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A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers
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Subject: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,iggy folk Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:32 PM I'm afraid circumstances have turned me into one of those sometimes maligned guests, but I've actually been around Mudcat for quite a while and was an active member. Long enough to remember when music threads actually had more than one or two informed posters. Long enough to remember when non music discussions really were just that rather than silly pointless attempts at humour or just tedious one sided political rants. The recent spate of 'what have the****done for us'. endless silly 'Hull' threads and obvious Middle East shit disturbing is what has made me finally speak up. I remember the flame wars of two or three years ago, and I remember Oldtimers like Joe Offer, MMario, Art Theime and even the bizarre misanthrope Gargoyle trying to get the focus off endless BS chatter and back to music. Obviously it didn't work, and I wonder if they've simply given up. It really feels like this once fascinating site is in complete freefall at the moment and it makes me sad. So here's a bit of a challenge and a simple question for the members who've been here for a few years. I know you've made friends here and you don't want to rock the boat but are you happy with the way Mudcat currently is? Are you comfortable enough to come in under the name you normally post with and give your opinion? For all I know this message will be misinterpreted as being a flame and be removed before anyone has a chance to see it. I hope not because I'm sincere but if it is then I guess I've gotten my answer. I live in an area where there are several Mudcatters (not Hull!) but far fewer post now than did a couple of years ago. I'm not sure why they left but I do know that they loved folk music. I haven't labeled this BS because I think it does deal with music and I hope my thoughts don't get shot down too quickly by the first people to respond. And to Joe Offer et al, I really hope you haven't given up trying to make this site vital. iggy |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:36 PM Iggy, I believe that you are sincere. But this stuff is cyclical. There are still plenty of great music posts, and the same old rule applies. Just don't jump in where you aren't interested. All you have done here is ignite the same old argument. Art still posts regularly to what he wants, as do many others. This isn't a music site. It is a site about music and the issues that surround it, as well as a place where we discuss whatever. There are the inane hangers on who don't have much of value, but they come and go as they tire of their own silliness. Glad to see you here again. Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Sorcha Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:47 PM No, I am not too happy just now, mostly because of the "What Has" copycat threads, but Mick is correct, it does seem to be cylical. They will get tired of it eventually, I hope. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:48 PM Hi, iggy: Being a new-timer, I can't give the perspective that you're looking for. But, just being on a year, I've lived through the Flame Wars, and now the boring What Has Your Mother-in-Law Done For You (don't start it, please!)threads and the threads with 9 in them. I notice that they proliferate, while some music threads just roll off the table, unnoticed. As an example, nutty posted the words to a wonderful song, at my request. It was so far down the list, lost in the What Has... threads, that I didn't even see it until it was brought to my attention, and I had to pull it up from the 3 day setting. The last I saw it, it had a grand total of 2 responses. Counting mine. I suspect that there's a natural cycle that most people go through here on Mudcat. The initial excitement (which must have been far higher when Mudcat first started) simmers down to a mild addiction. Mudchat has kicked everything into high gear for me again, and I am having a great time getting to know people who have just been a paragraph on an occasional thread. I think that it's natural that the lyric requests would taper off, as more and more of them have been answered. I've also noticed rather grumpy comments from the old-timers when someone starts a thread, not realizing that the topic has already been discussed. There are times when I hear "We've alreaddddyyyyy discussed that..." Well, excuuuuuuuuuuse me. I think the posting of related, earlier threads is a great addition to Mudcat (thank you, Max and company.) It offers the chance to go back to previous discussions for those who are interested. I rarely am, in honesty... If I was here to read old discussions, Max could just publish transcripts and I could read them in my recliner. Mudcat is a living, changing organism. It's not going to be what it was, and God knows (I think) where it's going. At times it will be irritating as Hell, and at times it will be exciting. I'm just thankful to Max that I can come along for the ride. I don't consider this a "flame," at all. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:53 PM Agreed, Jerry. As an old timer who occasionally gets grumpy and regrets it later, I think you are spot on. We need to remind ourselves sometimes that the key to a site staying vital is to be welcoming to new folks and be helpful. Sometimes it is necessary to speak truth as one sees it, but for the most part just ignore. I don't even open the inane "what has" threads. I think a might have read or posted in the first one, but haven't been back since. Usually when I see Shatner, Hull, or Punch the Horse, I just don't open them. I will wait till I get to Hull to see what all the Hull-aballoo is about. When you coming to Michigan? Would love to sing with you. