BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA

Subject: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:46 PM

Well, road rage took a strang twist yesterday on the Washington, D.C. Parkway when an *angry young man* in a BMW shot out the rear window of a Mercedes almost killing its driver. Arrested, David Michael Keene, 21, son of David A, Keene who sits on the Board of Directors of the National Rifle Association.

Hmmmmmm?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM

...this makes me miss Little John. He would start a thread in the winter about guns and animals...but Bobert this is not a good topic, especially at Christmas. You made a mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:05 PM

Harpgirl:

Heck, it's only December 5th. Not the 20th. We're not even into the "Twelve days of Christmas" yet. I didn't choose the timing of this event. The shooter did! I think that any discussion that can bring about a better understanding of issues that Jesus would indeed be concerned about if He were walking among us in the Flesh, is a noble issue.

I am a pro-human Follower of Christ and concerned about an atmospheme of violence that has been furthered by the NRA. I'm sorry if you are offended. I'm sure that the guy who happened to almost get killed yesterday by a gun nut kid was a tad offended also.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: harpgirl
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

...goodluck, sweety! I've learned my lesson on this topic! Everyone knows what I think anyway!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:17 PM

I have less than nothing good to say about the NRA, except that they supposedly do give good gun safety classes, but this is WAY out in left field. The father was also probably a member of the Republican party, a believing Christian, a former Boy Scout, and a member of the Lions Club. So what? The link has about the same level of validity as pointing out that a violent person is a veteran or black, and thus painting all veterans or ethnic minorities with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:27 PM

A nut is a nut is a nut

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Genie
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:44 PM

While I disagree with the NRA on many issues, I'm reluctant to blame an entire organization/movement for the irresponsible actions of a few of its members/backers. That knife cuts both ways, you know. An evironmentalist who had worked to stop old growth cutting in (I think) the Opal Creek forest area of Oregon has just pled guilty to torching several logging trucks, and another guy who has been visible as a spokesperson for some environmental organizations is believed to have been involved, too. (While they may have intended only to destroy property, actions like that pose dangers to people, too.)

The NRA is no more reponsible for nuts in its membership than are anti-war or environmental organizations, unless the organizations advocate those irresponsible actions.

Happy holidays,

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 08:57 PM

Bobert, You need to get a life buddy. this forum is fantasy, fun, and music. You spend wayyyy too much time here, get out have a coffee and talk to humans in the park.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:06 PM

Forty-plus years back I was all in favor of the NRA. Now, well...I support their safety programs. I did support their support of the shooting sports in the Olympics, but that's been moved to another organization.

Too much politics and too much uninformed hot air on both sides for my taste. I don't like "They'll take my guns when they pull them from my cold, dead hands" any more than I like the blanket statements of the other side. Mostly, I don't like the uninformed, inflammatory reporting of gun incidents, such as this one is.

The "young man" has reached "the long-awaited one-and-twenty" and is "free to hang...at last. As an independent adult, what's the point of identifying him as the son of an NRA Board member? The son did it, not the father. And I'd feel the same way if the person was identified as a veteran, an African-American, an Irish-American, or whatever -- this reinforces stereotyping.

The issue is that an adult shot out the window of a car, endangering others by his actions. Arrest him, convict him if guilty, and punish him according to law.

And yes, I own firearms -- I've said so elsewhere. And no, I'm not a member of the NRA (the NMLRA, yes, but not the NRA).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:32 PM

I gotta agree with the majority here, Bobert. I strongly disagree with the casual disregard of general safety and the armed-to-the-teeth culture that the NRA advocates (although many individual members do not -- I used to be one of 'em), but I don't think it's fair to pin this one on the NRA. Maybe Dad will learn a lesson about fostering an attitude the guns are the solution... but I doubt it.

Of course, if junior had been brought up in a household of Mennonites, I doubt that he'd be shooting out windows from the driver's seat of his luxury car.

But he's an adult and presumably capable of reaching his own decisions, so the blame should sit squarely on his shoulders.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:34 PM

Excuse me... I guess that I have trodden into an area that is out of bounds fir Catfolk who don't have stripes on their sleves ot Cat-brass on their shoulders....

Ahhhh, to make a point that one kid, who has grown up around a man who has most likely preached right wing venon all his life, and decides that he has the right to try to kill someone because the guy happens to be in front of him in traffic, that this is out of bounds because of Christmas, Rhamadon or Rama-doma-ding-dong, is NUTS!

Yeah, as many of you Catfolk that want to jump on me, feel free. Have at it! You're no better than the kid! Think pro-human! Yeah, you think I'm pompous? You ought to bury yourselves in the New Testament.

All I try to do is bring pro-humanity to this forum. Check my posts and you will see that over the last year that I have been consistant in preachin' positive and pro-human ideals.

Yeah, if you want to line up on party lines, do it! But the point I have made here tonight is a valid point! Kids with redneck fathers generally turn into rednecks!

When we look at ways that we can bring mankind a little further down the road toward being civilized, even if it means takin' on the Big Boys, like the NRA, then it is our responsibility to do so. To do less is corrupt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 09:40 PM

Bobert, Bobert mah mannnnnn---


Maybe we should all do a little deep breathing for a sec, buddy.

You virtues are well known, and not in question.

It is possible you made an extrapolation based on the association with the NRA, and maybe the kid was unduly influenced by his Dad, but ya know what?? He might have been strictly taught proper gunhandling by his Dad and forgotten it all on a bad trip on angel dust, for all I know.

Anyway, I appreciate the point you are making, and ya dinna need to take it personal if the issue of NRA etc. has a number of sides and proponents and rancor associated with it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:13 PM

Thanks, Amos. As a former NRA memebr of good standin', I do have my issues with the organization that during memebership evolved from gun safety to gun ownership.

With that stated, it is *my opinion* that the folks left in the NRA are the redneck "gun ownership* folks who couldn't care less about *gun safety*. They have fought every attempt to get guns out of the hands of nutballs and violent people. Hmmmmmmm?

So I don't think that it is all that a monsterous step to surmise, that given the NRA is now nothin' more than *gun ownership* extremists that a kid of one of their board members might think its his God given right to not only carry a pistol in his car but also use it if he just happened to be *pissed off* by a guy in front of him that may (or may not) have had Gore sticker on the back of his car.

But what bothers me more tonight is the lining up of old Catters to take shots at me fir making these points. Yeah, talk about a Catbox "crucifixtion"?!?!?!?!?....

Wow. In a year of preachin' pro-human positions this ol' hillbuilly ain't been so universally attacked and, hey, it does seem to have a partisan feel about it.

So no one wants to go on record of saying the the NRA has methodically cornered and drowned folks who don't happen to like what they preach anymore. Tough!

If I stay around this joint, I will *NOT* knuckle under to the right winged members or those who, in the word os Rodney King, just want"to get along". These afre not times for getting along. We have a president who's lawyers stole democracy. We have big money ruling our government. We have so much anti-human policies that Jesus would be absolutely ashamed of what we have become.

That's been my story since I found this joint and it will be my story until they bury my poor ol' Wes Goinny butt...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:40 PM

Don't take it quite so personally, dear. There aren't any pro-gun folks in here taking punches at you. I just think in this case, it's a bit of a stretch to lay this one at the NRA's feet in blame.

I DO hope they convict this guy of a felony though. We'll see about prying his gun from his irresponsible hands at that point. "Road Rage" my butt -- it makes it sound like a mental disease instead of what it is -- attempted murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 10:49 PM

Hmmm... I suppose if we really wanted to, we could find out how many Rapists were connected to the ACLU or Arsonists with greenpeace... this could go on well into the New Year - but I hope you don't mind if I don't waste a lot of my time on it.

One observation I've made here (and I don't usually poke around in BS threads any more) is that when I first got onto MC about 3 years ago, anyone who wanted to rip into the NRA, ANY Republican, or any even remotely "Conservative" ideaology anywhere they wanted to - and "music" threads were as fair game as any - got nothing but acollades and applause. Any of us few-and-far-between dissidents who objected to or tried to counter any of this PC dominant diatribe were promptly given the old flame-thrower treatment on no uncertain terms! I remember plenty of times walking away from the 'puter with smouldering shorts!

At least now it seems that there is a lot more openness and common sense in these discussions - some of you who are certainly no fans of the NRA are nonetheless willing to point out an obvious attempt to stereotype an entire organization as well as it's membership.

Now if I want to discuss music, chances are pretty good that on a regular music related thread, that's what we are going to do, and not be sidetracked or hijacked by someone with a political agenda to grind.

I really appreciate that!

Oh; by the way, Mr. bobert; you say that you are "Pro-Human"; that's cool. Are you "Pro-Choice" as well?

As to the NRA; Our former hero of American Socialism, Herr Willheim J. Klinton, begrudgingly stated after his puppet Algore failed to steal... errr.. "win" the election, that the NRA probably cost them the White House.
Since the NRA had succeeded in turning a lot of Union Member votes away from their traditional affinity to the Democrat Party to Bush, he was probably right.

And that in itself earned the NRA my dues for many a year to come!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:02 PM

I grew up in a rifle-owning household with NRA sympathies. Not to bring back the endless debate - but I thought this study's conclusion was interesting.

"The study findings imply "that guns, on balance, lethally imperil rather than protect Americans," lead study author Dr. Matthew Miller of Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts, told Reuters Health.


"This inference is consistent with previous...studies that have found that the presence of a gun in the home is a risk factor for homicide, and starkly at odds with the unsubstantiated, yet often adduced, notion that guns are a public good," he added.


Miller and his team investigated the association between homicide and rates of household firearm ownership using 1988-1997 data collected from the nine US census regions and the 50 states.


They found that household gun ownership was linked to homicide rates throughout the nine census regions. At the state level, the link between rates of gun ownership and murder existed for all homicide victims older than age 5, according to the report in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health.


In fact, the six states with the highest rates of gun ownership--Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Wyoming, West Virginia and Arkansas--had more than 21,000 homicides, nearly three times as many as the four states with the lowest rates of gun ownership--Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New Jersey.


