Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (69)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Council Bans Morris Dancing (103)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM
katlaughing 13 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM
The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 07:32 PM
The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM
fiddler 13 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 02:08 AM
George Papavgeris 14 Dec 02 - 03:33 AM
katlaughing 14 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM
Oaklet 14 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 02:54 PM
diesel 14 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM
Mr Happy 14 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 05:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Dec 02 - 05:49 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Dec 02 - 06:02 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 14 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 09:26 PM
The Pooka 14 Dec 02 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 14 Dec 02 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 15 Dec 02 - 02:52 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 06:19 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 06:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 02 - 09:40 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM
nager 15 Dec 02 - 11:29 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Dec 02 - 02:55 AM
IanC 16 Dec 02 - 11:10 AM
troubleatmill 16 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM
The Shambles 16 Dec 02 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 16 Dec 02 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 02 - 07:20 PM
CraigS 16 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 02 - 08:39 PM
clansfolk 16 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 17 Dec 02 - 01:17 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 01:56 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 09:22 AM
IanC 17 Dec 02 - 09:34 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 01:33 PM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 18 Dec 02 - 03:08 AM
IanC 18 Dec 02 - 04:45 AM
DMcG 18 Dec 02 - 04:50 AM
Ella who is Sooze 18 Dec 02 - 05:13 AM
KingBrilliant 18 Dec 02 - 05:36 AM
Mr Happy 18 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM
The Shambles 18 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM
The Shambles 18 Dec 02 - 06:10 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 19 Dec 02 - 02:58 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Dec 02 - 03:09 AM
BanjoRay 19 Dec 02 - 07:47 AM
KingBrilliant 19 Dec 02 - 07:51 AM
DMcG 19 Dec 02 - 08:04 AM
Folkie 19 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM
IanC 19 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM
DMcG 19 Dec 02 - 12:25 PM
Ed. 19 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM
DMcG 19 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM
The Shambles 19 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM
The Shambles 19 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 19 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM
The Shambles 19 Dec 02 - 06:54 PM
Nemesis 19 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Dec 02 - 07:37 PM
Mr Happy 19 Dec 02 - 08:46 PM
Sorcha 19 Dec 02 - 09:01 PM
Mr Happy 19 Dec 02 - 09:10 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 20 Dec 02 - 05:07 AM
Ella who is Sooze 20 Dec 02 - 05:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Dec 02 - 05:21 AM
The Shambles 20 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM
The Shambles 20 Dec 02 - 10:02 AM
GUEST 20 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 21 Dec 02 - 03:48 AM
DMcG 21 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 02 - 06:08 AM
Llanfair 21 Dec 02 - 11:51 AM
ET 21 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM
ET 21 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 02 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 21 Dec 02 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 21 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM
banjomad (inactive) 22 Dec 02 - 02:32 AM
DMcG 22 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM
The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 06:21 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 22 Dec 02 - 10:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Dec 02 - 01:47 PM
IanC 22 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM
The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 03:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Dec 02 - 03:45 PM
The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 04:21 PM
The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 04:27 PM
IanC 23 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM
The Shambles 23 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM
Mr Happy 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM
IanC 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM
Mr Happy 23 Dec 02 - 10:36 AM
ET 23 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM
Folkie 23 Dec 02 - 11:03 AM
ET 23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 24 Dec 02 - 04:02 AM
Partridge 24 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM
ET 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 24 Dec 02 - 04:58 AM
The Shambles 24 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM
The Shambles 26 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM
The Shambles 27 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM
vindelis 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM
Mr Happy 27 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM
fiddler 27 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM
rock chick 27 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM
Mr Happy 27 Dec 02 - 10:05 PM
fiddler 28 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM
The Shambles 29 Dec 02 - 01:42 PM
DMcG 30 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM
Mr Happy 30 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM
fiddler 30 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM
fiddler 30 Dec 02 - 02:32 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM
John Routledge 30 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM
fiddler 31 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM
DMcG 31 Dec 02 - 06:38 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM
ET 31 Dec 02 - 07:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM
Schantieman 31 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM
Mr Happy 31 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM
fiddler 31 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM
ET 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM
DMcG 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM
The Shambles 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM
ET 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,ET 03 Jan 03 - 07:21 AM
The Shambles 03 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM
fiddler 03 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM
The Shambles 04 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM
DMcG 05 Jan 03 - 03:47 AM
DMcG 05 Jan 03 - 04:41 AM
The Shambles 05 Jan 03 - 06:49 AM
Oaklet 05 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM
Mr Happy 05 Jan 03 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,ET 05 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 06:05 AM
IanC 06 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM
IanC 06 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
The Shambles 06 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM
vindelis 06 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM
The Shambles 06 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM
Mr Happy 06 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,Pete 06 Jan 03 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,Julia 06 Jan 03 - 10:43 PM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 07 Jan 03 - 04:03 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 04:06 AM
fiddler 07 Jan 03 - 04:09 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM
clansfolk 07 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 07:38 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 07 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 09:45 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM
GUEST 07 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM
DMcG 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM
IanC 07 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM
The Shambles 07 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM
The Shambles 07 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM
fiddler 08 Jan 03 - 06:00 AM
The Shambles 08 Jan 03 - 06:48 AM
The Shambles 08 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM
Nemesis 08 Jan 03 - 06:54 PM
The Shambles 09 Jan 03 - 02:15 AM
The Shambles 09 Jan 03 - 06:33 AM
Strupag 09 Jan 03 - 07:17 AM
fiddler 09 Jan 03 - 08:14 AM
IanC 09 Jan 03 - 11:19 AM
Mr Happy 09 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM
IanC 09 Jan 03 - 11:29 AM
fiddler 09 Jan 03 - 01:17 PM
ET 09 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM
The Shambles 09 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM
The Shambles 09 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM
fiddler 10 Jan 03 - 03:33 AM
Mr Happy 10 Jan 03 - 03:33 AM
Mr Happy 10 Jan 03 - 03:36 AM
vindelis 10 Jan 03 - 07:59 PM
The Shambles 11 Jan 03 - 04:07 PM
vindelis 12 Jan 03 - 06:11 PM
IanC 13 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM
DMcG 13 Jan 03 - 10:50 AM
Alice 13 Jan 03 - 02:48 PM
The Shambles 13 Jan 03 - 04:50 PM
BB 13 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM
IanC 14 Jan 03 - 04:11 AM
The Shambles 14 Jan 03 - 10:02 AM
IanC 14 Jan 03 - 11:27 AM
The Shambles 14 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,ET 15 Jan 03 - 06:17 AM
C-flat 15 Jan 03 - 11:48 AM
Alice 15 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM
The Shambles 15 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM
The Shambles 15 Jan 03 - 04:02 PM
IanC 16 Jan 03 - 09:42 AM
Mr Happy 16 Jan 03 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,iains 16 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM
The Shambles 16 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM
The Shambles 16 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM
The Shambles 17 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM
fiddler 17 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM
Alice 17 Jan 03 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,ET 18 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Et 18 Jan 03 - 04:29 AM
The Shambles 18 Jan 03 - 05:24 AM
The Shambles 18 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM
clansfolk 18 Jan 03 - 05:00 PM
The Shambles 19 Jan 03 - 09:03 PM
IanC 20 Jan 03 - 04:55 AM
IanC 20 Jan 03 - 05:23 AM
Mr Happy 20 Jan 03 - 05:48 AM
IanC 20 Jan 03 - 05:54 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 03 - 06:47 AM
clansfolk 20 Jan 03 - 07:26 AM
The Shambles 20 Jan 03 - 10:27 AM
IanC 20 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,ET 20 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,More Lies 20 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM
The Shambles 20 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM
DMcG 20 Jan 03 - 03:02 PM