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:57 PM I have bitten my tongue for the most part about the BS currently waxing high on the threads, although I prefer a more refined brand of BS myself, because one of the things I have MOST benefited from on this site is the benevolent tolerance of most of its members -- and I have barely deserved it. So i try to give as good as I get, although I do not alweays succeed! :>) Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: khandu Date: 25 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM Iggy, I agree with Mick. Yeah, some of the redundancy gets worn, and there seems always to be the political crap. There are members who respond only to musical threads; those who respond to music and BS (like myself), and there are those who respond only to BS. And, at times, there does seem to be more BS than anything. But, just about every time I check in, there are quite a few interesting musical threads. I have been here for a couple of years. In fact, when I first started becoming a regular, there was quite a Mudcat storm in progress. But, in the midst of the storm (and those that have followed) I found enough sunshine to keep me coming again and again. It ain't perfect here, it will never be, and at times, it is less perfect than at other times. But, winds blow, and when the dust settles, there is still much about Mudcat that is worthy of our returning! khandu |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM For what it;s worth Iggy, I reckion you are right. There is a lot of shit around here at the minute, there is quite a few copycat threads about, and too much about Hull, but don't forget that most of the "Hull" threads were started by people not from Hull.I reckon the others are right though, when they say it will soon get make to normal, don't forget though, that there is a few things that you can do to help, you can post lyrics, if you don't have any to hand then just write a song and post it, you can refresh good music threads and don't forget there is loads of good information in the archives, for example you could type in title of your favourite songs and find out the history, also have a look at the links section , there is loads of good stuff there.john |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Tinker Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:05 PM Iggy, your post was much to well thought out to be flaming. I've been around for a couple of years now and I'm not much of a musician or scholar (though I love both). The cycles come and go. My patience wears thin somedays with nonsense, but if I find myself irritated I usually try to filter the BS for a day or two. Despite my best intensions I've been sucked in to the flames a time or two... But when I needed to update a workshhop at the last minute last year. Rick and Jerry were there to give me permission to pass out lyric sheets and use their songs. ( Sorry I never got back to you Jerry... June and Kids is a bad combination) Several folks made a point at the end of the session to come up and say it was just what they needed. The community is still here... it's just got a bigger playground some days.. Kathy |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bob Bolton Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:06 PM G'day IggyFolk, Mick, Sorcha and Jerry, I know it looks depressing to see all those aptly titled BS threads ... but, as often is said - you don't have to read them! Conversely, I decided to throw up a thread about the underlying Germanic links in the expression - and related song - "Waltzing Matilda. I addressed it to Wolgang - after considering simply PMing him on the subject - then deciding; "No ... let's see what the other 'Catters may have! What happened? Despite Wolgang himself actually being away for the weekend, a lot of other 'Catters popped straight in and provided links, personal recollections and linguistic observations ... and my thank you, posted just now, brought the thread to 17 postings (all helpful!) in 4 or 5 days. How can I complain that the MudCat is not working ... marvellously? Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: NicoleC Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:12 PM Oh, I post on the BS threads a lot. I don't have much musical wisdom to share, but that doesn't mean I don't read the music threads and learn a lot from them. I personally wouldn't stick around if I could only watch. Of the music thread questions I've posted, sometimes I get amazing, wonderful responses. Other times the threads are ignored. The great responses are certainly worth the empty ones. You know, I don't think I've felt the urge to open a "Hull" thread yet. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Justa Picker Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:18 PM The forum has become a chat place and a community. Music runs through it but often some of the best musical contributions are rendered incidental by the BS crowding it off the page. One of the most interesting and telling new features in the upgraded version of Mudcat, are not the improved bells and whistles but rather, the conspicuoulsly absent words of "A Magazine Dedicated To Folk and Blues Music" at the top of the page. That Kids...tells the story. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Art Thieme Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:20 PM Aye, and it's a hull of a good place to hang out is this Mudcat--in spite of our, if we are not careful, being in danger of steppin' in sumthin' squishy and negatively aromatic. I'm still lurking and waiting, Gollum-like, crouching in the shadows for my precious music threads to rear their pretty heads once again when, as the proverbs all tell us, what goes around comes around yet again. In the meantime, what will be, will be. As Leadbelly said in his fine song, "Relax Your Mind". Art Thieme There you go, Art. Love, Your Friendly Neighborhood Mudelf |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: kendall Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:22 PM I agree to a point. There are way too many inane threads that take up space, but, I just skip over them. