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BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech

GUEST 10 Dec 02 - 09:26 AM
Raptor 10 Dec 02 - 09:29 AM
Raptor 10 Dec 02 - 09:32 AM
GUEST 10 Dec 02 - 09:48 AM
Wolfgang 10 Dec 02 - 11:07 AM
DougR 10 Dec 02 - 12:24 PM
kendall 10 Dec 02 - 12:55 PM
Ebbie 10 Dec 02 - 01:02 PM
Haruo 10 Dec 02 - 01:03 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 02 - 02:00 PM
NicoleC 10 Dec 02 - 02:11 PM
EBarnacle1 10 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 10 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM
DougR 10 Dec 02 - 04:06 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 02 - 05:14 PM
Troll 10 Dec 02 - 10:20 PM
DougR 10 Dec 02 - 10:47 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 02 - 11:01 PM
Troll 11 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM
DougR 11 Dec 02 - 01:58 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM
Troll 11 Dec 02 - 04:17 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 02 - 04:20 PM
bassen 11 Dec 02 - 04:30 PM
bassen 11 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 02 - 04:42 PM
BusbitterfraeScotland 11 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM
BusbitterfraeScotland 11 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM
Troll 11 Dec 02 - 09:43 PM
bassen 12 Dec 02 - 01:28 AM
open mike 12 Dec 02 - 01:41 AM
bassen 12 Dec 02 - 11:30 AM
GUEST 12 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM
Troll 12 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

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Subject: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:26 AM

I've read this fascinating speech in it's entirety, but a few small passages leapt out at me, in relation to where the US stands in relation to the rest of the world, especially this:

``War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn to live together in peace by killing each other's children.''

I was reminded how important it is to remember that no matter how morally justified we feel we are in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the military response is still evil, just as Carter says.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:29 AM

Vince Carter won a nobel Peace prize?

Wow I'm gonna learn to play Basket Ball

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:32 AM

Sorry I'm in a silly mood!

I allways liked Jimmey.

From homes for humanity to this Speech how can you not love the guy?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 09:48 AM

Well, for starters he has always been pro-nuke. But nobody is perfect, eh? I think it is a great honor for a US president to be given the award at this perilous time, with a belligerent US president threatening pretty much everyone in the world with his unilateral threats to go in anywhere, anytime.

It was also interesting to note the comments by a member of the Norwegian Nobel Peace committee:

"(10-11) 10:18 PDT OSLO, Norway (AP) -- Former President Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize on Friday for his "untiring effort" to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts and to advance democracy and human rights.

The Norwegian Nobel Committee contrasted Carter's success in finding peace between Egypt and Israel through diplomacy with President Bush's vow to oust Saddam Hussein, by force if necessary.

"It (the award) should be interpreted as a criticism of the line that the current administration has taken," said Gunnar Berge, the Nobel committee chairman. "It's a kick in the leg to all that follow the same line as the United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:07 AM

From a German newspaper commentary of today:
Carter may have been not the best president the USA ever had but he is without doubt the best ex-president they ever had...

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 12:24 PM

A lot of people in the U. S. feel that way, Wolfgang. I think he is greatly admired for his humanitarian efforts, particularly with the Habitat organization, which he has been involved with for years. A lot of people are not so happy with the role he played in assuring that North Korea would be able to develop a nuclear bomb, however. Sometimes, in my opinion, he becomes so anxious to cement his image as a "peacemaker," in the minds of everyone, he gets a bit carried away and urges policies (as in the case with North Korea)that are not in the best interest of the U. S. (and in the case of NK, the world).

I think the best course of action for any ex-president is to keep one's mouth shut most of the time. I believe most former presidents, until very recently, have tended not to criticize their successors in a show of unity. With Carter and Clinton, however, it doesn't seem to matter. I believe both of them still think of themselves as still serving as president.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 12:55 PM

What's this about Carter helping North Korea build a nuclear bomb?


