BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 01:41 PM

Hmm. Well, I see what you are saying, but I think you are still drastically over-estimating the "peaceful" nature of Christianity compared to Islam or Judaism. There are many Jewish religious writings of peace and non-violence -- both Ghandi and Desmond Tutu have creditted them with inspiring their struggles.

AFAIK, Islam has yet to create a great peaceful leader, but to be fair, they haven't had the 100 years or so of relative peace to bring about that kind of cultural shift. Islam teaches violence as a last resort, and quite frankly the region has been plagued by one invader after another for the past couple hundred years. The Palestinians are, after all, fighting against those who siezed and occupied their homes and land. It might be time for them to let it go for the sake of peace, but what they truly lack is inspired leadership.

I think the actions of Israel have little to do with Jewish culture, and much to do with modern greedy politics. It's not fair, I don't think, to blame their religions for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. You might as well blame Christianity -- if the Jews hadn't suffered centuries of Christian oppression in Europe, Hitler would have never been able to use them so successfully as a scapegoat, and the Zionist "terrorists" in Palestine would never have been able to get the support they needed from the west to sieze land for a Jewish state.

On one side we have a former terrorist in power, and on the other a war criminal. Is it any wonder that peace isn't made?

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:39 PM

(quote)
"Well, I see what you are saying, but I think you are still drastically over-estimating the "peaceful" nature of Christianity compared to Islam or Judaism. ...."

Hold it right there. I specifically said *teachings* twice now didn't I ? The "nature of Christianity" as a religious identity , with all of it's divisions in Protestantism alone, is as subject to the failings of the humans that carry them forward as any religious group.
No argument "ever" on that point.
Now ,within the context Isreali/Palestinian conflict ,where the Christian inhabitants of their measure of "The Holy Land" have been made irrelvent and made to stay out of the dispute , one would want to know to what degree the "peaceful nature of Christianity" is even allowed to play a part. You didn't address that part.

(quote)
"There are many Jewish religious writings of peace and non-violence"

Ofcourse there would be only where are they in "practice".
As I said earlier it is a fair point to suggest an alternative approach seeing as how the Hebrew *teachings* have yet to produce . Need I remind you that the military hero, Yitzhak Rabin , who was leaning toward just that expression of the Isreali's was ruthlessly "asasinated" by a young right-wing Isreali student and Netanyahu ,whom fed upon this right-wing tribal fundamentalism in his opposing campaign and won election as Primje Minister; his opponent now murdered by an Isreali hand.

(quote)
"I think the actions of Israel have little to do with Jewish culture.."

This really is a gross oxymoron of a statement. Isreal was created to be "the" center of all that "is" Jewish culture of Jewish identity , its very Fountainhead "especially" expressed in the self-determination of sel;-government , and to try and segregate Isreali politic as somehow out of the loop of Isreali culture ,whom daily have no problem quoting the "Mosaic Law" in the Knesset and entertain the dream of one day reserrecting the Temple of Solomon, is hopelessly disingenuous to even attempt on your part.

(quote)
"It's not fair, I don't think, to blame their religions for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict..."

Well ,seeing as how their espective eligions are at the very heart and hearth and core of their "tribal identiies" and is used to justify each of their methods of addressing their side of the struggle I fail to see why you believe it "unfair". You're going to have to buttress this point of yours better. They don't separate out their religious tribal idnetities from their political policies of "self-determination" so one may well ask how you come to this conclusion. Fair enough?

(quote)
" You might as well blame Christianity -- if the Jews hadn't suffered centuries of Christian oppression in Europe, Hitler would have never been able to use them so successfully as a scapegoat,..."

Well if they ,at the hands of disparate warring regimes "professing" variations of adherence to Christian doctrine, were so thoroughly oppressed fro centuries ,one woders how they could've ever arisen to such prominence as to be "able" to be made a scapegoat of. How "European" culture mishandled the expression of their fractured Christianity for centuries speaks to how any religious culture can be "corrupted" for "political ends".

(quote)
" ...and the Zionist "terrorists" in Palestine would never have been able to get the support they needed from the west to sieze land for a Jewish state."

Well ,whom set the stage in that area really does directly fall upon the British Empire's shenanigans in the name of their brand of British State Chrisitianity. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Deda
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:31 PM

The Jews gave us the seven-day week, and the sabbath, whence came weekends. And monotheism.

Has anyone mentioned the polio vaccine? More medical and scientific advances than we could easily count.

My ex-husband, my (converted) orthodox daughter and my grandson.

BTW I very highly recommend the movie "Trembling before G-d". See it if you can -- very beautiful and moving. Also a gift of the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:46 PM

You see, this is exactly my point. By pointing fingers of blame at one religion after another, you just end up in a circle of vicious recrimination that gets nowhere. And I hate to break it to you, but there are quite a few Christian Palestinians; this is not solely a Muslim cause.