Further, people who lived in one of the six "high gun states" were nearly three times as likely to die from any homicide and more than four times as likely to die from gun-related homicide than those who lived in "low gun states," the report indicates. Their risk of dying in a non-gun-related homicide was also nearly double that of those who lived in states with the lowest rates of gun ownership. " Reuters December 5, 2002

Bobert, I tend to agree with those who object to tieing the young hoodlum to his father's beliefs- we have no way of knowing the man's history. On the other hand I agree that the tie is significant- if a young man is caught dealing coke and it is discovered that he has an Amish father, yeah, that is newsworthy. Just so.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Dec 02 - 11:23 PM

Thanks Ebbie, I'll take what I can at this point. No one, other than me, seems to look at the possibility/probabliltiy that livin' with a probable/possible right winged gun nut just *might* influence his young son's values. Hey, I don't think it's a stretch!

I live in a very backward area of West Virginia and I see the kids who act just like their fathers. If you were to poll 'em all, I reckon the kids would echo their father's opinions right around 99%.

Now, take a kid who comes from a family in which the father is a major player ina "political action committee" and I reckon that 99% figure goes up closer to 100%.

Like Nicold said, had it been a son of a Mennonite family, this probably wouldn't have occured...

I'm gonna rest my case here....

If the Catdom wants a gun in everyone's hand then we'll just have to take it from there...

Good Night,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:21 AM

Ebbie, thanks for posting the results of those studies. Having lived in Wyoming a lot of years, I am not surprised it was one of the top six. It seems anytime someone wants to get rid of someone they either take them hunting and have an "accident" or they just shoot them in the "heat of the moment." The worst case I remember was the 6th grader who got upset and worried about what his parents would say about is less than straight A grades, so he used his dad's hunting rifle to kill himself after school. And, a lot of the kids in Wyoming are NRA safety trained.

Bobert, I agree there is a strong correlation, usually, between the way a kid is raised and what actions they may take. I just didn't feel like getting into one more gun debate. IMO, by no means is the Mudcat full of people who want us all to have guns, I think a lot of us just got burned out on the debate.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:41 AM

Ebbie, while I won't dispute the good Doctors work without a good deal of statistical study on my part, my gut reaction is to say that anything that comes out of Harvard these days is suspect as far as I am concerned. They have taken political correctness to a ridiculus extreme in a few too many cases to be totally believable on a subject so emotionally charged as gun ownership.
Does anyone remember the book on gun ownership in colonial times that was in the news earlier this year? The author claimed that there was little gun ownership then as I recall. Then it was found that he'd "fudged" his data in order to prove his thesis.
My point is, just because it agrees with your ideas of how things ought to be, doesn't make it so.
Even if it comes from Harvard.
Or maybe especially if it comes from Harvard.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:55 AM

Ditto, Kat.

I got burned out as much by the constant unwanted mail from the NRA as from the silly blather ardent antigunners rant with.

I never knew that growing up in a fairly normal Wisconsin family where guns were typically accepted as part of our rural life was a political position.

Think; "tools". They have a purpose and when used out of that purpose they are used wrongly. It ain't rocket science. Carrying a loaded, accessible gun in a motor vehicle is both dumb and against the law. Doing anything about another motorist except to drive courteously and defensively in their presence is both dumb and against the law.

I used controlled substances once upon a time. One of my kids got hooked on speed. connection? Nope, because I stopped using or holding or being ANYWHERE near dope when we learned of her coming birth. She never even HEARD of my past use. She still did drugs. My point is: I doubt that kids accept what their parents promote. A kid that LISTENS to their folks? Not bloody likely, certainly not in MY experience. 99% huh? We live in similar environments, Bobert, that SURE don't sound like the kids around here.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:58 AM

Bobert: I'm not going to dump on you. I think you need help! Even in West Virginia there must be agencies that can provide counseling for someone who sees boogie men behind every cedar tree. Get some help man!

Uncle Jacque: do not be fooled by the lapse in vitrolic rheteric regarding the NRA from the usual suspects. They just aren't hungry at the moment, and Bobert is so off the wall on this one even they can't suppor his POV. Bobert has a fever. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:04 AM

You're being awfully cynical tonight, Doug. Having trouble untangling the Christmas lights?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:06 AM

So I guess the way Dumbya grew up with oil-rich parents, law-breaking pals and siblings etc. had nothing to do with the way he's turned out?

There is no denying that home environment can have a profound and lasting effect on children, well into adulthood. Ask any teacher, any law enforcement officer, etc. Sure, there are occassional anamolies (sp), but kids learn first from their families, including the way they handle conflict.

katwhoreallywishestherewerenogunsanywhere & wasraisedwiththem

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:31 AM

I don't think you can look at any studies and decide based on the results that they are the right and only answer. I believe that any study can be skewed to be the outcome you want. I just took a satisfaction survey at work. Most everyone is dissatisfied with things at the agency but this survey was impossible to answer negatively.

My Dad who taught me or supported me in everything worth knowing and doing was a life long Republican and at one time an NRA member. I never once heard him utter a venomous work. He taught me to shoot and I am quite proficient. He also taught me silversmithing. He taught me to have my say when ever I felt the need and to be polite about because I just might be wrong.   Every year he volunteered to help people get to the poles to vote. Even the Democrats

You just can't can't say that because a person is a gun owner, and NRA member and a republican that they are a dangerous loon who spouts propaganda and ppoisons his children.

I do think it is ironic that this kid is the son of an NRA boss. But he could have been the child of a Baptist minister or a the local librarian.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:57 AM

OK, all those takin' issue with the appropriateness of linking the public behavior of a 21 year old "Adult" drving a BMW ( not exactly raised in a household without priviledge ) to his father whom is also a board member of the Virginia headquartered NRA. ; y'all are missing the point entirely. Bein' a fellow Virginian allow me to make the point further
First one has to be pretty hardcore "pro-gun" and proven "rightwing" to even be "considered" for an NRA board position.
2nd is the hardcore "P.R." the NRA must apply to make their social relevence more "sellable" to the rest of the vast "non-believer" Americans : "Gun Safety". I mean that's the whole raison d' etre for their poster mascot ,Eddie Eagle ( not making this up ).
I guess it's about here that the concept of "Leading by Example" would occur to some right about now.
It kinda takes the "mosy bang for the buck" outta all that P.R. funding spent on promoting the best face forward when one of the NRA's board members has a 21 year old son , whom he has raised with all of the right wing baggage one must have been raised on in a household that results in a 21 year old owning a BMW.
Forget even trying to start a debate over "working hard for what he's got". This is Northern Virginia, suburb to Wash D.C. , & one of the top 5 wealthiest ,thus most priviledged, areas in the entire nation.

Bottomline : I'm glad the Rev Bobert posted this little slice of Virginia life because it's now going to be "locally" interesting to follow just how this 21 year old grun slinging , overgrown privilegded brat will be treated in court and what kind of judgement he will get. Will he be treated "equally before the law" for truly mindless attempted murder with a deadly weapon or will the NRA network find a pro-bono , NRA-emember lawyer whom will ,you know , "get him off".
Considering the recent "Beltway Sniper" incident that terrified this neighborhood ( how soon y'all forget ) somehow there just ain't enough hours of public service while on probation for just such an act of reckless *criminal* discharge of a firearm *in traffic* at another motorist to make this Virginian resident feel that justice would be served.

Such an idiot's license to "bare arms" should be immediately *revoked* along with his license to drive that BMW for he has clearly demonstrated total incompitence to handle either and ,yes, this does reflect badly on an NRA *board member* just the way it would if a 21 year old of the Drug Enforcement Task Force was found busted on Cocaine abuse ,or worse, trafficking.

And ,yes my Brit compadres and commadres , I have seenand enjoyed the original BBC production of "Traffik"on DVD


It's kinda like how the Bush daughters keep gettin' arrested for public misbehavior due to alcohol abuse. Knowing that *alcoholism* is a *genetic predisposition* one can wonder out loud about Pres. Dubya who ain't sayin' about what chemistry besides alcohol he was indulging in , but never owned up to, during his documented "wild youth" till he was 40. Considering his Daddy was already Vice President when ol' G.Dubya was in his mid-30's and havin' hisself one good ol' boy time "indulgin"
drinkin' and wenchin' and in what was commonly the drug of choice for every rich kid with a guaranted "get outta jail free card" because of "daddy's" priviledged "conncections" ,namely Cocaine.

Anyway , I guess y'all needed more of the in the trenches Northern Virginian perspective on this issue of "Guns & Responsible Driving".

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:30 AM

Heard on the radio this morning that the Federal Court of Appeals in California has determined that the 2nd Amendment doesn't cover gun ownership. Too bad that won't stick.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Martunes
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:49 AM

OK. After reading this thread I couldn't help but add my 2 cents.
From a careful reading of the posts and my general knowledge of the myriad subjects it includes I for one have come to the conclusion that....
ALL people suck.
The exact wrong species has gotten control of the planet.

Happy Holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:23 AM

Well Jesus Christ and General Jackson!!! I have got to start taking things more seriously........I have obviously gone over the edge.........Ya' see, I read Bobertz post and like Don Meixner, saw the irony and humor and not much more. I am as concerned about road rage as I am about anything else in the story and the NRA linkage I just found ironic and amusing! Everybody sure did come out though and go for the debate end instead.

Remember when Jimmy Carter was standing at the bottom of the steps of Air Force One, speaking about values of shared cultures in one of the middle east country he had just landed in? And brother Billy stepped around behind the nose wheel of AF1 and took a piss? Or Dubya preaching family values while his daughter got shitfaced? We are constantly confronted with these little sidebars and frankly I just find them kinda' humorous and don't really want to build a case around them one way or the other. Hellfire folks, somewhere in this story is a joke about hi-line German cars too.

I gotta' get more serious I guess..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

I have to question that "study" saying that states with high gun ownership have the most gun homicides. I live in a state that has more guns than people; a state that has one million human beings total, including women, children and republicans, and, there are 10,000 concealed weapons permits here, yet we have one of the very lowest homicide rates in the country.
Statistics can be manipulated; for instance, Vermont has the smallest number of blacks, yet it is the safest state of all. What does that prove? Now, before you start the flame war, I am simply quoting facts. Do what you will with them, I did not make them up.
Bobert ol' boy, you sure dropped a clod in the churn this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM

No need to bother with studies, just look at the numbers. The US averages 25,000 gun related deaths per year (that's about 15,000 murders, nearly all the rest suicides, and a couple thousand accidental shootings when the kiddies and/or Homer Simpsons get their hands on the guns.

Compare those numbers to any other nation, and you won't come remotely close to the US numbers, after adjusting for population difference.