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 01:02 PM

Yep. Out on the old golf course they don't seem to discuss world conditions- or care, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Haruo
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 01:03 PM

Yeah, if it hadn't been for Carter we could've nuked Pyongyang before they could blackmail us, and nobody would have even noticed. (totally TIC)

Hey, Doug, maybe he's actually trying to be a peacemaker, not "cement his image" as one.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 02:00 PM

Well danged, Dougie! There you go again. Exactly where do you come up with this stuff? Rush Limbaugh? Yeah, now there is a truthfull man on *HIS* way go a Nobel Peace Prize? Come on...

Carter has tried to broker normalized relations between the US and North Korea which I for one think would be a positive sign but then again I have repeatedly preached inclusionary foriegn policy as a more practical and less dangerous alternative to excluding folks, starving their kids and attacking them.

And lets keep another thing in mind when talking about Jimmy Carter. His political fortunes were probably hurt by his determination to put peoples lives over politics and polls. He worker tirelessly to negotiate the release of the hostages in Iran and *was* successful. A less patient man with a less humanistic value system would have just blown a bunch of folks up and probably been reelected, in spite of the economic problems caused by the oil producing counties cutting output.

And lastly, it is my opinion that the US has had but one president in my life time that was moral and spiritually connected with God and that is President Carter.

Bless him and when a moral crop of historians come along who are less impressed with killing than of tolerance, Jimmy Carter will get the credit due him.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 02:11 PM

Excellent quote, Wolfgang! Carter said something similar the other day when he stated that he was sure that he was receiving the prize for his actions after his presidency.

Nonetheless, if it weren't for a late nomination, Carter would have likely shared the prize with Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1978, for brokering the peace deal between Israel and Egypt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

With few exceptions, the Peace Prize has been given to people who are locally admired rather than internationally famed. Carter is both. Most of the honorees seem to have specialized in antagonizing authority while doing the right thing. Carter does that to some degree. Even so, most of the people he irritates still like and trust him because he is following his moral compass.

The nature of his achievements is such that he is unlikely to be assassinated, as so many of his peers have been.

There are few if any, who can say they have been harmed, or even disadvantaged by his actions. His presidential ratings may have been mixed over all but, By God, he is a person we can all be proud of.

Blessed are those who seek peace in life for others, as well as for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM

Well, this is one of the other brief passages from Carter's acceptance speech that leapt out at me:

``For more than half a century, following the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the Middle East conflict has been a source of worldwide tension. At Camp David in 1978 and in Oslo in 1993, Israelis, Egyptians and Palestinians have endorsed the only reasonable prescription for peace: United Nations Resolution 242. It condemns the acquisition of territory by force, and it calls for the withdrawal of Israel from the occupied territories and provides for Israelis to live securely and in harmony with their neighbors. There is no other mandate whose implementation could more profoundly improve international relationships."

For those of you not familiar with the history of UN resolutions regarding the Israeli-Palestinian war, it is the UN resolution passed in the wake of Israel's 1967 "6 Day War" declaring Israel must pull back it's troops to pre-1967 war borders, and deal realistically with the Palestinian refugees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 04:06 PM

Bobert, Kendall: check any of the news stores of a couple of months ago when N. Korea admitted it had a nuclear weapons program. Carter brokered the deal for Clinton, who agreed to the terms that made it possible for N. Korea to get the materials it needed to make the bomb. Why? Because N. Korea PROMISED Carter they wouldn't make the bomb if they got what they needed. 'Tis all true.

I think Carter means well. But Bobert MEANS well too.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 05:14 PM

What was brokered, Doug was a deal that would have brought Washington and North Korea closer together as the US was to previded a level of assistence to the North Koreans with setting up nuclear power to bring electricity to an impovrished people.

But what happened was that, Junior, wanting to seem like everything that Clinton ever did was wrong did an about face in following thru. Just as he did in the Middle East, I might add. In doing so, that level of cooperation took a nose dive.

