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Please stand up to sing

Orac 25 Nov 02 - 09:29 AM
MMario 25 Nov 02 - 09:38 AM
Orac 25 Nov 02 - 10:01 AM
MMario 25 Nov 02 - 10:06 AM
MMario 25 Nov 02 - 10:12 AM
Orac 25 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM
KingBrilliant 25 Nov 02 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Arkie 25 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM
MMario 25 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM
Joe Offer 25 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,allen woodpecker 25 Nov 02 - 12:12 PM
Pied Piper 25 Nov 02 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 25 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM
JudeL 25 Nov 02 - 06:42 PM
kendall 25 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM
vectis 25 Nov 02 - 07:28 PM
Alice 25 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Chicken Charlie 25 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 25 Nov 02 - 09:50 PM
Art Thieme 25 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM
SINSULL 25 Nov 02 - 10:19 PM
ossonflags 26 Nov 02 - 07:37 AM
My guru always said 26 Nov 02 - 07:45 AM
KingBrilliant 26 Nov 02 - 07:55 AM
Dave Bryant 26 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM
greg stephens 26 Nov 02 - 08:35 AM
Geoff the Duck 26 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM
Burke 26 Nov 02 - 06:40 PM
CapriUni 26 Nov 02 - 11:41 PM
Liz the Squeak 27 Nov 02 - 02:11 AM
Don Firth 27 Nov 02 - 03:37 AM
Liz the Squeak 27 Nov 02 - 06:06 PM
JudeL 27 Nov 02 - 06:33 PM
Harry Basnett 27 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM
Bluesmike 27 Nov 02 - 07:47 PM
John Routledge 27 Nov 02 - 08:05 PM
Boab 28 Nov 02 - 03:28 AM
Dave Bryant 28 Nov 02 - 04:33 AM
mooman 28 Nov 02 - 04:48 AM
Hecate 28 Nov 02 - 06:10 AM
the lemonade lady 28 Nov 02 - 06:16 AM
Dave Bryant 28 Nov 02 - 07:25 AM
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Subject: Please stand up to sing
From: Orac
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:29 AM

How many of you have gone to a singers night and sat at the back to find that no-one got to their feet and you were treated to a sea of backs of heads and didn't even know who was singing ... and the sound was muffled anyway because you were behind them.
Personally I find it very rude if singers don't go to the front and stand and face the audence. You cannot breath properly or project your voice if you are sitting down ... nor can anyone at the back see you.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: MMario
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:38 AM

I've never had trouble projecting from a seated position - and "being seen" is not the point; being heard is the point. My preference would be for a seated position even if I moved to the front - in fact especially if I moved to the front!!!!


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Orac
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:01 AM

It is common curtesey to stand to address any audience. Its no different to going to a wedding and the best man not standing to speak, so I don't agree with you. You may think its ok but its likely that a proportion (maybe not all) of your audience doesn't whether or not your voice is loud enough.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: MMario
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:06 AM

From your own statement it is quite ovbiously not considered common courtesy at the singer's night you attended - nor is rising to address a group as "common" in many circumstances as it used to be.

Business presentations, etc that used to be down standing from a podium many times now will be done seated.

And yes - I have been to several weddings were all the toasts were done from seated positions.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: MMario
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:12 AM

seriously - you say "no -one got to their feet" ; if this is true, then singing seated is quite obviously an established custom for this singer's nite. If this bothers you then it would probably be best to find a different group. If you had a sea of heads in front of you it seems that is does NOT bother the others enough to change or stop attending.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Orac
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:25 AM

I have to say that I would have a dim view of someone that didn't stand at a wedding. I hope you are not siting these people as role models. Having said that its obviously different when the folks are sitting around the edge of a small room and are facing each other anyway. But at a larger venue when everyone is facing the front its a different matter.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:31 AM

Orac - perhaps you need to lead by example. It may be that other people would like to stand up, but they might be waiting for someone else to do it first...
I don't think you can demand that people stand if they don't want to, but you can encourage it.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM

