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Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen

Mrrzy 19 Nov 02 - 04:07 PM
Mary Humphreys 19 Nov 02 - 05:21 PM
Joe Offer 19 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 19 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM
Willa 19 Nov 02 - 06:03 PM
Liz the Squeak 19 Nov 02 - 06:09 PM
masato sakurai 19 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM
Ralphie 20 Nov 02 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,HP 20 Nov 02 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Apr 13 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Apr 13 - 01:16 PM
Mrrzy 24 Apr 13 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Apr 13 - 12:26 PM
Stevebury 20 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Jul 13 - 02:56 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 04:07 PM

Barbara Allen has the red rose and the briar growing up out of the lovers' graves (she's the rose, he's the briar) and tying a true lover's knot.

I know another song by Cynthia Gooding in which an unnamed woman dies (O Mother, Go And Make My Bed) which I can post if anyone wants me to, in which the same plants do the same things. So, the red rose and the briar seems to be something that is not particular only to Barbara Allen.

Meanwhile on the Forum, there is a thread to which I will make a blue clicky in my next post, forgot to highlight the url, sorry, discussing yet another red rose and briar much more metaphorically.

But what sparked this thread was my family finding out about an old stained glass window, one of many triptychs (tryptichs? How are those large-middle-flanked-by-two-smaller-pieces spelled?) in a biulding my great-grand-uncle Dezso(with a long umlaut) Jakob somewhere in Hungary or Yugoslavia, depicting an old Hungrian folk tale in which the lovers fall in love, and Mama prevents the affair so they die of sorrow, and the red rose and the briar grow as in all the other folk songs, except Mama comes and digs them all up. Then they grow back, and Mama burns them, and then they don't grow back, end of song.

So one question is, how old is the red rose and the briar idea in English, and does it begin with Barbara Allen, and how old is that in the meantime? I'll look for the dt study thread on that and make another blicky.

My next question is, does anybody in English sing about the red rose and the briar being defeated by the survivors of the dead lovers? If not, song challenge, maybe? We'd have to have a song in which the lovers are prevented by an outside force - or could it be the younger sister of the lover of Barbara Allen, who is so sickened by her (BA)'s callous treatment of her (sis') brother?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Alle
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 05:21 PM

There are red rose and briar motifs in the versions of 'Lord Thomas & Lady Eleanor', 'Fair Margaret & Sweet William' and 'Lord Lovel' which I sing. There is no knowing whether they are older or more recent ballads than Barbara Allan.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM

Hi, Mrr - I'd like to see "O Mother Go and Make My Bed." I think I've seen a similar song here, but SuperSearch isn't working so I can't find it.
The DOS version of the Digital Tradition works splendidly, as always. A search for rose briar brings up an interesting assortment:

So, yeah, the theme is common - and interesting. Now, you should be able to come up with the same results by entering rose AND briar (AND is uppercase) into supersearch, but I couldn't test it to be sure just now.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 05:40 PM

Mrzzy, Could it be this one?

Rose and the Briar - Alan Taylor


There is also this song :

The Briar && The Rose - Tom Waits


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Willa
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 06:03 PM

See also Joe offer's posting on this thread:thread.cfm?threadid=38819#547657


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 06:09 PM

The rose and the briar come straight out of mediaeval romances, probably passed on to the general populace as overheard by those who heard them told by troubadours and minstrels.... probably about 1300 onwards.

Just a useless titbit, but there we go.. I'm full of them!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: masato sakurai
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

According to N. Würzbach and S.M. Salz, Motif Index of the Child Corpus: The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (de Gruyter, 1995, p. 57), the rose and briar motif appears in "Earl Brand" (Child #7 B, C, I), "Fair Janet" (#64), "Lord Thomas and Fair Annet" (#73), "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" (#74), "Lord Lovel" (#75), "Lady Alice" (#85), and "Prince Robert" (#87). The index is strictly based on Child's collection. It is interesting to know the versions of "Barbara Allan" (#84) in Child doesn't contain the motif.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 06:18 AM

For a humourous take on this age old topic, why not try Flanders and Swann's "Missalliance"..A love story between a Honeysuckle and a Bindweed.
It does seem that this theme of thwarted love (whether animal or vegetable!) will always strike a chord in the human psyche.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: Lyr Add: MOTHER, MOTHER, MAKE MY BED
From: GUEST,HP
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:27 PM

Not the song by Cynthia Gooding as mentioned in the first posting of this thread, but a traditional song that seems to be compiled from bits of Lord Lovel, Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor, George Collins to name but a few ...

MOTHER, MOTHER, MAKE MY BED.

"Mother, Mother, make my bed
And wrap me in a milk white sheet.
And wrap me up in a cloak of gold
To see whether I can sleep.

And bring to me the two bailies
Likewise my sister's only son.
That they might fetch me my own true love,
Or I'll die ere he can come."

The first three miles they walked
The next three miles they quickly ran,
And when they came to the high waterside
They fell to their breasts and they swam.

And when they came to the high castle
They found my Lord sitting at his meat.
"If you could know what news we bring
Not one mouthful more would you eat.

