PEL Problems in Hull

Subject: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:29 AM

...There aren't any!
I have been asked recently by a few local catters to post a list of sessions/singarounds in the area, this would serve 2 purposes , firstly it would enable those that were interested, including visitors to the city find out what was happening folk wise, secondly if all the sessions were listed in one thread it would reduce the amount of threads about Hull, which I realise annoys some people.
I considered posting such a list a while ago, but was decided against it due to the confusion over the PEL issues, I was not sure which venues used held the correct licence, and did not want to get those that did not yet hold one into trouble by promoting an "illegal" session.
I have read the various PEL threads and due to the fact that there are so many of them {about 60!), I was still unsure of the current situation.
So with that in mind, I took the liberty yesterday of discussing the matter with the ward councillor for central Hull, he assures me that there is no problem here, whilst Hull City Council do employ a licensing enforcement officer, he is mainly concerned with public order and anti-social behaviour issues, and organisers of folk sessions have nothing to worry about, in fact Hull City Council is working to promote live music in the city.
Whilst I admire his tenacity in this campaign, The Shambles appears to be giving the impression that anyone visiting the UK and hoping to find folk sessions/live music will be wasting their time.
I would just like to state that as far as Hull is concerned, nothing could be further from the truth, in fact I as a music lover I consider myself very lucky to live here, as the music scene here is live and kicking and screaming! In fact the leader of Hull City Council {Simone Butterworth), is a fiddle player and has a keen interest in music of all kinds. So if anyone is thinking of visiting here, rest assured you will find plenty of live music, in recent years the folk scene here has really taken off, and I know of at least 2 UK Catters that are hoping to move to Hull soon.

John

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:43 AM

Blimey! That was almost literate.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:43 AM

You just tell us when you're ready to run for Mayor, jOhn, and we'll fix the rest. Good on yer, mate.

Mr Oakley and myself have been actively lobbying our MPs to introduce a 'None-in-a-bar' rule, as all this squiddly-diddly music interferes with our power drinking, and then we can have the juke-box back on.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:52 AM

Good post John. Adds a bit of perspective.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:53 AM

Skippy-I considered standing at the last local council elections as an independent candidate, but as I live opposite Simone I don't think I would have stood much chance in this ward!

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:57 AM

I think that they should sell the mayoral limousine and replace it by a gig - pulled by Punch the Horse.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Oaklet
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:14 AM

And play darts without some git with a keyboard that you squash it9 getting right on your tit-end.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:22 AM

Mayoral limousines? Our mayor drives a Lada!

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: GUEST,smallpiper
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:41 AM

excellent jOhn thats telling them - I too am proud to be a part in this here folk scene wot we've got etc

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 08:41 AM

Then where does he keep his victuals?

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: smallpiper
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:01 PM

On the mantle piece in his parlour where else?

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Caz
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

John, I think you're a brick and a sweetie for promoting as much live music and interest in it, that you can. Since meeting you I have found you to be a wealth of knowledge and a kind, warm and sincere man. I hope this doesn't sound too mushy but I think you're GREAT!

Carole

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: smallpiper
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 03:21 PM

Hey you're in there jOhn!

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM

So with that in mind, I took the liberty yesterday of discussing the matter with the ward councillor for central Hull, he assures me that there is no problem here, whilst Hull City Council do employ a licensing enforcement officer, he is mainly concerned with public order and anti-social behaviour issues, and organisers of folk sessions have nothing to worry about, in fact Hull City Council is working to promote live music in the city.

What great news! Just what we have been hoping for.

Now all we have to do is find out how exactly your Local Authority manages to do what no other has managed to do, and the licensee and supporters of the Blue Bell Helpston, can use this to prevent being prosecuted.

John I think perhaps you are being a little premature here. Before you sound the all clear, can I suggest you give your well-intentioned councillor an example to take to your local Licensing Manager. Say if you advertised a regular session in a pub with no Public Entertainment Licence, with about 10 or so participants.