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: toadfrog Date: 25 Nov 02 - 10:58 PM Iggy: I'm not an "old timer." Around for just less than 2 years. For what its worth, I agree. It is v. difficult to "ignore" the BS, when there are 30-40 such threads every day, and by no means all the BS threads are labeled as such. So that you cannot really pick around it, unless you spend 3-4 hours on line every day, which those of us who work can't do. The types of BS do run in cycles; one thing is in fashion, then another. Why that should be comforting I couldn't say. But can be done about it? Preach abstinence? Just Say No? I can't even stop myself from adding to the political threads. Can't bear to let the bad guys have the last word. So? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: momnopp Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:00 PM I LOVE MUDCAT It's a living, breathing entity as mentioned above. I can stay away from the threads for months and months, and when I come back, there's always a community of generous, fun, witty, knowledgeable, interesting, goofy, wise and loving people with interesting points of view here to share with. I wouldn't have it any other way, personally. I've recently been reminded that ". . .all polishing takes place because of friction. . ." Peace, JudyO |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bassic Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:01 PM Ok, I suppose I had better say "good bye" to my friends, get an up to date copy of the Hull telephone directory and let the music take care of itself. I just get synical when people want to suck the life out of things. Sorry to have troubled you all. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bassic Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:03 PM Folk music eliteist? I know a thread about that! (Rainbow philosopy) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bill D Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:11 PM I made a plea or two for fewer "what have they done for us" threads, but obviously the thrill is not quite gone yet. The first couple were 'kinda' cute, but sheeeesh! I just hope the 'cycles' we all know exist aren't as long as the global warming & cooling cycles, or Joe Offer will be discovered 30,000 years from now in a block of ice with his finger on the 'edit' button...or is that the 'destruct' button? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:12 PM I've been here a while and consider myself one of the "old-timers". I am happy enough with the Mudcat as it sits because there are threads which are about the music. (Thanks to the filter, I don't see the BS threads at all!). The reason is that Mudcat (for me) isn't about what it WAS, but what it IS at the time. There are lots of new music threads every day, and thanks to people like Masato, I get to learn new things, just about every day.
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:19 PM am I an oldtimer? I've been around for s few years now, and I've seen the cycles. It seems to me this current cycle is long and particularly virulent - but I do agree that the sh*t comes and goes. Old folks fade, some leave - new ones come along; they love the music resource, enjoy a thread or two and then get involved (or don;t) in what I consider junk threads. I haven't bothered to look at the "what's your mama done for me lately" threads. Nor do I look at most threads - but I come her everyday and read the music threads - I occasionally respond - BUT I've started doing something that I strongly suspect other old timers do; when I have a music question in mind, the first thing I do is read the old threads. I probably spend as much time doing that as I do reading new ones. I occasionally bring the old threads back up, with a new comment or two. It's true there isn;t always good stuff being discussed (at least good stuff that I care about)- but there's been good stuff talked about here over they years, and it's only a few keystrokes away! I also dig a lot in the DT. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:24 PM yeah - the other thing that I love about this place is, when you have a new music question ... and you post it - you'll get great answers, quickly and usually with some variety. It true, that the music threads very often die quickly - but maybe that's because they get answered quickly. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:27 PM Iggy - thank you!!!! you sometimes never meet a kindred soul. It is a perplexing problem....one that, no doubt...Max, Joe, Dick and Susan have wrestled with. Is it a "law of nature" that we all MUST return to the least common denominator.? How to keep a focus...AND allow free - public access? As a right-wing (beyond Ghengis Kong) conservative, it was the libertarian aspects that drew me into Folk Music dialogue....good Lord knows, descent folk discussion is few and far between....and I hate splitting hairs within a quadrant....when one is desperate for a rant....and all in a thread are your peers. IMHO...The MudCat Cafe is one of the MOST PECULIAR micro-cosums of inter-net communities on the web, today, 02/25/02. When I jumped in - mid -90's the net was still an exclusive world of FTPers...and 300baud was hot stuff. Sooo...I don't know... I like some (05% of the BS) and I post to them. If there is one thing I have deffinately learned at the MudCat...it is ...
