Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?

Subject: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Genie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:34 AM

Just bought Finale's NotePad Plus, which lets me save a sheet music file as a MIDI.

Can I now post a MIDI of a song in the forum? If so, how do I do that?

Or do I have to email the MIDI file to Joe or Leo or a Joe Clone and have them post it?

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 12:43 AM

We did have a program called MIDITEXT that allowed Mudcatters to post MIDI files in the forum, but I think it's better if we just have them at Mudcat MIDIs.

E-Mail 'em to me and I'll add them to Mudcat MIDIs.
You can also send them to MMario, but I'll let him post his own e-mail address.
-Joe Offer (click to e-mail)-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Genie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:19 AM

I already have his address, Joe. Thanks for the info.

What if we want to give folks access to a tune that's not in the DT?

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:43 AM

Same thing, Genie - make sure the lyrics are posted in a thread, and be sure to tell us where the thread is when you send us the lyrics MIDIs. If at all possible, it helps if you can send us the tune with lyrics matched to the tune - it can be a time-consuming process for us to do that if we don't know the song.
If you're sending a Finale file, I guess you should send it to me, since I don't know if MMario can handle Finale.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:50 AM

Oh, by the way, when you post lyrics or when you send a MIDI file, it really helps if you give source information. Lyrics in the Digitrad should be documented. It's a simple thing, and it's makes the information much more valuable. If you got it from a printed source, identify the source. If you transcribed it by listening to a recording, say so. If you're giving lyrics from memory, say so - but try to tell us where you learned the song.
We don't have a way of posting documentation of tunes we receive, but if you send us the information, it sure helps if we need to make corrections. I can usually tell quite easily if a tune is wrong, but it can be tough to figure out how to make it right - unless I can go back to the source.
I get some tunes that go on the back burner and stay there because I just can't figure out how to make them work. The worst problems are with meter - we get MIDI files that somebody pounded out on a keyboard, and the output just doesn't fit into sheet music. In tunes with 4/4 time, we expect four full beats per measure - no more, no less.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:23 AM

I can handle finale notepad files.

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:47 AM

Joe, I've noticed that the timing or notes are sometimes off in MIDIs already in the DT.

Most noticably, the timing gets messed up during pauses. There's a tendency to jump back into the tune too quickly or sometimes make the pause too long. I don't usually have the source for the MIDI so I can't say if the person actually sings it that way, but it sure makes it difficult for folks to learn the tune and hear it as it relates to the lyrics.

The tunes are sometimes written in the wrong mode - for example ionian (major) when it should be mixolodian or aeolian (minor).

Should anything be done about this?
The current MIDI could be corrected, or if Dick doesn't want to change 'em, another nearly identical tune could be added.

Thankyez

---

Yeah, Jeri, I agree with you. Some of those tunes drive me bonkers. I'll be glad to accept any and all tunes. If they're better than what's in the DT, I'll post them in Mudcat MIDIs and link them to the online DT.
However, let me say that you probably won't find an improvement in pauses - when tunes get converted from one format to another, pauses get lost. I have to say that when I transcribe tunes, I leave out the fermatas (but I certainly include rests). I think people should be able to figure that out for themselves. Should we pay more attention to pauses and maybe solve that problem? I'm not sure that's a priority when we have worse problems.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Genie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:43 PM

Joe, you said "...tell us where the thread is when you send us the lyrics."  Do you mean "when you send us the MIDI?"

Also, "... it helps if you can send us the tune with lyrics matched to the tune.  I can often send you sheet music, but if I send a MIDI, how do I "match lyrics and tune?"

I prefer unornamented MIDIs if I'm trying to convey a tune, BTW.  No instrumental riffs or flourishes, no harmonies.  But if I am trying to let people know the harmony parts, I'll usually make a longer MIDI with just the tune the first time through and then the tune with harmony.