Alice 20 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM
Alice 20 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM
The Shambles 21 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM
IanC 21 Jan 03 - 09:41 AM
Alice 21 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM
IanC 21 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,bagpuss 21 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM
Bagpuss 21 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM
Mr Happy 21 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM
The Shambles 21 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM
Alice 21 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM
Mr Happy 21 Jan 03 - 06:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 03 - 06:57 PM
clansfolk 22 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM
Bullfrog Jones 22 Jan 03 - 08:45 AM
Mr Happy 22 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM
Mr Happy 22 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM
Bullfrog Jones 22 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM
Mr Happy 22 Jan 03 - 09:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 03 - 09:08 AM
Alice 22 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM
Alice 22 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM
The Shambles 22 Jan 03 - 08:38 PM
Mr Happy 22 Jan 03 - 08:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 03 - 08:52 PM
The Shambles 23 Jan 03 - 01:49 AM
fiddler 23 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 03 - 04:43 AM
The Shambles 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 AM
Alice 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM
Mr Happy 23 Jan 03 - 08:57 PM
Mr Happy 23 Jan 03 - 09:00 PM
clansfolk 24 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM
IanC 24 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM
fiddler 24 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM
Catherine Jayne 24 Jan 03 - 10:24 AM
The Shambles 24 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,ET 24 Jan 03 - 03:57 PM
The Shambles 24 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,ET 25 Jan 03 - 03:50 AM
The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM
Alice 25 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM
The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
Mr Happy 25 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM
The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 10:09 PM
The Shambles 26 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 03 - 09:30 PM
Alice 27 Jan 03 - 10:21 AM
The Shambles 28 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM
IanC 28 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM
IanC 28 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Et 28 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM
The Shambles 28 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM
Mr Happy 28 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM
Mr Happy 28 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM
ET 29 Jan 03 - 07:07 AM
IanC 29 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM
MMario 29 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM
Alice 29 Jan 03 - 03:07 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM
Mr Happy 29 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM
Mr Happy 30 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM
The Shambles 30 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Jan 03 - 03:46 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 05:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM
Mr Happy 01 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 08:29 AM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM
The Shambles 03 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM
Mr Happy 03 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM
Mr Happy 04 Feb 03 - 06:50 AM
The Shambles 04 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM
The Shambles 04 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM
Alice 04 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM
The Shambles 05 Feb 03 - 06:05 AM
The Shambles 05 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM
IanC 06 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,ET 06 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM
DMcG 07 Feb 03 - 05:14 AM
The Shambles 07 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM
Mr Happy 07 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM
ET 07 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 03 - 09:44 AM
IanC 07 Feb 03 - 09:53 AM
The Shambles 08 Feb 03 - 05:16 AM
The Shambles 08 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM
ET 08 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM
ET 09 Feb 03 - 04:08 AM
The Shambles 09 Feb 03 - 05:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Feb 03 - 08:34 AM
The Shambles 09 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM
The Shambles 10 Feb 03 - 07:57 AM
The Shambles 10 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM
ET 10 Feb 03 - 04:02 PM
Alice 10 Feb 03 - 11:14 PM
The Shambles 11 Feb 03 - 05:37 AM
The Shambles 11 Feb 03 - 07:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM
The Shambles 11 Feb 03 - 02:21 PM
The Shambles 12 Feb 03 - 03:45 PM
The Shambles 12 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM
The Shambles 12 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM
ET 13 Feb 03 - 05:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM
Mr Happy 14 Feb 03 - 05:53 AM
The Shambles 14 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM
The Shambles 15 Feb 03 - 01:07 AM
The Shambles 15 Feb 03 - 06:28 AM
ET 15 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM
The Shambles 15 Feb 03 - 01:53 PM
The Shambles 16 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM
Mr Happy 17 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM
ET 17 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM
The Shambles 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM
The Shambles 17 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM
Mr Happy 17 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM
Mr Happy 17 Feb 03 - 10:19 PM
ET 18 Feb 03 - 11:44 AM
ET 18 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM
ET 18 Feb 03 - 11:52 AM
Mr Happy 18 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM
IanC 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM
IanC 18 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
The Shambles 18 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM
The Shambles 18 Feb 03 - 02:32 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM
DMcG 18 Feb 03 - 04:28 PM
IanC 19 Feb 03 - 04:43 AM
The Admiral 20 Feb 03 - 09:01 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 03 - 09:39 AM
BanjoRay 20 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Feb 03 - 04:28 AM
ET 22 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM
The Shambles 22 Feb 03 - 05:58 AM
The Shambles 23 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM
treewind 24 Feb 03 - 04:29 AM
The Shambles 24 Feb 03 - 10:51 AM
The Shambles 24 Feb 03 - 01:49 PM
harpmaker 24 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM
Mr Happy 24 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM
The Admiral 25 Feb 03 - 03:05 AM
IanC 25 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM
The Admiral 25 Feb 03 - 08:34 AM
The Shambles 25 Feb 03 - 09:09 AM
The Admiral 25 Feb 03 - 09:21 AM
IanC 25 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM
ET 25 Feb 03 - 12:58 PM
Folkiedave 25 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM
Folkiedave 25 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM
The Shambles 25 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM
Mr Happy 25 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Feb 03 - 03:40 AM
The Shambles 26 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM
The Shambles 27 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM
The Shambles 28 Feb 03 - 11:30 AM
ET 01 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM
The Shambles 01 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM
Folkiedave 02 Mar 03 - 06:05 PM
The Shambles 04 Mar 03 - 02:50 AM
The Shambles 05 Mar 03 - 06:54 AM
ET 05 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM
The Shambles 06 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM
The Shambles 08 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM
The Shambles 08 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM
The Shambles 10 Mar 03 - 02:10 AM
The Shambles 10 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 11 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM
The Shambles 12 Mar 03 - 09:15 AM
The Shambles 14 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM
The Shambles 16 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM
The Shambles 16 Mar 03 - 02:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,ET 17 Mar 03 - 04:33 PM
The Shambles 17 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,ET 19 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM
ET 22 Mar 03 - 06:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM
ET 22 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM
The Shambles 23 Mar 03 - 05:11 AM
ET 23 Mar 03 - 06:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM
ET 24 Mar 03 - 05:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM
Ed. 24 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM
The Shambles 24 Mar 03 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,ET 25 Mar 03 - 09:01 AM
ET 25 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM
The Shambles 26 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Mar 03 - 02:22 AM
The Shambles 30 Mar 03 - 06:21 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 01 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM
ET 02 Apr 03 - 01:12 AM
DMcG 02 Apr 03 - 03:20 AM
The Shambles 02 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,ET 02 Apr 03 - 08:03 AM
ET 02 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM
ET 02 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 03 - 12:23 PM
ET 04 Apr 03 - 02:43 PM
ET 04 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM
The Shambles 07 Apr 03 - 02:13 AM
ET 07 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM
ET 07 Apr 03 - 04:53 PM
ET 10 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM
The Shambles 11 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM
ET 11 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM
ET 11 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM
The Shambles 15 Apr 03 - 03:16 AM
The Shambles 15 Apr 03 - 02:32 PM
Ed. 15 Apr 03 - 02:42 PM
The Shambles 21 Apr 03 - 02:29 AM
The Shambles 27 Apr 03 - 12:17 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Apr 03 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,ET 28 Apr 03 - 03:27 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Apr 03 - 09:49 PM
The Shambles 04 May 03 - 12:13 PM
The Shambles 16 May 03 - 08:25 AM
The Shambles 31 May 03 - 06:01 PM
The Shambles 06 Jun 03 - 07:22 AM
ET 07 Jun 03 - 04:26 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Jun 03 - 11:32 AM
The Shambles 08 Jun 03 - 08:45 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Jun 03 - 02:40 AM
The Shambles 11 Jun 03 - 01:52 AM
The Shambles 16 Jun 03 - 02:10 PM
The Shambles 16 Jun 03 - 03:44 PM
The Shambles 26 Jun 03 - 01:47 PM
BanjoRay 27 Jun 03 - 05:46 AM
The Shambles 24 Jul 03 - 01:47 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM

If you are concerned that the new licensing proposals are a threat to Live Music in England and Wales then please read the statement below and sign the petition that you will find set up on the following site.
http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

This is an E petition set up by and to be submitted on the 15 March 2003 to Number 10 Downing Street.

We, the undersigned, are concerned that the Licensing Bill proposals to make the performance of live music licensable in pubs and clubs, in places where alcohol is served, in churches, synagogues, mosques and other places of worship, in schools and colleges, in community centres and village and parish halls, and in private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held will have an enormously detrimental effect on musicians and live music performances; fears that the raising of money for charities by musicians will be seriously compromised; consider it will seriously impinge on the folk community including folk music and traditional folk activities such as morris dancing, wassailing, etc; believe that the penalties for breaking the law of a six month jail sentence of a £20,000 fine are far too draconian; consider it grossly unfair and inconsistent that live music will not be licensable in Scotland but will be in England and Wales; regret that the Government has decided to replace the anomalous two in a bar rule with a none in a bar rule which will catch all live music performances; believes that the requirement for the provision of entertainment facilities to become licensable which will ensnare music shops, music and dance studios and teachers, represents a totally unacceptable regulatory intrusion into mainstream activities; and calls on the Government to amend the relevant parts of bill in order to remove the iniquities faced by musicians and the music industry as a whole.

The UK government do recognise E Petitions Read their policy. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page598.asp It explains why you need to enter a valid postal address.

Please add your name to this and take the opportunity to possibly make a difference.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM

It says only UK residents are elgible to sign. I will send an email as we'd discussed on the other recent thread. Thanks and good luck to all,

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 07:32 PM

Sorry, yes it does say that.

This is the Email of the Minister at the Dept of Culture Media and Sport, who is responsible for this Bill. He is also the Minister responsible for encoraging overseas tourists to visit England and Wales.

Perhaps those concerned but not eligible to sign this petition would like to express their views to Dr Howells?

E-mail Address(es):
kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM

I was pleased to see that someone from Montana has signed the petition!

Overseas contributions there may not be technically valid, but there does not seem to be any difficulty in placing your name there, if you should wish to......


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

Excelent Idea!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 02:08 AM

When I went to bed there were 19 signatures, I woke up to 39! So it looks very promising already so please spread circulate as widely as you can.

Being that the petition wording mirrors the wording of EDM 331, if we can get enough signatures on this, it may persuade any reluctant MPs to support EDM 331.

Hard copy petitions (with the same wording) can augment this one.

Many thanks to Graham Dixon for oganising this, please show your appreciation to him by making your very best efforts to make it work.

Inform your clubs pubs and work friends, the family,,,,,,,,,,the dog even.

Those using the email Dr Howells route can ask the the Department pass on your comments to No 10 Downing Street


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:33 AM

It's 41 now - both my good lady and myself signed up.
SPREAD THE WORD!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM

FWIW, I've signed. I don't feel comfortable with my address being public, though, so I didn't include anything but "Colorado USA." I hope it helps. At least they will know others in the world are aware.

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Back to the top. This is important.

All the posts from Shambles may have put you off, but do sign the petition.

Ed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Oaklet
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM

I was number 224 at 16.10 GMT Uk on Saturday 14th Dec.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 02:54 PM

This from Hamish Birchall

Would you please circulate the following?

The creators of the none in a bar Licensing Bill are stuck in the 18th-century. The Bill is constructed as if 21st century safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation had never happened.

The maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison for an unlicensed performance of live music is greater than for a serious breach of health and safety, or noise, legislation (which does not carry a potential custodial sentence).

This was one reason why existing PEL legislation was rubbished in Parliament earlier this year as 'archaic and just plain daft.' But, unbelievably, the government has just confirmed that the penalty would continue to apply to carol singers:


"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice." [Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002]

Criminalising live music without a licence was an 18th century innovation. It was a crime and disorder measure, applying only to pubs in Westminster, at a time when there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.

The Bill is a gift to jobsworths. Rest assured local authorities will enforce 'none in a bar' if this Bill is passed without amendment. Licensees, and musicians, will be treated as criminals where there is no safety risk and no noise complaint.


EDM 331 has been adapted as an 'E-Petition'.

You can add your signature on the following site:
http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

The government do recognise E Petitions. Read their policy.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page598.asp

It explains why you need to enter a valid postal address. Please add your name to this and take the opportunity to possibly make a difference.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: diesel
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM

It has accepted my signiture from Ireland and is now over 300

Even if they don't regard Foreign signitories - it may perhaps influence the Tourist aspect....

Hope the bill is defeated

rgds

Diesel


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

shambles & ed,

i've introduced this issue on mudchat.

a large number of non-uk mudcats are ignorant of all this but i'm explaining it- lots want 2 help- which email thing should they add their weight to?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

I suppose it is probably better to email and ask for these to be forwarded to No 10. Two birds with one stone........

But as overseas folk (bless em) do seem to be able to sign the E petition, who knows? They may as well do both?

Please send the all the overseas 'chatter catters' our thanks for their concern.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM

But as overseas folk do seem to be able to sign the E petition, who knows?

I think that some people are missing the point here.

Anyone is, of course, able to sign a petition at petitiononline.com The site has nothing to do with UK government. Anyone who posts to the list from overseas or fails to give a full address, won't be counted, and is simply making more work for Graham Dixon, when he comes to make his submission


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM

I think that some people are missing the point here.

I have asked Graham Dixon for his wishes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:37 PM

I have asked Graham Dixon for his wishes.

What the British Government will accept would seem more important...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:49 PM

Exactly so. It's made perfectly clear onsite that only UK residents should sign, and that verifiable addresses MUST be given. Signatures from non-residents, or with incomplete addresses, will be providing a possible excuse for the petition to be ignored; as would signatures from Mickey Mouse, which I expect would also be "accepted" by the form.

