BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!

Subject: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM

At the present time, a traditional music session in Peterborough, with unpaid customers, is prevented, and the licensee is facing prosecution, as this is considered as Public Entertainment and illegal without a licence and a fee.

However, I am at the moment 'watching' a live TV broadcast from a public building in London, where before a paying (and clapping) live audience, and a live TV audience a chap is conducting a real Post Mortem/Autopsy, for 'entertainment'.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:48 PM

Cool... I'd pay to see an autopsy!

That'd be fun

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:51 PM

Do they have a Public Entertainment Licence?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 07:56 PM

The performance was illegal, because for one thing the building was not licenced for autopsies. The guy did what anyone sensible would do when confronted with such idiotic, intrusive, nannying laws - he just got on with it. (As many a folkie has done for years in the pubs of England and Wales.) Bravo Channel 4 for aiding and abetting.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:05 PM

By the way, what you saw, Shambles, was not live but had been discreetly edited before going to air. It happened for real around 7.30-9pm GMT. The 350 or so in the audience who paid for their tickets (there were quite a few journos on comps) shelled out GBP17.00 a time. Apparently the tickets could have been sold several times over. No-one fainted as far as I could see on the edited film.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:08 PM

As many a folkie has done for years in the pubs of England and Wales.)

-and the licensee is facing prosecution.

We were informed in the news before, that this first public Autopsy for many years, was illegal, and that the police were present, but I saw no local authority officers rushing in to protect the public from this illegal activity.......

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:10 PM

I bet you they'd have been there if you cut up a human body in a pub...

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:12 PM

I didn't see the programme, but I did hear the surgeon (who sounded as though he were German FWIW) being interviewed on the radio.

He claimed that the ticket sales didn't remotely cover the cost of staging the affair. He also said that individual tickets were £12.00 each, not £17.00.

I would guess that he could have charged £170.00 per ticket and still have had a full house.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:14 PM

You know, I'd much rather sit in a pub or club, drinking and listening to music, that watching the famous "Y cut" being made or the skin...no, never mind, I won't go there. Suffice to say that I know too much about autopsies.

But it does bring up the question: are televised public dissections next? And then, a return to public hangings? (Granted, televised coverage of executions has been proposed in the US, but hasn't been done. Yet.)

Autopsies are important; they teach the living. But let's have some respect for the deceased.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:19 PM

Autopsies are important; they teach the living. But let's have some respect for the deceased.

Having watched this one (on TV), I must agree with that.

This did not show respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:35 PM

Murray, the tickets were indeed said to be £12 earlier in the day, but somehow gravitated to £17, no doubt because von Hagans realised he'd fill the place anyway.

What sort of respect do you consider appropriate Shambles, and in what sense was it not shown? What the hell point is there in having your body respected when it's dead, anyway?

I tuned in fearing a show that might have been the norm for a fairground booth a hundred years ago, but was in fact favourably impressed with the whole thing. Even if it had been just morbid titilating entertainment, I can't see why it should be illegal. And if it meant a new lease of life for our country pubs, MgGrath, why not?*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 08:40 PM

I see enough autopsies on TV. They are evidently considered good entertainment, in fact coroners have had lots of series about them, and forensic investigators are very trendy right now.

Why someone would buy a ticket to see a real autopsy done? I really can't put my head around that one.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 09:25 PM

Yuck. If it was free, I wouldn't go.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 10:39 PM

Nothing brings me more joy than viewing a fatty liver and ulcerated spleen brought on by gastronomic excesses of alochol and protein.

It is wonderful to speculate how Morris dancing twits, looked when they had zits, brought on by an over-indulgance of frits.

Shambles, YOU need to go to one. Perhaps, it will shock you back into reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:17 AM

What sort of respect do you consider appropriate Shambles, and in what sense was it not shown? What the hell point is there in having your body respected when it's dead, anyway?

Well the chap doing the cutting was asked by a member of the audience to show some respect and at least take his take his hat off while he did it, and he refused!!!

There is a serious answer to your question, which I will answer, if no one else does so first.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:06 AM

Von Hagens is German. Same guy who became known with body worlds.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 07:12 AM

To be precise, Shambles, someone in the audience asked if it would not be more respectful if he removed his hat (implying that it would). Von Hagens replied that he wore his hat out of respect for those in whose tradition he was following. He was referring to those who had performed public autopsies in a spirit of scientific enquiry during the age of enlightenment. (Pictures of whom were on the walls.) The audience, which struck me as wholly respectful, responsible, serious and absorbed, applauded this response.

I await that promised "serious answer" with interest, but I will be disappointed if dress code comes into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:02 AM

I sugest that public autopsies of PEL inspectors might prove quite popular in some pubs - they don't need to be dead first......