Now, becuase the US, or US companies more specificly assisted North Korea on the initial phases of the deal before Bush backed out, now Clinton is being blemed for a program that wouldn't have occured had the US held the course.

And, if you look into the matter beyond the Rush Limbaugh bumper sticker reading, you'll realize that the assistence that was provided comes up way, way short of providing NK with either the technology or fuel for much more than what Saddam has, which ain't much!

How many folks out there are afraid that Norht Korea has a sophistcated nuclear weapons progrma that threatens the United States? Hmmmmm? You want to count the hands, Doug...

Give me a break.

Might of fact, Dougie, since you been prescibing all kinds of meds and counseling fir me lately. How about a month of no Rush Limbaugh or Rush Limbaugh wantabees fir you, my friend. You're starting to sound as if you believe all that crap...

Now, come on over here and get a big hug...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Troll
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:20 PM

Well Bobert, If you don't like Limbaughs take on it, try Neal Boortz.
MORE ON THE NOBEL APPEASEMENT PRIZE

Sorry --- I just can't sit by and watch this Nobel Peace Prize stuff go on all day long without getting my two cents
worth in.

As I said yesterday, Jimmy Carter should have rejected the prize. When Nobel Committee Chairman Gunnar
Berge said that the award was meant as a denunciation of American policy toward Iraq Carter should have
said, "Hey, thanks Gunnar, old pal, but you can keep the award. You have demeaned your own award by
casting it as a symbol of your disagreement with American foreign policy rather than an award for individual
actions taken to promote peace." In short, Carter should have shown the dignity and statesmanship that Rudy
Giuliani did in turning down that $10,000 from that Saudi prince who tied the gift to a condemnation of US policy
toward the Palestinians.

Now that's not to say that Carter hasn't done anything to deserve the prize. He should have received the
recognition back in 1978 .. but someone didn't get the application in the mail on time.

One of the problems with a "peace prize" is that you have to define "peace" in order to figure out just what you're
celebrating. A home without children may be peaceful, but it can also be cold and empty. A home full of children
and grandchildren can be anything but peaceful, while at the same time being filled with joy and love. The
Soviets were fond of defining peace as "an absence of opposition to communism." A maximum security wing at
a federal prison is certainly a more peaceful place than a stadium hosting a college football game. Where
would you rather spend your Saturday afternoon?

So .. just what is Jimmy Carter's definition of peace? For that matter, how does the Nobel Committee define
peace? Any American attack on Saddam Hussein would certainly alter the landscape of Iraq to from one of
peace to one of war and chaos, at least for a few weeks. Does this mean that an action against Iraq is
necessarily bad? Or do the ends justify the violation of the short-term peace?

The most alarming element of Carter's recent pronouncements has been his demonstrated fealty to the United
Nations. Carter is among those who seem to think that the United States is a political subsidiary of the UN, and
that UN permission is required before the United States acts in what it believes to be its own interests. Carter
says, "If there is compliance as judged by the Security Council then I see no reason for conflict." So, that's the
way it works? The United States is the target for Islamic terrorists, and we let the UN Security Council dictate
how, when and where we can react to this threat? Not only does Jimmy Carter believe this, but he acts on it.
Most Americans don't realize that in 1991 Carter actively lobbied member nations of the UN Security Council to
vote against any approval of President Bush's (41) attempts to liberate Kuwait. He wrote to the head of state of
every member nation of the Security Council asking for a no vote. A former president lobbying heads of state to
work against a policy of a sitting president. Nice stuff.

Now don't get me wrong. I honestly believe that Jimmy Carter is a good, decent and honest man. You can
disagree with the policies while liking the policy maker. I just wish he had shown a little more dignity and
refused this tainted Peace Prize.
Let me know what you find wrong with Boortz statements.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: DougR
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 10:47 PM

Troll: I'm sure you will have a lot of folks respond to your invitation.

As far as I'm concerned, I say, right on.

