English notated bagpipe music 1st?

Subject: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 12:39 PM

In listening to a local program on NPR, a member and manager of a bagpipe band said that written bagpipe music didn't really happen until the English took it up, mainly for use with the military. Is this true? What is the history of written music for the pipes?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: smallpiper
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

It could be just a romour or a plain lie, but I suspect that there is some truth behind it as certainly the music and stories of the Scots and Irish were rather lodged in the oral tradition, music being passed around from mouth to mouth so to speak!

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: Declan
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:08 PM

The Scots may have passed their pipes from mouth to mouth, but the Irish passed theirs from elbow to elbow :-}

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:15 PM

As long as it wasn't hoof to mouth, eh?*bg*

Thanks, smallpiper.

We meet again, Declan!:-)

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: smallpiper
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:28 PM

Ha Declan but that wasn't untill they discovered (or where discovered) by the mob with the bellows prior to that they used mouth blown pipes same as the boys and girls over the water.

I also once heard that the Scots used to teach people to play the pipes then send them over to Ireland to "polish" their techniques and learn to do really trick gracings.

You are most welcome Kat

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:30 PM

I'd tend to think that it was the growth in popularity of the instrument and its repertoire outside traditional circles that would have made paper notation necessary (and it can be very complex indeed!), but others will know better. I think that it would be misleading to try to make a distinction between Scottish, Irish and English piping traditions, in all of which the tradition was originally aural and in all of which written notation has become progressively more used since the 18th century.

To say "until the English took it up" does display some ignorance of history, though; the historical records we have suggest that bagpipes arrived in England, and became popular there, over a century before they caught on in Scotland. (See previous threads on the subject).

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: MMario
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM

And from accounts were found all around the mediterranean at one point or another

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 05:32 PM

Well the fellow did claim there was evidence of them clear back in ancient Egypt, just the chanter and goatskin or whathaveyou and that they were brought to England by the Romans.

They also talked about their first CD, just released, and palyed a few cuts. They are quite proud of a sixteen year old girl member who taught herself to play. One cut they aired of her soloing was what sounded like a fairly intricate tune. The manager said a lot of other pipers came to her during the Highland Games in Estes Park to get the tune from her and listen to her do some special notes, one of which I think was "bending" kind of like a sliding. The program will re-broadcast tonight, so I will listen more carefully and get the name of the tune for you all. And, I will also get a more direct quote of what he claimed about the written stuff.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 07:07 PM

Ah, that Roman story. It gets repeated and repeated by the romantics, but there's no evidence of any kind that bagpipes arrived in the British Isles before the Crusades; the nearest anyone can legitimately go is to say that it isn't actually impossible that the Romans had them at a time when they still had a military presence in Britain. I wouldn't put too much trust in anyone who goes further than that...

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: smallpiper
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 07:56 PM

Ah bending (or sliding) notes now there is a thing! When I was taught to play the highland pipes I was told in no uncertain terms that one could NOT bend notes on the pipes....... that was untill I started doing it and was considered radical and subversive. However I don't think for one second that I was the first I recon anyone who listends to Scots Irish or whatever music would agree that bending (or sliding) notes is an integral part of the music and I personally think that it takes it out of the military tradition and into what it was probably like prior to the military take over of piping. But there you go its just an idea!

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: GUEST,Guest - Bob Mayo
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 08:23 PM

I find it surprising that the English ever notated bagpipe music.
After all, one of our definitions of a gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes - BUT DOESN'T

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: Barry T
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 09:15 PM

I can't speak to the hypothesis that the English were the first to notate pipe music, but I believe your suggestion that the military may have served as the catalyst has merit. (And that, of course, implies that we're referring to the British army of the day.)

Whether 'tis true or not I can't say, but I recall reading in another newsgroup that the first documented record of the existence of an organized pipe band refers to that belonging to a British regiment garrisoned in Montreal, Canada. As I recall, the date was relatively "recent"... 1825 or so.

The military bands defined proficiency as standardization for both playing style and tune settings. That would have implied the need for notation for training to reach that standard and a means to share a common tune list with geographically dispersed musicians.

- - - - -

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: CraigS
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 05:21 PM

The Scots tribes came from Ireland, and I have always understood that this is why some tunes have an Irish name and a Scottish name ( the Harvest Home is one example, and I can't remember the Irish name!).
What has this to do with bagpipes? When it comes to instruments, they are undoubtably older than the fiddle in the Gaelic traditions. While today we are familiar with Highland pipes and Northumbrian smallpipes, there was another variety in use in Scotland 200- 300 years ago, referred to as Lallans (lowlands) pipes or Half-longs. I do not know much about these pipes other than that they were acceptable for use in the (English) army, were bellows-driven, and provide the ancestral link between the Irish and Scottish pipes. That is to say, the half-longs were the ancestors of both types, but the two types went off in different directions. Anybody like to link them to the Italian piffero? This is the full extent of what I know, accurate or innacurate, and I just hope it stimulates something other than speculation.

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 06:47 PM

I dont know the answer to this question but there's a man who knows a lot about it. he's called Roderick Cannon and he used to publish articles about early English bagpipe tunes. Maybe someone will find one somewhere and do a blue clickie? He was very helpful to me with my reserches into NW English tunes a long time ago and sent me some very useful stuff, including Marsden's collection of lancashire hornpiipes c 1700 which must undoubtedly contain many early English pipe tunes, though you can be never too sure in early collections. They are not labelled as pipe tunes, so you have to deduce from range and style, which in the end is guesswork.

Subject: RE: English notated bagpipe music 1st?
From: smallpiper
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 07:51 PM

Half-long pipes are also known as Border or Lowland pipes. They grew up as a seperate entity to both the small pipes, the northumbrian and the irish pipes. There is another variety which are more probably the ancester of the Irish pipes as we know them today and they are called Pastoral pipes and are being revived by a couple of makers, Hamish Moore being one. He (Hamish) also makes a set of pipes called Reel pipes which may be akin and indeed a forefather of the Border (Lowland Half- long etc).