Genie

---

Yes, send lyrics when you send MIDIs. There isn't an established MIDI standard that includes lyrics, so that means you have to send the tune to us in another format. Generally, the format we prefer is Noteworthy, but Finale is OK. The idea is that we get somebody who knows the song to match the words to the proper notes.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:31 PM

Hypothetical question for Joe:

I've just received an "offer" from ScanSoft, makers of my favorite OCR program, TextBridge, to let me buy a new program that "prints to .pdf," which - because I use TextBridge - they can get for me at the special price of $49.99.

I visited the site of the "maker" of the software, and find that the "regular price" is $49.50, but:

If someone sends you a .mid file, you can use it to "lift the notes" into any of a whole bunch of programs. If they could send a .pdf along with it, with the lyrics synchronized to the printed dots - would that meet your needs?

I realize that $50 is still a big chunk for a lot of us, but it's a lot better than $200 for Adobe distiller, and some might find it worth it, if it's an "ok with you guys" way of working the lyrics thing.

I posted a note for the "techies" at Tech:Converting PDF Sheet Music, and the software is at Zeon DocuCom PDF Creator.

John

---

It ain't preferable, John, but it would work.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:11 AM

Wouldn't a .pdf (or any other sheet music representation) be sufficient without the MIDI?

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM

speaking only for myself - yes. More work, but sufficient.

The problem is that with a midi alone there is still the problem of how the lyric fits the tune - and that is not always obvious. embedded lyrics as Joe mentioned above have the problem that there is not a universal standard.

I personally prefer an abc with synchronized lyrics to a midi with embedded lyrics; but that is a personal preference.

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:01 AM

"There isn't an established MIDI standard that includes lyrics."

The MIDI standard defines meta event FF 05 as the lyric event. MIDI is however a bad format for producing lyrics or even for producing printed music. It wasn't designed for these purposes.

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:09 AM

Excuse me - I did not speak correctly; there is not an established software means of dealing with embedded lyrics - some programs do it one way, others another. some produce mid files with karaoke lyrics - other produce karaoke files with midi event lyrics. The point is that even though many programs can produce acceptable sheet music from a midi file - especially a midi file that is produced itself from a notation program rather then a live performance, the embedded lyrics may or may not show up depending on how the midi was produced and what program is being used to re-transcribe it.

ABC is much more standardized. PDF files are pretty much un-ambigious; but don't give those of use who cannot READ music a way to know what it sounds like.

We are talking DT purposes here, which basically means an un-ornemented simple melody line. Embedded lyrics do work if software is compatible - but you don't always know what is being used to produce and/or transcribe.

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:42 AM

It's always a problem MMario. Even with abc, there are many programs that do not work to the standard. Lyrics that align correctly at concertina.net will not always align correctly at folkinfo because we run abc2ps and abcm2ps respectively. abcm2ps is the more reliable and has the advantage of being actively developed by Jean Francois Moine who seems very keen on getting things right. Hopefully in time, the situation will improve but I fear the "dinasaurs" will still be around for some time.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:44 AM

yeah - but with lyric-embedded midis the programs don't even RECOGNIZE the output from some of the other programs - let alone mis-align. yet they both produce "midi" files

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:49 AM

Ture MMario, and don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your efforts at all, on the contary, I believe you are doing an excellent job.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM

de nada - I didn't take it that way. Just trying to explain why a "midi alone" even when lyrics are embedded is not a preferred method for me to get a tune. ABC tends to be more standard at the moment then midi with embedded lyrics - so I have to maintain less programs myself.

Everything for *me* ends up in NoteWorthy Composer even if I transmit it onwards in another form- for *my* purposes it is the most versatile media. YMMV

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 12:31 PM

Perhaps I could clarify a bit more: there is no universally accepted music format that includes lyrics. ABC seems to be coming close (for the folk community), but still not close enough. We need a standard format that is easy for everyone to use, and one that doesn't take up much computer storage space to produce a simple tune.