Sorry and all, and the kind thought is appreciated, but for those who do not live in the UK, a short email to Kim Howells (address above) pointing out the potential damage to the tourist trade would probably be most effective.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:02 PM

Ed & Malcolm are correct, I have just looked at the details of the petition, and it appears that to be valid, it should have a closing date, perhaps someone could contact the petition organiser and suggest he add a closing date, maybe a month or so from now.It apears that if all the requirements are complied with, then the government have to acknoweledge the petition and respond to it.The reason for giving an address is so that it can be checked, perhaps against names on the voters role? It is going well, there are already well over 300 entries on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM

Can we please leave the organising to the organiser, who has demonstrated that he is perfectly able to read. If you read it you will see that it does indeed have a closing date.

Until Graham Dixon expresses his wishes on this small matter of willing and welcome overseas folk, can we please just concentrate on publicising, circulating and making the petition the success it deserves to be and not risk confusing folk who are willing to help?

It is doubtful even if we could manage millions of 'valid' signatures that anyone will take much notice but petitions serve many useful functions. It focuses attention, motivates and the presentation of the finshed thing can take place with a march or an event that will receive media attention.

On behalf of Graham can I thank you for all the help and interest so far. Can we just keep positve? Answers in to me in personal message will prevent deflecting attention away from the object here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:36 PM

The following from Graham Dixon.

I can't believe the response - it's brilliant please inform everyone you know.

I've uploaded some hard copies to print off for use at gigs/clubs etc.

Please use them and post them to me before 15/03/03 I will include them with the printed off copy of the online signatures. Please make it clear that anyone who has signed the online version should not sign the hard copy.

Copy available at From Received Sent
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lancashirefolk

When you access the site -
select 'files' on the left then 'petition'. (Word document)

I think I've set it up so that anyone can access - I'd appreciate it if someone would let me know if it works.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM

Pasting addresses into the "forward" box seems to be a bit of a problem, so in the end I forwarded the email telling me about it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM

Graham has added the following to the petition site.

NB - if you are not a UK resident we still value your support and your opinion. By all means sign the petition if you have a genuine interest in live music in the UK (IE performer/festival goer/etc) I don't know whether or not HM Government will recognise your signature - so if you feel the need to sign please leave a comment on the (Yahoo) forum stating your interest. I will submit these along with the final petition.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 09:26 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,859852,00.html

A prayer for Morris men

Saturday December 14, 2002
The Guardian


Your warning (Leader, December 10) on the effect of the government's licensing bill on church music is to be applauded. But it raises the question of why only religious music should be exempt. Other categories of traditional music, such as the music of Morris dancers, should also be exempt.
G Meadows
(First Sedgley Morris)
Blakedown, Worcs

In the licensing bill, schools are explicitly included as establishments that will need to apply for licences to hold concerts, plays, dance exhibitions and indoor sporting events (for example, a school basketball tournament).
Oliver Thornton
Crowborough, East Sussex
oliver.thornton@virgin.net

Sessions of live music and dance, however small, are also threatened by the bill. While allowing large groups in pubs to watch TV unimpeded, and to listen to processed music, live sessions of music and dance will require a licence. This will lead to the destruction of folk music.
Helen Chew
Stamford, Lincolnshire

The bill will threaten a whole range of informal and essentially amateur music in pubs and other premises, and could lead to the near extinction in this country of folk, jazz and country music sessions, in particular the informal pub sessions run by - and enjoyed by - many people around the country.
Mark Austin
Morden, Surrey


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 10:44 PM

My God. Been out of touch lately so this is new to me. I'm no libertarian laissez-faire free-marketeer; but this one sounds to this Yank like the regulatory impulse run amok.

Ineligible for the petition, I'll compose an email to that official cited above. / One cautionary note re a post above: my opinion, it's not unfair because of Scotland not being covered. It's just unfair, period. Beware the pitfall of feeling that an intrinsic wrong is somehow mitigated by more "equitably" speading it around. If my rights are violated and my neighbor's are not -- good for my neighbor. The fewer rights violated, the better. The harm to me is not one whit lessened if the other guy gets screwed too. The injustice here will not be in free Scotland. It will be in occupied England and Wales. The solution is not to extend the licensing plan, but to scrap it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:43 PM

Thank you Shambles -

I have responded to your politicians with a conservative, Christian, Yank's view regarding the need for citizens to obey the law...and be submissive to the authority that has been posted above them by God.

Perhaps, in the future, you too will "see the light" and become submissive to authority.

There are many of us praying for you conversion

We know, you hear the call.

Come foreward, on bended knee.

Confess the error of your ways.

In Thoughtful Prayer for the poor lost Shambles of soul.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 02:52 AM

Joe, a request...

I don't know how your linking system works but please, if possible could you consider "unlinking" this thread as I feel (perhaps wrongly) it has an effect of "diluting" a very important issue.

I can only express my own opinions but I believe this PEL issue has the potential to destroy folk (and other) music in England and Wales. I also believe (perhaps apparently contary to a reply I gave to Jim Dixon in another thread) that this is the most constructive move yet; but I fear PEL issues may have become something of a joke over here...

Please feel free to delete my post. I have no intention of causing trouble, but have serious (and at times even selfish) concerns over the whole PEL issues.

Jon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:19 AM

One cautionary note re a post above: my opinion, it's not unfair because of Scotland not being covered. It's just unfair, period. Beware the pitfall of feeling that an intrinsic wrong is somehow mitigated by more "equitably" speading it around. If my rights are violated and my neighbor's are not -- good for my neighbor. The fewer rights violated, the better. The harm to me is not one whit lessened if the other guy gets screwed too. The injustice here will not be in free Scotland. It will be in occupied England and Wales. The solution is not to extend the licensing plan, but to scrap it.

Thanks very much for your concern and your actions, I think many will be in perfect agreement with this. It is, I think the key to why the response even from folkies in England and Wales has been patchy, as the current law's enforcement has not afffected everyone here the same.

Many who are not directly affected tend to accuse those who have been and are trying to change things, of wanting to make life worse for them, by 'kicking up a fuss'. When the truth is that they are really trying to make things better for all of us, and to alert everyone to the fact that the partial honeymoon period for some, is soon going to come to an abrubt end. Perhaps I should explain a little about Scotland.

Scotland already has more semsible (but still far from perfect entertainment licensing). PELs in Scotland

This is not mentioned with any intention of spreading the misfortue of those in England and Wales to Scotland, even if that were possible, but to pose the question why this model (Morag, I call her) cannot form the starting point for 'reform' this side of the Tweed.

For Scotland maintains that other existing health and safety legislation, exactly the same as that in England and Wales, means that the Scottish public does not require any additional entertainment licensing in already liquor licesened premises.

Our Government really have not made the case for, or established the need, for the increased scope of the proposed entertainment licensing requirement licensing. I think that our Noble Lords in their debate 12 Decenmber, are beginning are making that point rather clear, even to the, so far imovable Government proposers of the legislation. They deal with this with gentle humour, which you may find entertaining, if you can sort through the strange processes on the following Hansard account.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:44 AM

Petition Clarification.

The above is a thread started by Graham Dixon to explain the petition as regards welcome overseas contributions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 09:40 AM

Just signed as 502. And looking through the signatiries I've foudn a few friends whose addresses I'd lost - more for the Christmas Card list...