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:33 PM I never even looked at what the filters can do ... I just choose what to look at and then I choose what I will respond to. I have my own filter. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:35 PM yep, fellow Beef Brother, it is called eyes, ears and a brain. We going to ramble? Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:36 PM We've* always thought that free expression is very important at Mudcat, and we do what we can to preserve that freedom of expression. We do feel bound to delete messages and thread that are obviously posted in an attempt to hurt somebody, or to sell something that has nothing to do with folk music. We encourage people to express their own opinions on any subject, but we will delete lengthy non-music copy-paste entries when we see them - expecially if the piece can be found elsewhere on the Internet (but please DO post the text of most music items you find, making sure to include attribution). We rename and sometimes reorganize threads to make it easier for people to find things, but we're not about to interfere with the general freedom that people enjoy here. On the other hand, we reserve the right to do what we think we ought to do, but we promise to listen to complaints from people who don't like the way we do it. No, we're not going to do anything to stop the bullshit threads, although I have to say that I personally hate the current spate of "done for" threads and all the other unimaginative copycat threads (and yes, I sometimes combine them when they get out of hand). I also am personally sick and tired of the narcissistic PEL campaign. While I'm at it, let me say I personally see no value in birthday threads when we have so many Mudcat bithdays that greetings become Spam. Note that I use the word "personally" because I want to emphasize that although I have a job here, I'm also entitled to a personal opinion. And no, I'm not happy with the preponderance of bullshit I've seen at Mudcat at the last week. If you're not happy with a stupid thread, why not send a personal message to the person who started it, and tell him or her how stupid you think they are? Reasonable personal messages are usually far more effective than flame wars. What some of us "oldtimers" try to do is encourage music - not control the bullshit. The origins and DTStudy threads are extraordinary - take a look here to find a treasure trove of music threads. Take a look here (click) to see what's happening to Mudcat MIDIs. So there's still a lot of good stuff happening. I still spend as much as 40 hours a week on the music end of Mudcat, and I'd guess people like Malcolm and Masato and MMario spend near that amount. the take a look at Jerry R's Gospel Workshop to see what some of our newcomers have done. We're still trying to do our best, but we have a variety of needs and interests to serve. -Joe Offer-
I deleted a thread the other day because it turned into a flamefest, but the original post had some worthwhile ideas. I think I'll post it here.
