Developing Personal Objectivity

Subject: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM

So I go to a gig, and I take my MD recorder with me... I record a show that just goes swimmingly... everybody in the room has a good time, laughing and joking, and singing and stomping and clapping, getting good and drunk, and occasionally even dancing about the joint...

I get home... I edit the MD to take out tuning bits, and instrument switching time and serious flubbs like songs where strings broke or stuff like that...

Then sitting down to it, is like sitting in a dentist chair! Or worse, cause there's no nitrus... My chums come over and ask, "Hey... Put that MD on from the other night... that was a great show." And I sit, sweating and squriming like someone hooped me a habenario while they sing along, recall jokes and such...

Now I in no way expect that EVERYBODY is gonna even like my show... Why would I? I know I don't like everything I hear... but I know some people who do like what I do... But shouldn't -I- enjoy it at the very least? I know I enjoy PLAYING the show... but reviewing it... man... it's like a drill in my eye...

Is it me? Am I alone in this seeming self revulsion? Any suggestions on how to get over it?

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: nutty
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:03 PM

Clinton ... it is not possible to prevent youeself from being overcritical when reviewing your own performance.
You can spend hours agonising over a missed note wrong chord etc. that your audience have never even noticed.
When reviewing - look at the overall feel of the evening. If the audience are really enjoying themselves then what more could you ask?
No one puts in an absolutely 100% perfect performance and a pursuit of perfection can become boring.
I'd say leave some of the imperfections in ....its what makes you human.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:05 PM

I don't like listening to myself, usually, even if I'm happy with the product.

I think what's important is that you have a good time while you're doing the show. :-)

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: C-flat
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:11 PM

I can't even stand to hear my voice on the telephone answering machine!

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:13 PM

Oh believe me... 100% perfection isn't my goal... I've spent more than enough time on stage as an actor, a dancer, a singer to know that 100% perfection isn't even a possibility...

More the ability to listen to myself and not wanna dig a hole, crawl into it and pull it in after me!! LOL

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:14 PM

You probably will not get over this but you'll just have to steel yourself to it. Just about every singer or instrumentalist is like that. I know I am - I'm going through it myself right now listening to the rough mixes of my CD. The "errors" stand out like sore thumbs to me. I agree - listen for the overall "feel" of the evening or session - that's what most of the others will be paying attention to. However, it's easier said than done. Just rest assured that we're all, at least most of us, in the same boat!

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM

Listening to recordings of myself, I am acutely aware there is not one single note played in what I would reckon is the right place. It is embarassing in the extreme. It is also very worrying...am I right? But then someone comes along and say they like it so I shrug and get on with things and do it again. but I do wish I could get more pleasure out of my own performances. But it's a fact, I love doing it, but I hate to listen to it.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:24 PM

It's two different hats, performing and producing, just as writing and editing are two different hats best worn by two different people.
One reason people have producers. You could barter it with someone else in the same boat.

~S~

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 01:27 PM

So maybe my misery is just gonna have to revel in present company?

LOL

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:01 PM

I think it just goes with the territory. The first time I heard my voice on tape I almost quit. But for some strange reason people kept asking me to sing. After fifty years of singing (and getting paid for it) and eight years as a radio announcer, I'm pretty used to it now, but. . . .

You've been singing gigs for some time now, which means you've got something going for you. If your audiences don't turn green and bolt for the door, you're doing okay. If you have repeat business, you're doing better than okay. If you were going to issue some of your performances on CD, I'd say get someone who understands what you're doing and whose musical judgment you really trust to help with criticisms, suggestions, and selections. You be the final judge--but don't be to hard on yourself. It's pretty obvious that you care about what you do, and with folks like that, nothing you do is ever going to be quite as good as you want it to be. But don't let that hold you back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

Hi, Clinton: Listening to a tape of a performance is like a blind man watching a movie. You're just getting the sound. What you're not getting is that connection that you make with your audience, the obvious pleasure people are getting from your performance, or the guy who was laughing in the back row, too far from the mike to be heard. For all those who agonize over tapes of their performances, realize that music is not a succession of notes and words. How many people have you heard who get every note clean, even on the most complex arrangement, and miss the song entirely? I've heard note for note transcriptions of ragtime on guitar that completely lost any feeling of it being ragtime. I'd rather hear some guy get the feeling of the music, and mess up every once in awhile. lThink of how you respond to other musicians. Do you go home at night and say, "Man, that e flat note on the third line of the eleventh song he di buzzed? I didn't think so. Music is communication... it is feeling. If you get that right, the mistakes are NOT THAT IMPORTANT.