Here's a link to the forum for comments linked with this petition - that might be a good place to put comments, for example, about how you and all your well-heeled folkie friends are planning to stay away from England until the music is freed up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM

860 signatures since the petition's birth only late on Friday (13th)night is really something!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: nager
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 11:29 PM

I live in Australia but I still have UK nationality as well as Australian .. so I've signed the petition and given my address here in Oz.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 02:55 AM

refresh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 11:10 AM

Currently up to 1667 and topping the charts. We're pushing out e-mails as fast as we can. Trying to get bellringers on board too, as the bill would affect them.

:-)
Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: troubleatmill
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for your continued help promoting this cause.

I've done that much typing today trying today (answering queries - most of them positive but a small number very negative)that my fingers are getting too short to play my guitar.

All the audience members at Gregson Lane Folk Club are cheering.

Graham Dixon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM

Carol singers anywhere outside a church service are liable to be affected as well. That's a point to make in MPs letters ( and faxes via this site. (Sign off with a Happy Christmas and a reminder that this could be the last one where Carol Singers won't be liable to be arrested.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 01:29 PM

This is a terrible thing to try to read Roger! Do you have a view about which sections are significant and how the argument is going please

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

A few edited highlights follow, mainly in the words of Government answers, from the above Licensing Bill debate 12 December. I have selectively edited out of order and have made no attempt whatsoever to be fair. Lord Redesdale btw, is on our side.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The provisions of Schedule 1 do not attempt to discriminate in any way between one kind of music and another, or indeed, to discriminate between one kind of entertainment and another except in the sense that we are concerned with its effect.

But then later on

Recorded music can be quiet and cause few problems to anyone. Live music, on the other hand, can be extremely loud and offensive to some people. Anyone who has been to the Wembley Arena or to the Glastonbury Festival surely would not say that they, being live music, should be exempt from the licensing procedures. Indeed—I hope the Committee will not mind my saying so—anyone who has been to a State banquet will have heard the bagpipers going around the table twice very loudly indeed. That is all right in St George's Hall and in Buckingham Palace, but it would not be much fun if one lived next door.

What we are concerned with is the public safety and avoidance of public nuisance aspects.

Lord Redesdale: I apologise. But there seems to be a theme to some of the Minister's answers that any live music will bring about disorder. I know that some of the original regulations about live music were brought in because it caused disorder in the 16th and 17th centuries. Some of the noble Lord's comments indicate that live music is a cause of disorder and of public nuisance. I did not wish to speak to this amendment but the noble Lord's comments have forced me to. Can the Minister tell us what evidence he has for the assertion that he makes?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have made no such assertion. I am saying that there is no distinction to be made, from the point of view of public safety or public nuisance, between live and recorded music. To single out live music for the purpose of the amendment is to misunderstand both the purpose of the Bill in the way it is drafted and the effect that it has.

And of course the musical dangers presented by the dreaded pop and rock concerts, shaking the very foundations of our schools.

Baroness Blackstone:
The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, referred to the possibility of a teacher or head teacher standing in front of a very large group of 500 or even 1,000 children and possibly having amplification.
That teacher or head teacher is clearly not there for the purposes of entertainment—although some of the pupils might find what he or she has to say entertaining, or might seek to find it entertaining—but for the purpose of instruction. I can again assure the House that entertainment provided without charge for pupils, their parents and other invited guests is not a licensable activity. It is a private event to which the public are not admitted and no charges are made.

However, it would probably be wrong to go further and exempt automatically schools, colleges and universities which stage public and commercial concerts.

They sometimes stage extremely large pop and rock concerts where public disorder can take place.

The public safety implications of such concerts in terms of very loud noise and disturbance are no different from other commercial concerts. I hope that the Committee will accept that point. Some schools put on first-rate commercial performances—sometimes with professional orchestras—but the safety of the public must be our first concern.

But strangely suggest a different approach on crowds attracted to the showing live TV sport in pubs.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: This is a deregulatory Bill and Amendment No. 17 would increase regulation. We have listed several types of entertainment and are providing regulation for those. But these entertainments in themselves are noisy or could constitute public nuisance.

Everyone has television in their own home. It cannot be turned up beyond a certain level without it becoming impossible to hear. We are regulating where we have to; namely, for noisy entertainments, late-night refreshment, fire safety grounds, and so forth.

But the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, and the noble Lord, Redesdale, are saying that the very showing of television—especially the showing of football matches—could give rise to disorder, particularly where alcohol is being sold. I do not deny that.

But the solution is not licensing the showing of television. Televisions are on in the background in pubs all the time, I am sorry to say—with the admirable and notable exception of JD Wetherspoon, which is not the brewery of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson—and we would not want to license them merely because on occasion football is shown and may give rise to disorder.

The solution to disorder arising from the showing of television is by imposing conditions on alcohol licences, not by increasing the regulation of the showing of television itself.

TV of course already needs a licence - And

I repeat our strong belief that the correct way to deal with this issue is by placing conditions on a licence and ensuring that if a licensee permits disorder and noise nuisance on his premises he will face a review of his licence, and it will therefore be in his interests to maintain an orderly public house. However, in view of what ACPO has stated, we shall talk to it again about this matter. I believe that there is a misunderstanding here.

I think that I understand alright - And then back again on sporting matters.

Lord Davies of Oldham: -
We believe that the events should continue to be licensed because only regulation through such a system can ensure public safety and prevent public nuisance and crime and disorder. To exclude indoor sporting events without proper justification would lead to serious problems.-

And

No. We are concerned with events that generate a significant audience involving public safety and health and different from the normal licensing operation governing the pub.

On another issue.

Lord Redesdale: I apologise to the Minister for interrupting at this point. I have a particular question that he may be able to answer now. If a dance floor is already in a venue but is not used for that purpose, does the physical presence of the dance floor mean that an official could say that the premises must be licensed, or does the dance floor have to be removed?

That question has been raised by the industry, because the financial provision of pubs will be affected. What is a dance floor?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I come to the third part of the argument, because we need to consider the matter as a whole. I refer to the availability of licences. One is not going to have a dance floor in a nightclub unless one is proposing to dance, and one is not going to dance except to music—at least, not in my experience.

Any licensed premises, such as a nightclub or pub, which is selling alcohol, is going to have an alcohol licence to start with. At the same time as applying for its alcohol licence, and at no extra charge, it will be able to apply for an entertainment licence.

As I have made clear, the judgment on the entertainment licence will not be made on the basis that the music is live or recorded, or amplified or not amplified.

It will be made on whether an audience is present that needs to be protected on the grounds of public safety, and whether protection is needed for those who live around.

The conditions that will be applied to the licence relate not to whether it is live or recorded or amplified or not amplified but to whether health and safety and public safety requirements are met by the premises and by the emission of noise and other disturbance from the premises.

In other words, they could be controlled in terms of the numbers of decibels, such as a requirement for a lower level of noise later at night. All those matters can be dealt with in the conditions of the individual licence.

This will give a little of the flavour of the difficulties the Government's side are having, in trying to maintain any logical basis for their measures. ……….There is more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 07:08 PM

I think that is the edited highlights!