Carter should have declined to accept the award based on the premise on which it was offered.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 02 - 11:01 PM

And then Neil Boortz woke up.... We got some *unilaterialist* who does not believe in the concept of a world governing body and just wants to shoot it out in the streets and you think this is a step forward, troll? Raelly?

And you want to divulge your sources on the Gunner and President Carter agreeing that he would accept the Nobel in exchange for denunciation of American policy?

It is more conceivable that Jimmy Carter, being a man determined to find those things that bind mankind, rather than seperate, would natually find fault with Bush's inilaterialist policy that promises only that a lot of kids and other folks are going get hurt and killed.

Back to the sources, troll. Where's the deal? You got the goods? I'm betting that you don't. You have some right winged radio guy saying this and now... *You* believe it. You produce evidence that Jimmy Carter made a deal.... a deal... to denounce the Bush's Iraq policy in exchange for the Nobel and I'LL KISS YOUR CYBER BUTT RIGHT HERE AND NOW!!!! Evidence, troll. Not heresay! Not Rush Limbaugh! Evidence!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM

Bobert, you show me where I (or Neal Boortz -who BTW is a Libertarian) said that Carter made a deal, and I'll show you the proof. OK?
Your post is the first I've heard of any "deal" being made. Knidly note the quote below. That shoud give you a clue as to where the idea came from.
"(10-11) 10:18 PDT OSLO, Norway (AP) -- Former President Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize on Friday for his "untiring
effort" to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts and to advance democracy and human rights.

The Norwegian Nobel Committee contrasted Carter's success in finding peace between Egypt and Israel through diplomacy
with President Bush's vow to oust Saddam Hussein, by force if necessary.

"It (the award) should be interpreted as a criticism of the line that the current administration has taken," said Gunnar Berge, the
Nobel committee chairman. "It's a kick in the leg to all that follow the same line as the United States."
Bobert,if you want to be ruled by the UN, that's your right.
Not everyone -in this country and others- agrees with you. But you seem to like an uphill fight so have at it.
Everyone needs a hobby.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: DougR
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 01:58 PM

I will agree to a "world governing body" when hell freezes over.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

Personally, I'm much prefer being ruled by the UN than current US government. Be delighted about it, in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:17 PM

Passports are easy enough to come by, GUEST. Go on out there and see if you can find someplace you like better.
I'll bet you won't. Even with the current administration.

troll ***and no, I'm NOT one of the "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" crowd. I've just done a lot of traveling.***


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:20 PM

I have travelled too, troll. And you are wrong to presume that I wouldn't move out of the US. I and my family are giving very serious thought to moving to Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: bassen
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:30 PM

Gunnar Berge made that statement at the press conference, but that was not the opinion of the Nobel Committee. Berge was heavily criticized by the other committee members for that statement, something media didn't bother to report.

The following is the prize announcement with the committee's motivation for giving the prize to Carter. The last paragraph is an allusion to our present global crisis, but a far cry from what Berge said.


"The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided to award the Nobel Peace Prize for 2002 to Jimmy Carter, for his decades of untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development.

During his presidency (1977-1981), Carter's mediation was a vital contribution to the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, in itself a great enough achievement to qualify for the Nobel Peace Prize. At a time when the cold war between East and West was still predominant, he placed renewed emphasis on the place of human rights in international politics.

Through his Carter Center, which celebrates its 20th anniversary in 2002, Carter has since his presidency undertaken very extensive and persevering conflict resolution on several continents. He has shown outstanding commitment to human rights, and has served as an observer at countless elections all over the world. He has worked hard on many fronts to fight tropical diseases and to bring about growth and progress in developing countries. Carter has thus been active in several of the problem areas that have figured prominently in the over one hundred years of Peace Prize history.

In a situation currently marked by threats of the use of power, Carter has stood by the principles that conflicts must as far as possible be resolved through mediation and international co-operation based on international law, respect for human rights, and economic development. "

Gunnar Berge is a veteran Arbeiderparti (labor party) politician who made it as far as Minister of Finance in his political career. Not bad for someone who started as a shop steward in a shipyard, but on the other hand, he was never known for his wisdom and deep insight...plodder is the word that comes to mind.
Did you see the look on his face after he made the statement? That's his famous "it's MY ball, you'll play MY way" face...