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:03 AM

At some folk clubs I know, the performers are likely to get dismembered without being dead first.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 02:46 PM

Autopsies are important; they teach the living. But let's have some respect for the deceased.

Rapaire said this and is exactly right. We the public used to find many things like this entertaining. We have not had such a thing in this country for 170 years because we generally have found other entertainment, in that time.

What sort of respect do you consider appropriate Shambles, and in what sense was it not shown? What the hell point is there in having your body respected when it's dead, anyway?

I expect little respect for my body but that does not mean that I do not respect the views of others or the wishes of those that may care for me.

I am pretty sure, no matter what permissions I may have given for my body after my death, that my loved ones would not like to see certain things happen to my body in public. Many of which, that I saw last night.

One was the poor chap's brain being taken out of his scull, displayed on a table and sliced through, for the benefit only of curious paying audience and the future (strange) career prospects of Mr Von Hagens.

As an ex-slaughterman, I can recommend the many slaughter houses where the curious public can visit to become familiar with the warm blood and entrails of the animals we kill to eat and books, museums and computer simulations are for more effective at informing the public about anatomy, than last night's show could ever do.

I felt very sorry indeed for the relatives and friends of the poor nameless chap on the table and for him also. I found it sad to think that he lived his life and ended up being remembered mainly if not only, for once owning the sliced brain that was presented to the audience like a final dish from a TV cook.

It happened last night, I watched it, and was glad that I did. I now know for myself what this was and what it was not. Yes it could have been far worse, perhaps the next one is planned to be. Possibly the next one will have to have more gimmicks, in order to top this one?

I can only hope that this one curious peek from behind the curtains, was enough, and that there will not be another such event for another 170 years, or hopefully never again.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:33 PM

What no one has mentioned was that the person who died GAVE Prof Hagens PERMISSION to do the autopsy, in public.

And to push it that one stage further, why is everyone baulking at this when there are DOZENS of human bodies, cut up, plasticized and put into poses on display in a museum in East London? They bitch about the cutting up done to a select audience, but the final display is there for all the world to see, and apparently a fair proportion of them have!

I for one would not go if you had a naked Sean Connery giving tickets away free with a kilo of chocolate. And yet, all these were done with the person's consent and there are 150 people in full knowledge of what will be done to them, on the waiting list for his next project.

I may not know art, but I know what I like and I know what turns my stomach!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Sooz
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 03:48 PM

Will it be repeated? - I missed it!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 05:01 PM

Not only did he give permission, LTS, but last Sunday two of his relatives were intending to get to London to see the show. I don't know if they made it, but if they did, I hope they didn't have to pay!

As for "the animals we kill to eat," Shambles, speak for yourself. I don't respect dead bodies, but I do try to respect living ones. So we must be different in every way....

Going back to the point of the whole thing, it was obvious some people in the audience (and perhaps in the television audience too) were uneasy about being in the presence of human death. Von Hagen's well-judged show will have helped some to address that taboo, as it did me.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 06:01 PM

Apparently the man autopsied agreed to do it 'because it would help educate people'.

If Von Hagens is prosecuted it will be for performing an autopsy without a British license and doing it on unlicensed premises.

And it's all publicity for the exhibition which is due to close in 2-3 weeks.... but will continue to make more money for Prof Von Hagens if it remains open by public demand...... get the picture??

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 07:00 PM

Mmmm ! "Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem Dry Bones ......"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:49 PM

I agree with Fionn, I watched the programme with interest, and thought that plenty of respect was shown, although why it should be I don't really know, as the guy autopsied was dead! And as for the pathologist wearing a hat whilst performing the autopsy, I can't see how this affects things one bit! The deceased man and his surviving family gave their permission, and as has been mentioned already 2 members of his family were in attendance.As for the respect for the dead issue, anyone that watched the programme will have noticed that the team took great care to ensure that when the body is to be viewed by the family before the funeral there would be no immediately obvious signs that a post mortem examination had taken place.
Shambles-I am also an ex slaughterman, in fact I still hold a slaughtermans licence, I don't really think many people would want to take a tour of a working slaughterhouse, in fact I think I would worry if they did!
I fail to understand your point that reading a book about an autopsy would be more informative than attending one! all medical students, including dental surgeons in the UK have to attend at least one autopsy as part of their course, after all if we don't know how the body works, how can we be expected to fix it?
On a final note, if anything as the deceased man died as a result of a very unhealthy lifestyle, [he was known to drink 2-3 bottles of whisky and smoke 100 cigarettes per day), anyone witnessing the condition of his heart, lungs and liver may be encouraged to adopt a more healthy lifestle.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:16 PM

They're probably working on the slaughterhouse programmes right now. The next step on from Animal Hospital.