I get a feeling that the government is on the back foot slightly (Cricketing expression for "on the defensive"). That may make them feel vulnerable, but never hit a politician when he's down: kick him, or he'll get up again.

Therefore this is a good time for the petition and individual letters telling Howells that unamplified music needs no regulation, and even if it did, the folk tradition is important enough to merit exceptionally favourable treatment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 07:20 PM

Can't we make 'Folkie' a religion or ethnic group - it might help focus Blair's attention!

AF


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: CraigS
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM

Folkies already are an ethnic minority, in that UK folkies live in the UK (ie., are ethnic) and have different cultural values to the majority of the population (ie. a love of traditional music). Anybody got any ideas how to utilise this without having to utilise distinctive features? Unless we all wear fluorescent blue suede shoes on Wednesdays, or paint our faces with woad, I can't see how to draw attention. I knew a man 30 years ago who I thought was always a bit scruffy until he told me that he was a devout member of the Sealed Knot, and always wore clothes in keeping with the period. The point is that unless we go around wearing badges or something there's nothing to distinguish us from anyone else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM

Signed, Yours, Aye. Dave (the ancient mariner)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:39 PM

The point is. this law is aimed directly at all kinds of other people, not just those who go in for whatver we might mean by folk music. In this respect we are part of an ethnic majority, made up of all the people of all sorts who are going to find their way of life interered with.

The trouble is, until it's too late, nobody seems to believe it's for real, and that it is likely to affect them. And that goes for most folkies in my experience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM

2362 and rising


Let's make a stink about the proposed PEL - Bring back le Petomain!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 12:08 AM

How about 'Farting Badger' as campaign tune?

The response to the petition is great but it is imortant not to forget our MP's and EDM 331, which seems to be stuck on 30 names?

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=331


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:17 AM

You...know Shambles....I dearly love your threads.

Because one PRO - (establishment) COMMON QUO, from a Yank (tourist) beats

ANYTen 10

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:56 AM

Our noble Lords may claim to understand the subtle differences in the way the Bill proposes to treat the simple singing of Christmas carols and why, but do you?

The situation in the following is simply defended by the Government on the grounds that it is really just the same under current legislation. Is this rather badly missing the point that they are proudly proposing a deregulatory 'reform' of current legislation, in this Bill?

"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice."[Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002. So..........

Carol singers in a shop or station require a licence.

Carol singers in church service do not require a licence.

Carol singers in a church concert do require a licence.

I find that it is rather difficult to square the above and the heavy penalties, with the stated objectives of this 'reform' Bill, or is it just me?

Perhaps we can all ask our MPs to explain and also write to our local papers and ask others to ask their MPs?

http://www.faxyourmp.com/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:22 AM

Killed by the PEL system

See above link for the latest enforcement silliness.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:34 AM

Petition just hit 3,000! Still going strong.

btw Roger
I wonder if you'd mind not adding every new post (or a link in this case) to all the active threads every time. It actually causes quite a lot of bother (you end up opening every thread for the same information) and just clutters up threads that might be better devoted to specific things. This one, for example, is about a petition for an amendment to the new bill and has nothing really to do with the current PEL system.

Just an idea.
:-)
Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:33 PM

3347

I have responded to Ian via PM and would like to point out that I am doing my best to juggle many balls and look after Tony and the children - (no I can't use that).

We all screw up, but can I just ask for a little slack? And that in future all the comments on mine and everyone else's failings be put into personal messages to them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

Letter in the Guardian 17 December 2002

"I see the proposed new entertainment laws (Letters December 14) could mean the end of live public performances of morris dancing and folk music. Oh dear.

Chris McColl
Bournemouth, Dorset"


I semm to descern that this writer may not be a great fan?

The 'Catter' that sent notice to me of the above letter in a PM, did not want me to mention their name, in case they too ended up sharing the flak being thrown at me.

Sad but quite true, I am afraid...........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

3802.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:08 AM

another refresh, The petition is going well, with now nearly 4000 signatures including Mike Harding, Martin Carthy MBE, Norma Waterson, Jez Lowe, Les Barker and half of Punch the Horse.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:45 AM

Just passed 4000. Bell ringers are now involved nationally, and their publication, "The Ringing World" will probably have something about the bill this or next week.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:50 AM

The next interesting milestone is 4962, which is 0.01% of ALL the UK population over 16. 0.01% may not sound a lot, but in 4-5 days, its pretty good going.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:13 AM

I've just signed, and plus emailed a whole load of people about it.... hopefully they will do the same too!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:36 AM

The petition is an excellent piece of work. Very clear and simple to sign up to, and very well worded.
Well done to its organiser Graham Dixon & all concerned.

Kris


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

king brill, well said & i add my heartfelt thanks to Graham Dixon- very well done!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

When I sent a fax to my MP a few days ago I included the text of the petition as a good way of summing up some of the issues.

Good little letter in today's Guardian from a mate of mine, succintly getting across the point it's not just folk music that is under threat:

It's all very well being flippant about folk music (Letters, December 17), but the proposed bill threatens informal music, dancing, hymn services, nativity plays, football terrace chanting, and singing happy birthday in a public place. Spontaneous entertainment will die.
Simon Vogel
Harlow, Essex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM

5092 in only 6 days, is a fantastic response, thanks for everyone's efforts - so far.

My MP commented that he has not (yet) signed EDM 331, as it was a Tory one! I think this is the reason it has not taken off quite like the petition has.

EDM 331 may well have been started by the opposition, but as the wording has been supported by over 5000 people of all voting pursuasions, it can hardly now be considered as a party political EDM.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:10 PM

We have already overtaken the other (finished) E petitions lodged on the Downing St site except for the next target 6633 and the one with the most 11664.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:58 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:09 AM

Petition just made it to 5436.

That was me.

LTS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:47 AM

Kim Howells was on Radio 4 this morning on a program about Miner's Eisteddfods and the cultural and musical roots of the South Wales mining community, which he thought were wonderful. Maybe he ought to sign the petition, to prevent it all being lost!
Cheers
Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:51 AM

Its on 6028 now - and growing literally by the minute. If you view the signatures it tells you how many there are, and if you refresh the screen you can watch it grow. Amazing!!!

Kris


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:04 AM

Its especially amazing when you consider it has only been publicized on a handful of websites/newsgroups and by word-of-mouth. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a national newspaper ran an article and mentioned the address.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkie
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM

I've passed it on to the West Gallery Music Association and they now have a link to the petition from their website


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM

Bit of (rough) science.

You can use the shape of the curve for anything like this to predict a minimum number that it should get to. At the moment, it's been more-or-less on a plateau of 1,600 signatures for the past 3 days and is currently at about 6,500. No sign of the plateau tailing off at the moment, but when it does start there'll be about 1-2 times the daily rate to go. At this stage chances are, therefore, that it will reach at least 10,000.

Bellringers are in, West Gallery Musicians are in, can anybody suggest who to contact next to keep it on its plateau?

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:25 PM

Amateur Drama and Operatic Societies, perhaps. They will need to raise funds and are likely to want to put on concerts to do so. I can't see an appropriate UK newsgroup. Does anyone have a suitable mailing list?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

Well, there's British Choirs on the Net

Ed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

Thanks Ed, I've emailed the organiser there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

I don't think we should forget the other implications of the Bill and the local press.

