BS: bullying advice

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 07:13 PM

In 7th grade had a P.E. teacher who pathetically sank into the culture of the kids, and called attendance using a demeaning nickname for one sad, quiet girl, Rhonda. The kids loved him, and I to this day hate the guy. It would've been nice if I'd had the nerve to ask him why he didn't just call her by her name, but I didn't.

   I got the impression this teacher mis-understood your intent. Could you meet with him again and explain that you aren't interested in his opinions, advice, or world-wisdom, which one questions already, but in what he can do as a professional to address the problem? He said he knew about the girl baiting your son. Well. If it were my class I'd meet out a mild punishment to all, and let them thank whomever started it. His punishing your son simply encourages more disruptions, since that was the motive-- but what's his motive in responding as he did? Seems odd.

And I'd tell him any response other than a sensible, professional course of action, put it in writing, or keep it to himself--he can make his excuses to himself on his own time.

It's good your son knows you're on his side, and it's not all bad that he has to go through some degree of this, even if it changes him some. This stuff doesn't go away, and he's developing his strengh in the face of collective ugliness and insanity, which is a valuable life-skill for a man to have.

   If changing schools is an option, I'd allow myself one of those moments of perfect rudeness, when they are called for, before I moved on. There's an art to saying things you never will regret. Hope things get more tolerable for your son, before too long. Sounds like a good guy.

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: Helen
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 08:09 PM

The three areas of work where workplace bullying is most prevalent, according to Tim Field, are volunteer work, the health services - and, wait for it!! - teaching. So teachers can be bullied by other teachers and by their bosses as well. Not excusing their behaviour, but this is well documented.

And to stress again the importance of documenting the situation - as Firecat says, documentation "gives evidence of what exactly has happened, and makes it a lot easier to complain." Undocumented events are almost impossible to get results from.

Ireland, as to your son worrying about admitting that girls have been getting the "better" of him ("better" seems the wrong word here altogether) think about this: I have more degrees and qualifications than most people could poke a stick at, I have interesting and varied work experience, including working as a management consultant travelling around the state for a local government association, and I have been teaching management, business, human resource management, industrial relations, and workplace communication for years. I was also a Union rep for nearly 20 years and have close friends in our Union office. I still got cornered and caught by the bullying b*****d, and he won in the end because he got away with it. But not without a few of his own psychological wounds to lick, inflicted by me.

He is a serial bully of the worst kind: a sociopath. The clever type who uses words to hurt, rather than physical violence. The clever type who manipulates and back-stabs behind the scenes, and plays it straight for the audience, especially his own (female) manager.

I felt really stupid getting caught out and squashed like a bug by this person, but now I know that I was ambushed before I even walked in there on my first day. And, more importantly, I know that it was my niceness and my professionalism which made me a target, as well as my qualifications and experience, especially because I am a woman, and all that made him feel totally threatened.

Fred Miller said: "he's developing his strengh in the face of collective ugliness and insanity, which is a valuable life-skill for a man to have" and I agree with this, but I would change it to .."a valuable life-skill for *anyone* to have".

The hardest thing I had to do was to modify one of my most fundamental, most deeply held convictions which was that very few people are truly evil, and consequently people deserve the benefit of the doubt and only in extreme cases should I need to *fight* back, rather than deal with the situation with professional conflict resolution processes.

After encountering the bullying b*****d I now know that cold-hearted people who are *disconnected* from human empathy and who exhibit sociopathic tendencies can walk among us and get away with criminal behaviour. I won't put up with that behaviour, and now I will be able to recognise it much sooner, and stand my ground and demand my own right to be respected.

We are doing the bullies a favour by pointing out their dysfunctional behaviour and trying to help them to recognise and change before their behaviour becomes an established core of their interactions with others. To let them get away with their behaviour is to see them launch themselves on possibly a lifetime of dysfunction. Project these bullies forward in time, to when they have a position of power - what mayhem could they unleash then?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:42 PM

Helen, yes, thanks, that's what I meant. And I didn't mean to say that it's a good thing, good for someone to have to go through stuff like that, but instead of suggestions of how your son could alter his behaviour to "get by" I think a person deserves credit and respect for hanging in there, in an ugly and unfair situation. There's something to it, and even if my kid wasn't a saint about it, and even though I'd want to avoid the whole thing, I'd also want to honour and respect their dealing with it as best they could, when they had to.

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: momnopp
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 12:05 AM

This site might not have specifics for the UK, but it looks like folks have provided other links that do. Click
Thanks for bringing up an issue that clearly has an impact on a lot of us and is a thorny one to tackle in a peacable manner.

Keep on talking with your son, and keep on modeling excellent problem-solving skills and keeping the lines of communication open.