I would think the venue would determine to some degree what would be appropriate. If one is in a sharing session where everyone is seated then sitting when one takes their turn does not seem unacceptable, however when performing or a stage before an audience then something special is owed to the people who have given their time and possible paid a fee to the performance. I am sure that a singer who sits while performing is most comfortable in that position and feels they can do their best, however, when I am in the audience and the performer chooses to sit it sends the message "I am going to sing for my personal enjoyment and if you want to listen go right ahead". The performer who stands sends the message "I am going to work to entertain you". In the days when I did some performing I played dulcimer and always felt somewhat at a disadvantage because I had to sit. I still think sitting puts a performer at a disadvantage in many situations. Some people are able to do this successfully. It would be nice to hear what a body language expert might say about this.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: MMario
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:54 AM

That's projecting quite a bit on the performer, is it not? Face it - 99% of a performers *WORK* in a performance goes on long before they step onto the stage.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:16 AM

I think it depends on the situation and the song, not on courtesy. I've been to singers' sessions in the U.S., the UK, and Ireland - seems the usual practice in most circles in all three countries is to sit - but if the group is large and it might be difficult for people to see, many singers almost naturally choose to stand. In pubs, singers are more likely to stand.
I sit, usually - I find that sitting on the edge of my chair is a good position for singing. Sitting way back in a chair makes it harder to breathe.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: GUEST,allen woodpecker
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:12 PM

I'm quite new to public singing, but not to playing in sessions. When someone stands to sing in a session it looks "arsey" - ooooh eveyone pay attention to me - so I sit on my ass and rely on the song and the singing of it. When on stage (which doesn't happen often with me) you are the focus of attention, and sitting is not an option. However, I'm six foot three so if, like happened last night, I'm performing in a small room full of people sitting on low stools, there's NO WAY I'm gonna stand like a diddy. They all knew what i was there for, they could all hear, and I felt adequately comfortable. Individualism is the key here. Christ Orac, you'll be telling us all to sing with our eyes open next!!! ;-)
p.s. You were great in Blakes Seven, a real smart b*****d, but displaying very little knowledge of folk music to Avon and the crew. Did this interest flourish after the telly work dried up? a.w.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:12 PM

Yawn, Yawn, Yawn.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 05:26 PM

For a singaround or session its fair enough for people to sing from their seat. If customers have PAID for a staged performance, with a guest or as a singers night, then the singer should be at the front (seated or standing) facing the audience.

A cavalier attitude towards the PAYING public is far too common.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: JudeL
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 06:42 PM

For those of you who appear to see the world in black and white , before you condemn someone for sitting please consider that there may be a reason. Sometimes that reason is obvious such as the singer Graham Knight who'se powerful voice surrounds you but who needs sit as he walks with crutches, sometimes the reason is less obvious such as someone with a back injury or low blood pressure or any one of a dozen different reasons. It does also depend on the venue, in some small rooms where everyone is facing each other and there is so little room to stand that to do so would involve disturbing almost ever other person in the room & it's not then apt to make evryone move or wait while you do your prima donna bit. In other venues where most people are standing it's only if you are tall that others can see you.. I know being 4 foot 11 1/2 .. & having heard many jokes along the lines of "stand up, oh sorry you are standing up" hahaha. I guess all I'm saying is that reasons are not always apparent and don't be so quick to believe the worst of people.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: kendall
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM

I'm not comfortable standing up like a lecturer, so, I sit on a high stool. That way, I can be comfortable, have better control over the guitar, and the people in the back row can see/hear.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: vectis
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:28 PM

I stand to sing most of the time because I can breathe better that way. I don't necessarily go to the front though. The song counts more than the singer.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Alice
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM

Singing at a session sometimes I sit, sometimes I stand, and, when the room was crowded and noisy, I even STOOD ON A CHAIR and sang so everyone could see that a song was being sung. (Besides, I am only 5 foot 2 inches tall.)