For more info on the Nobel Peace Prize www.nobel.no




bassen


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: bassen
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM

Mari Boine and Willie Nelson were among the performers at the Peace Prize Concert this evening. Willie sang "Always on my Mind" and "Georgia", the latter at Carter's request.

Bassen


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:42 PM

bassen, thanks for the info. Actually, I knew when I posted the information above that the Nobel committee disagreed with his statement. But still, he is a member of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee, and so his opinion does carry a good bit of authority, even in an unofficial capacity.

I personally wasn't bothered by it. I think we should be allowed to hear more about the opinions of the committee, and how they come to the decision, myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM

I thought it was good, I thank God that we in Britain don't have a president like George Wanker Bush.

God help us all.

BOOM BOOM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM

I know that we in Britian don't have a president, however the way that Tory Blair is going he thinks he is President of Britian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Troll
Date: 11 Dec 02 - 09:43 PM

GUEST.
Bye.
If it is your wish to live in the shadow of the US, knowing that you are always dependent on another country for your defense and a good portion of your economy, I'd be the last one to try and stop you.
But you'd better check before you sell the house. Canada may not want you. They have certain standards that you must meet before you can emigrate -money, skills, etc.- but I'm sure you've checked all this out.bassen, will you please cite your source(s) regarding the Nobel Committee's criticism of Berges statement? I have not seen any mention of it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: bassen
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:28 AM

www.aftenposten.no
www.dagsavisen.no
www.dagbladet.no
www.vg.no

The first one at least has an english language section, tho' I'm not sure if this particular item is there.

I'm on my way out the door so I'll have to find the specific date for you later. Kvannmo and Ytterhorn protested against Berge's comments, they're far left and far right politically. Stålsett on the other hand did not find Berge's comment unreasonable, he's a former politician and present Lutheran bishop.

bassen


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: open mike
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:41 AM

off topic but...
oh good mari boine is feeling good then
she could not make it to the u.s.
in sept due to an oeration
gall baldder i believe...
i hope all the people in
Sami Land are in good health
and do not have any ill effects from
the reindeer which were polluted
from the fallout from Chernobyl...


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: bassen
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 11:30 AM

Here's my direct source Troll, an article where two individual members of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee criticize Berge, while one supports him:

alfred nobel

Sorry it's in Norwegian...

here is an English language article, with links to more. Curiously I could find no translation of Norwegian articles with references to the internal criticism in the Committee...keeping up appearances for the furriners??

The Nobel Committee has a tradition of never discussing the internal selection process. If you search among the articles you'll find the former leader of the committee is critical to the way members are recruited. Berge is in my mind a prize example of the heavy handed expolitician who should have been appointed to something less prestigious and profiled, like caretaker of the Oslo Curling Rink. On the other hand, the traditions of the Nobel Institute tend to reduce the damage that any individual member can cause. Some of the opinions I've heard here in Norway are more or less to the effect that Berge's comment lessened rather than enhanced the effect of awarding the prize to Carter. In Norwegian the expression is "han dreit på draget" -that is- "He sh*t on the wagon tongue".

bassen


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

"Some of the opinions I've heard here in Norway are more or less to the effect that Berge's comment lessened rather than enhanced the effect of awarding the prize to Carter. In Norwegian the expression is "han dreit på draget" -that is- "He sh*t on the wagon tongue"."

Interesting, bassen. We've had sort of the same sentiment expressed here in the US, in regards to Carter's acceptance speech & comments about the ways the Bush administration is waging the war on terrorism, and it's "unilateralist stance".


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Subject: RE: BS: Carter's Nobel Peace Prize Speech
From: Troll
Date: 12 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

Thanks bassen. I appreciate the comeback.

troll


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