The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm with Bobert and kat on this one. I know that not everyone raised with guns in conservative families will attempt to murder other drivers on the freeway when they get pissed off at them. But of those who do, and that is what we are discussing here, is one who did, the upbringing of the male (because it is men who commit these crimes) virtually always has been a factor. And I would say that power and dominance (two male luxury car drivers) had a whole lot to do with this incident as well. I will even go out on a limb to say that it is possible the driver of the other car may not have been totally innocent in this case either.

I also agree that Mudcat's membership has become much more conservative and reactionary than it was just a few years ago, as has the American public.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:07 AM

Well, thankie, Spawzer, fir seein' the original post fir what it was. Heck, I wasn't trying to "drop a clod in the churn", as Kendall says BUT did get a tad cranked up when it was brought to my attention that, well, being close to Christmas and all, I shouldn't be mentioning such stuff...

And thanks, Tal, fir yer support and bringing up the obvious (to the two of us anyway...) questions and curiosities that we have about how this kid id goping to be treated in the court system...

Lastly, as I have pointed out before, I am a *reponsible* gun owner having grown up with guns and in the NRA. One of the first things I learned in the NRA *safety classes* was never point a gun, loaded or unloaded at another person. Hey, one would think that is obvious but to a lot of folks it isn't. I find it sad that the NRA has changed its mission away from *gun safety* to *gun ownership*. In doing so, lots of *responsible* parents won't send their kids to learn *gun safety*, which alone would cut down on deaths by guns, for fear that their kids are going to get the rest of the NRA's right-winged indoctrination.

Doug: Thanks fir yer corn-cern about my mental health but I'm feeling just fine. We have snow and I'm off to work in my not-so-purdy M880 Army truck and the P-Vine is going with me today. Life is good...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:15 AM

It always strikes me that the quote "They'll take my guns when they pull them from my cold, dead hands" is a classic case of someone shooting themselves in the foot. I'm sure it must evoke an instinctive response "That might not be such a bad idea" from enormous number of people. Still I suppose it's not intended as a way of persuading outsiders, but of encouraging members.

It always seems strange that this devotion to guns in the States seems to be so associated with right wing politics. I'd have thought that if anything a devotion to the right of people to have guns is more liberal than anything. But in any case, other hobbies don't have any particular association with any particular variety of politics. There's foxhunting in this country - but even there the division of opinion is more to do with rural/urban than left right (and the overwhelming majority of people who support all parties are agreed in disapproving of the activity.)

Plenty of room for people to disagree with each other over this sort of thing (and no reason whatsover why such disagreements can't be friendly, so that there is no reason for people to feel they should need to walk around on tiptoes avoiding them). But what's it got to do with the kind of politics that is about how much people should earn and what taxes they should pay and how the good of the world should be apportioned among the human family.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:20 AM

It isn't the NRA's responsibility to teach children gun safety, and keep guns out of the hands of children. It is the job of parents to do that. No organization, regardless of it's philosophies, is responsible for irresponsible members.

If the government wants us all to have guns, then maybe the government ought to take responsibility for the whereabouts of those guns, and require gun safety classes for all owners and people who reside with them. The government is responsible for many problems related to gun ownership, and they ought to be changing laws to deal with those problems, just as is done with other social problems, like drunk driving and domestic violence. Although not much is being done about domestic violence either.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:38 AM

I hadn't heard about this news story. Couldn't find mention of it at the Washington Times site or the three major TV network news sites, but here's the article from the Washington Post (seems the shooting incident itself occurred last Sunday): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16459-2002Dec5.html

Friday, December 6, 2002; Page B02

VIRGINIA

Charge in car shooting: U.S. Park Police have arrested the driver of a gray BMW who allegedly fired into a blue Mercedes-Benz on the George Washington Memorial Parkway on Sunday, missing the other driver's head by inches, a spokesman said yesterday.

David M. Keene, 21, of the District was arrested Wednesday and has been charged in U.S. District Court with using a firearm during a crime of violence.

Park Police said the road rage incident erupted as the cars traveled north on the parkway near the exit for Route 123 in Fairfax County.

"This is serious -- even if the guy didn't get hurt," said Sgt. Scott Fear, a Park Police spokesman. Fear said the drivers had been passing one another on the roadway and one may have cut the other off.

The victim pulled over and jotted down the license tag number, and police located the car, Fear said.
----------------------------------

Can't find any mention anywhere of a connection between this guy and David A. Keene of the NRA. Bobert, where did you find the info that they are related?

As to the issue being discussed here, there may be a connection between the upbringing of a son of an NRA Board member and that son's willingness to break the law, attempt murder and endanger other drivers on the road. Then again, there may not be. Is the father a lawbreaker and a road-rage driver? Has the father ever tried to murder anyone? In other words, the only connection I see is the use of a gun... and there are certainly plenty of people out there who use guns to commit crimes yet have no connection to the NRA. On the other hand, there may be a connection between their crimes and their upbringing.

Without knowing more about this kid's home life and his attitude toward his father, we can't really say whether he's following in his father's footsteps or whether he's rebelling by using a gun in a way his father would disapprove of. (Assuming that the two Keenes are in fact related, I do hope that David A disapproves of David M's actions of last Sunday!)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 10:45 AM

Dondarlin'...the only difference is that a Baptist minister and/or librarians do not have careers which promote lethal weapons, at least not in most cases.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Declan
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:15 AM

I don't know much about this right to bear arms thing, coming from where I do where its illegal for most people to carry guns openly, although there are some who do and use them more frequently than anyone would like, mostly for either criminal or "political" motives. Their word - not mine.

It does seem to me however, that regardless of his upbringing or political affiliation, if he hadn't had a gun in his car he wouldn't have been able to shoot anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

Bingo! That's the thing, here is a guy driving around in a luxury car with a loaded weapon well within reach, to pull out and shoot at any driver he don't like the looks of. And after the DC sniper shootings, carrying guns in cars damn well ought to be an issue of enough importance to discuss here, bullshit Christian "Christmas" excuses be damned (we don't all worship Jesus, you know).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:30 AM

(quote)
"...as I have pointed out before, I am a *reponsible* gun owner having grown up with guns and in the NRA. One of the first things I learned in the NRA *safety classes* was never point a gun, loaded or unloaded at another person."

Rev.Bobert ,y'all just tripped a memory tripwire with that statement in regards to the friend whose townhouse I rent half of for my digital studio/homebase.
It has to do with his upbringing in Oklahoma with a father who later became , and is presently , in the F.B.I . as part of anti-terror security and presently serving. I've met him and he's as honest and no-nonsense direct yet not at all humorless nor lacking in his genuine friendliness as I'd ever want to meet. However ,according to his son and backed up by his kinder,gentler mother ,he was far more strict and could be sternly disciplinarian during formative years up through my friend's multi-year duty in the Navy aboard a nuke sub.
The point : Something different in the way "westerners" have passed along that quote of "Never point a point a firearm at someone ever". The way my friend , a peaceful yet devote "liberatrian" computer-geeker , described how his father raised him and his brother about responsible gun-ownership with the alteration of that phrase caught my ear: QUOTE
" Never point a firearm at someone unless you intend to take a life ".

Now I can appreciate the sort of frontier pychology/culture involved here and could see ol' Sherrif Andy Taylor of Mayberry sayin' this to Opie as to mean that you shouldn't point a gun at all at a person at all becuase you take on the power of life and death over another the moment you do.
BUT , in these violent times where there are more murders comitted in passion amongst neighbors/lovers/relatives than in the act of a crime ( not counting the always tragic accidents ) one can understand how I was chilled to the bone to hear the uprasing of generations of gun-totin' kids, perhaps not so West of the Mississippi , hearing " Never point a firearm at someone unless you means to take a life " instead of "Never point a gun , PERIOD, at another person." being reinforced .

To my ear *nothing* is lost in the translation and this *wild west* frontier culture promoting too easily being able to take the life of another human just doesn't ring right with me. That's the type of advice you give a fellow *law enforcement* or *military* recruit and *not* a civilian minor.

And the N.R.A. has a proen track record of acting as a central clearing house of just such *militia-sympathizer* libertarian wingnuts whom we ocasionally hear of declaring themselves as sovereign "Freemen" obsolvoing themselves of owing any taxes to the Fed and all of the Arian Nation "wrong crowd" that undeniably intermingles.
I guess if one *not* obsolve the Saudi's for tolerating ,when not outright supporting ,terrorist networks from within their own then one can *not* obsolve the N.R.A. for whom they tolerate in their ranks just to maintain politically effective membership numbers.

what's buckshot for the goose is certainly buckshot for the gander.
Case closed ;-)

Next.......

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:41 AM

Tsk, tsk......GUEST.........Matriot....you were doing so well. I have been watching your posts lately, and you have been engaging, and with great intellect, and I have even learned a few things. But then you just have to attack what others find sacred. "Bullshit christian"..........is that really necessary?

In order for that "fact" to have merit, you would have to show the number of people who carry weapons that don't ever do anything like this. It is demagogic to really on stories like this instead of sound data. I travel over 60,000 miles a year in an automobile, in a state that has a "shall issue" license to carry a concealed weapon. I never had a weapon pulled on me, but I have experienced many road ragers. I even had one actually bump my rear bumper at 75 miles per hour. If those people simply hadn't had a car, then this would never have happened, right?

Declan, your observations are fair enough. The simple fact is that guns are a part of our culture from the very earliest times straight through to the present. It is not as simple as "if we didn't have 'em, this wouldn't happen". The anti gun folks arguments lack logic, are almost alway based on emotion and never on stats. Their arguments ignore the times guns have saved lives, the amount that are owned and used responsibly, the fact that in states where gun ownership is least restricted the violent crime rate is usually much lower, etc.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Declan
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Big Mick,

US Laws are US laws and are not really any of my business, but sometimes a dispassionate outsider can help to put a debate into some sort of perspective.

I don't think I'd fit in very well with your culture in any event since I have never owned (or wanted to own, at least since I was a small child) either a car or a gun.

But I understand why this man had a car !

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:05 PM

Guns Don't Kill People...




Oh wait a minute...   




YES THEY DO!



Never mind, Sorry , Forget I said anything.




Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:15 PM

Happiness is:

A Warm Gun www.thewarmguns.com/audio/music.htm
Tykes with Guns tykeswithguns.whiteh0use.net/songs.html
Young Guns www.ibizwa.com/kimberleydreamtime/younguns.htm
Top Guns topgunsinc.com/MusicVideo.html
I Got the Guns www.plaza101.com/plaza/store/shop3931/pdB00006LI2F/Online/Music/Country/

grunks with guns www.gnoosic.com/discussion/grunks+with+guns.html offers us info on:

nuns with guns
Midgets with Guns
Blue Baby and the Hired Guns
Stick Men with Ray Guns
Drunks with Guns
Girls with Guns
Cows with Guns

We Americans just love our guns, guns, guns!!! And our bombs, bombs, bombs!!! And our nukes are GOOD nukes, but everyone else must have NO NUKES! And if you got nukes we gave you that we want back now , then we will NUKE YOU TOO!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:30 PM

Folks, the fact is America has a problem with guns. There are plenty of places that have lots of guns that don't have a problem with kids shooting each other and gun battles on the highway.

I personally don't think it's the guns that are the problem. I think it's the "cold dead hands" mentality that idolizes guns and worships them as a source of freedom.

If someone has an alcohol problem, you keep them away from alcohol. If they have a drug problem, you keep them away from drugs. The quickest solution might be to take the guns away, but given the history of the disease it would probably make it worse (evil government trying to take my freedom to shoot other people!)

Dunno, folks. Of crouse, in my household, the gun safety phrase was, "Honey, if it's important enough to shoot somebody, it has to be important enough to kill 'em."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:42 PM

Americans also have an increasing problem with using their cars as deadly weapons. When you bring the two together, you can just imagine how sexy the CNN/Fox/MSNBC triumverate might find it. EXCEPT when it is one of their own tootin their luxury car horns and totin their guns, eh?

This is a story tailor made for the right wing nut media. Wonder why they aren't making this one a national media story?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:44 PM

Oh, sorry. Fox News must have been too busy covering the Whitney interview and the Winona Ryder trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:51 PM

Still can't find anything that says definitively that David M is the son of David A, but I did find a couple of references to David M as the "director for on-line communications" (i.e. webmaster) for the American Conservative Union, of which David A is chairman and Diana Keene is Administrative Director (who's Diana? David A's wife or daughter or what?). Here's a page listing David M's position: http://www.conservative.org/ActionNet/10112002.htm

Here's the June 15, 2002 edition of Chuck Muth's News & Views, which heralds the ACU's new website created by "in-house webmaster" David M: http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg00033.html

Interestingly, the ACU website's "Pressroom" does not include an article on David M's arrest (no surprise here, regardless of whether it's the same David M). Mostly, the pressroom consists of news blurbs bashing Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 12:58 PM

Or is David M's daddy the reason why this story has been censored? Here is the American Conservative Union's biography of daddy boy:

David A. Keene is Chairman of the American Conservative Union, the Nation's oldest and largest grassroots conservative organization. He also serves as a Lobbyist with The Carmen Group, a governmental affairs and legislative relations firm based in Washington, DC.

Mr. Keene is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin Law School. He has been a John F. Kennedy Fellow at Harvard University and is a former member of the Board of Visitors of the School of Public Policy at Duke University. He was a visiting professional scholar at the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University.

Mr. Keene's political experience is extensive. He has been involved in presidential politics since 1968. He worked in the White House during the Nixon Administration as political assistant to Vice President Spiro Agnew and on Capitol Hill as Executive Assistant to Senator James L. Buckley.

As Southern Regional Coordinator for Ronald Reagan in 1976 and National Political Director for George Bush in 1980, Mr. Keene won recognition for his skill as a political organizer and strategist. Additionally, Mr. Keene was a senior political consultant to Republican presidential candidate Robert Dole in 1988 and was an informal advisor during the 1996 campaign.

He has written extensively on U.S. politics and is a regular guest on political talk shows and news segments. He currently writes a regular column for The Hill, a newspaper covering Congress.

As the head of the American Conservative Union, Mr. Keene is an ideal guest for dialogue on Presidential and Congressional campaigns as well as commentary on the issues of the day from a conservative perspective.

Mr. Keene is available to engage in discusion and debate with government officials or others, and to serve as guest Host on Radio and Television programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

SharonA, we seem to be crossing streams here! And here is what the good ole Union say it works hard for:

Over the years, ACU has been on the cutting edge of major public policy battles. Among ACU's significant efforts, past and present, are fighting to keep OSHA off the back of small businesses, opposing the Panama Canal giveaway, opposing the SALT treaties, supporting aid to freedom fighters in Marxist countries, promoting the confirmation of conservative Justices to the Supreme Court, battling against higher taxes, and advocating the need for near-term deployment of strategic defenses.

In 1994, through its Citizens Against Rationing Health coalition, sponsorship of national "town meetings," and a "Health Care Truth Tour," ACU spearheaded the conservative response on the health reform issue.

Whether fighting for lower taxes and less government spending, more effective and efficient military protection, or the cause of freedom world- wide, by speaking for the entire conservative movement the American Conservative Union is always "Your Conservative Voice in Washington."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:02 PM

"Or is David M's daddy the reason why this story has been censored?" Could be, GUEST, could be. Maybe that's why I can't find any local-news articles that mention a relationship between the two. Just how much "pull" does this David A guy have, anyway??? Oh, wait... conservative... Republican... Dubya... never mind. Silly me!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:21 PM

I've no doubt Big Mick knows how to pick out which GUEST is which, but it's a pretty neat trick to be able to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:28 PM

Here is some more info on Papa Keene, from a Crossfire/CNN webpage where he interviewed John Ashcroft:

Currently chairman of the American Conservative Union, David A. Keene began his involvement in presidential politics in 1968 when he served as political assistant to Vice President Spiro Agnew. He went on to serve in the campaigns of Ronald Reagan, George Bush and Bob Dole. Keene also serves as president of the Washington, D.C.-based political consulting firm of Keene/Halper Associates and as a lobbyist for The Carmen Group, in addition to publishing his own political newsletter, "The Keene Report."

And if it is God & guns you are seeking, you can read more about Daddy Boy through the Seek God website (a Christian Top 1000 website!) which gives fairly detailed bios of The Council for National Policy: (Daddy Keene is down the page a ways):

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.ijk.htm

And from the ACU website itself, here is what Our Fearless Leader has to say about the Daddy Boy:

"I'm grateful to David Keene and the members of the ACU from coast-to-coast for all of their help this year. The ACU has been an invaluable partner in advancing our compassionate, conservative agenda." – President George W. Bush (ACU's website)"

I found that quote at the People for the American Way website.

And from Chuck Muth's gopnewsandviews website, we have this information on Baby Boy David M.:

"For historians of key votes, the American Conservative Union's new website is a dream come true," reports Michael Gerber in this week's The Hill column. "The conservative group's new site, launched this week at www.conservative.org, includes a database of congressional ratings that goes back more than three decades, as well as up-to-the-minute headlines" provided by CNSNews. The new look and feel was crafted by ACU's in-house webmaster, David M. Keene, with the expert assistance of the fine folks at Hockaday/Donatelli Campaign Solutions."

Gee, I can't IMAGINE how or why this story is being hushed up! All those Good Christian Republicans and Their Children Who Hold All Power in Washington and Fairfax couldn't have had anything to do with it, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

SharonA - yah, I'd say that Daddy Keene sitteth at the right hand of The Godfather in the White House, whose clout doth reacheth all the way to the US Park Service in God's Country (known to the paeans as Fairfax County).

Like I said, when the DC shooter is the son of one of THOSE good ole boys, that daddy's name ain't gonna be mentioned on the Fair and Balanced O'Reilly Factor.

Subject: BS: Calling all Conservative Catters...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM

Well, it seems that the right wing media isn't so fair and balanced after all. This Washington Post story (conveniently buried on the crime report page) is about the son of the American Conservative Union's Chairman David A. Keene shooting another driver in Fairfax County, has obviously been censored by the mainstream media.

CRIME & JUSTICE

Friday, December 6, 2002; Page B02

VIRGINIA

---

Article deleted - same as above (click)
-Joe Offer-

---

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Now, where are is all the conservative outrage on this one? Here is a cover-up that actually put someone's life in mortal danger, so where all you gun lovin' compassionate conservatives standing on this one? Is it JUST FINE for the story of this boy's alleged attempted murder to get buried, just because of his daddy's connections?

C'mon all you Republicans and libertarian conservatives...let's see what you have to say about this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM

Sharon -- news report linking David M. to David A. here:
http://www.nbc4.com/news/1822195/detail.html

Subject: RE: BS: Calling all Conservative Catters...
From: GUEST,Dittohead
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

"Calling All Conservative Catters?"

You mean both of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM

Thanks very much, Nicole! Strange... I had visited the NBC4 website and searched for the keyword "Keene", but I did not get any hits at all about the shooting.

Okay, well, so much for the David A squelching theory. Good; I'm glad to see that the guy doesn't have that much influence!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

This is from the local NBC affiliate, NBC4, website:

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1822195/detail.html

Suspected Parkway Shooter Arrested
Suspect Is Son Of Gun Rights Activist

POSTED: 3:35 p.m. EST December 5, 2002
UPDATED: 3:40 p.m. EST December 5, 2002

WASHINGTON -- News4 has learned the son of a gun activist was arrested Wednesday night and charged with an apparent road rage shooting on the George Washington Parkway.

Police believe David Michael Keene, 21, shot a gun from a BMW on Sunday afternoon. The bullet shattered the window of a Mercedes Benz and became lodged in the driver's seat, just inches from the driver's head.

Police believe Keene and the driver of the Mercedes were involved in a road rage incident along the George Washington Parkway just before the shooting happened. The driver of the Mercedes managed to get the license plate number of the BMW and report it to police.

Keene appeared in an Alexandria, Va., court Thursday afternoon. He was charged with use of a firearm during a crime of violence. A conviction carries a mandatory sentence of at least 10 years behind bars.

News4 has learned Keene is the son of David A. Keene, who is on the board of directors for the National Rifle Association. Keene is also a conservative political consultant and lobbyist who has worked in the White House and in Congress.

* * * * * * *

The website also has links to these stories about the "incident".

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1814635/detail.html

Police: Bullet Misses Driver's Head By Inches
Road Rage Incident Has Police Asking For Help

POSTED: 1:29 p.m. EST December 2, 2002
UPDATED: 8:28 p.m. EST December 2, 2002

WASHINGTON -- Police said an angry motorist fired a gun at another car on the George Washington Parkway, and the bullet hit the driver's seat, just missing the driver's head by inches. The driver was not hurt.