If they say OK, find out how and we are all home and dry. Can you please urgently provide the answer?

I fear that you may be asking the wrong questions of the wrong people, but I do so hope I am wrong.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 07:51 AM

Shambles - perhaps its better if John doesn't push. The council have a great attitude there - but they may not be willing to blaze a trail. Pushing them might force them to reassess their position. From John's post it sounds like they are treating the issues as low priority (effectively turning a blind eye) rather than applying some new interpretation of the law. Sometimes its not wise to shine too bright a spotlight on a good situation.

KRis

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:20 AM

That was the point I was making.

You are dealing with the livihoods of licensees here.

Please ensure that your premises are PEL'd before risking making the activty public. That is the only certain way to ensure that they are safe. There are no other options.

For if a malicous complaint is made about an unlicensed session (and there very well may be one from a jealous PEL paying licensee), even your council will claim they have no choice but to prevent it.

But there is still nothing wrong with asking the hypothetical question of your council. There may even be a chance that this council will enable these events without a PEL.

If so we really need to know, as this may just prevent a good soul from prosecution and enable many activities currently unde threat.

One council being praised for just pretending not to see a problem, is not a lot of help for all the other good folkies who were/are not so fortunate and are being told that the law allows their council no option.

It would be usful to know the answer and until we do get it, perhaps the good folkies of Hull should just count their blessings and keep quiet?

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:24 AM

Perhaps the good folkies of Hull will be prepared to help those less fortunate in Helpston?

Details of the Blue Bell action and how to help can be found here.

Killed by the PEL system 2

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:27 AM

Telling the Helpston councillors how your council manages to receive praise from their electors, may help.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 10:36 AM

But one council being praised for supporting folk IS helpful. It gives another perspective on the issue. All is not doom & gloom and closed sessions. Hull has good news, and I'm very glad to hear it.
And as for "you are dealing with the livelihoods of licensees here" - well not really. They make their own choices like everyone else. And as for "risking making the activity public" - if its in the pub it is already public!

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 02:04 PM

In Hull, if a licensee decides to hold a session and not get a PEL, it works because the council can pretend it is not happening.

If you plaster the news that this session is taking all place, all over the internet, it is possible, as I have stated, that a malicious complaint may well leave them with little choice but to take action. I speak from bitter experience.

This could result in a heavy fine or a prison term for the licensee.
If licensees fear possible action and prevent the session, this is nearly as bad.

There is a difference in being glad of 'good' news and expressing a reckless and irresponsible attitude towards licensees. Between not being gloomy about other folk's troubles and sounding smug.

Having the luxury of this 'head in the sand', 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is one I thought, given the horror of the new Bill, was one we had finally seen the last of. I thought, as a small minority, that we were recognising the importance of working together

'They' will be coming, even for those in Hull. I hope that when they do, the folk of Hull will find others (like the folkies of Helpston) are willing to come to Hull's assistance.

The very best time to approach Hull council (through your councillors) is now, when there is not an action taking place. They then have room to move and possibly could take the decision open to them, that would legally enable sessions without PELs.

You would sound a little less smug, if you were at least prepared to give a mention to those, who due to no fault of theirs are having to accept the loss of their session and the legal threat hanging over their licensee.

No one is wanting to make the folk of Hull miserable and it is true that many sessions do continue without problems, in other parts of the country also. We want to share your good fortune, not inflict our misfortune on you.

If you really have the answer in Hull, spread the news of exactly how so others can also benefit.

When officers do close down sessions, they use the excuse that no other council sees the situation any different. If it can be demonstrated that Hull is a council that does, the floodgates will open, tht will enable all sessions everywhere.

Now that really would be good news! For all of us.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 07:54 PM

This from the 'Killed by the PEL system thread'. Not quite Hull but just across the River Humber.