For it is getting a bit political in the Dorset Evening Echo. Headlines today are Dorchester Civic Society writing to Oliver Letwin MP, West Dorset (Photo), warning of the dangers of 24-hour drinking.

On the Licensing Bill, they are organising WHAT DO YOU THINK? Write to the Editor or email letters@dorset.co.uk.

Is there anything you wish to say?

In the same edition, Chris Lonegan has printed the Petition link and full wording on the Live Gig guide. They have not mentioned the response though. Perhaps you could, there or in your local press?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

This from Hamish Birchall - Please circulate

Hello all! seasoning greetings, happy new year etc. PLEASE put the details of this protest event in your calendar and pass it on to as many people as possible, and please attend if you can. All the best, Caroline

Monday 27 January 2003, 1:00 PM
Parliament Square, London
Mozart's Birthday Silent Protest


To illustrate the apalling impact that the Government's Licensing Bill will have on live and community music-making. Bring your instrument (AND A GAG - medical-type mouth-coverings work well), but don't play it. Contact:
Caroline Kraabel 020 7237 1564.

[Caroline is part of the London Musicians' Collective - HB]

Organiser Caroline Kraabel's email is: kraabel@btinternet.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM

I have already told my (Labour) MP that he ought to sign the EDM, and that our cultural heritage is too important for yah-boo politics.

Has everyone?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:54 PM

7001


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM

PLEASE put the details of this protest event in your calendar and pass it on to as many people as possible, and please attend if you can.   Just in case .. the House of Lords has confirmed that carol singing will be a licensable event (same license that a Landlord has to apply for!

                        Monday 27 January 2003, 1:00 PM
                           Parliament Square, London
                               Mozart's Birthday
                                  Silent Protest

To illustrate the apalling impact that the Government's Licensing Bill will have on live and community music-making.
Bring your instrument (AND A GAG -medical-type mouth-coverings work well),
but don't play it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:37 PM

Presumably Kissograms and suchlike will also be affected. (That's an angkle that might appeal to The Sun...)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:46 PM

i got emails direct from graham d, & from the chester & n.wales folkies.

i'm 3818


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:01 PM

I signed it. How much good it will do, I don't know.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:10 PM

thanks sorch, the more the better.

i downloaded some hardcopy petition forms 2 collect names from various fcs, sar's, & sessions i attend. these r good 2 get from petitioners with no emails or online access.

they can be forwarded direct to:
Graham Dixon,77 Hayfield Avenue,Hoghton, Lancashire PR5 0AX, UK

please feel free 2 do this as USA & other overseas support will be most valuable.

cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:07 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:14 AM

I've emailed Mike Harding, he's going to include the address for the site on his programme, plus he's signed it too.

Ella


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:21 AM

7295 now - and here is the link to it to click on now if you haven't already


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM

7416

As mr happy says, if the good overseas folk wish to help and they have helped already, they could print off the hard copy from the site Kevin linked to above, and use these sheets locally to collect names and addresses.

There is plenty of time really as long as the finished sheets get posted to Graham before 15 March.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM

Is there somethin special about that date 15th March? Because St Patricks Night might perhaps be a good time to get some more people to sign up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:02 AM

As far as I know Graham just plucked this date out of the air because we needed one. He did ask me for a suggested date but had input this date before I could get back to him. It seems as good a date as any......Perhaps we can find some significance for this date, if there is not one?

Any formal media attended presentation of a petition could take place on any date after 15 March.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM

In private homes, at private parties??!! You've got to be kidding!! Is Oliver Cromwell back, or what? (and please, no comments on the current U.S. administration; they probably just haven't thought of this yet!) I will send an email as soon as I get home; I can't do it from this computer. Good Luck!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:48 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM

Bit of a jackpot today in the Guardian! There were three long letters from Eliza Carthy, Mike Harding and Hamish respectively and Hamish also managed to get the address of the online petition into his article.

======

Licensed to kill music

Saturday December 21, 2002
The Guardian

A lot of people enjoy both visiting folk clubs and watching Morris dancing and they would rather the government didn't punish them for doing so (Letters, December 17). However unfashionable Chris McColl might deem said activities and how far above them he might consider himself and his fabulous taste to be, the proposed music licensing bill is nothing but a pathetic attempt to squeeze money out of local landlords, church activities and amateur musicians. It will kill what is left of our struggling traditions and regulate and charge for every last thing we do when we step outside of our houses.
It will discourage all small live music events and sink independent businesses. It will remove public stages for young and upcoming artists of all music genres and encourage the opening of corporate "meat market" TV pubs. It will stifle community events and charge a good deal of them out of existence; it will ensure that churches will sit empty for most of the year.

With the little energy it took Mr McColl to write his cheap joke, he could have discovered just how dangerous and insensitive the proposed legislation is, and what a devastating effect it could have on our modern culture, as well as our ancient.
Eliza Carthy
Heriot, Borders

· England is the only country I can think of that has virtually no respect for its own national culture. Here in Ireland, traditional music and dance in pubs is common and people are fiercely proud of their traditions. In the US, the Smithsonian has a massive archive of traditional music and pretty much every country in Europe has a government-sponsored centre keeping alive its traditional music.

Close to a million listeners tune in to my Radio 2 programme each Wednesday, 60,000 people go to the Sidmouth festival and hundreds of thousands go to Cambridge and the many other folk festivals about the country.

If this bill goes through, then music-making in our pubs will pretty much disappear, except for the juke box and kareoke machine: folk, Christmas carols, mummers plays, Morris dancing - all of them will become subject to control and licensing.

Kim Howells, the minister concerned, promised me on my programme that people making music in traditional sessions and folk clubs would not be penalised. It now looks as though I was hoodwinked. Why is this government so concerned with controlling every aspect of our lives? Why is a Labour government trying to kill the music of the people?

If this bill had been current 30 years ago, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, Rod Stewart, Mark Knopfler, Donovan, Ewan McColl, Bob Dylan, Gerry Rafferty, Billy Connolly, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell and the writers Willy Russell and Brian Jacques might all have had different careers, since all of them at some time served their dues in England's folk clubs.

This bill is an infringement of our rights as human beings to make music for the sheer joy of it - the very thing that fuelled so much of the early left in this country - and New Labour should hang its head in shame.
Mike Harding
Connemara, Ireland
mikeh@dent.demon.co.uk

· Last week Andrew McIntosh, a government whip in the Lords, confirmed that carol singing in public places will remain a criminal offence unless licensed: maximum penalty, a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. It is already a criminal offence to encourage community-style singing in over 100,000 licensed premises in England and Wales. But the bill requires the licensing of any public performance of live music and defines "premises" as "any place" (clause 188). That means your front room, garden, any street, park, field etc.

The Musicians' Union is campaigning vigorously to prevent the government making this country the laughing stock of Europe (see also the online petition, www.musiclovers.ukart.com
Hamish Birchall
Consultant on licensing to the Musician's Union


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:08 AM

I was thinking it might be an idea to send Kim Howells a Christmas Greeting saying "Hands off our music", so I tried to visit the UK Government website, to try to check up what his job title is and so forth.

Up comes this message: ukonline.gov.uk is temporarily unavailable. Service will be restored as soon as possible. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. Please try again later.

