

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM

I'm with the "don't do it" brigade. Only because I can't play a thing with a drink in me. I don't even need to have had a lot to drink to affect my coordination, one or two will do it. Conversely the other guitarist in my band is a BIG drinker and can down 8-10 pints during the course of a gig without any detrimental effect to his playing (and he is VERY good).
As a youngster I played in a "working" club/cabaret band with a bunch of older men. I was in my teens and these guys were late thirties, early forties. They taught me many bad habits but I learned fast that I couldn't copy them and still expect to get on stage and perform.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM

I can hardly add anything after Raedwulf's good post.

If you are relaxed and feel confident, the optimal performance will be at an alcohol level close to nil or nil (I don't want to go into why 'close to' here, but that means at most half a pint).

With more than that your motor performance goes down, at first slowly, then rapidly.
For those who can relax better with alcohol, they are getting better (due to confidence etc.) with an increasing amount of alcohol until the deterioration of motor performance takes away the benefit from confidence. This optimal point for those who need the relaxing effect is a very personal point and one pint too much can be davastating to your performance.

As for well known musicians who drank a lot, that only shows how good they were (as musicians) that even under impeding circumstances they still could perform fine. But they'd have been even better without the booze, at least without it in these amounts.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:26 PM

Driving and playing an instrument are a very different things. It's quite possible that some people after a few drinks may actually "drive better" in an aesthetic sense - more smoothly and decisively and so forth - but they also drive more dangerously, and that is what matters when it come to driving, not whether it looks pretty and maybe gets you there quicker.

Fortunately musical instruments aren't lethal in the same way. Different considerations apply when it comes to "dangerous playing".

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Bert
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:23 PM

I used to like a pint or two before performing, but Marti Rogers taught me that it's better not to drink at all until after.

Check Mudcat Radio archives and watch the evenings deteriorate the more we drink.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 02:09 PM

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many people who think a couple of pints improves their musical performance also secretly believe that they drive better after a couple.

Murray

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 12:34 PM

Raedwulf had it right....everyone is different. There is NO way to set a standard or define a comfort level for anyone else.

For one thing, body size is relevant--a 200lb guy can usually handle more than an 85lb woman...but add to this metabolism, and you get still different answers. I am fairly lucky in that I process alcohol pretty rapidly, and if I limit myself to one or two (which I 'almost' always do) there is little effect. (I was once stopped by police on New Years eve...after having 3+ only 2 hours earlier, and they got a 0.0% reading on the breathylizer)

The other lucky thing is that I am not compulsive. My brother CANNOT have one drink--he will not stop until he is p***ed. I can have one or two & be happy.

I have seen performers drink all evening with no noticable effect, and others who were obviously impaired......know yourself and YOUR limits!

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

For me, if I am playing at all, either gig or session, the answer is none. If I have just one, it will lead to more, and after 2 the fingers don't work at all. Found out the hard way. So, I just wait until I am through playing, then have a few.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Pied Piper
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 11:27 AM

Hi Bruce. Maybe my first post was a bit on the vehement side, but I do get annoyed when somebody suggests that there own personal choice is the only choice. I'm shore you have good reasons for not drinking, and I'm glad your still playing and enjoying it.
Hi Guest I met up with Sean again at a Klezma session on Sunday afternoon (once a month at the Hare and Hounds Shude Hill Manchester).I recon he was on his 3rd or 4th and was playing like a daemon (as usual).
All the best PP

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 11:04 AM

Ah yes - writing is a whole different thing, and I don't mind being less in control of voice & instr for that. Definitely a good imbibe or two can help there. But its not essential. And sometimes it turns out to be complete shite!
I hate using PA and almost always sing without & haven't noticed any problem. Surely alcohol dehydrates the vocal cords??

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 10:41 AM

That's almost a new thread - the most p****d artist that you have see. Alex Campbell and John Martyn and The Pogues spring to mind immediately.

R

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: IanN
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 10:29 AM

And what about writing? How many of our great songs were written whilst under the influence? How many great ideas would remain hidden forever if the writer hadn't been "influenced" into a state of giving something a go?

How many pro.s have you seen have a "relaxing pint" before a gig? I've seen a fair few (and some during).

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 10:17 AM

I very rarely sing or play without a drink - that includes Opera and Choral singing. I will drink ordinary draught bitter - the lower the alcohol the better. The pub where we run our monthly session sells an excellent pint of Larkins which is 3.4% abv, and if I drink it at the rate it goes down naturally it does not seem to unduly affect my performance. I definitely don't need it for courage (although I often drink Courage) - I need it to keep my throat moist.