"What news, what news do you bring to me?
Is my high castle burning down?"
"No, your true love is very ill
And will die ere you can come."

"Go saddle to me my milk white horse
And bridle him so very neat.
That I might kiss of her lily lips
That are to me so sweet.

They saddled for him his milk white steed
At twelve o'clock at night.
He rode till he met with six young men.
With a corpse all dressed in white.

"Come set her down, oh set her down
Come set her down by me
That I may kiss of her lily lips
Before she is taken away."

My lady she died on the Saturday night
Before the sun had gone down.
My lord he died on the Sunday next.
Ere the evening prayers were begun.

My lady was laid in the high castle
My lord was buried in the choir.
And out of my lady there grew a red rose
And out of my lord a sweet briar.

The rose and the briar, they grew up together
Till they could grow no higher.
They met at the top in a true lovers' knot.
And the rose clung to the briar.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

So Liz, you believe that troubadors and minstrels are the ones responsible for tacking this rose brier motif onto the end of roughly 10 of Child's ballads. You believe that they have been tacking this motif to ballads liberally since about 1300 onwards?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:40 PM

HP, you are correct in that this song is a collection of commonplaces and not tied to any one ballad. Bronson actually gives all of the versions with Lady Maisry. I can't see any reason for this, but I'm open to suggestions.

I've just completed a study of this motif and will be posting my findings on the other thread.

Basically the motif is pretty universal throughout Europe and predates balladry. Its earliest appearance in English ballads is in Fair Margaret and Sweet William, Child 74, on a London broadside c1685. It is almost exactly this version of the motif that has become attached to Barbara Allen in English and American versions (Not Scottish) probably some time in the mid 19th century. If you want more detail check out the other thread in a few days' time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 06:06 PM

An excellent though not exhaustive study of the European versions of the motif is given by Child in the head notes to 'Earl Brand', Child 7. There are also several studies of the motif in scholarly works.

...and I've just spotted this thread is 11 years old!!!! Doh!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:16 PM

We talk slow around here.


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Subject: add: O Mother go and make my bed
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 01:55 PM

Gest HP, that is very close.

I posted this on the other rose/briar thread, having forgotten that I'd started this one years ago...

In "O Mother go and make my bed" they aren't named, the true lovers, and we don't know why the man died, but the woman is singing of following to the grave, and then the red rose and the briar finish the song. (Oops, I obviously misremembered the song till I wrote the lyrics down here - the man is healthy till the last verse!)

Here the the Cyhtnia Gooding lyrics:

O MOTHER GO AND MAKE MY BED

O mother go and make my bed, spread me that milk-white sheet
That I may go and lay down on the clothes for to see if I could sleep

Then she sent for a trusty little boy, and he was her sister's son
That he might go and tell her lord for her that his love would die ere he come

The first 2 miles the little boy walked, and the next 2 miles he run
He run till he come to some broad waterside where he laid to his breast and swum

He swum till he come to some high park gates, where they all sat down at meat
O and if you could but hear the bad news brought to you, not a bit more could you eat

Your high park gates are not fallen down, nor your high castle wall overthrown
But your own true love is going for to die, she will die and before you come

He call-ed for his stable groom, go saddle me my milk-white steed
That I may go and kiss her cherry cherry cheeks, that once they were so sweet

That lady she died on a Saturday, just before the prayer was done
And the lord he died the following Sunday, just before the prayers at noon

That lady was buried in the high chancel, and the lord he was buried in the choir
And out of the lady sprang a red rose-bush, and out of the lord a sweetbriar.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 12:26 PM

Life expectancy was shorter in the middle ages, and the reason is clear. In the middle ages, people dropped like flies, dying of love.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Stevebury
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 12:40 PM

I was browsing through versions of "Earl Brand" in Bronson, and came across a final stanza in a rose and briar ending which is unusual, at least in my (perhaps limited) experience. And I thought of this thread. The last stanza goes:

But bye and rade the Black Douglas,
And wow but he was rough!
For he pull'd up the bonny briar,
And flang'd in St Marie's Loch

[#3 from Scott 1833-4, from Perthshire; "Last three stanzas from a stall printing of c. 1792."]

Are there other examples of further follow-up (from revenge? anger?) after the rose and briar twine romantically together?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM

I think this version is extensively dealt with in the prior thread referred to in the OP.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Red Rose & Briar but NOT Barbara Allen
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:56 PM

Harry Cox objected to this motif coming in Barbara Allen. As I have related elsewhere, particularly in an interview which Bob Thomson & I did with him year before he died, & which I pub'd in Folk Review in 1973, he declared adamantly that anyone who sang Barbara Allen with the rose·&·briar had it wrong — 'They're mixed up,' he declared, 'that don't belong there, that comes in Lord Lovely [sic]!' Odd, because he was fully aware of the concept of variant versions ~~ several times asked me if I knew a song he had just sung, and what was my tune for it; but as Rose-Briar didn't come in his Barbara Allen but did come in his Lord Lovely, he uncharacteristically denounced any departure from this distinction as an error.

~M~


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