Scott Fear of the U.S. Park Police said the altercation involved a blue Mercedes Benz and a gray BMW. The two cars were driving nourthbound near the Route 123 exit when the incident happened around 2 p.m. Sunday.

Fear said, "The two went back and forth a little bit. One driver got upset, and the way we understand it is, he shot through the rear windshield of this [the blue Mercedes] vehicle, and the bullet struck the driver's seat."

Now police want to talk to the driver of the BMW and to anyone who was traveling in the area between 1:45 and 2:15 p.m. Sunday. The BMW had four doors and a Maryland registration and police believe it may have been a 3-series model. Fear said a white man was driving and a white woman was in the passenger seat.

Police ask anyone with information about the incident to call [phone].

The parkway was closed for northbound for about an hour on Sunday while police investigated the incident.

* * * * * * *

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1817696/detail.html

Police Find Car Suspected In Parkway Shooting
Police Expect Arrest Soon

POSTED: 4:51 p.m. EST December 3, 2002
UPDATED: 6:14 a.m. EST December 4, 2002

WASHINGTON -- Police have found the BMW that they believe was involved in a road rage shooting Sunday afternoon on the George Washington Parkway.

A man was driving a Mercedes on the parkway between Key Bridge and Chain Bridge and slammed on his brakes when a BMW passed him.

Police said the Mercedes then passed the BMW, and the driver of the BMW fired a shot into the rear window of the Mercedes.

The bullet hit the driver's seat.

No one was injured.

Police found the BMW on Tuesday. Officers expect to find the driver soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM

SharonA, you can't be serious? You don't think this story is being censored?

COME ON!!!

In the wake of the DC sniper shootings, northbound George Washington Parkway in Fairfax County is closed for ONE HOUR AFTER A MOTORIST IN A MERCEDES BENZ IS SHOT AT ON DECEMBER 2, and we don't hear SQUAT ABOUT IT UNTIL DECEMBER 5, and only then through LOCAL MEDIA?

Give me a break. The cops had Baby Keene's name the minute they had the license plate number with the car registration--which would have been almost IMMEDIATELY, and this story is only floating to the surface in LOCAL DC MEDIA THREE DAYS LATER?

Hooeeeey! Your idea of censored story and mine are obviously pretty different. David A. Keene worked in the NIXON WHITE HOUSE! He worked on the election campaigns of Reagan, Bush I, and Dole!

Next thing people will be claiming the story isn't "newsworthy".

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:30 PM

Also, I'd like to suggest that Mudcat elves allow a new thread to open up on this story. The big news here isn't that this guy has connections to the NRA. The big news is, this shooter has connections all the way to the fucking White House. How about we split the difference, and rename the thread to more accurately portray the way this story is evolving, or the special someone who closed the "Calling all Conservative Catters" thread gives us some information on how they are going to deal with the changing nature of the story with these threads?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM

I'm glad those threads were closed -- we don't need several threads to discuss the same thing. Discussions evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:58 PM

Oh for Christ sake. We can have 800 thousand "What did the _____ ever do for us" threads, but Mudcat can't tolerate more than one thread on this topic?

How many threads did we have on the DC snipers?

Seems to me the Mudcat censors are going WAY beyond normal thread consolidation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:59 PM

Oh I forgot. Mudcat censors don't allow certain guests to post BS threads with controversial political content.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

Mudcat censorship aside, I take your point about media censorship, GUEST. What I meant was that I'm glad to see that the link between David M and David A wasn't kept completely out of the press as I had mistakenly thought it was.

I don't agree that the story should have made major national headlines simply because it happened in the wake of the DC sniper shootings. This was clearly a road-rage incident. Judging from the NBC article, the guy in the Mercedes was not the sort of innocent bystander who was shot by the sniper; rather, he appears to have been the instigator of the road-rage game (that's still no excuse to shoot at him, though!).

Frankly, I'm not sure that the story merits national attention. Okay, the guy's son turns out to be an asshole. Does that mean that the guy himself has to be dragged through the mud for it all over the country? As has been pointed out here, David M is legally an adult, so he is responsible for his own actions and he will pay the consequences. He could have had a long and illustrious career following in his father's footsteps, but he blew it all for one moment's satisfaction of feeling a gun go off in his hand, just because he got pissed off at somebody for playing highway leapfrog.

All the same, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will keep a close eye on David M's future actions and career moves to ensure that his daddy doesn't make this crime go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM

A view from across the pond.

As a European, I'm constantly amazed at the depth of feeling on this issue. Obviously, I don't have the same cultural upbringing, but I still have to shake my head in disbelief.

Yes, statistics can be misused, but there's overwelming evidence that societies with more guns have higher murder/suicide rates.

The 'guns don't kill, people do' is clearly absurd. To extrapolate that, why inspect Iraqs 'weapons of mass destruction'? After all, they can't kill anyone by themselves...

Glad that I live in Europe.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:08 PM

Everyone CALM DOWN!

         PUT YOUR MOUSE DOWN!

         STEP A_WAY FROM YOUR KEYBOARD!

         DON"T MAKE ANY SUDDEN MOVEMENTS>

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

P.S. – If anyone disagrees with me and feels that the story does merit national attention, I would advise contacting the national media (TV networks, newspapers, news services, etc.) through their websites and urging them to give the story the attention you think it deserves, instead of simply complaining on this obscure site about what they're not reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:14 PM

Well SharonA, first I would say that the son of a Washington power broker and media pundit of Papa Keene's magnitude shooting at other drivers from his BMW on the George Washington Parkway on a Sunday afternoon on Thanksgiving weekend is PLENTY newsworthy for the national media to pick up.

The more I research this story online, the more I see how much this story is being censored even in the local DC media. The ABC affiliate still hasn't reported who the shooter was, or followed up the story at all, despite the fact that he was arraigned in the Alexandria courthouse yesterday. It isn't like there aren't any national media people in the area, after all.

Now, I am trying to imagine the same scenario happening where I live, where every road rage accident is MAJOR local news here. If this story had been local to where I live, it would have been on the local news every single night this week. First the report of the shooting on Sunday. Follow up stories, and the request for information about the occupants of the shooters car on Monday. Story about the car being found on Tuesday. Story about the arrest of the suspected shooter on Wednesday. Arraignment of suspected shooter, and the information released that he is the son of one of the most prominent political pundits with connections to the White House.

This would be a HUGE local news story here.

For this to not even get a passing mention on ANY national media website is chilling.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:27 PM

GUEST: Remember that it took a few DC sniper shootings before the story received national attention? The shootings that occurred in September weren't linked to the snipers' spree for quite some time. This is DC we're talking about, where a lot of crime happens and a lot of it is perpetrated by people who are linked in one way or another to politics. Using that perspective, one idiot's road-rage shooting is small potatoes.

But, again, if you disagree, write to the media and complain. Why not start with ABC: http://abcnews.go.com/service/help/abccontact.html

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

Bobert: I think your title for this thread is a pretty far stretch. It would be a bit like you're doing something wrong (hard to imagine I know) and the headline in the paper reading, "Bobert does something wrong and he's linked to the Baptist Church!" Assuming you are a Baptist, of course.

Being a member of an organization does not necessarily link you to it. You're just a member.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:52 PM

DougR, I agree. The fact of this story is that the alleged shooter works for the American Conservative Union, which is chaired by his father, a former White House and Senate aide, and now one of the most influential conservative Washington lobbyists, who often appears as a conservative political commentator on many news and talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:44 PM

Troll:

RE Harvard. There is no such thing as politically correct science. If it at all comprehends political correctness in it's results, it ain't science. Science must withstand peer review and reproduction regardless of the investigators' (or reviewers', reproducers') politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM

Well, Dougie, my friend, I'm real sorry that you didn't like the thread title. Ahhhh, I didn't realize that it was gonna get so much attention or I certainly would have *considered* running it by you first. (HEY, I didn't say I'd actually do that only that I would *consdier* doing it...)

So, what I want to know is why it took from Sunday night until yesterday, some four days later, for this kid to get arrested? I mean like Nixon had the 18 minutes of missing taped conversation but 4 days when they had the tag number?

See, if one of Bill Clinton's buddies had this little *4 day lapse* then it would have cost the American taxpayers about $40M of Ken Starr investigations. I hope this is not lost on those of you have been all to quick to call Clinton *puss bags* and worse. Like this kid attempted to murder someone and had he aimed a few inches to the roght wouls have accomplished his intent and then you have a tumbling Mercedes looking for other innocent victims.

Well, Boss Hog has had four days to work on their damage control and get their PR up to speed, but this is definately a bad deal going down...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:12 PM

(quote)
"Being a member of an organization does not necessarily link you to it. You're just a member....."
DougR.

Sorry Doug R, but it just that simple.
The father of the miscreant shooter of a son that he had raised
with the usual "conservative values" was not "just a member" ,but a prominant board member and not just anyone can ascend to the board of the arch-conservative N.R.A.

I find it odd that you don't see the obvious failure of "leading by example" principal.
First that the father "is" responsible for the sons they let loose on the rest of society and the proof will be who pays the lawyer fees ,whom pulls the political connections to get a favorable judge ,and whom can keep it out of the media coverage.
I doubt this 21 year old rich white trash can pull this out of the fire all on his own. Keene Sr. will want "his reputation" protected.

No way around it. This incident is a genuine black eye to the so-called "gun safety advocacy" that the NRA promotes.
Maybe it would make the news if someone shot the NRA's Eddie Eagle ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM

So, if he had not had a gun in his car, he would not have fired it at the guy in the Mercedes. Ok, that;'s a no brainer. But, it doesn't address the REAL problem. ATTITUDE! Every police officer, game warden, corrections officer etc. carries a gun in a vehicle; Why don't THEY get involved in road rage? Because they know better! It starts in your head..not in your hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:44 PM

Kendall:

Ahhhh, sometimes the cops do get a tad carried away. Though the Prince George's, MD, police department is well know for shooting first and asking questions later there is a case where one of the undercover guys mistakenly tailed a guy into Virgina, cornered him with his car around 2:00 in the morning and shot the man dead in his car. Opps, wrong guy? Sorry...

I agree with you though that it is very much about ATTITUDE and this kid, according to news reporst this evening, has a healthy attitude problem...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

Stupid young men do vicious and irresponsible things in all countries, including the sons of powerful people; and the powerful people pull strings to cover it up.