Peace,

JudyO

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: fox4zero
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 03:18 AM

Ireland
I hate to be a pessimist, but meeting with this teacher (who is THE culprit) would be worthless. Ditto with his superiors.
If I were you, I would do everything humanly possible to change schools.
Failing this,legislation does exist in the UK concerning this behavior, I would hire an attorney who is knowlegeable in education law and let the attorney meet with the main administraion officials for a chat, with the probability of legal action if the chat is not sufficient.
My wife and I spent 10 agonizing years dealing with ignorant and incompetent teachers and school officials, fighting for our learning- disabled son. When we finally found a really "tough broad", sympatico and knowledgeable lawyer, everything suddenly changed for the better.
We had an impartial hearing and the school board finally made themselves agreeable.
Some of the damage done to my David still persists and he expresses the desire to "get even" with one particularly bullying teacher. It's funny how one f'ing S.O.B of a teacher can eclipse the memory of dozens of caring and dedicated teachers.
Larry Parish

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 09:15 AM

Firstly, the school is required to have a bullying policy. Ask for a copy, and look for anything it that has been omitted in this case. Write to the Head of Year, Head of Department, Head Teacher and then the Education Authority - but not all at once. In sequence, letting each one know that you will be doing so, and referring to the answers when you do. Refer to your journal of events in the letters.

You might try writing to arrange an interview with the offending teacher first - with both parents, so you are both witnesses, and no line manager, unless he requests it. If you do it with his manager, it will look more threatening to him. Offering the option of not having his superior there means that you could sort it out as equals. If he wants someone there, because the two of you represent a threat, such as another member of staff, or his union rep, agree to it. Make it clear to him, in the interview, that the prime purpose of the meeting is not discuss your son's behaviour or position, but any difficulties he has with you. Tell him that you do not believe it is appropriate for him to pressure your son if he has resentments about your concerns about the bullying, and that it is inappropriate for him to do so in front of the children. Say that you will always be available to discuss any problems (speak the way a teacher would, fobbing off a parent, calmly, smilingly, as if there are no problems). Refer to the bullying policy, which will definitely have references to Home/School partnership, and cooperation of parents and teachers, and point out that you were only expecting that he and you would be taking part in this process in dealing with the events. Show him that you understand that teachers, particularly in a subject such as his, where there are crucial health and safety issues, must find it hard to deal with children with disruptive behaviour, whether it is physical or the result of social manipulation through language and exclusion. Don't accuse him of being unprofessional at this stage. Body language that would be effective would be of someone who is choosing not to be angry in order to work together for the common good, offering the hand of - not friendship, exactly. Say that you haven't gone higher up this time because you feel that it's better to sort things out face to face like this.

Have prepared a document setting out what you hope to come from the meeting. Make notes of anything you agree about. This should include a statement on his part that he will not draw attention to your son in a negative way in front of other pupils. Let him have a copy of this, typed out, next day. (Keep a copy of everything).

If this fails, then go for the letters, above. The teacher is in the wrong.

I was at a school where the junior head enabled the bullying because the unstated ethos (the stated one was the developing of all the girls' talents to their full potential) was that sneaking was the most appalling social evil. I now understand two things about that - that most education systems drew inspiration from the Spartans rather than any society more acceptable to more liberal minds - and that she had to live in a rented room in the house of some parents of a school pupil, where other pupils, for whom she had some responsibility, were boarded. She had a horrible life.

I was exposed to verbal bullying from lads at a church youth club. There was no adult present one week, and I was the only girl, and when I complained of the behaviour the following week, in front of my mother and some people from the area youth department, I was told that the lads would not do that, and that to the pure, all things were pure. At least once after that, the minister described me to others, unknown to my family, unsolicited, and without my parents being consulted, as being someone who required care. It has taken me a very long time to realise that it was his absence from the club that he was attempting to smokescreen, and his relief that it was nothing worse that had happened. This is an analogy with your case. If your son's teacher allows the offending bully group to see that he is supporting them, then he may prevent them for spotting their weapon over him, which, even if he has already been spoken to about it, they could still use against him.

Another path to go down is to ask if there is a Technician/Learning Support Assistant available for that class, as there is for Science, so that the number of adults in the room is greater. That would support the teacher with a difficult class, and also make him inhibit his language.

Is there likely to be any problem with the parents of the other children? By saying what he has to your son, the teacher has also delivered the message that any complaints from theirs may lead to him humiliating them. Not a good tactic, but it might be understandable in some circumstances. Are there any other targets for this group? Can you get together with their parents? Can your son get together with others? The peer system can work - your son's buddy would be bigger than the bullies, and he would have friends. If he is someone that the school admires, the bullies would want him to see them as admirable too.