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM Hmmmmm, howdy Iggy. Nope this is hardly a flame, but I know what you mean about gettin' shot down early. I've seen it happen....all depends who the first couple of folks are who see a thread. Some folks always seem to want to tell others what's appropriate and what isn't. Somebody once called them "Mudcat gatekeepers". But you know what? The best way to foil them is to have several of those "Mudcat Old Timers" that you referred to, come in first....part of the "inner clique" so to speak, Ha Ha! So far not ONE anonymous Nasty, right? Does that tell you something? What it tells me is that there may be a LOT of folks who share your concerns (I do, but I ain't gonna lose any sleep over it) I've been here for four years, and the reason I come here now is TOTALLY different than the reason I came here in '99. Then it was for musical discussions, seriously good writing in Political threads, and some absolutely WICKED humour now and then. I come here now because many of these folks ARE my friends, and some are incredibly good friends. It's nice to be in contact with them. Plus....on occasion some of the "old stuff" shows up. Oh, and if you don't think "newbies" like Gerry Rasmussen and Harvey Andrews, and about a dozen other articulate knowledgable folkies counter-act the tiresome "What Have The.....Shatner and Hull" threads, I think you're wrong. Mudcat COULD have stayed pretty much as it was a few years ago.....but for that to happen, One person (not even a committee) would have had to seriously edit threads and remove "DUMB" or "WRONG" opinions, and of course BANISH people who were not really up on folk music. Max, the person who's playground this is, said on a number of occasions that we'd have to "Police Ourselves". Well....be honest with yourself Iggy, can you EVER imagine 'self-policing' resulting in a "disciplined group" for any length of time? Not a chance in the world. It results in a kind of fascinating Anarchy....and that's Mudcat. Trust me, I don't mean to be rude here, but you've got to have a reasonably thick skin now on Mudcat......and I know, I know, it wasn't as neccessary, back a few years ago. But a few years ago, FAR fewer people even KNEW about Mudcat....and now...I meet Catters at EVERY GIG I PLAY....plus I constantly talk to people who say they READ IT. So this may not be what you want to hear from one of the "old timers", but "Change cannot be stopped", not by Joe Offer, Mario, Art, etc...or by you or me. If you want absolute proof of this, read ANY thread about a Jam session without hard and fast rules. The music becomes more and more general, and eventually the originals leave (usually in a huff) and start another one. Besides TWO knowledgeable people in a thread are better than NO discussion at all....and maybe it's YOU that has to keep re-freshing that thread so that it DOESN'T get buried. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:08 AM Jeezus Murphy! I left out Masato as one of the "Newbies" who's a dynamite Catter......he's gotta be worth about a hundred idiotic threads. However.....lemme say one more thing. When I started writing my two cents worth, there were about 17 posts and now there's over twenty five........still no flamers, right? You ain't alone in your concerns, so don't complain, contribute. (I'm smiling when I say this by the way) Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 02 - 12:31 AM Rick - I don't know how it goes with "web-friends"...but with dear face-to-face friends...we have common "spats."
I cherish - your's and mine's - ancient history - discussiion of the 1,4,5 aka I,IV,V and the permutations of augmented and diminished....I am sad that the honorable Mr. BSeed (who I now also consider a MC"friend" and sincerely miss) was caught between our dueling styles.
I have LEARNED far MORE from the MC than I have ever given back...it has led me into exploring new instruments (home-made) new styles, (blues progressions) new "friends" (I'm terrified to meet most - face to face) and new pedagogical approaches.
In short, my life and music has been enriched through the DT/MC.
IGGY - You have, a straight forward approach.... and have attacked what I attempted through vitrol and surreptuous violence....in retrospect......perhaps the Max way is best....
Leave them alone and they'll go home...wagging their tales behind them.
On the other hand....can't there be a "little Irish type snug in the corner of the cafe" for those of us who desire a more academic discussion ... something a little more on a blue note?"
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Amos Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:07 AM Gargoyle, that's the best post I have seen you write. A |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Mark Clark Date: 26 Nov 02 - 01:32 AM iggy, Add me to the list of folks who doesn't see your thread as a flame. I started lurking here in ’97 and began posting in April of ’98 but somehow never thought of myself as a Mudcat “oldtimer.” I don't get upset about the non-music threads because, for the most part, I never read them. I don't use the BS filter, I just read the thread titles. If they look suspicious or make no sense, I never open them. I know that if any of them actually has useful content I'll see it someday when I'm doing a search that pulls it up. Besides the DT, there is an enormous amount of musical information, history, folklore and songs here. The value of the actual information in these threads is inestimable. I try to see myself as just trying to help make that archive