That's not surprising. The surprising thing is when normally honourable people appear willing to condone that kind of thing when it's someone whose politics they share, while they'd never do that, if it was someone whose politics they didn't share. Regardless of the colour of the politics involved (and it could be any colour - Red, Blue, Orange, Green...), that's just not right.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:29 PM

I'm with you, McGrath. Now I'm not much of a Clinton fan myself, you know being of Green persuasion an all, but GWB has gotten a complete PASS from the media, the Dems and American people.

Had this occured in the middle of *PICK-A-GATE* during which Clinton was attacked by the wealthy side of the right wing if he forgot to use his hair conditioner. Fast forward to this and...well... nothing! Zip!

Hey, I'm not sayin' that Bush even knows this kid 'cause he probably doesn't but that's not the point I'm making. Why the *PASS*? Where are you who howled every time the Clinton burped for "impeachment" tonight? Hey, I think that's a fair question.

Doug? Troll? Teribus? Pick-a-GUEST?

And like I've said, it will be an interseting trial...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:22 PM

TIA, I don't believe I used the word "science" anywhere in my post on Harvard. Statistics can be and are manupulated every day to "prove" any number of things. To quote I believe it was Mark Twain; "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
To rephrase my earlier statement, I tend to take anything that comes out of Harvard (among others) with a grain of salt.

troll

PS, That's "troll" with a lower case "t" if you don't mind.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:09 AM

Figures don't lie. Liars figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:16 AM

I haven't read this thread and I don't intend to. They're all the same. However, I just read a note received by a webmaster at another site I visit and thought, gee, I wonder if this could lead to a case of road rage.....

I went to the store the other day, and I was in there for only about 5 minutes. When I came out there was a damn motorcycle cop writing a parking ticket. So I went up to him and said, "Come on, buddy, how about giving a girl a break?"
He ignored me and continued writing the ticket. So I called him a pencil-necked Nazi. He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn tires! So I called him a piece of horse shit. He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing a third ticket! This went on for about 20 minutes.
The more I abused him, the more tickets he wrote.
I didn't care. My car was parked around the corner.
I try to have a little fun each day. It's important.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 09:52 AM

Isn't it obvious this boy is going to get off with a slap on the wrist? First, the judges will all be in Republican pockets in the jurisdiction he was arraigned in--Alexandria. Second, if the cops didn't get around to arresting him until four days after the incident, don't you think it just might have been to give everyone time to prearrange the outcome?

Bobert, since there is no news about this, but you seem to be privy to some local tv coverage, could you keep us updated? I have contacted the major TV network news departments to provide information from the NBC4 station, and ask why their network news divisions aren't covering the story (I contacted ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN & Fox). I haven't heard a peep from a single one of them.

I am interested to know if any charges have been filed against the passenger in Keene's car for not coming forward with information on the shooting? And also Bobert, if you know the date of the next court date? I'm curious to hear about the "attitude" problem you mentioned. And I'm also wondering if the other driver has appeared in the local media to tell his side of the story?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 12:39 PM

Bobert, we are talking about road rage here, not chicken shit cops doing their duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 02:04 PM

You know, if this incident had happened anywhere else but in a car, what crime would the alleged shooter be accused of? Well, it always depends on the circumstances and what the DA's office believes it can prove. This was, at the least, an assault with a deadly weapon, possibly attempted murder.

I think people's responses to this shows a desensitized view of this act of violence. How would any of us like it if, while driving down the freeway on a Sunday afternoon, someone pulled out a gun and shot out our back window, with the bullet lodging in our seat, inches away from our head? Would we be so dismissive of the violence, as many here seem to be in this case, if it had happened to us, or one of our loved ones or friends or work colleagues? There is a difference between "aggressive driving" which constitutes dangerous driving tactics which are traffic offenses, and "road rage" which constitutes criminal behavior with vehicles, and in this instance, a loaded gun. This is the most serious crime we see on the nation's roads--when someone uses either their car, a gun, or both, to commit an act of violence against another driver.

The other aspect of this story I would like to discuss in a separate thread, which apparently the Mudcat censors won't allow us to do, is not the gun control/NRA aspect of this story, but the facts surrounding who the alleged shooter is, and the whys and wherefores of this story being censored by the national media. The latter facts are much more interesting to me, and I would hope, to people concerned with the ways such stories typically get buried by the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:28 PM

Here are some fun mental excercises...
What would be the reaction of, oh for instance Limbaugh et. al if
1) the son of a prominent PETA member was photographed wearing a mink
2) the son of a prominent gay rights activist was arrested for exposing himself to a child
3) the son a labor organizer was found to be running an overseas sweat shop
4) the son of a prominent environmentalist killed a dolphin with his jet ski
5) the daughter of a prominent feminist joined a beauty pageant....
You get the idea.
The braying would be deafening! The big Mr. L would never say "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Uh-uh, the line would definitely be "see what hypocrites these people are".



(By the way troll --sorry about the previous capitalization--, bad statistics are lies, but they never survive peer review and replication. And you're right, you did not use the word science, but statistics are used to make conclusions scientific).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 06:08 PM

Kendall: Sorry, pal. The brain fades on this poor ol' hillbilly at times fir no apparent reason other than the 60's and I get myself sidetracked.

GUEST: Yeah, I'll keep an eye or two on this one. What I heard last nigh on Channel 4 was a report from the kid's girlfriend and she stated, according to the report, that Keene Junior had a bad temper.

The Washington Post is avoiding this story as if it were a radiation pit. Hmmmmmm?

I didn't catch the name of the attorney that Keene's father has hired but the report mentioned that Monika Lewinski is a former client...

And the beat goes on...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:19 PM

Here are some fun mental excercises...
What would be the reaction of, oh for instance Limbaugh et. al if
1) the son of a prominent PETA member was photographed wearing a mink
2) the son of a prominent gay rights activist was arrested for exposing himself to a child
3) the son a labor organizer was found to be running an overseas sweat shop
4) the son of a prominent environmentalist killed a dolphin with his jet ski
5) the daughter of a prominent feminist joined a beauty pageant....
You get the idea.
The braying would be deafening! The big Mr. L would never say "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Uh-uh, the line would definitely be "see what hypocrites these people are"

Yes, but...the opposite side of that point is that all the knee-jerk liberals on the mudcat would then start saying "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Whereas the initial point of this thread seems to be that the action of this kid somehow invalidates the NRA. If I understand correctly.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 08:26 PM

Yeah, Peter, that's about it!

No, but really, the NRA invalidated itself a long time ago when it was taken over by a right wing that is more concerned with marketing as many guns and bullets than gun safety. Their choice! Hey, don't belive me. There has been much written over the last 20 years about folks leaving the NRA over their altra conservative politics while others joining fir the same reasons.

They don't give a danged *WHO* owns a gun as long as they own one, or two... or forty three.

And this is from a gunowner and former NRA member...

So, yeah, Peter, you got it right...

Heck, the NRA folk ganged up on Bill Clinton every time he sneezed without covering his mouth so the "Blueprint* has been firmly clizzeled in stone by the right wingers so if now they want to cry like crybabies... tough. What goes around comes around. A little old fashion Karma. And there's more comin'.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM

Is it true that the kid was an active member of the AAA? "BMWs don't kill people..."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 10:13 PM

Peter...you're right of course. Let's use this as a hypocrisy test. If all knee-jerk liberals agree not to judge the hypothetical prominent spokesperson based on the actions of a somehow-associated adult, will the knee-jerk conservatives agree to do the same? And please don't tell me the conservatives haven't, because the record is hugely out there. No sarcasm here -- you really are correst.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM

Well, of course they won't, TIA. The right wing thinks it owns all rights to hypocrisy, and ya' know what, I'm believin' that they ain't too far wrong on that issue.

Meanwhile, the "media" around these parts ain't touchin' anything about this story. Nothing at all in the "liberal" (Hahahah, don't make me puke...) Washington Post. Nothing more on Channel 4 news. Nothing. Nothing and more nuthing!!!!

And who says that the NRA isn't the most powerfull lobby in America?

Well, it is kind of hard arguing with a lot of deranged gun nuts, who own lots of guns and make no bones about how they feel about anyone who doesn;t agree with them. Talk about democracy's head being on the chopping block! Whew...

And how are ya' gonna get any ibnfo on this case with the Bush administration ignoring the Freedom of Information Act. You won't get squat from this government unless they want to give it to you. Forget the law. This is not your grandfather's America...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:52 PM

Well, today, David Keene, Jr, who has been incarcerated since his arrest was denied bond.

His mother who was interviewed outside the courthouse said the shooting was "an accident" and blamed it on Keene's girlfriend who she said grabbed Keene's arm as he was getting ready to shoot.

The mother also said that he son suffers from an "impulse disorder" and was hospitalized 7 times for the disorder between the age ot 7 and 13.

Hmmmmmmm? How did a kid with mental problems happen to get in possession of not only a handgun but also a late modle BMW to tool around in....

OPne thing you can say, though, is that as part of the "damage control" sessions within the White House, conventional wisdom decided that the kid was going to have to take the lumps he deserves.

But so far the media attention is almost nil...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Come 'n get 'em in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:28 PM

Give up your guns. It's what Stalin, Hitler and Mao insisted on. Give up your guns and see how much freedom the mass-murdering Bush Company allows you to have. Won't be anymore downtime on the internet when you're doing ditch-work on the business end of a U.N. automatic. And as for your little forum here, that'll go away with the Bill or Rights. Grow up. Guns are the only thing that keep America free.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:39 PM

Whew, GUEST, come-n-get-em-in Texas. You on drugs? Thought so! Where do you read that anyone wants to take away your guns, unless you have already proven to be a re-rainged nutball. Hey, why don't we let little kids play with loaded guns? Ahhhhh, maybe 'cause it's stupid. What's the difference with a slightly older kid who has been hospitalized 7 times for "impusive disorders"?

Let me ask you, GUEST, blah-blah-blah. Lets say that you live in an apartment building and the guy who lives accross the hall is real beligerant and doesn't like you 'cause he heard that you like folk music. Okay, now you find out that he has been hospitalized 7 times in the last 14 years for "impulsive disorders' during which he has shown behaviors that are a mix of uncontrolable temper tantrums, paranoia, and threatening behavior. You want this guy to have a gun? I don't!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:43 PM

"Guns are the only thing that keep America free."