You give the example of a single Israeli who behaved in a violent fashion for the sake of his religion. Honestly, if we wanted to name names, I bet you'd run out of Jewish names before Christian ones. None of it would be indicative of the religious teachings of either.

Saying that the state of Israel fairly represents Judaism is like saying the United States fairly represents Christianity. Hogwash. The state of Israel is a government first, and a Jewish people second. Governments of any stripe rarely act with the religious values that they profess to represent/protect/desire. You can't say on one hand that the actions of predominantly Christian states aren't representative of Christianity, while holding Israel and Palestine up to a different standard.

Then you claim that Jewish teachings and practice of peace don't count, while ignoring hundreds of years of Christian writings which determined that non-Christians didn't have souls, and therefore it was okay to kill them. By equating only the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, you are ignoring centuries of other Jewish religious texts; the idea that Judaism is all about an eye for an eye is a stereotype, nothing more.

To imply that the Jews really weren't oppressed during the middle ages in Europe is... well... I suggest you read some history. It sounds like you've been listening to the neo-Nazis that believe that all Jews are rich and in league with the devil. Which is exactly what the attitude was during the medieval era. The Black Plaque was blamed on the Jews, bad harvests, famine, drought -- anything was the Jew's fault. The Jews, of course, rarely reacted to their persecution violently -- partially out of self-preservation, but also because of their religious beliefs. Is that not a legacy of peaceful teachings?

Is Christianity irrelevant in the conflict over Jerusalem? I guess that depends. Do predominantly Christian governments have a right to sieze a portion of Jerusalem for their Christian Holy City? I'd say no.

But since many of the predominantly Christian nations (as well as others) are activily involved in trying to resolve the conflict, and the Palestinians at least have repeatedly made requests that nations like the US and Britain get MORE involved, I fail to see how you can come to the conclusion that Christianity is not being represented. Acheiving peace will allow more Christians to make pilgrimages if they desire to do so. Peace is in the best interest of all the religions involved.

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM

I have understood that Jesus' teachings, and those of Paul, were after the school of Hillel, to which Gamaliel also belonged. Jesus had to have happened at a time when certain ideas had already been broached, discussed, and taken on by a proportion of the community. Judaism had grown towards that point. And continued beyond it. Didn't it develop the ideas of pacifism much earlier than the other monotheistic religions took it up?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:39 AM

(quote)
"You see, this is exactly my point. By pointing fingers of blame at one religion after another, you just end up in a circle of vicious recrimination that gets nowhere."

Well ,to prevent this from cycling further to distorting what I actually said ( which would happen less if you merely applied the common courtesy of (quoting) my axtual words more instead of just reacting . I do so there "is" no misunderstanding ),can we please return to the *original* point that led this dialogue?

I responded to Tom Hamilton's post
"As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To which I responded :
(quote)
"Stupid for "whom" said it ......but harldy *inaccurate* when you consider that Old Testament culture of an "eye for an eye" and "fierce identity of tribalism" codified......"
".....While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* introduced *forgiveness* and the beatudes of which " Blessed are the Peacemakers*."

You took exception to that and we began what started out as a civilized debate which , having grown up in New York , iI know is a delicate task at best.
Then you're rebuttals become more exaggerated:
(quote)
"You give the example of a single Israeli who behaved in a violent fashion for the sake of his religion."

My dear, the lone Isreali assasin of war hero Rabin was part of a very distinct and , what's more ,*widely reported upon by the Isreali press* as part of a growing *right wing* party movement which then opposing candidate Netanyahu fed red-meat rhetoric too and thus contributed to the *fundamentalist* elements of the Likuds that made it acceptable enough for someone to take the law into their own hands as if following a "higher law".
Point; this heinous political assasination of an opposing candidate did *not* happen in a vaccuum. If you bothered to read or see the interview with Rabin's *widow* on whom she held responsible for fomenting the fever that led to her war hero husband's death you'd know better of what you speak as well.
What's more it is the more peaceful Isreali's whom knew they had to challenge this rise of their right-wing and had a chance with Barak.
Well all know the criminal acts of the Palestinian "jihadists" which caused Sheron to be swept into power and it looks like his tactics will now sweep him out again.

(quote)
"Saying that the state of Israel fairly represents Judaism is like saying the United States fairly represents Christianity."

For you to say that the State of Isreali does *not* represent Judaism when it was *created* to be *the* center of the Jewish world infused with the self-determination of self-government , is so abyssmally self-delusional as to make the credability of your argument derail.
Exhibit A:
(quote)
"Then you claim that Jewish teachings and practice of peace don't count,..."