When is the next Ofsted? You are allowed to talk to inspectors about any concerns. You don't want to wheel this out yet, but it's the biggy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: GUEST,Fight fire with fire.
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 08:26 AM

Teach the child to fight.

If at first you dont succeed, in with the boot then in with the "heed".

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:01 AM

I don't think the above responds to this at all. For one thing, once you get in a fight at school, you have to get in more fights--everybody wants to rank against the guy who beat the other guy. It's very similar to having a problem with one teacher--suddenly they are all finding faults with you. I did both of these things, one year. Plus, you can't go around fighting girls, but shouldn't have to put up with the needling malevolence that they sometimes get together in, perhaps as an expression of... well who knows--but anyone would prefer a fight. At least, the school should not condone and culture that stuff, which is what this teacher has done.

   Many adults seem to have remarkably childish ideas about these things. It's depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: alison
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 09:14 AM

Put it all in writing.....

my 5 year old and several other girls in her KINDERGARDEN!!!! class were being bullied by a boy who had alread been removed from one school for bad behaviour (remember these are 5 year olds.... what the %^&$ will he be like in secondary school!!)..... the girls were coming home black & blue..... several parents phoned up and complained.... but nothing happened.....

as soon as we documented events and sent it to the principal, suddenly it all got taken very seriously....... he is still a problem.... but they deal with it quickly now....

good luck


slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: bullying advice
From: Grab
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 11:24 AM

Ireland, as someone who was bullied all through school, I'm honestly not sure that "turning the other cheek" is the best solution. Understanding why a rockfall happens does NOT help you when you're underneath it. But you can still work the systme your way. A few ideas for your lad from my experience.

The first rule is, words *do* hurt, but you'll live. And you can usually work out something to call them.

Second rule, following on from that - it's only good for them if they get to you. They say "we're going to get you into *troouuuuble*", say "Like I care". And act like you don't care, too - don't give them the satisfaction of seeing you worried about the teacher giving you lines.

Third rule is, don't give them an opening to use the school rules against you. Someone throws a pen at you, you put it in your pocket and keep the damn thing. Make them ask for it back. :-) They want to take it further, that's their problem - if they want to complain to a teacher, they then have to say that they threw it at you. To "sir, he's got my pen", "she threw it at me, fair's fair" is good enough. The teacher will likely get annoyed anyway, but you'll not be the one starting it - you're then using the system against them.

The fourth rule along the same lines is, don't start the fight. Never throw the first punch. That gives you an automatic get-out clause when the teachers break it up, especially if some of your friends can verify that the guy hit you first. You might still get detention, but only if you've done him some serious damage, in which case it's probably worth it.

The fifth rule is, don't be someone that ppl want to fight. Don't throw the first punch, but be in there with the second one, and be the one throwing the last one. It sounds like your son is OK on that score, but making an example of one or two is a good idea. If you're known to go utterly psycho and try to jump on ppl's heads in a fight, not many ppl will want to get involved. That at least solves the physical bullying problem. Sounds like your son is OK on this score, it's the other bits that are the problem.

The sixth rule is, don't play their game. Be smart. Suppose a gang of them a playing "keep-away" with your bag. Don't chase the bag around, pick *one*, apply both hands to his throat (or an arm-lock, or whatever), and say "drop the f***ing bag". That stops things being fun for them pretty damn quick. OK, this goes against the advice of not starting a fight, but the shock value of this will often do the job. If not, the fifth rule might help.

Some ppl say that violence solves nothing. Sometimes that's true - random violence is no help at all, bcos you're just playing into their hands. But *choosing* your fights - that's the strength.

The single best defence against bullying is to teach your kid martial arts. Firstly they'll be able to defend themselves against other kids, so they're safe. And secondly they'll see fights in terms of sparring, which they do all the time, so fights will no longer be a novelty and they won't get into fights as much. Thirdly, simply knowing that you can do this gives you so much more confidence, and self-confidence is the real key to stopping bullying. The worst thing a bully can do is strip your self-confidence, and martial arts teaches you to hold onto this. In my case it was Tae Kwon Do, but anything will do just as well.

A little while back, there was a thing on Slashdot about bullying in schools, called "Voices from the Hellmouth". I suggest reading through that and seeing some of the things that ppl said in there. Over and over, the ppl who survived bullying with their self-respect intact were the ones who took martial arts training.

Oh and Ireland, I suggest a formal complaint about this teacher. In writing, on the guy's record. The teacher taking it out on your kid in public bcos you complained (informally) is no way to behave. If he behaves like this with an informal complaint, the only way forward is to make it formal and get the disciplinary process involved. Your son may not be the first person he's done this to.

Graham.