Sometimes I'm glad we've got the Atlantic ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:28 PM

That guy can't legally own a gun. Lock him up if he has one.

England is now a slave society. Their violent crime rate has exploded exponentially since they were disarmed. An armed and responsible citizenry is the only effective preventative against crime. When concealed handgun permits were issued a few years ago in Texas, the crime of carjacking all but disappeared...you never know who might have a gun.

The U.S. government gave smallpox infected blankets to American Indians to mass-murder. The U.S. government held the interceptor jets on the ground Sept. 11 so the hijackers could reach their targets. Now the U.S. House has passed the most draconian gun bill in the history of our country. GWBush has promised to sign it when the Senate passes it. So, are you folks going to trust this government to treat you fairly once you are disarmed? This government of murderers?

You deserve slaughter if you give up the right (the Constitution calls it a RIGHT, by the way), you deserve slaughter if you give up your ability to defend your families. Without the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, the rest of the Constitution is meaningless. Right-wing Corporate fascism is now merging with left-wing Marxism to create the grandaddy of all tyrannical societies. Buy guns. Buy guns now. Buy as much ammo as you can afford, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:35 PM

I was just doing a public-domain search, by the way, and I was surprised to see this discussion. Old Joe Clark...public domain or not? I won't shoot anyone who gives me an answer I don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:20 AM

Texas,

Since you appear to live in Texas, not England, can I suggest you shut up about England? England is not a "slave society", nor is the "violent crime rate has exploded exponentially since they were disarmed" true, not least since we were never "armed" in the first place.

I assume you're referring to the gun laws passed in the wake of the Dunblane massacre. Curiously enough, since then we *haven't* had a succession of Columbine's et al...

Violent crime has risen because it's risen. A more restrictive (& probably unnecessary, TBH) gun law that took weapons away from a very small minority of the population had nothing to do with it. In my *personal* opinion (gut feeling, no statistics) the rise in violence has more to do with a combination of the increasing Americanisation of British culture, & the increasing selfishness within it (please note - I'm not implying a direct link between those two!) from the late 70's onwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:04 AM

Yo, GUEST, you're doing that "GUEST thing" again with your assumptive attitude. If I say that a civilized nation has the right to not allow bad people from owning guns, you say I want to take the guns away from everyone. Untrue. It ain't too difficult to set up some purdy universally accepted behavioral guidelines for coming up with a list of folks you don't want to be part of that armed majority that I agree makes Boss Hog a tad nervous when he thinks of declaring martial law.

Hey, I'm not defending Tom Ridge at all here. Or John Poindexter, or John Ashcroft or any of the bums who have temporarilly stolen democracy. This is an issue of safety.

And this isn's pre-emtive either GUEST because some folks have *demonstated* their nature's over and over (like 7 hospitaliztions for uncontrolled temper tantrums over an 11 year period) that society is safer without these folks having guns. I don't believe anyone is talking "outlawing guns". I'm certainly not.

Bobert

p.s. I hardly recognized you with that cowboy hat, GUEST...

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:32 AM

Being Irish-American, I have mixed feelings about the English. The English murdered my ancestors. They also gave the world the central banking system and it's been all downhill since. The Queen and her whole family should be sold into one of the prostitution conglomerates they finance. The Bush Company with it's cocaine cartel and armaments manufacturing is trying to set itself up as the new royalty here, but it won't happen. 400 million guns and we know how to use them. The English need to get their guns back. Don't blame America because England has lost it's testicles. Your own government just admitted it's been behind most of the bombings in Britain over the past 20 years. After blaming those 'dirty Irish' for so long...now you wimps don't even have the guts to spike the heads of the scum who maunufactured the crises to take away your rights. You can't even call the Queen a prostititute in England, can you? Jailable offense. Tony Blair announce your Magna Carta is no longer needed...I mean, what has HAPPENED to you people? Cameras everywhere watching you, being forced into the European Union, can't speak your mind on a streetcorner. The same might happen here, but at least our govenment will have to nuke us to get it done.

Listen to this radio program. The absolute voice of truth about what is happening in the world today. You can click on one of the 'listen' links and get streaming audio.

http://www.infowars.com

3 hours, twice a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:50 AM

Yo, Texas - try the decaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Billy BeJesus
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:38 PM

The fact that Guest/Texas is obviously a raving lunatic shouldn't distract anyone from the fact that he/she is right--As far as I am concerned, the only way anyone takes the Bill of Rights away from me is by prying it from my cold, dead fingers--

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:46 PM

Do you, in fact, belong to a "well regulated militia"?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 01:30 PM

The sheriff of my county has the authority to press me into service in order to preserve the peace. That is the 'well-regulated militia'. It is my obligation to own a gun so that I can carry out my duties if called upon.

You people better wake up. GWBush was the 'states rights' candidate. Going to protect us from big government infringing on the rights of the states. But he has Federalized education with national testing, Federalized religion and brought it under control of government with 'faith-based initiatives' and given us a Gestapo national police for the first time in our history with the Homeland Security Bill. He has opened the borders while saying we are 'at war', and he has initiated a 'shadow government' which completely disregards the constitutional line of succession. These are NOT conservative actions. GWBush is carrying out the dictates of the global banking cartel intent on total seizure of property and the initiation of a repressive world government.

The major infrastructure of the U.S. which has been taken over and 'socialized' over the past century is now being sold off to the big corporations. Corporate fascism. In the end, the corporate fascism of the far-right will be indistinguishable from the Marxism of the far-left. Use your brains. And buy guns.

And look up the USA PATRIOT Act. H.R. 3162 (House Resolution). Section 802, a, 5, A. LOOK IT UP NOW! The new definition of 'domestic terrorism' is any act which '...endangers human life and is a violation of a law of the United States or of any state.' I kid you not. JAYWALKING endangers your life and is a violation of the law. So you can now be arrested, tortured and executed for jaywalking, people!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

Guest in Texas -- you are absolutely right, it is scary as hell. I'm Planning to fight it at the ballot box and/or with peaceful civil disobedience. But I'm sure as hell on your team. WAKE UP AMERICA!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:00 PM

The ballot box doesn't work. Two national elections have now been rigged. VNS (Voting News Service) has 'gone down' twice. First, in 2000, it 'went down' in Florida just after Al Gore was declared the winner of the state. When it 'came back up', Bush had won the state. In 2002, the system 'went down' nationwide, and the unpopular Republican party made 'surprising gains' in all areas when the computers 'came back'. At the national level, the elections are rigged by the VNS which is PRE-programmed to count votes. The best thing you can do in your area is to make sure electronic voting is not allowed. There MUST be a paper trail.

As far as civil disobedience...you have to back it up with guns. Bullets or ballots, and we've been denied ballots. Now our illegal government has declared us all terrorists. Fine. Let them enforce it. But you MUST be armed. 3 one-million bed 'relocation facicilities' were commissioned by the U.S. govt. this past summer...bids being accepted. Completion dates slated for January. So there will be three new FEMA concentration camps ready to go next month. We are soon going to see the beginning of mass-relocations, and the people vacated from their land will never see their homes again. I plan to fight for my home. When the U.N. troops come to move me 'for my safety', I plan to delete a few of them 'for my safety'. There is NO OTHER CHOICE.

Sorry I barged into y'alls nice forum here, but I have so many links if any of you are interested....concentration camps in America...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/14/214727.shtml

for the English guy...your government orchestrated terrorism...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_mi5terror.html

Warranless Secret Searches in the PATRIOT Act. No more Fourth or Fith Amendment because of this one Section...Go to the link below, type in H.R.3162 and click on one of the choices...choice #3...and go down to Section 213. Warrantless Secret Searches...they can go into your home, take anything they want and never tell you. And jail you if you mention it....And check Section 802 for the definition of 'domestic terrorism'...

http://thomas.loc.gov/

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:44 PM

Folks, I think it's time that your doctor ups the dosage and takes away your crayons.

Bobert was nowhere close when he stated that he lived in a backward part of West Virginia. He lives some 10 miles from me, near Harpers Ferry, which for many years was a hippie community before the historical park took over most of the terrain. Jefferson County is the richest county in West Virginia, and is included as part of the Federal Government's pay-scale local parity increase, together with DC and the richest counties in Virginia and Maryland. The median new house price in this county is well over $200,000.

As I have mentioned before, my town of Shepherdstown, WV has been cited several times as the "Most Intelligent Small Town in the Washington Area", with an average education of a four year degree plus one year of graduate school [I have Masters and three additional years of graduate study] for a town of 1,000 residents (due to the presence of Shepherd College within the town limits).

And according to the latest census numbers, 81 percent of this county's residents were not born in West Virginia. Bobert must be down in a really small pocket of poverty, and definitely needs to get out more.


My second comment is far more dangerous. I'm not aware that the "nature versus nurture" arguement has been settled with the finality that, were it applied to groups you tend to advocate for, you would decry the same comment as racism or prejudice (and you would be correct). Need I say more...


And since the laws governing this country, including those which deal with gun possession and sales, tend to be generated and passed by the moderate middle of the Nation's citizenry, I think that the time spent in arguing beliefs with the hooting loonies of both the right and left, is wasted. During my experiences as a hostage negotiator, we would note the indiscrinate use of adjectives during the conversations, as an indication of the lucidity of the suspect. The greater the use of symbolic, rote-learned or contextually inappropriate adjectives, the less the suspect was capable of rational decision-making. If you don't live with them, why make the effort? The best solution for the rational person, is to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,M. A. Pruitt
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:20 PM

I used to be an NRA member but let my membership lapse as I found they were not nearly hardcore enough for my tastes. That no doubt makes me a "gun nut", a nice, loaded term that helps the "gun grabbers" (another loaded term, from the other side of the debate) de-humanize me and those who think like me.

So be it.

TIA: Yes, I'm a member of a well-regulated militia and, if you are a male between the ages of 18 and 45, so are you. Read our founders writings on the subject.

Can't remember who posted it but... the fact that a court in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia decided the 2nd amendment doesn't mean what it says is no surprise to me. And no, the decision won't stand up.

Our Bill Of Rights is not a "choose one from column A, two from column B" document. It was ratified as a whole (the first 10 anyways) and stands as a whole.

Except it's being torn to flinders now. And, though Bush Jr. is indeed a bozo, much of the damage happened during the Clinton reign, so conveniently scapegoating the Shrub is in fashion it is not accurate.