Every once in awhile, one of the guys in my quartet will mess up one of their leads. I see the audience really into the song, clapping and moving to the music, and applauding thunderously after the song, and the guy who sang the lead is thinking about how he messed up a line and looks like he just ran over his dog. If you entertain people and give them a good time, that's all there is. That's all there is. Did I say, that's all there is?

The only mistake people will remember two days later is if you were so intent upon not making any mistakes that they didn't have a good time.

I bet I'd have a great time, listening to you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

"You be the final judge--but don't be to hard on yourself"

I guess that's the REAL trick right there eh folks...

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: MMario
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:18 PM

Clinton - many actors will not watch a show or movie in which they appeared - becuase all they can see it the "goof"s - it appears to be a common phenomenon

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:19 PM

Clinton, maybe this Amergin character could be your unbiassed supportive critic?

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:33 PM

LOL!   good one greg!

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:48 PM

Somebody hit Rick with this thread when/if he shows up later... I'm curious for his take especially...

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:11 PM

Hi Clinton...just got in.

Do I relate? In spades. I LOATHE the sound of my singing and usually my playing. I don't just have high standards, I've got ridiculous standards. I'm one of those musicians who sound much more comfortable live than in the studio....so I should have made a slew of "in concert" albums.....but No. 'Cause when I'm live, I ramble on in some kind of 'free association' thing. I mess with gadgets (string raisers, banjo mutes) and I sound all together too damn glad to be there!!! It's true of course...I AM glad to be doin' music and getting paid for it, but it has looked (to reviewers) in the past that I'm simply too casual to worth noting.

In the studio, I'm SO conservative when the red light goes on that sometimes I can't believe I take so few chances. I hear it ALL, and it sounds like you do too. Don't have a solution....by I know what yer talkin' about!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:04 PM

Well, I used to flinch hearing myself, and felt sometimes I should just quit singing I sounded so bad. Somewhere in the last few years I got over that completely. I think it might be Áine's fasult, actually!   Funny thing is, I actually enjoy my own recordings now. There no-where near Rick's class of work, but I do it as a hobby and I am happy with it!

So, yes, you can get over it, Clitnon. It is something akin to heterodyning where you let your self-awareness go into a squeal. You just need to relax and like yourself a little more.

A

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:07 PM

Now who's going to break the run and say "I think I sound great - I can listen to myself for hours"?

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:14 PM

Oh,. what the heck, McGrath... I'm usually pleasantly surprised that I sound better than I think I am... a different spin..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:35 PM

hmmm...Clinton...do you have tapes, CDs, etc...of others that you think are 'almost' perfect? What do you suppose they heard in their own recordings? I wonder if Doc Watson is totally happy with what gets recorded?

I do know some folks I can listen to MUCH better in person than on a recording...perhaps you are one of those! You seem to always get invited back for more gigs, so something is going right!

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Roughyed
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM

There are several distinct though overlapping things going on here. There is 'music' meaning the dots on the lines which is always an approximation of what MUSIC really is, a direct communication of something, a feeling, an idea, an atmosphere.

Then there is performance. If it involves music then you need some of the 'music', lots of the MUSIC and something else which if you have enough of it means you can dispense with the other two almost altogether. What you're probably listening to is the 'music' mainly, a bit of the MUSIC and none of the something else which you give out but can't receive.

I suspect this might not make sense to anyone but me but I know what I'm talking about, I think.

There is always the other possibility that you are in fact crap and your friends just have crap taste. Don't knock it, just look at the richest performers. :-)

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:57 PM

You just have to put the awful tragedy of sounding like yourself into perspective.

Who would you rather sound like?

For me, the big turning point was getting the mp3 site up, and finally getting the CD out, and realizing that some people actually listen to those tracks more than once!

I'm sure you'd find the same.

Live shows are so different from a regular recording session, where you can take the time to actually achieve the sound that's closest to what you're looking for, that what your live show in a bar sounds like on tape is not a huge deal anyway. That's always an uphill battle. The audience liked it, so it worked fine.

W-O

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:10 PM

Well, those in the thread I've heard sound pretty good to me.

I suspect that believing you are totally wonderful may well be a necessary element in becoming a huge star. But imagine having to be like that inside? (And yes, there probably are some exceptions.)