Alice


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM

Rude, schmude. Depends on the instrument--piano, both dulcimers, or even a heavy resonator banjo. As to projecting, my philosophy is to sing to the mic and let that do the heavy lifting. Have you tried a mirror on the ceiling?

CC


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:50 PM

In the words of an old-timer... didn't we just discuss this a week or so ago?

Different strokes for different folks.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM

My old uncle had a toilet seat that played the Star Spangled Banner every time someone sat down. They were always mopping that floor.

Art


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:19 PM

Now rude would be lying in bed and singing - right Joe?


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: ossonflags
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:37 AM

its not "arsy " and "look at me"to stand to sing.It's all to do with breathing,projection and most of all what you feel comfortable with.


Most of the time I stand,sometimes sit down and occasionally lie down but that depends how much drink I have partaken!!


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: My guru always said
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:45 AM

Thanks Jude, for highlighting that some of us have problems with standing! Between my bad back & my nerves I'm sure I'd fall over if I tried standing & singing at the same time (gracefully of course!) *G*


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:55 AM

Those who may appear arsy when standing would probably give the same impression if seated. Now those of a nervous disposition will be unable to sing at all - they'll be too worried about being seated & discourteous or standing & arsy. Perhaps they'll find some in-between compromise crouch...


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM

I think that standing/sitting depends on a whole number of factors.

Probably the first is the song which you are going to perform. Some songs (esp Music Hall) need you to stand because they need the odd bit of gesticulation etc. In some songs, standing up helps you to have some control over the timing and sometimes dynamics of the chorus.

Then there are the acoustics of the room. If they are poor, it makes sense to stand because your singing will project better and the sound will be produced higher from the floor where it will carry better.

Finally a lot depends on the way that the session is organised. If you are all sitting doround in a circle, then there is no problem with singing sitting down. If people are situated all over the place (ie in a pub bar) then it is probably best to stand up and move into view. Hint: it is much easier to sing if you can get a wall or even better a corner behind you - it helps to reflect a bit of your singing and thus provides a sort of foldback - it also means that you haven't got anyone talking or other noise from behind you. Unlike golf it is quite permissable to "improve your position".

Like Kendall, I always prefer to use a barstool if there is one available - that way I get the best of both worlds - only trouble is that sometimes I have to reach a long way down for my beer !


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:35 AM

The main factor that applies to me is whether I'm capable of standing up.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:10 AM

Breathing and Projection are controlled by good posture, which if sat correctly can be as good as when stood upright. Bad slumped posture when standing also impedes projection. People who cannot be heard when sitting down are often inaudiable when standing. Nervous singers will often be put off singing if forced to stand in front of an audience.
Personally in a singaround I prefer to sit where I am, unless I am doing something which needs a visual performance, eg comic songs.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Burke
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:40 PM

The most recent performance I went to was a duo who sat, but were on a stage. It was really nice because with the size of the venue, it had a nice, homey, we're all participating feeling.

If everyone was facing the same way with the singer in front, it sounds like it was a performance situation. Seems like they needed a a stage or small platform, a stool, or to stand so their voices could project.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: CapriUni
Date: 26 Nov 02 - 11:41 PM

Don't mean to sound snippy, Orac...

But... based on what you've said here, it would appear that you don't think people who use wheelchairs should sing in public at all...

I'm sure you don't mean that!


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 02:11 AM

If you are having a problem with hearing people at the front who remain seated to sing, then maybe you should get there earlier and get a seat nearer the front.

Alternately, make a polite suggestion to the organiser that they rearrange the room so that everyone is facing into the centre, rather than sitting in a 'concert' setting.

If you are worried that people are doing damage to their backs, chests and diaphragms by singing in the hunched position, then I suggest you get a job as a risk assessor or an ortheopaedic consultant.

However, it is possible to sing properly and project whilst sitting, if you ever trained as an opera/stage singer you would be made to sing in varying positions including upside down. My favourite has to be on my back, over the arm of the couch with someone on my lap and my head on the floor.