Subject: RE: Killed by the PEL system Part 2
From: Oakley - PM
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:04 AM

The Hope and Anchor pub in South Ferriby has just fallen victim to North Lincolnshire Council's insistance on enforcing the PEL requirement without any complaints from neighbours from this sleepy village. This is the e-mail that I sent to the members of Punch the Horse on Friday 22nd November:

"Bob has completely enthused all the boozers in the village with his hard work and enthusiasm in rescuing a dormant pub. He took over what he thought was a musical venue and planned to develop it by booking fine musicians and Punch the Horse. What a pity that his adverts in the Evening Telegraph were examined by the forensic party-poopers in North Lincs Trading Standards department who compared the venue with a list of those who hold PELs and asked him to cease. He is rightly livid. As I understand it, North Lincs have given him permission to hold the Cara gig on the 5th. After that; no more gigs for 28 days, during which time the pub will be assessed for the issuing of a PEL. Mary, you can expect a call from him soon during which he will explain his frustration. When the Nelthorpe Arms went through the excercise, it took 3 months to secure the license. But I understand that he is going to endure the process. If I hear any more, I'll get in touch."

Pity, isn't it?

Oakley

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 08:54 PM

Surely Hull councillors are not pretending that the sessions do not happen. They are simply using limited enforcement resources in directions which produce greatest benefit for the people of Hull generally.

PS I live on the other side of the country to Hull and certainly not smug!!

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 02 - 09:40 PM

I appreciate that we have a reasonable situation here in Hull, but we do sympathise with other areas which are having such problems with PELs. I think our Council is acting reasonably, but they may take a different view is someone complains. We don't advertise events other than by word of mouth (or word of Mudcat with so many in this area reading this forum).

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 06:13 AM

Surely Hull councillors are not pretending that the sessions do not happen. They are simply using limited enforcement resources in directions which produce greatest benefit for the people of Hull generally.

I am not criticising Hull council, who would seem from the limited information supplied here, to be trying to do their best (if not their close neighbours, over just over the river in North Lincolnshire).

The fact remains that the ONLY way a council, even Hull, could legally permit a session in a pub without a PEL, is by using the discretion available to it, as the Licensing Authority to change the definition of the word 'performer' to one of someone paid or obligated to put on a performance.

Any other means (including pretending not to see them) is illegal. No Local Authority in the land, even Hull is going to even risk being criticised for acting illegally.

If Hull is really finding some other magical way of legally enabling sessions without PELs, we don't need the folkies of Hull to whisper to each other about their good fortune - we all need them to shout it from the 'bloody' rooftops!

What I sadly suspect will happen now is that the good folkies of Hull will choose to leave things well alone and not approach their councillors with concerns for sessions.

Or not to establish if the council could have a definition of 'performer', that would really merit praise. Not just in Hull but from everywhere else.

Which brings us back to why, even just one malicious complaint to Hull council, as happened here in Dorset and also in Helpston, will mean that they will have to claim that they have a statutory duty to enforce the law and that failing to do so will leave them open to criticism and censure.

John, advertising is advertising, as I have also found out through personal experience. You really must not risk the local situation you find reasonable, by not first establishing if the pubs do have a PEL, before you even talk amongst yourselves about it.

What ever you may think the council view is, the fact is that even in Hull, for a lincensee to allow a session, without a PEL is a serious criminal offence.

Where ever you live, if you think that your Local Authority is or could hold a different view, it is vitally important that instead of writing (what to some sounds smug) messages here, that you establish the exact means they are using.

With the new and even worse legislation soon to be imposed upon us, the excuse that making a fuss' can risk making things worse, is even more hollow-sounding that used to be.

The very things that we love and cherish are under attack from a Government Dept that should be encouraging all cultural activities. If YOU don't do what YOU can now, it will very soon be too late.

www.churchtimes.co.uk

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 06:25 AM

The two-in-a-bar rule has been around for ages. The vast majority of sessions are still happening with no problems. A few sessions have been shut down, and this is highly visible at the moment. Does anyone have any statistics to show whether this really is an accelerating trend, or whether its just a bubbling irritation that has always been there & done relatively little harm overall. In which case I think just carrying on as normal & not making a fuss is perfectly reasonable.