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:24 PM

Raising some interesting questions, this thread. To be totally frank, I'm sure that, like all performers/artists etc think, everything I do is important and good. Otherwise why the hell would I do it? And, to continue being frank, I think I'm better than other people in what I do, otherwise I'd get a well paid job and let the better musicians than me bang their heads against brick walls. So, given that I think I'm great, why do my recordings sound so shite to me? There is a big contradiction here which I've never managed to get my head round.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:49 PM

Part of it is that you adust to the time and place of a performance intuitively, like your eyes adjust to light, and the tape doen't understand it. Stage acting is excruciatingly reduced when videoed.

   The other thing is you just don't get to be your own admirer. Which pisses me off. Everynow and then I get a boost from something like a new twist, something seems good, but generally I hate everything I do. Not just as an attitude--I have my reasons.

   But the main thing is probably because you're actually good. (Like everything else in life I have a theory about this made from the dust-bunnies in my head.) Everytime a friend tells me about something they're working on, that's going great, and it's really big-time good, it turns out a bit of a disappointment. But when they tell me about their work the way a parent talks about their problematic teenager, as something they hope to influence for the best, but can't quite control, just hoping things turn out okay--I'm usually stunned by the work. Or it usually seems to go that way. So I think you must be good, and not just good, but still going about being good, and not coasting at it.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:00 PM

I suspect guest Fred may have a point. You probably deep down think you're good to some extent or you wouldn't have the nerve to perform (although we've all seen folks who think they're good and aren't but who perform anyway - especially at open mikes and such). But you're probably always looking for ways to perform better - so the "self loathing" you describe when listening to your own performances may just be your natural desire to always to better - it might even be a good thing in moderate doses. After all - if you listened to yourself and only thought how great you were and didn't pay attention to the flaws and mistakes (which others probably don't notice) you'd never improve.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:23 PM

Some great input folks...

Most of you are right, there's no real help to be had, but thanks for the input at least...

Anybody else?

:-)

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

Find somebody worse. Go hear them as needed. When I refinished my floors the little flaws I knew were there just stared at me--I'd never have cared if somebody else did them. It helped when friends had theirs done by pros and showed me--I grinned an evil grin--nice! I said, and I felt better.

Sometimes I can't start painting until I look up some portrait painters on the internet. Their work gives me permission to do mine.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:39 PM

That advice was great, fred Miller, about listening to bad performers. I've just watched Charlotte Church attempting to sing "Bridge over troubled water" on TV and it's cheered me up no end.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:54 PM

It's probably helpful to turn over all control to someone else. One of my problems is that I ALWAYS think I could have done better.

I DON'T have that problem with my leather carving. My main inspirations were Al Stohlman and Al Shelton. (they're both gone now) I learned from the books and articles that these guys wrote....they were considered the finest carvers and artists in the field, and I knew that I could never be as good as either. Now had I taken it up when I was 13 instead of 44, who knows?

With music....I started in my teens, I LOVED it, I had decent natural skills, and if I took (say) the hardest thing Doc Watson ever recorded, I could learn it in a reasonable time.

But I Couldn't SING like a rural musician, 'cause I wasn't. I sounded like a middle class Canadian with a baritone voice who could play darn near anything, but sounded STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT! For a very short time I tried to affect a bit of rural inflection, but oh boy, I've seen musicians who've made careers of that, and I simply don't think it works. The only songs I could bear to listen to me singing were ones that I'd written.....but the old time stuff was what turned my crank (still does).....and maybe I'll never be able to listen without cringing to my versions.

I'm not saying that SOME people haven't assimilated styles that they weren't born into.....Jack Elliot comes to mind, and I've heard Liam Clancy do SOME American things that worked....Hell, Bob Dylan was a very effective Blues singer.....TO ME...but most people HATED it.

Oops, not finished, but my fettucine is!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM

"about listening to bad performers"

I hate to put on airs and say "Oh I'm better than that guy or other..."

I mean, that way maddness lies...

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:40 PM

Personally CH, I think you should beat yourself severely about the head and shoulders with large mace after shoving a flaming broomstick up your ass. If you find your own performance worse than that, than you probably really do suck and your friends are just in fear of the ass-kicking you'll give them if they say so. Otherwise, relax and have one of your famous bran muffins and be assured there is someone a lot worse than you....like me.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:49 PM

Be great when these CDs are ready and we can check out just how bad/good everybody else is.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Maryrrf
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:57 PM

Yes I think listening to bad performers helps to put your own singing in perspective. I even find that listening to GOOD performers with a critical ear helps - the truth is, if you listen closely they DO make mistakes, hit wrong notes, in some cases don't interpret a particular song very well...etc. I'm sure all that stuff stands out to them like a sore thumb but it doesn't to the general public who just aren't listening with the goal of picking out flaws, they just want to enjoy the music. What I'm saying is, if I listen to just about anybody with the aim of picking out errors I find them - just like I find them when I listen to myself. But I only notice them if I'm looking for them.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:33 PM

Greg, bear in mind these CDs were made in many cases from kitchen-table tape recordings, and were mastered by an amateur, however enthusiastic.

