Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:02 PM

Robomatic - sounds a lot like the "velcro dancing" that a couple of folks have been seen to do. Rip - Rip - Rip in rythm...

John

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 06:34 PM

In Alaska it is also called 'hundred mile an hour tape' precisely because it has been used to patch small holes in bush planes (such as a grizzly might make).

There is a duct tape musical piece put on by the locals at The Fly By Night club, they unwind a roll of tape in percussive rhythim, it's quite good.

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM

Wille-O

That twin tailed Beech airplane was popular with bush pilots because it was all "rag covered." If you punched a hole in it, you could use an old shirt (or better, a piece of mother-in-law's parachute) for a temporary repair. The "approved" repair was to "glue" the patch on. If you had a bit of acetone, you could make your own "glue" (actually a lacquer) by knocking a bit of "plexiglass" off of an unused window and dissolving it in the acetone.

Duct tape was never an "approved" patch, because the Duct tape "sticky" caused the adjacent lacquer to break up, but it was probably widely used.

The plane was still in demand in the early '60s, but the last factory build was around 1960 - '62 or so - because it became impossible to find "rebuildable" engines to make any more.

That airplane had a steel tube "frame," but many others used more wood than metal - glued together largely with chicken blood. It was fairly early in the 2d WW era when they learned (or when it was commercialized) to "freeze dry" the blood and "reconstitute" it by adding water. The fringe benefit is that the smell of the airplane shops improved greatly.

The "speed tape" used by AA is actually an accepted temporary repair, subject to some pretty strict limitations on when and where it can be used. AA was certainly not charged just because they used it, but because they used it in an "unapproved manner." This tape bears little resemblance to the common "Duct Tape" since it consists essentially of a sheet of aluminum (up to 0.03 inches or so thick) with an adhesive.

Surprisingly perhaps, one of the few places that many more recent building codes prohibit the use of Duct/Duck Tape is -- on Ducts. The problem is that when the adhesive used on the cheaper tapes "cures" it pulls loose or falls off. Caulking is now the preferred/approved method for sealing air ducts in the building trades in at least some locations.

It is likely that the "Duct Tape Cure" for warts works because virtually all high-tack adhesives contain at least a small amount of free mercury. It's what "maintains the tackiness." A very good poison if properly applied - and the higher content in "rough tapes" is a reason why something like Duct Tape should only be used as a temporary expedient for First Aid purposes, and with a gauze between the tape and any open wound.

John

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:39 PM

TNDARLN,
Funny, but the song phrase that pops into my head here is a take off on the Hollies' "BUS STOP:"

Duck tape smooths scrapes,
Mends planes, stops rape,
Waterproofs umbrellas.
Darns socks, heals warts,*
Loved by old farts,
Makes the world feel mellow!


*BTW, medical research has recently discovered that duct/duck tape (used properly) is as effective as more hi-tech techniques (such as "freezing") in removing warts, and maybe less prone to complications. (You don't cover the wart with duct/k tape and then yank it off like those wax depilatories, though. You have to cover the wart for days or weeks, and it goes away. For warts on the face, this cure may be more disfiguring than the wart, of course, at least for a while!)

SWO

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 10:21 AM

Back when I was a working forestry tech, I flew at least a couple of times on a Northern Ontario bush plane with conspicuous duct tape patches on the tail assembly. A Twin Beech as I recall. The pilot was more concerned about the leaky pontoon.

On a 727, that would make me a tetch nervous.

Duck or duct, as soon as the stuff got popular more and more cheap variants started to show up. I would only fly on a plane that was taped with the best!

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: TNDARLN
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:25 AM

As soon as I saw the thread title, before I could see the posts, I was singing a refrain to the tune of "High Hopes"- obviously, the first two lines would be

Duck------Tape [or duct, I don't care, but duck sings better]
They've got Duck---------Tape--------

[and then, as I type]
They've pie in the sky on the fly------- tape!

This is scary. I've gotta stop this. Now.
Someone please take 'er away? Please?

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:52 AM

Gareth, nice post. A couple of BTW's:

Towards the end of 1944, the Luftwaffe did have a night fighter, the Heinkel He219 "Uhu" (="Owl"), which could just about keep up with a Mosquito, and shot down one or two which were caught napping. This was a rare event, though.

The bomb load of the B Mk 1 was originally 500lb. (2 x 250lb). They found that by cropping the vanes of the 250lb bomb, that they could get four, rather than two into the bomb bay. The B Mk XVI had bulged bomb bay doors, and could carry a single 4000lb "cookie" (also known as a "blockbuster"). The FB Mk VI could carry only two of the cropped 250lb bombs, as the forward part of the bomb bay was taken up by the cannon breeches and ammunition boxes. The FB Mk VI could also carry 8 rockets, under the wings.