Celebrity Slaughterhouse... The Naked Knacker... They must be cursing how they failed to take advantage of the Foot and Mouth mass culling.

"The real Mash" straight to your living-rooms from Iraq... (And they are probably genuinely lining that one up as well.)

The trouble is, the penduluim is bound to swing, and when it does it'll go right back the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 09:28 PM

I fail to understand your point that reading a book about an autopsy would be more informative than attending one! all medical students, including dental surgeons in the UK have to attend at least one autopsy as part of their course, after all if we don't know how the body works, how can we be expected to fix it?

The point was well made earlier that autopsy is important.

The idle curiosity of the public, who do not need specialist knowledge, can be well provided by many means other than this public side-show.

Perhaps the police will now charge the public to visit the site of road accidents, to learn anatomy?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 10:46 PM

We show operations on living people on Tv regulary, so why the objection to an autopsy? It was shown at midnight and plenty of warnings as to the nature of the documentary were given.
PS. you spelt Skull wrong. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 11:08 PM

Hell, yes!

If the public display of my decrepid corpse gave a few more dracmas to my impoverished estate....I would grant them the rights to do a viva-section.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:07 AM

...ah...be careful what you wish for, sweet pea!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST, Sledge
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:09 AM

The main reason given, it seems for the Public dissection of a Human body was for education, according to Von Hagens. That may have been his intention but I don't feel that the majority of those who paid to see this event or watched it on TV were really educated. I consider them to be more along the lines of those ghouls who slow down at road accidents just to try and get a good look, and all too often later using the experience for the entertainment of their social circle, "oh it was so terrible I just coudn't drag my eyes away". Just what did they come away with that they felt was educational?

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:45 AM

If it's for education, videotape one and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:20 AM

I don't remember anyone saying the prime purpose was education, Sledge. I heard the prof himself say he was interested in getting us all to behave a little more naturally around the subject of the dead human body (many of whom in the audience had apparently never encountered one, not even a relative's). He said the response he got was not that of a freakshow audience, but comparable with what he got from his medical students - serious interest, and apprehension about their own reactions.

Just possibly, the show might have been of benefit for anyone who may have to identify a relative from several corpses after a serious catastrophe. But I couldn't care less if no good purpose is served except to boost sales to his separate exhibition. After all, he wouldn't be the first to publicise an exhibition, and I don't see why the law need come into it.

On yesterday's ITV lunchtime news it was put to him that he was a showman and he admitted that entertainment came into it. But he said that was true of lectures too. If they weren't entertaining, he said, students would fall asleep. There are still plenty of lecturers around who need to learn that lesson.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:50 AM

And if they invite cannibals they don't have to clean up the mess.
One can imagine a spin-off with an extroverted cannibal doing a cooking show like Jamie Oliver or Nigella called 'From Body to BBQ Plate.'

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST,sledge
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:23 PM

I still feel that most people who "witnessed" it can now go "seen that, ticked the box, t shirt to prove it, next".

And as for preparing anyone to identify a loved one from assorted bits after an accident, I don't think so, how on earth could anyone prepare for that, "its OK officer, I can do this no prob's, I saw the Von Hagens post Mortem".

And if showmanship comes into it, what taboo next, all for a few quid.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:33 PM

Despite being told before hand that the show was illegal, the law does not seemed to have come into it.

However, not too far away in Westminster, our official guardians were far more aware of their duty to protect us and prosecute.

Dancing Outbreak

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: SussexCarole
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 02:26 PM

Post mortem on TV much better than 'in the flesh' - NO SMELL!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:28 PM

"don't remember anyone saying the prime purpose was education," - the Prof said it himself prior to doing the thing.... at the same interview when he made it clear the guy knew he was on his last legs and gave his permission.

I notice today that all the posters for 'Bodyworld's have a sticker over them saying 'due for exportation Feb 2003'... guess he got his extension...

What did I tell you, 15 posts back.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM

heloo, i think the autopsy bloke, prof. von Hagens) was wearing a niv=ce hat anyway, it is exactly the same as the hat that I wear, if somebody asked me to take mine off, i would say no as well. If you want to see my hat, look at the Mudcat Pictures.john

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:47 AM

I think Hagens dresses like Lector does in the movie Hannibal, hat and all, nice PR ;-)

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 08:04 AM

At least we can be glad that the arguments against autopsy from two centuries ago were not mentioned this time:
Autopsy is against God's will for it will interfere with the resurrection of the flesh.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Public Autopsy That's Entertainment!
From: Nemesis
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:19 PM

I think the suggestions for "Celebrity Autopsy" are a good idea... "Celebrity Big Brother" with the added frisson of the viewers getting to vote for who they'd like to end up as the lucky winner of an autopsy

Who'd you have in the Big Brother House for that?