So go easy on the judgemental comparisons, wouldja? 'S not what they're for, man!! :>)

Thanks,

A

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:39 PM

only joking amos. I'll love em all. Mine was made right where I'm sitting drinking my hot toddy right now on my crappy old machine. Hey these computer things are clever, can someone make them play tracks automatically when youre reading a message by the appropriate person?

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 08:50 PM

Man, now this ol' hillbilly sounds so *good* that ain't nuthin' gonna change that. I could record into an 8 track car player and sound *great*. People call me up all the time and tell me they heard me here or there and I sounded *super* and... and...

...and...

Oh, hi everyone. I must have nodded off. You won't believe what I was dreamin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 09:21 PM

Now, I didn't mean meaness, at all. I'm not a mean person, and that's the best thing I can honestly say about myself. I'm regularly inspired by people with even less technique than I have, and those people are on the endangered species list, few, proud, a dying race, let us mourn. A moment of silence.

The difference of very-goodness and greatness is a quality of the effort, I believe, entirely. There are better spellers than Shakespeare. What inspires me about my portrait painters is not that I paint so much better, but their cynicism, their absolute disinterest in style... the way the faces look muddy and busy because they give equal emphasis to everything. The coldness of it lets me paint. You have to do something when you hate your own stuff, it's not putting on airs, it's accepting what you have to work with. I actually didn't accept my real, best work, because it was too frigging strange, and not good strange either. I do what I do as a compromise. That's enough of the actual truth for me to say in one day. The subject hits close to home.

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From:
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 09:46 PM

Does time make any difference? I look at some things I wrote comparatively recently, and find it hard to believe I was sober at the time. Makes me want to change my name (MY GOD I LET THAT GET INTO PRINT?). More distant stuff really feels like somebody else' work, and I think, hmm, something going there, kid shows promise.

Adam

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 04:47 PM

The more you listen to your recorded self, the more your ear will adjust to hearing yourself that way at time of performance. That's my experience anyway (which a lot of people I know have found in common with me). Doesn't mean you have to fall in love with the sound of yourself though... (thank gawd!) You still hear the limitations of your voice, technique, talent, etc. But you look out over the crowd (optimistic euphemism) and see that they are having a great time and that's the point. If you just wanted to turn out a perfect recording, stay home and wank in front of the mike for years, overdubbing and punching-in till you get it all perfect, but you'll have missed out on the best part, clanmate. Shit! You know that...

But I know someone who listened to his own indy CD over and over and over for months till he got tired of it and started questioning production decisions, but never his own performance (you know him too, Clint). He recognized his product WAS a product, not HIM. It was a good learning experience for all involved and a damn good time doing it too. And in the end, that was more important, and was what stayed with him years later when he listens now.

But that was a controlled studio creation. Live albums are tough. Not for the faint-o-heart or those without a LOT of recording time under their belt (like me.. I wouldn't try it at this point). So ease up on yourself. You gotta be willing to make a mess if you're gonna take a shit.

What? What the hell was I talking about again? Bye. I gotta go to the bog....

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM

Use more than one square when ya wipe eh Cluin...

:-)

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:40 PM

Seriously speaking for a change, the first time I heard my own music recored and [played back to me was 35 years ago and I was distraught. Imean, how could I sound like *that*.

BUT I think the further one gets into recording, the more one get's used to hearing what one's self sound like. As that process occurs, then we get to distant ourselve from those * I don't sound like that* days. And as that occurs, we get a level of objectivity about our work.

That's my take on it. No, I haven't recorded a "CD" but I have hours and hours of stuff I have written and recorded going back to those early recordings in the 60's.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:38 PM

First, only you know exactly what you wanted to do, so only you catch all the departures from the ideal. Second, I've seen/read more than one interview with some Hollywood actor or other--I think Henry Fonda was one--who said he could not stand to see his own movies on the big screen. So all I can say is, you're not alone.

CC

Subject: RE: Developing Personal Objectivity
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:59 PM

Well, I can say this...

Time away from it certainly helps... So maybe I'll get a vault with a months time lock on it... brng the MD's home from recording and just stuff 'em away for a month... THEN listen to 'em!

:-)