Kris

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:24 AM

A few sessions have been shut down, and this is highly visible at the moment. Does anyone have any statistics to show whether this really is an accelerating trend, or whether its just a bubbling irritation that has always been there & done relatively little harm overall. In which case I think just carrying on as normal & not making a fuss is perfectly reasonable.

If I see someone collapse in the street, does it need to be proved to me that a satistically significant number of people collapse in the street, before I am concerned and do what I can to help them?

Or if it is not a regular occurance, just carrying on as normal & not making a fuss is perfectly reasonable.

There are many factors at work nationally(as demonstrated in Hull) that make exact statistical evidence impossible.

Kris I refuse to believe that you are as smug and and uncaring as you sounded above

Would you really descibe the threat of prosecution currntly hanging over the head of the lady from the Blue Bell in Helpston as a bubbling irritation that has always been there & done relatively little harm overall.

If what you mean is that is has (yet) to have personlly done you harm, I really hope that this is not a viewed shared by many too many others here, or I have seriously misjudged this place. I know I have not misjudged this place.

However, what was first proposed in this thread was not to carry on normally and not make a fuss. It was to bring the world's attention to the fact that there was NO problem with PELs in Hull.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:29 AM

Then they came for me

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:39 AM

We're alright Jack A song in the Mudcat Songbook.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:43 AM

Shambles - you read into text what you want to see. You clearly want to see smug - your choice. This is a valid question. You have not answered it. Your analogy is a cheap shot, and cheapens your argument.
I am not prepared to believe that "they" are coming for us without some reasonable facts - and one of the facts I'd like to see is the progress over time of this issue. You are doing a fine job of publicising the problem at the moment - but I want to know whether this is a worsening problem or whether its always been this way.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:53 AM

I followed your links. Your song cites "ignore the statistics". Excuse me, but I was asking whether anyone (and this does not mean just you) has got any statistics over time.
From those links I begin to get the impression that you are so sure that you are right that you have contempt for anyone that questions your position on this. I believe that one should question before accepting. As you point out, you are very close to the problem. As you no doubt suspect, I am not. Hence I asked a question. If you think that is smug uncaring and contemptible, then I will take the view that THAT is your problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:12 AM

The main fact of life is that as from, most probably next July, any live music practically anywhere in England Wales and Hull, will be illegal without advanced permission from the Local Authority.

If you have sessions in Hull in pubs that do not now have PELs, or any live music at all these will automatically be illegal unless application is made and permission is obtained to enable it.

This has been and is enough to bring things to a head. How bad do you need it to get?

Does it really matter? Surely just one beneficial activity prevented now and one licensee threatened with prosecution anywhere is too many?

Statistics are like mini skirts, what they reveal is interesting, what they conceal is vital.

I think that the evidence shows that over the last few years, as local authorities have prepared for the new legislation, by forming licensing committees and appointing extra licensing staff, 'silly' enforcements have increased.

But one thing is sure, we have been unable to stem the tide and prevent actions against customers making their own music in pubs. So I can state for a fact that the actions are not likely to decrease, up to the coming change in the law.

But you will just have to take the words of the people who have contibuted to the 'Killed by the PEL system' threads, over the past two years and make the judgement yourself as to whether the actions are increasing. If this factor is important to you. Why would you doubt their words?

You must be able to appreciate that the true picture is not possible to statistically demonstrate. These are criminal offences. No one is willing to risk enforcement by openly stating they are taking part or providing such a thing. If folk are not having local trouble, they are not very likely (as in Hull) to risk 'rocking the boat'.

But this thread was in danger of saying that because it had not snowed in Hull, there was no such thing as snow.