Excuse me ,but this *impression* of yours is patently false and if you had bothered to porduce the quote where I say this this putting false words in my post would've been avoided. But you preferred to just emotionally "react" to what you thought you were reading.
This is how rational debates degenerate into the name calling as you've already begun to do by impuning my opinion as being informed by Neo-Nazi propaganda which is damnably insulting to me personally.
(quote)
"It sounds like you've been listening to the neo-Nazis that believe that all Jews are rich and in league with the devil. "

I have always found the hateful propaganda of far right wingnut Arian Nation and Neo-Nazi group wholey repugnant and degenrate in its using false words to promote false doctrine.
My Dad fought in the Euro-theatre of WWII to the noble cause of uttelry defeating the Nazi Germany's ideology and its attendent war machine and I was raised accordingly so you keep your creeping personal insults.
(quote)
" To imply that the Jews really weren't oppressed during the middle ages in Europe is..."
I was not ,as you say "implying anything. What I said specifically said was:
(quote)
"Well if they.....were so thoroughly oppressed fro centuries ,one wonders how they could've ever arisen to such prominence as to be "able" to be made a scapegoat of."

I well know enough Euro-history ( for a New York yank ) to have been very informed of the culture of Euro-oppression of the Jews as a "seprate people" ,but history itself proves that they all weren't *so* oppressed since many acheived positions of prominence in Proto-Euro societies after Europe *began* to become enough enlightened during the Rennaissance and "higher learning" grew to be souhgt after. To say otherwise is to deny the rightful claim to the advanced talents of the Jews that are a part of their history. You need a little more balance in your history learnin' as well.

My final point goes with this uninformed line of reasoning:
(quote)
"By equating only the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, you are ignoring centuries of other Jewish religious texts; the idea that Judaism is all about an eye for an eye is a stereotype, nothing more."

Well tell that "just" to the Likud party whom use this rhetoric regularly as translaytions of that rhetoric is reported in little papers from the New York Times to the Washington Times
as well as C-Span broadcasts , with translation ,of actual Knesset floor debates. What's more I do *not* equate *only* the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, but I *do* point out how this part of Jewish teaching is resorted to among the Isreali *fundamantalists" whom are the driving force of the right-wing Likud whom have held sway over the policies of a "nuclear armmed" Isreal and we have the present state of hostilities
to show for it.
And before you go off on another pre-rant on piping up and acusing me of "totally ibnoring" the Palestinian incitements to violence ( didn't know "Infitada" ,"Hamas" ,and Palestinian Jihad" were to be equated by you as a part "Christian" culture with your remark about there being "Christian-Palestinians. I wonder how brave you would be to speak out when surrounded by a policy of fever-pitch hatred where you live surrounded by your militant neighbors )
Get real will you please.

Other than that here's hoping that the more enlightened souls
in *both* Faiths acheive ascendancy and demonstrate the better angels of their respective Faiths and tribal identities they draw from them.
Fair enough?
I pray for Peace.;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us?
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:31 PM

Well, obviously we must agree to disagree. Sorry you felt I was insulting you or ranting. But it still appears to me that you are falling into an ethnocentric trap. You recognize Christian teachings of peace as an ideal, but not the same teachings of peace in Judaism. Fundamentalists of any creed seem to pay a lot of lip-service to tradition while failing to uphold it. Christianity hasn't been pacifist as a general rule (although some sects are) since the Roman era.

Having been on the receiving end of some of those "peaceful" Christian values, I'm not inclined to share your views about how much more violent the other religions are. It's a little more clear to me that the views of one group are not necessarily representative of a whole religion. I kinda doubt your average group of Methodists, Mormons or Mennonites would have put me in the hospital.

Other than that here's hoping that the more enlightened souls
in *both* Faiths acheive ascendancy and demonstrate the better angels of their respective Faiths and tribal identities they draw from them.
Fair enough?
I pray for Peace.;-)

Heartily agreed -- except I'd say *all three* faiths. Plus throw in some of the Hindu radicals... and the list goes on.

On to more scholarly subjects, Incidentally, I did a little research and came up with ONE (the only?) pacificist Islamic leader. He was one of the founders of Pakistan -- ironically, both India and Pakistan have non-violent pioneers in their history.   Abdul Ghaffar Khan, a Pashtun living in British India, founded the Khudai Khidmatgar, a movement which eventually gained 100,000 members, many of which were eventually slaughtered by the Indian (British) Army until the army refused to shoot them any more because they just stood there and let them kill them. Khan was a comtemporary of Ghandi and involved in the same cause, and the even toured together to promote peace in the 1940's. Khan didn't leave any writings, unlike Ghandi, so the fundamentalists in Pakistan are doing a good job of writing him out of history, and of course in India Ghandi is the hero.

Who knew? They didn't teach that in my elementary school, although we learned all about Ghandi.

P.S. I wasn't quoting because we were the only ones talking, so it seemed a little redundant to me.