One version, the FB XVII, carried a 57mm (6-pounder) gun in place of the normal armament. This was useful for putting holes in surfaced U-Boats from outside the range of the U-Boat's own AA weapons.

The Germans tried copying the Mosquito, but found they could not make a suitable glue. There were several versions of the Mosquito made in Canada and then used in Burma where the climate could not have been more different; some of these lost on operations may have come "unstuck", for the same reason.

Atfer the much-publicised fatigue failures of the de Havilland Comet in the 1950's, and a spectacular structural failure of a de Havilland Vampire at an air display, it was frequently observed that de Havilland never made an aircraft that didn't come unglued at some point in its service career. This isn't quite 100% accurate, but it contributed to a design leader slowly being relegated to a mere parts assembler.

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 06:23 PM

From This site , I find the following. Obviously my impression above was mistaken:



"A lot of you have been asking about this Duct vs. Duck thing we've got going... here is an explanation from Jim and Tim, the Duck Tape Guys:

Dear Duct Tape Users:

Is it Duct or Duck? We don't want you to be confused, so we will explain. The first name for Duct Tape was DUCK. During World War II the U.S. Military needed a waterproof tape to keep the moisture out of ammunition cases. So, they enlisted the Johnson and Johnson Permacel Division to manufacture the tape. Because it was waterproof, everyone referred to it as "duck" tape (like water off a duck's back). Military personnel discovered that the tape was good for lots more than keeping out water. They used it for Jeep repair, fixing stuff on their guns, strapping equipment to their clothing... the list is endless.

After the War, the housing industry was booming and someone discovered that the tape was great for joining the heating and air conditioning duct work. So, the color was changed from army green to the silvery color we are familiar with today and people started to refer to it as "duct tape*." Therefore, either name is appropriate.

Today, Duck® brand Tape is manufactured by Henkel Consumer Adhesives. After thoroughly familiarizing ourselves with the hundreds of duct tapes on the market, we have found Duck® brand Tape to be the most consistent in quality. And, we are delighted with the large array of colors that they manufacture (including camo tape and new "X-Treme Tape" which comes in hot day-glo colors).

Jim and I do lots of appearances promoting Duck® brand Tape and do so without reservation. Therefore, we go by both The Duct Tape Guys, and The Duck Tape Guys. And, we use the words Duck and Duct interchangeably throughout our web site.

So, whether you call it Duct Tape or Duck Tape... you are still using the "Ultimate Power Tool" in our estimation.

--- Jim and Tim, the Duck/Duct Tape Guys

Click here to learn about just how much duct tape Duck® brand company sells! It's absolutely AMAZING!
Note: To be legally called "Duct Tape" the tape must meet or exceed certain heat requirements.
Some Duck® brand Tapes do meet this classification and will tell you so on their label.

Murray

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:53 PM

Maybe they can use duct tape to stick the rudder back on Concord!!!!

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:39 PM

LOL, Patty! You got right to the heart of the matter!

Genie

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: pattyClink
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:24 PM

I still had 'dig a little deeper in the well' on my mind.

Stiiiiick a little duct tape on the wings, boys,
stick a little duct tape on the wings.
If you want this ol' plane to stay airborne,
you got to stick a little duct tape on the wings.

Caaaaann't afford to buy new parts, boys,
can't afford to buy new parts
golden parachutes took all the money,
you got to stick a little duct tape on the wings.

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:18 PM

OK, thanks Lyle, I just never encountered it there.

Murray

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM

There is a brand of DUCT tape sold in the States called DUCK tape.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

As far as I can see, having spent many hours in Home Improvement Centers on both sides of the pond, "DUCK" tape appears to be purely a British thing.

I never saw it referred to, labelled as, or advertised as anything but DUCT tape in the States. As well it might, since its main use was to repair ducts, as opposed to ducks.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be used to repair airplanes. The REAL stuff, that is, not the DIY crap available in the Homecenters.

Murray

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 03:53 PM

Hmmm ! An Aircraft - Glued together with a basis of Plywood and Balsa _ Naaah ! Never happened and if you believe that then Click 'Ere
Gareth

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 01:44 PM

Nice info, John B.

There's always Joel Mabus' classic "The Duct Tape Blues" which I know we've discussed and folk-processed before.

With a wing and a prayer,
Charlie Noble

Damn message refuses to post-5th attempt

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:45 PM

I work in the aicraft industry, received the following from a friend this morning. Probably explains eveything in a bit more detail than most people want. Never mind anyhow.
JohnB

Improper Use of Tape to Fix Wings May Lead to FAA Fine for United

By Don Phillips
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 4, 2002; Page E01

The Federal Aviation Administration said yesterday that it proposed an
$805,000 civil penalty against United Airlines, which is struggling to avoid
bankruptcy, for making improper wing repairs with tape on three Boeing 727s.
United said it will dispute the fine.