You say I am close to the issue. Yes that is true and all the above info is freely available. I am only forced to try and demonstrate the situation in this thread because you are not close to the issue, and do not have any more satistics than me, but seem to think the position is not as I believe it is.

I wish I had not been so close to the issue, for it did rather find me. I am far more bored with all these PEL threads than anyone.

Do you have to see and feel snow before you are prepared believe it exists? Kris, if I asked you to prove to me that there is no such thing as snow, could you do it?

You do not like me suggesting that you are sounding smug but are quite happy to suggest that me and others think that we are misrepresenting the facts to you and demanding proof.

To point out to potential tourists that certain folk activities are considered illegal, is not quite the same thing as saying that there is not leagl (or illegal) music making still to be experienced, in Hull or anywhere else.

It is difficult to make a case that all this is not under serious threat.

But as this thread mentions both Hull and PELs, there is not much chance of many folk here actually reading it.........*Smiles*

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM

Just in case anyone does open this thread.

This is only the visible 'tip of the iceberg' but as requested, here is a list of the events listed in the Mudcat Café, 'Killed by the PEL system' threads.

All of these have been affected, terminally in some cases, by local authority enforcement and all of this enforcement is broadly based on the interpretation of the 'two in a bar rule' that members of the public, making music, are counted as performers in a public entertainment.

An interpretation that Greenwich Council (who appear in the list twice) accept and freely state that this interpretation has never been tested in Court.

And the Government Minister responsible, Dr Howells states in a letter to Michael Portillo 14/03/02.
"However, under Section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964 a public entertainment licence is not required if music or dancing is performed by less than three performers on licensed premises i.e. the 'two in a bar rule'. The rule is intended to apply to public performances put on by a public house to entertain the public and should not prevent ordinary people singing together or dancing in public houses".

Sessions/singarounds

The Old Ale House, Oxford April 2000
The Cove House Inn, Portland December 2000
The Welsh Harp, Waltham Abby ….2001
The Cock, Stansted Mountfitchett, May 2002
The Guildford Arms, Greenwich, May 2002
The Cricketers, Greenwich, May 2002
The Cannon, Newport Pagnall, May 2002
The Bull, Stony Stratford, June 2002
The Blue Bear, Helpston, September 2002
The Lands End, Twyford, October 2002
The Ruiston Inn, Taunton, Oct 2002

Menbers only clubs

The Old King's Head, The Belper Folk Club, May 2002
Broadacres, The Bridlington Folk Club, July 2002
The Henry VIII Hotel, Bayswater, Tall Poppy Presents, July 2002

Miscellaneous

Waterstones Book Shop, London, 2001
Broadstairs Folk Festival, One-Man-Show, August 2002.

Please help to ensure that we do not lose even one more event to this stupidity.

http://www.faxyourmp.com/

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~pfd/

The above link is where you can find out (and help) the latest action at the Blue Bell in Helpston.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:52 AM

To be honest with you Shambles - yes - if I've never seen snow then I'd want as much info as possible before forming or acting on any opinion about snow. To stretch the analogy - I'd want to know if there had always been a bit of snow around, or whether this was a new and worrying phenomenon. If there's always a bit of snow about then I might just decide not to worry about snow too much. Of course I can't prove there's no such thing as snow (for snow read PEL problems), but then I'm not seeking to prove that. I don't think you are misrepresenting anything - I am not demanding proof, I WAS asking whether certain additional information was available. Two year's worth of info is available here on Mudcat, but I was wondering about a much longer period of time.   
The ice-age may well be coming with the new legislation - but I don't think that's clear enough yet to be certain. My own position at the moment is that I'll wait and see what comes of the new legislation. I wrote to my MP voicing a general concern with respect to the new legislation, and her reply seemed quite reasonable. Until it proves itself one way or the other I'll wait and see.
I don't think I'll bother asking any more questions here.
I wish you well in your efforts.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 07:15 AM

Kris sorry if you think I was coming down hard on you. If I am honest, I felt that you were comming down on me and all the people who are working very hard to actively prevent the 'Ice Age'.