as useful a resource as we as a group can make it. I get sucked in once in a while, mostly on days when I've forgotten Dirty Harry's wonderful line “Opinions are like assholes… everybody's got one.” Mostly I try to remind myself that, even though my opinions are always well-reasoned and insightful <g>, most folks who post their opinions just like seeing them displayed somewhere, they really aren't going to read much less consider mine. Still, were I jamming with friends we'd still be inserting non-musical banter between songs. If we like someone's music, we don't just leave it at that, we often want to know more about that person. What experience has brought the performer to this point in his ability to select and perform folk material? What process brought the performer to this particular place and time. What other aspects of this individual might I find worthwhile? How am I to respond to the sense of community? I think these are some of the same questions that prompt many of the BS threads and off-topic discussions. And even though I don't join in very much of the chit-chat, I still hope, one day, to be able to join many of the folks here face-to-face so we can play music and BS in real time and 3-D. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:05 AM It is cyclical, but this is, imo, one of the best discussions of this type we've ever had about it. Thanks, iggy. It has been getting thick around here. Joe, thanks for pointing out the Song Origins thread. I am really proud of what George Seto, Dicho, and all of the others who contributed to that have done. It was my pleasure to compile it all and I love the way Jeff has it set up now. It is so easy to use. For some really good music related threads which haven't received much attention, please see Behind a Thanksgiving Ode; Song Title Index Resource; and, Hellhounds on my trail in which Masato scores again, answering a query from 1999! I do miss the story writing talents of several Mudcatters including PeterT, LeeJ, and JenEllen. kat |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: katlaughing Date: 26 Nov 02 - 02:11 AM Forgot to mention this one which has fallen off: any songs about Cannonball Baker?. My dad would like to know. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: KingBrilliant Date: 26 Nov 02 - 05:53 AM Its still worth looking for the gem threads - but it ain't what it was.... Having said that, there are some people here that I really like - and some that I hugely respect. I'd prefer more music and much much less BS - but since I'm not the boss then I'll have to take the rough with the smooth. Kris |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: mooman Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:16 AM Yes there is way too much BS at the moment and I tend to agree with much of what Mickus Maximus has said. Like Gargoyle, I have learnt a huge amount from the Mudcat and have been in the happy position of having met many dozens of Mudcatters in real life. I hope that, on occasion, I have been able to contribute also a little of value. In fact I'd like to do a "Bill Sables" and meet many more perhaps on the USA/Canada side of the pond. I've been guilty myself of posting to the odd BS I should have ignored but, all in all, I think Max, Joe and Jeff run a great site here and, all things considered, I think we do quite well. Best to all, mooman |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: greg stephens Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:21 AM Well I'm a newbie. I guess I come into both categories, I do plenty of BShitting(though I try to keep it in the area of vaguely folk-related topics...cultural customs, place name etymology, that sort of thing). i actually dont mind the proliferation of "what has Andorra done for us" stuff...it gives a very interesting perspective on what people think of foreign countries. I also dont mind a lot of the Hull stuff, it gives a very accurate portrait of how the folk-scene ticks in one small area of the world. Though it would obviously become impossible to cope with if the inhabitants of evry other town in the world did it as well! But as well as BShitting, I've contributed to a million music threads, and have managed to answer quite a lot questions, even though I havent got a computer and cant do clickies. So to an oldtimer I am probably 50/50 between "one of those people who are destroying Mudcat" and "someone making an intelligent contribution to Mudcat's original purpose". In fact, probably just like everyone else. And on a personal level, I would say, as I have often done, I deeply admire the scholarship of the likes of Masato and Malcolm Douglas, but I'm equally grateful for the wisdom of of the McGraths and Amos's, and the humour of the John from Hull9. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Banjer Date: 26 Nov 02 - 06:37 AM I've been around for a fwe years and just the fact that one can be considered an 'Old Timer' means that they have the facilities needed to survive all the past flame wars and BS that has gone on. I think the reason I have survived is because I believe that variety is the spice of life. There have been times that I have just wanted to rip the 'Cat of my Favorites list, but someting just keeps drawing me. Like has already been mentioned, this is a very cyclical atmosphere. As long as one understands and can tolerate it, there shouldn't be any problem. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Ritchie Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:28 AM Once a boy always a boy .... every time I come on to Mudcat it's like the first time ... it's like waiting for the release of your favourite artistes new record ...what will be there ? will I like it ? lot's of times I look at the names of the repliers (rather like session men) if I like the look of or recognise some good ones then I carry on. Just to 'bummer it up a bit' I'm listening to Chris Rea's new release 'stony Road' for the third time ...the first and second time it was 'mmm ?? not sure' now...it's like the Mudcat... it's getting better rather like this thread, more blues than folk....take that anyway you want. love to all and thank you. Ritchie |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: KingBrilliant Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:40 AM And what is going on with the new "discuss folk here" and "discuss blues here" type threads? Isn't that what the whole site is supposed to be? Are they meant to be satirical or what? (I think I must be missing the point somewhere). |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:43 AM A few days ago, I posted a snotty-assed comment to one of the "What Have" threads and then came back and explained myself, becausw the guy who started that thread, BWL (Bruce) was doing something which was frankly in the tradition of the 'Cat. Here's the second post: Subject: RE: BS: What has ______ done for us? From: catspaw49 - PM Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:26 PM I don't straddle possums Bruce......I blow up their ass. Just ask Cleigh O'Possum!!! And don't think twice about this thread as it's in the best tradition of the 'Cat. The place is quite cyclical and we really get lost in these inane threads every once in awhile where one or two is entertaining but then they proliferate into the most simpleass shit in the world. Eventually someone comes along with a topper (like this one) which ends it for awhile. About 4 years ago we were going through a bunch of things which started, "What Does a Mudcatter___________" or "What Kind of ________Does a Mudcatter Use." Like this last batch, at first, a few were cute, but pretty soon we're down to asking about deodorant. With that one, Art Thieme had had it with them and started one called "What Kind of Condom Does a Mudcatter Use" as a topper to the whole thing. Well it ended the others, but it became a wildly succesful thread, much to Art's chagrin....so we never let him forget it. Yeah, this one is in the best traditions of Mudcat......... So yeah, as I've often said it's cyclical, which most agree with on this thread. I have noticed too though that I respond far less than I used to do. Like Amos alluded to above, sometimes the BS has lately become just too dumbass, even for me. When the BS filter started I think it was almost like a license to some to get reall stupid. The arguments used to be BS versus Music, but now it seems more like BS versus inane drivel. But then again, so what? Even this shall pass I think. We used to have some fun writing projects in the tavern threads and the like and though many of us loved them, I know they were a pain in the ass to many others. Jerry Rasmussen.....I'm sorry if I have ever been one to say "we already talked about ____" as that has never been my intent. Often, and especially on instrument and music threads, I have said most of what little I have to say before, often several times, so I try to link back old threads. Never let that stifle new conversation, it's just an explanation as to why I sometimes am bored with the place.....because it IS cyclical in ALL elements, not just BS. Good topic here Iggy, and a well reasoned discussion. try to hang, it will change and go around again, hopefully at a higher level, but that's up to us. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Big Mick Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:49 AM Hell, I remember when Garg, in his own inimitable style, used to post stuff that good all the time. He was the resident curmudgeon, and very knowledgeable. Great post, Garg. Mark Clark hits it spot on. I agree MOST of the time with his comments (hahaha....you know where we disagree, Mark) and it is folks like him that have kept me coming back over the years. And, of course, my partnership in Patterson, Swan, Fielding and Lane, Layabouts at Large and for hire. Oh......and being half of the fabled Beef Brothers. The wheel turns........... Mick |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Rapparee Date: 26 Nov 02 - 07:53 AM I'm a true newbie here, very much so, having been around less than a month. I found the 'Cat when I was looking for lyrics; I posted a request and voila! I was helped. I think that the first BS I posted to was "10 Obscure Facts...," which was interesting. I then posted a verse or two from "I was born about 10,000 years ago" to the thread about "10 untrue facts...," and was surprised that no one caught it. I have found the people here to be decent, caring, knowledgable sorts and I look forward to discovering them in person. Mike |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:02 AM I'm with most of the above, particularly Greg, who I think started posting about the same time as me. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a little BS, other times not, and I can run my own filtering system as to what kind of BS I read, but the real richness of The Mudcat lies in the music threads and the general helpfulness of the folks round here. Having said that, I'd take exception to Joe's reference to the PEL debate as 'narcissistic'. As you've made plain elsewhere, Joe, you don't understand the problem. Those of us who live and make music in England, particularly in pubs, do. Clearly The Mudcat is a vital centre for the dissemination of relevant information to musicians and dancers in this country, and the PEL debate should not have been dragged into a discussion about BS. That's my thruppence ha'penny. BJ |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:09 AM Bullfrog, that's a good point. I think the PEL threads have been excellent examples of other things Mudcat can do. Although they don't affect us here, I have read them with interest and made the occasional comment or asked a question or two. That stuff is definitely not BS! KRIS (KB)--- Those threads you mention I think are John from Hull's way of trying to keep the heat off about the proliferation of Hull threads, A lot of folks have bitched at him and the threads and I think he might be just saying, "Okay, you want to talk about whatever, then start a thread on it." I dunno'....At first look, I thought they were stupid too, but I think he's trying to make a point perhaps......or maybe they are just stupid! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: MMario Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:13 AM It's a little wierd to be considered an "oldtimer" - In many ways I still feel like one of the new kids in the neighborhood. I am a musical ignoramus - believe me - with a cumpulsion to sing - and a job which ties me to a phone and computer - mostly time spent in "hurry up and wait"-ing...which means I do have time to search, and post, and be "present" here a lot. But I have few to no resources OUTSIDE of the web - which means if the website I find something on does not attibute a source - I don't have a source. Masato, Malcolm Douglas, Joe and others (Thanks Guys!) follow me around and correct me, attribute sources where they can identify them, etc. All those tunes I post on the Great Tune Hunt - 2002 ? Most of them contributed by others - some (very few) located by me. All I really do is track them. There are lots of little "projects" that can be done that way...which reduce the "BS" content. Not that I don't like to post a parody to a Tune Challenge! or suck down a few virtual drinks in a MudCat Tavern thread - or laugh at the antics of Reg, Reg, Reg, Paw and Cletus! IMHO I think that part of the reason the mudcat is a "live" site is that the BS keeps a presence here - so people know this is a site that is visited often. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: greg stephens Date: 26 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM There have been around 100 purely musical postings in the last 3 hours, I should say. That cant be bad. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: DADGBE Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM I like to have both available even though the BS can get tedious when it obscures the music. At times it's fun to participate in a party but music stuff is what I'm after most times so the rest often gets passed by. Lately the scales seem tipped towards the BS but music postings still get a fair shake. Since folk songs are about anything folk are interested in singing about, some mighty good songs have come from lowly beginnings. I guess BS is in the eye (nose?) of the beholder. BS isn't a troubling for me as flaming, though. My very first posting on the 'cat recieved a royal flaming. As a result I'm wary of offering my neck to be chopped. Since that experience I often lurk among the threads without participating. Its thoughtful threads like this that make it wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: JedMarum Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:26 AM so how many roads must a man walk down? |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:34 AM Well, shon, (puts in teeth, adjusts wig, checks colostomy bag & fires up wheelchair) this "old timer" knows diddley squat about music so I can only contribute to "BS" threads. I've enjoyed a lot of the humour and creative writing here as well as the musical information & lyrics. OK, we can flog some things to death, the Hull and Punch jokes are probably OTT at the moment but, I've been guilty of harping on too long on other things in the past. The answer (as always) is ignore what doesn't please and enjoy what does. It is NOT compulsory to read every thread or agree with every contributor. I stay out of politics, religion and flame wars threads so it takes me much less time to check the threads - now I'm on pension it saves me money! RtS (and I haven't mentioned Lonnie Donegan in this thread) |
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Subject: RE: A Sincere Plea to Mudcat Oldtimers From: Sir Roger de Beverley Date: 26 Nov 02 - 09:37 AM Yes, I agree that there is a lot of "silly" posting about on a number of threads. However, a lot of the Punch the Horse and Hull/Beverley threads have been started with the initial aim of pubicising a live music event. If you cast your minds back to last Spring/Summer when we ran endless PVFF threads to publicise our "let's do the show right here" folk festival in Beverley. That resulted in one of the best attended and most open festivals for many a year. The Hull/Beverley area is now one of the most vibrant folk environments around with sessions and booked acts on every night of the week. Most of this has arisen through the womdeful medium of Mudcat and sometimes you just have to post something to a thread to get it back to the top of the list and into peoples eyeline again. It worked for me. Roger |
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