I prefer sitting because it makes it less obvious that I have severe CRS and have to use a book. I've also had the blood pressure problems where I stood up to sing and fell over. Even more embarassing than not being heard!

Before you bitch at every seated singer, have a look at your own postiion first.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 03:37 AM

Here's a clue, Orac. I have been singing--in public--for fifty years. I have sung long engagements in clubs and coffeehouses, I have sung concerts all over the Pacific Northwest, California, and Canada, I have sung at folk festivals and hootenannies, and I've been on television a number of times (I had my own show in 1959). For much of my life I made my living by singing and playing the guitar. All sitting down. Due to polio at the age of two, I have walked with crutches all my life. No problem with breath support. My voice is big, and it projects.

I'm now 71 years old. Because my shoulders are worn out from a lifetime of walking with crutches, I sit in a wheelchair now when I sing. My voice is still big because I take care of it. And I have a singing engagement ten days from now.

Whether you sing standing up, sitting down, or hanging by your toes from the chandelier makes not difference. It's the songs that matter.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:06 PM

Ooh, Don... visions of you hanging from the chandelier.. do you do it in the Batman suit or the flying goggles with the wet celery??

LTS


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: JudeL
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 06:33 PM

Question is Don what else do you do hanging from the chandelier? BTW one singer at Wittlebury song and ale this year managed to keep singing a song while being grabbed by 4 fellas who swung him back and forth. The song.... "He flies through the air with the greatest of ease, that daring young man on the flying trapeze"   ... and he did!


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM

Wish more people would stand up and sing and not sit with their noses buried in books of lyrics.....I've been here before, methinks.......


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Bluesmike
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 07:47 PM

It's technically possible to carry a tune while swinging upside down from a flying trapese although I think the real point is whether or not you can perform well.
I can't think of a single performer able to trul;y capture an audience and generate real energy without using the whole stage.
Stand up and be counted.
Michael


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: John Routledge
Date: 27 Nov 02 - 08:05 PM

I always sang standing up. Nowadays if there is a trace of smoke in the room I will sing sitting down making sure my upper body is open.
It is too much of a shock to the system to stand up and take a deep breath of the higher concentrations of smoke found higher in rooms.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Boab
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:28 AM

Some o' us auld yins hae bother staundin up tae breathe!


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 04:33 AM

When I sing some songs ("Sweeney Todd", "I live in Trafalgar Square", "Landlord Fill the Flowing Bowl" etc) I use the whole room !


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: mooman
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 04:48 AM

"Please stand up"

"No I'd rather sit down and sing if you don't mind...I'm more at ease that way..."

"Will you please sit down and sing...we feel you're overpowering us..."

"No...if you don't mind I'd rather stand...I can breath and sing more easily that way..."

Seems to me that this is a subject where audiences need to respect the style of the singer and where the singer should stick to what's most natural for them. That way the song is likely to come out better.

P.S. I've seem some "greats" from different genres who have sung awesomely seated!

mooman


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Hecate
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:10 AM

I think this is an issue to take up with whoever lays out the venue - if the room is set up like a theatre, people should be ASKED to go up front and do their thing, (That way, they know that's what theya er supposed to do.) if its supposed to be informal and in the round, the layout should facilitate that. Don't blame the singers, take it up with the organiser. (Being an organiser, I actually find it very helpful if people tell me what is and isn't working with the layout and venue, I am not omnsicient and need to know what other people think, I am probably not alone in this.)


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 06:16 AM

I like to be told when it's my turn. I hate sessions when one has to leap in the gap and suffer the embarrasment of someone doing it at the same time. Do I then stand up? There could be an awful lot of bobbing up and down! We usually sit in a circle around the room so then it's obvious who is singing.


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Subject: RE: Please stand up to sing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:25 AM

I think that the best way for running a singaround is the token (Anchor Middle Bar - Twig) system. It can be a bit distracting in the middle of a song, if you've got half a dozen other singers all wanting it next though.


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