Although to many of those, the 'Ice Age' was already upon them.

Also a little too soft on those who are intent on imposing the 'Ice Age'(and the snow).

When we are all up to our necks in snow, and we do know for sure, it could possibly be too late to do anything about it.

In practice, yes we could just possibly make the new legislation   work to some degree but it would not ever be right in principle.

These are the people I think really need to be quizzed on why the lady in Helpston is to be prosecuted for just allowing her customers to carry on the tradition of making folk music in her pub.

Or the people who recently prosecuted and fined a licensee £1600 (with costs), because he had tried and could not prevent some of his customers from dancing to recorded music that he did not need a licence for.

Yours, and everybody else's efforts with their MPs is much appreciated but it is important to keep at it. It is a complicated subject and rather too easy for MPs to be reassued by the 'spin', rather than delving too deeply and then to reassue you in return.

You do sound a little reassured by your MP's reply. Perhaps you would also feel reassured by the latest from Dr Howells?

Have you heard all this somewhere before? The Times readers haven't. Perhaps some letters to the Times may help?

Howells – Letter to Times - November 30, 2002

Intended purpose of Licensing Bill
From the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport

Sir, The Licensing Bill would not criminalise impromptu or spontaneous singing (letters, November 27). What it would do is ensure that, where music and dancing are to be a regular feature at a venue, local residents would have the opportunity to air their concerns with the local licensing authority before a decision was made.

The Bill would improve the opportunities for musicians to perform in public venues. The Government does not accept that certain types of music, for example acoustic folk music, are never noisy and should therefore be excluded from the new licensing regime.

The licensing authority would have the power to impose necessary and proportionate conditions in order to protect residents and customers.

The Licensing Bill would allow people to have a good night out and enjoy themselves, while making sure that those that wish to stay in for a peaceful evening can do so.

Fees for licences will be set centrally by the Secretary of State under secondary legislation, and it would be open to her, where appropriate, to set fees at a reduced level for charities and religious groups or indeed to decide that they should be waived.

Some churches fear that disproportionate and costly conditions may be attached to licences. However, under the Bill all licensing authorities would be required to have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State. And it is intended that this will make clear that it would be wholly inappropriate to attach disproportionate conditions to licences affecting churches and other charitable institutions.

Yours sincerely,
KIM HOWELLS,
Department for Culture,
Media and Sport,
2-4 Cockspur Street, SW1Y 5DH

Now the above is not just 'spin', it is intentionally misleading and just plainly and preposterously untrue.

If the Government do not want local authorities to be able to impose 'disproportionate conditions' on certain activities, why have they incuded so many more activities, that are at risk from this, in the Bill?

No dispropotionate conditions COULD EVER be placed on innocent community and charitable activities, if they were not included as licensable activities in the first place.

The Government have been asked to, in the Commons, and have failed to provide guidance to Local Authorities about current enforcement. They only talk about guidance, as regards to the Bill.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:23 AM

It is snowing in Hull, I will have to admit that there is such stuff as snow.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:32 AM

PS-Thanks for the kind words Caz, and good luck with your new band, and well done for your places in the local Talent Trail competition.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:47 AM

This hardly needed to be refreshed...

Or are you HUA again John...

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: GUEST,vectis at work
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:02 AM

We are OK until September. Then it all starts to go pear shaped by all accounts.

Subject: RE: PEL Problems in Hull........
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:41 AM

The Session at The Railway Hotel, Thwaite Street, Cottingham is temporarily closed due to PEL problems, I went there last Tuesday, there was no music, I asked why, and landlady explained they are having music licence problems, they are working on a solution, and are hoping to re-start the session during October, though to save a wated journey it's probably best to phone them before setting off.