I hasten to add that he is certainly continuing and increasing the lousy trend.

How the anti-2nd forces can stand up and say that "the people" means "all of us" in every amendment *except* the 2nd is a source of constant amazement to me. If I were to assert that "the people" in the 1st amendment *actually* meant only "government sanctioned media organs" the screech from the left would resound from coast-to-coast and the vitriol heaped on me would be staggering.

For all of you I repeat: read our founders words, not just press releases from Rosie O'Donnell (who says *you* can't have a gun for your protection while arming her kid's bodyguard) or Ted Kennedy (who utilizes handguns daily, both at home and work, for personal protection... same as any other congress-critter) or Dianne Feinstein (sp?) (who rants about gun control but has been caught with a pistol in her purse) or any of the other two-faced proponents of *cough*"sensible gun control"*cough*.

Or press releases from any of the more right-wing orgs either. Read what the founders said.

The first "gun control laws" were Jim Crow laws designed to disarm newly freed blacks shortly after the Civil War. They haven't improved since.

It's not about gun control folks, it's about *control*. If you think things are bad in the rights department now, think about how it'll be when the elitist ruling class feels we no longer represent a threat.

I know it's hard but people on both sides of this issue, try to *think*.

I'm gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM

GUEST, Claymore: Try Mission Road, that little hillbilly heaven holler off Rt 9 just west of Mannings. Ain't no Sheppardstown. Purdy danged, ahhhh, redn*ck. (See how politically correct I can be?).

GUEST, Texas Turnip. While we tend to agree on a lot we still have this little divide. You might want to refresh the ongoning discussion we have a few months back about violent verses non violent political actions on our part. That was right around the time that you were trying to get me to throw a bowling ball thru Boos Hog's window... I don't think we need to rehash that shirmish, do we?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:49 PM

Adamantly *not* a member of a well regulated militia. Registered CO long long ago. Even without the papers, gummint can't begin to force me to touch a gun nor any other weapon, and the founding fathers and mothers would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 09:12 PM

Bobert...I'm not who you seem to think I am. I just stumbled on this forum yesterday. Not sure what your interaction regarding violent vs. non-violent was, but violence is a way of life. On Sept. 11 we were attacked by our own govt., and they aren't going to stop at that. It was just the opening shot to get us milling around like cattle. Now that we're restless and milling, we'll be stampeded. I have endless links to government and investigative websites if you want to debate whether our government did the Sept. 11 job, but the evidence is overwhelming. And those monsters(who forced people to leap out of hundred story buildings) they can only be stopped with force. Sooner or later, the confrontation is coming. I just hope it can be done with a MINIMUM of violence. That's why we ALL need to be armed. If it comes to shooting, let it be intense and quick.

Claymore...You use the words 'symbolic', 'rote-learned' and 'contextually inappropriate' while describing adjectives. Did it occur to you that you yourself 'rote-learned' those adjectives? So are you capable of making sound decisions after undergoing that indoctrination? You're obviously a cop, and if you're not Federal and are still active, you have a problem on your hands. 650,000 state and local cops in the U.S., and the Feds are going to use you as first-line cannon fodder when they decide to start 'relocating' people. You will have the Feds with their guns at your backs and an armed and angry citizenry that KNOWS what is going on in front of you. You are being set up. Talking about upping medication and taking crayons away from people who care enough about you to point out your predicament won't solve the problem we're facing. The most insane thing a human can say...that he is willing to launch a nuclear war in order to avoid war...should be your guide to the stability of the guy with his finger on the button right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 09:54 PM

Sorry, GUEST. Had you corn-fused with GUEST. Danged glasses need a cleanin'.

Bobert

p.s. While I'll agree with ya' that the gov't may have had knowledge and allowed the attack to occur, I ain't buying that they pulled this off themselves. And I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next conspiracy loving nutball. But, like I said, it it more beleivable that they might have let enuff stuff fall thru the cracks that allowed this to occur, but more by default than design.

Now I ain't into thinkin' that my few pop guns is much match fir theirs so Iz gonna stick with non violent resistence. Plus, I ain't into usin' guns for anything except the pesky deer that try to mess with my gardens and fir self defense, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:04 PM

Hysterical. "Maw, get mah trusty shotgun! Thar's an Apache helicopter headed thisa way! I know it's pitch dark, but I kin get 'em!"

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:24 PM

Exactly right, Nicole. NEW GUEST seems to think that the over the counter guns are sufficient to take on Apache's.

Man they got better drugs now a days then they had 30 years ago...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:24 PM

Given 8 hours, I could convince any grand jury in the nation that the government committed the September 11 attacks, and it wasn't by accident.

All FBI field agents reported on the hijackers the whole time they were in the country. They were trained by the U.S. military (Pensacola Naval Air Station), they were housed in FBI safe houses, and 5 of the hijackers were pulled aside for random searches on Sept. 11. They were in the country illegally and they were 'Known Associates' of Ossama bin Laden. The airport personell ran their names through the computers, but their bios had mysteriously disappeared from the FBI database. Only the FBI bigwigs could have pulled the names from the computers.

NORAD held the interceptor jets on the ground for 75 minutes when FOUR JETLINERS WENT OFF COURSE at the same time. Unprecendented. The FAA cleared the air corridors for immediate military action, which never came. Interceptor jets reached golfer Payne Stewart's jet in 12 minutes when it depressurized a few years ago, yet 4 jets were allowed to wander over the Eastern U.S. for over an hour. General Ralph E. Eberhart was in charge of NORAD that day. The order to stand down either came from him or his commander...GWBush. Now Eberhart has been rewarded with promotion to commander of NORTHCOM, the new 'North American Unified Military Command'. He is our military dicator. And he is calling for the reversal of Posse Comittatus (the 1878 act which makes it ILLEGAL for military to take part in police actions on U.S. soil).

These people are going to kill, rape and enslave your children. They are going to gas us with Sarin nerve gas (as they already have, if you want the links to government's own sites admitting that), they are going to infest us with smallpox and nuke our cities. They have said all this would happen 'when, not if'. It is a done deal. They are going to kill you and take all you own. If you go passively, history will revile you. Buy guns. Buy guns. Buy guns. Decide later if you want to use them. Decide when they are cutting your child's head off if you have it within you to stand up to these monsters. View some footage of Kofi Annan's million-man-murder if you think you're safe within these borders. Just buy guns and hope they get the message from that simple act. End of sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:59 PM

Calm down, GUEST!

Okay, lets say that you are right. Let's say that Junior hisself actually ordered this 9/11 attacks.

Now lets get the the pl;ace where you logic just goes out of control.

You think a bunch of pop guns are a match fir the US military? I'm kinda thinking that would be real stupid. You can put that stategy in the "L" column, fir sure... Yeah, it would be suicidal. Just like if Saddam were to say, "Okay, US, meet you out in the middle of the desert!"

Man, you need to get yer thinkerator tuned up, brother ot sister.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:50 AM

You don't have to bring down the Apache...just the pilot.

Troops and cops are compartmentalized. They do their bit of the job and don't know they are feeding the monster. Like the Nazis. Just doing their jobs. But open the eyes of the troops and you have trained warriors coming over to your side.

Half of the Air Force's pilots have applied for discharges. Half. They don't want the forced anthrax vaccine. 50,000 Desert Storm vets have died from that stuff, and the pilots aren't stupid. They know they will die if they are injected. They can take over an Apache at any time if you can deliver one.

Yes. It is SO achievable, that I think our whole traitorous government can be brought to justice before it comes to war. All you have to do is disseminate information. The vermin can't stand the light of day. In their desperation they tried to put a war criminal of Nazi maginitude...Kissinger...in charge of another phony 9-11 coverup. But the American people wouldn't stand for it. Our government of murderers is desperate. A handful of students with laptop computers in Tienamen square set the cause of world government back ten years. The illegal, anti-American government of the U.S. is doomed. All it takes is fortitude, guns and insistence on truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:47 AM

Give it up, Texas, fer gawd's sake! Oh & skip the abuse pointed in my & the English direction, please. I didn't offer you any. The thread is (or was) about guns, not about races.

Yes I had a look at the link you kindly posted. I read the top article. So what? "Government orchestrated terrorism"? No, I don't think so. There's a difference between trying to infiltrate an agent into a terrorist organisation (yes, your agent has to behave like the terrorists, bit of a no-brainer, that) and originating & orchestrating a terrorist campaign. If the IRA had been a peaceful organisation, MI5 wouldn't have needed an agent behaving in a terrorist fashion (though I daresay they'd still have had an agent in there). And no, they wouldn't have/didn't invent the IRA either to scare us all/take away our rights...

You'll notice that the agent in question had no problem with what he was doing up to the point where MI5 decided he was expendable. And the reasons attributed for that decision, whilst rather calculated & nasty, are coldly logical. In fact, he doesn't to me seem to have a problem with them now, except that they won't give him what he's reasonably asking for.

Sometimes govt has to break it's own laws on a small scale to preserve them on a large scale. Of course it does on the quiet because it knows damn well that very few people would understand the necessity. If you were given the task of killing one innocent person, knowing that if you failed to do so, a thousand innocents would die, what would you choose? It's nasty, but life's like that sometimes.

If you're prepared to throw around phrases like "Government orchestrated terrorism" on the basis of that story, I think we'll have to agree to differ. From my p-o-v, your version of logical analysis is seriously flawed. Either that, or you're deliberately misrepresenting things which would be 10 times worse. I don't think you are, BTW, I think you're suffering from the former. Or in the words of various other posters, I'm afraid I think you're a nut! Sorry! *g*

Most of your continuing remarks about England, BTW, remain substantially untrue. I can quite happily go and speak my mind on a street corner (or even Speaker's Corner, if it comes to that), we haven't lost our rights or our guns (since most people never owned one, nor did we have the 'right' to own one), cameras don't watch me everywhere, & the govt hasn't "admitted it's been behind most of the bombings in Britain over the past 20 years" AFAIK. Etcetera.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:17 PM

There are none so enslaved as those who believe themselves free.

The English turned themselves over to the Nazis years ago. I mean, your queen is married to a German nazi. Our Bush family wannabes only eat off Adolph Hitler's silverware at Yale's Skull and Bones compound in their pathetic attempts to be like real nazis, but your royal family has actually integrated itself with the Reich.

And if you don't want to see the obvious in a simple article, that's too bad. Your government murders its own citizens to create the need for law-enforcement.