So far, I guess we have to say that SongWright still works best for the purposes of the Digital Tradition - but there are only 6-1/2 people in the world who know how to use it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:35 PM

I think I'd give a yes and no to that Joe. Songwright does seem to work for the purposes here but it has the disadvantage of being a proprietary format and one that is no longer developed.

I think abc will get there and it does have the advantage that there is active development. Another advantage with abc is that it is a plain text format (I think Songwright is a binary - haven't got one to check) making it easier to store a database and to post to newsgroups and forums. One real drawback with abc BTW is the way it allows dotted rythms using < and > symbols - I don't need to tell you what that can do where HTML is involved!

I don't belive anyone of us can give a definitave right or wrong but it is my belief that in the future, abc will prove to be the best choice for our (both the dt and folkino - our needs are quite similar) purposes and at least in situations where I am in control of what programs are used (I mean getting things like png, pdf and midi from folkinfo abcs using the conversion routines there) I believe we can produce pretty reasonable output.

Whatever, its a tough one for all of us.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

Songwrite produces a straight text file.

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:08 PM

Thanks MMario.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

jon - I have the specs for songwright format somewhere if you are interested

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

Here's a SongWright file MMario sent me today. Looks very much like ABC, doesn't it?
-Joe Offer-

---

  N-Tittery Irie Aye
  C-unknown
  A-
  T-
  S-100
  K-G
  B-6/8
  F-Music of the Mormon
  H-
  M-5E-4_F-8 G-4_F-8 E-4 E-8 a-5 b-4 a-8 G-4 F-8 E-4 G-8 a-5 G-4_a-8 b-4 a-8
  L-Come all my good peo-ple and lis-ten to my song. Al-though it's
  H-
  M-5G-4 F-8 E-4 E-8 E-4 D-8 B-4 D-8 D-4 B-8 D-5 D-4 D-8 B-8 B-8 B-8 B-4 A-8 B-5
  L-not so ve-ry good, it's not so ve-ry long. And sing tit-ter-y I-rie Aye
  H-
  M-1R-4 B-8 E-8 E-8 E-8 E-4 D-8 E-5
  L-Sing tit-ter-y I-rie Oh

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM

good g*d that was fast!

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:28 PM

Yes, it's similar to ABC in style, but it isn't ABC. How much freeware/shareware, indeed any software is available to read or manipulate Songwright?

Joe,

Could you please expand on we have to say that SongWright still works best for the purposes of the Digital Tradition Why?

Ed

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:36 PM

Thanks Joe, It is very similar!

MMario, purely for the purposes of educating myself, I would be interested in reading the SongWright specs. I don't know how big they are, whether a post here would be appropriate, etc. but I'll leave that to you to decide. If you are willing, you could always eail them to me at [e-mail].

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:46 PM

Not sure this will come through correctly:

SongWright Dictionary
==============================
A SongWrightV file consists of two parts:

    a) header
    b) music

==============================
Syntax of the header
------------------------------
There are eight lines starting thus:
------------------------------
N-
C-
A-
T-
S-
K-
B-
F-
------------------------------
N-Name of piece
C-Composer
A-Author
T-Tempo
S-Speed (15- 270 range)
K-Key eg A Bb F# a (minors in lower case)
B-Time eg 4/4 (0/0 is free time)
F-Footnote, eg date
------------------------------

Entries for the KEY and the TIME are the only necessary ones.
==============================
Syntax of the music
------------------------------
Header line
One or two music lines
One or more lyric lines
(One or two music lines)
(One or more lyric lines)
(etc.)
------------------------------
Each line has a fixed begining
------------------------------
H-
M- or M+ or m- or etc.
L-
------------------------------
Words and/or guitar chords can be put in the header line.
------------------------------
eg
H- Am Dm G7 Am
------------------------------
------------------------------
Syntax
------------------------------
[clef part][width part][notes]
------------------------------
Syntax of clef part

    [clef][+or-][number of bars in line]
    ------------------------------
    M treble clef
    m bass clef
    + treble clef with bars joined to clef below
    - bass clef not joined below
    # (need not be accurate!)