In an Oct. 7 letter to United, the FAA said the three aircraft were operated
for a total of 193 flights before being permanently repaired. At a maximum
$11,000 per violation, United would be subject to a fine of $2.1 million,
but the FAA said that "having considered all the circumstances in this case,
we would be willing to accept an offer in compromise in the amount of
$805,000 in full settlement of this matter."

United spokesman Joseph Hopkins said the airline will contest the fine
because "this is not an airworthiness issue." The planes were not unsafe and
no passengers were ever in danger, he said.

In each case, mechanics on March 2 used a special tape called "speed tape"
to repair holes in ground spoiler panels -- flat panels on the wings that
are raised into the wind stream as a plane lands to help keep the plane
solidly on the runway and to assist in braking.

While it's routine to use speed tape to make temporary repairs, in two cases
the holes being repaired were slightly larger than allowed by the United
maintenance manual, and all three were closer to the edge than allowed. The
manual allows use of the tape with holes no larger in diameter than 2 inches
and no closer to the edge of the panel than 3 inches. The three holes
measured 2.6 inches, 2.5 inches and 1.75 inches in diameter and were located
2 inches, 2.25 inches and 2.125 inches from the edge of the spoiler.

It is rare for an airline to pay a full fine in such cases. Usually, the
amount is negotiated down in consultation with FAA officials.


© 2002 The Washington Post Company

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:00 AM

Check out the Forum search, we have done many many riffs on duct tape. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:47 AM

"duct tape" comes in several brands and quality levels(depending on the fibers embedded, adhesive mix, etc.), so who knows, there might be a type suitable for aircraft!...but, as noted by Bob Bolton, gaffers tape is quite a different product (though related) Duct tape will leave nasty residue on floors, whereas Gaffers tape will come up cleanly

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:00 AM

What's wrong with using DUCK TAPE - you don't hear of many ducks crashing do you ?

And I'm sure that Geoff and his missus would aprove.

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:05 AM

Ever hear Paxton's "Thank you, Republic Airlines?" Or his even older one about waiting around the airport ("...I very carefully examined every corner of the airport/For the next fourteen hours or so...")?

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:00 AM

"Duct Tape Makes the World Go 'Round"... There, you got a name fir yer song... Have at it...

Bobert

p.s. DUCT TAPE RULES!

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:28 AM

I hate to break it to you but they USED to use.... fabric and GLUE! Vast sheets of it! Made whole planes ot of it! I know-- I can't believe it either!

In past threads, we've discussed (debated) what is duct tape almost as much and as thoroughly as what is folk music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:25 AM

My nephew, the ex-Marine aircraft repairer, was told that during the Gulf War they used dark green duct tape to hold the planes and copters together. Patch up the bullet holes with tape, reload and rearm, and refly.

Sounds like repairing aeroplanes in WWI!

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:01 AM

G'day Nigel,

Gaffer tape is named for the Chief Lighting Electrician lof a film crew (his offsider is "Best Boy"!) ... but is sure isn't duct tape!

Gaffer tape will hang a kilowatt movie light off a rough cast wall ... and it doesn't have a dark side - it is creamy adhesive one side and metallic silver the other ... and costs about 10 times as much (from Lowell Lighting Systems).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:31 AM

I believe "Duct Tape" was the original description, used for fixing ducting of various types, electrical or rain gutters etc.,
It seems that one firm has decided that "Duck Tape" ("The Original") sounds sufficiently alike that it will be thought that the derivation of this waterproof tape is the other way around. Of course, they are correct in claiming to be the original 'Duck Tape' as this term was previously only used as a misnomer.
"Gaffer Tape"; same stuff, used by (originally) chief electrician/technician in a film crew ("Gaffer" on the credits)

Badge (US=button) seen at a science fiction con:
"Gaffer Tape is like The Force; it has a Light Side, and a Dark Side, and holds the universe together!"

Nigel

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Schantieman
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 05:16 AM

Bloody painful I should think.

I thought it was called Duck tape? Brand name?

Steve

Subject: RE: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM

Think it may be common practice...Taping up planes, I mean. They use thin sheet alloy, aluminum (or aluminium,) self-adhesive, proof to 600MPH (I think I remember the figure.) They certainly will 'fix' faulty panel doors like this on other airlines. Do you know they call sticky-tape "Durex" in Australia? Truly the land of do-it-yourself.

Subject: Parody Urged:Fixing planes w/ DUCT TAPE!
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 12:44 AM

Just heard on the news tonight that United Airlines has been cited for repairing airplanes with duct tape -- not just for a quick fix in an emergency, but on a longer-term basis. (Can't imagine why they're headed for bankruptcy!)

Somebody's just GOTTA do a song about this!

SWO