I am willing to bet that most of those singers who believe in zero alcohol when they're performing, probably use a PA most of the time. I have never used a PA to sing classical music, and only use one when I'm singing folk songs if I'm in a large or noisy venue or outdoors. How many of the non-drinkers could survive the sessions of a festival like Sidmouth, Whitby, or Towesey without drinking. True I could drink water, but I find it completely unsatisfying compared to a pint of real ale - and as I won't drink fizzy beer, I'm damned if I'll drink fizzy water. As for fruit juice, it's the quickest way to dry up your throat that there is. At many classical recitals that I've been involved in we would get offered tea, coffee, and squash during the interval - if there was a nearby pub, most of us would rather pop over for a swift half.

Most of our folk tradition in the British Isles came from pubs and gatherings where alcohol was available - just look at how many songs in the DT refer to drink. Surely if we want to sing them authentically the odd pint doesn't hurt.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:34 AM

Incidentally the US pint is a fair bit less than the pint in the UK and in Ireland.

Funerals? Well actually at the funeral you wouldn't drink - but then you wouldn't drink at a wedding either. But before and after is another matter.

The weirdest thing is to be in a session where you're sobering up as others are going the other way - I remember at a folk festival where I knew I'd need to be driving home at the end of it.

Drinking to steady your nerves I think is always a mistake. Drinking because you feel like a drink with your friends is a different thing. The rule of thumb is, if you drink to make yourself feel good, you're asking for trouble; if you drink because you are feeling good before you start drinking, you're doing it the right way round.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: GUEST,strupag
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:26 AM

Not that it's too relevent but I was once involved with a wee band in Ullapool(North West Scotland) who were asked to supply the music for a whisky tasting evening run by Grouse. We were told that we would be paid "in kind". As we were thirsty young lads in these days we agreed.
At the end of the evening the man from Grouse said "your music was fine but I think it will be cheaper if we pay you a normal fee next time!"
There's your answer. Lay off the pints and stick to drams!

Andy

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:09 AM

When I drank, the usual evening went: "I haven't had enough to drink yet. My playing and singing will get better when I have hit the 'optimum' level", to, "All right! I'm in the groove now!". to, "I'm too drunk to play worth a shit. Guess I'll just give up and drink."

Now that I don't drink anymore, I'm always at my "optimum" level. That's not to say that I always play well. But, if I suck I know that it's just me having a bad night, not that the chemicals are out of balance. And it's not "Puritanism". It's "sanity".

Bruce

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 09:08 AM

90p a bottle where I am JudeL. And I'll probably only drink one or two. Hammerite drinks pints of orange squash (from 30p depending on the pub) - but then she's 11 and doesn't have a choice.
Fortunately for the publican, Mark drinks enough for all of us when he comes along.
The cheapest evening I had was when the pub had no bottled fizzy water & had to give me soda water for which they could not charge me. That was really embarassing!!

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: JudeL
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:56 AM

KB - "it's a much cheaper evening when you're drinking fizzy water"   NOT always true, some places charge more for soft drinks than they do for beer, I know as I've been to some of them when I've been driving, and it's very annoying to not only not be able to drink alcohol but to be penalised financially for being sensible! I'd like to blame forgetting words on too much alcohol but I'm afraid most of the time it's just me going blank. There are drinks for which a judicious amount can help the voice, two which come to mind are: port&brandy   and Rum&shrub both of which have a very soothing effect on the throat.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:48 AM

In the interest of research, I'll add UK in relation to my previous posting. I'd hazard a guess that getting a few down you before going on stage is more Brit than American among folkies nowadays.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:43 AM

(UK) Alcohol is a relaxant, which means, in moderate quantities, it's good for the voice (nothing wrecks a voice quicker than tension, whatever the cause), but generally bad for playing an instrument (nothing wrecks your playing faster than lack of co-ordination, whatever the cause).

What 'moderation' is for any given individual can only be judged by that individual by themselves. Other people's experiences are no guideline at all, even if of cursory interest. The best option, of course, is going to be "don't get nervous, don't get tense", but if that relaxing pint (or six) works for you...

*BG*

Raedwulf

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:33 AM

I know a lot of people who will "pass" on their turn to sing until they've had what they recognise as their optimum pints.
Its very hard being an optimum-zero amongst a crowd of optimum-4s. sigh.
Along with many other optimum-zeros, I'm not that way out of sanctimoniousness - each to their own & all that. On the other hand its a much cheaper evening when you're drinking fizzy-water.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:31 AM

I would rather not have a beer until I'm finished. Sometimes I get bought a pint and it's not always welcome. A bitter is ok but a definate no no in Guinness. It wrecks my throat.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM

Pity he various posters didn't give country of origin. It would be interesting to see if puritanism is more widespread in the UK, Ireland or USA. Myself, (UK), I'd give up playin sooner than boozing, and frequently do.

Now Sean of Buxton, he's best between about the third and seventh pints.

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: Schantieman
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:23 AM

I find a pint or three helps singing but hinders playing.

(The audience, if any, may have different views!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Optimum Pint Level
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 08:18 AM

Zero tolerance appears to be Politically Corect nowadays :0)