------------------------------
Syntax of width part
------------------------------
You may see a width display command next such as
W-1 W-2 W-3 W-4 W-5
Note, W-3 is the default and may be omitted.
------------------------------
Syntax of notes
------------------------------
[note code][accidental][measure][characteristic]
------------------------------
Note codes
------------------------------
Treble clef note codes (white notes)
------------------------------

    Code Note

    < C-- lowest note
    = D--
    > E--
    ? F--
    @ G--
    A A--
    B B--
    C C-
    D D-
    E E-
    F F-
    G G-
    a A-
    b B-
    c C Middle C
    d D
    e E
    f F
    g G
    h A
    i B
    j C+
    k D+
    l E+
    m F+
    n G+
    o A+
    p B+ highest note
    r rest
    R rest
    x blank
    X blank

------------------------------
Bass clef note codes (white notes)
------------------------------

    Code Note
    < C--- lowest note
    = D---
    > E---
    ? F---
    @ G---
    A A---
    B B---
    C C--
    D D--
    E E--
    F F--
    G G--
    a A--
    b B--
    c C--
    d D-
    e E-
    f F-
    g G-
    h A-
    i B-
    j C middle C
    k D
    l E
    m F
    n G
    o A
    p B highest note
    r rest
    R rest
    x blank
    X blank

------------------------------
Accidental codes
------------------------------

    code meaning
    - normal
    # sharp
    $ double sharp
    & flat
    * double flat
    % natural

------------------------------
Measure codes
------------------------------

    Code meaning
    1 whole note
    2 half note
    3 dotted half note
    4 quarter note
    5 dotted quarter note
    8 eighth note
    9 dotted eighth note
    0 sixteenth note
    - dotted sixteenth note
    = thirty second note
    / triplet
    6 quarter triplet
    7 eighth triplet
    ) sixteenth triplet

------------------------------
Characteristic codes
------------------------------

    Code meaning
    [space] nothing
    + chorded with next note
    _ tied to next note
    . staccato
    - legato

------------------------------
EXAMPLE
------------------------------
This line of music:

                               -O-

                         |    |

----**--------------------|--|-|---------|--------|--|

   * *       /|         O   |       |   |       | |

--*----*----/__|_------------|-------|---|-------O---|

       *       |    |       |      O    |          |

-------*-------------|-------|-----------|-----------|

      *       /|    O       |          |   |       |

-----*------/__|-------------|-----------|---|-------|

    *          |             |          | O       |

--*--------------------------|-----------|-----------|



would appear as:

H-
m-3c-2 g-2 j-2 e-2 a-2 f-4
L-
==============================

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: Genie
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:17 PM

Wow! I'm overwhelmed.

Tried to translate some music into ABC once, and I found it extremely tedious, not to mention that I couldn't play it back to check my accuracy. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


Actually, I prefer sheet music, now that I have a program that can produce it relatively easily. But you folks can't post it in the forum, DT, or Songbook, cam you?

Genie

Subject: RE: Tech: OK, I can do MIDIs. How do I post them?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:18 AM

Thanks MMario. It seems rather more limited than abc but covers the basics. For reference, the current abc draft is at http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/abc-draft.txt

I don't know if any one is interested but some of this thread illustrates some of the difficulties we are trying to work through with abc.

Genie, quality graphics take up quite a bit of space and are only useful to those who can read music. In spite of problems, it is much better to try to use "computer readable" notation which can be manipulated and used to produce other output.

An area we are working on at folkinfo is producing reasonable sheet music from abc. For an example try try this. Clicking on the "txt" link (in the tune section) will show the abc used and (assuming you can view pdf files), following the "pdf" link will give you the sheet music. The sheet music is not stored on the site but is produced by running conversion routines on demand.

Jon