This seems very appropriate somehow. They mouth off about the importance of communication and open government and that, but when you get down to it "ukonline.gov.uk is temporarily unavailable"...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Llanfair
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:51 AM

Two more signatures, mine and Jim's, his from a different source than the Mudcat.

It will be up to 10,000 soon.

Cheers, Bron.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

From Hamish (MU)

The Licensing Bill will be discussed on BBC Radio 4, You and Yours, on Monday 23 December, between 12.30 and 12.55pm.

Sheila Miller, who runs 'The Cellar Upstairs' folk club in London, will be talking about the live music implications. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, will talk about the implications for smaller breweries.

See also today's Guardian. Three hard-hitting letters: one from Mike Harding, one from Eliza Carthy, and one from your's truly.

Online petition reached 9,000 this morning: www.musiclovers.ukart.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM

The Salvation Army.

They were out today with cornets etc. Are they aware of the impending restrictions. They were being watched by a large crowd, gathering donations. In the crowd were two police constables, tapping to the music. Post licensing, would they wade in an arrest them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:34 PM

The Hari Krishna lot could be up against it too, if the exemption for religious services is confined to registered church premises. And how about "house churches"?

I suppose the Trooping of the Colour and the Chaging of the Guard and so forth would be covered by some kind of Crown immunity.

Actually I think we've got the bastards on the run. The worry all along has been that it would go through on the nod with noone taking the risk seriously. That won't happen now, and I anticipate that there will be quite a few changes in the legislation that actually gets through. But we'd better be watching these changes like hawks, because these wallies don't know the first thing about these kinds of things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:38 PM

Howells is kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk

The problem is not that they don't know, it's that they are actively hostile, and change is seen as weakness unless it is only to decive the enemy (ie the public).

Remember, to Howells, three folk singers in a pub is his idea of hell. His words, not mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM

Howells is kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk

The problem is not that they don't know, it's that they are actively hostile, and change is seen as weakness unless it is only to decive the enemy (ie the public).

Remember, to Howells, three folk singers in a pub is his idea of hell. His words, not mine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM

His idea of a crowd pleasing joke. I doubt very much if this is an issue any politician is seriously interested in to the extent of courting unpopularity.

I think there is a built-in belief that all aspects of human life ought to be regulated, and that any activity that isn't built around moneymaking is to be regarded with suspicion - and of course they hate doing anything that involves admitting they've got it wrong.

But the real worry has been apathy - and the fact that for a long time it was very hard to get anybody involved in folk music and other informal music-making, to take this seriously was especially worrying, because if we don't think it matters, who will?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:32 AM

We must not lose.
Regards, Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM

10,000 reached at 08:56 UK time, 22 December. It seems to be slowing a little to me, although I would expect Sunday morning to be slow! Can IanC try another analysis? Will we exceed 11660, which is the largest e-petition to date?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:21 AM

We must not lose.
Regards, Dave


I fear in the sense that this Bill WILL be passed and WILL become law - we alrady have lost........... Merry Christmas.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 10:04 AM

there is now over 10,000 names on it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:47 PM

I predict there will be a fair number of amendments tabled, and some of them will be accepted.

And one good thing about the bill is, paradoxically, that it criminalises the musicians as such who persist in playing in unlicensed premises, which means that there would now be room for a civil disobedience campaign.

It also looks as if unless there are signifucant amendments, musicians playing on demonstrations, for example against the war, will fall within the scope of the act. And I can't see how that cold be legal under human rights legislation.

This has real possibilities.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

DMcG

It's at 10753 now so very little chance of it not passing 11660, I think. If it seriously looks like slowing down tomorrow, I'll attempt some more serious predicting.

BTW my e-mail to "The Ringing World" got published in the star spot on Friday (much to my surprise as I didn't write it for publication as such). Bellringers are seriously into the web, so I think they are probably already contributing to the petition by now and should help out quite a bit next week (there are a few 1000s).

If anyone else is a member of a similar group (e.g. church choir, Sal. Army band etc) then you know about the particular infrastructure ... a letter to "The Salvationist", for example, would probably work wonders.

The Church authorities have been a bit disappointing so far ... they seem to have used their influence to persuade Kim Howells to grant them some kind of exemption (as yet unstated). Is there anyone who could work on their sense of solidarity with other groups?

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:32 PM

The new head of the Church of England chose an Incredible Sring Band song on his recent Desert Island Discs show.

It contained the words-

'I can tell by the sadness in your eyes, that you never quite leaned the song.'

Perhaps he could be approached?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:45 PM

Well he looks all right, I'd say (and that links to contact details among other things.)

But then I might be prejudiced.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:21 PM

Looks as if you have been moonlighting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:27 PM

The Press Office, Lambeth Palace, London SE1 7JU
Tel: 020 7898 1200
Fax: 020 7261 1765


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:01 AM

DMcG asked me to post my e-mail(s) to "The Ringing World" ... what they published was a conglomerate of to so I'll post the whole conversation ...
____________________________________________________________________

I think that ringers should know that the new licensing bill going through parliament will almost certainly, as presently worded, catch bellringers and mean that, without a license (cosing annually £500 to £5000 per annum) no bell ringing is likely to be allowed.

This bill is supposed to be aimed at making 24 hour licensing of pubs possible, but the entertainment clause as it is currently written will affect morris dancers, carol singers, church concerts and bell ringers.

Ringers may wish to join in the protest by signing the petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

Best regards
Ian Chandler
St Mary's, Ashwell, Herts.
_____________________________________________________________________

Ian,

Thanks for this. I presume that you mean that this will stop ringers
serving beer at ringing functions - dinners, fundraising events and the
like? Or have I got the wrong end of ye stick?

Thanks,

Robert
_____________________________________________________________________

No, this is far more serious.

It means that a license is required for ANY LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCE at ANY VENUE ... the bill does not limit itself to pubs and clubs in this respect. The definition of a venue given in the bill is ANYWHERE. Bell ringing is, to my understanding a live musical performance.

What I mean is simply that a license will be required for BELLRINGING, unless the bill is re-worded.

Here's a link to the recent House of Lords debate (it's quite long and goes on far beyond the end of the page ...)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

Here's the text of the bill. You should note that local authorities are known at present for their VERY LITERAL interpretation of the concept of entertainment.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/001/03001.i-viii.html

Best regards
Ian
____________________________________________________________________

Hope that's useful.

BTW we're at nearly 12,000 by now. No sign of a slowdon so that there's every chance it'll go over 15,000 unless Christmas intervenes or something...

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:10 AM

11,886!

This petition now beats the highest finshed E petition lodged at No 10 Downing St!

Not bad in (just over) the first week. Well done to everyone who has signed and especially those who helped to circulate the petition to enable so many people to already sign.

It is a great effort but we still have a long way to go, if the views of those who have signed are actually going to make a difference.

Merry Christmas! - To all our readers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM

is it handbell ringing or church bell ringing or both?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

church bell ringing but they do ring (not tunes) on handbells also.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:36 AM

11912 Total Signatures to petition at www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Will they [the government]take any notice?

is there a history or precedent of governments changing laws or proposed legislation due to public outcrys like these?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM

Did you hear You and Yours on Radion 4 today. Looks like there will be amendments to allow exemptions for churches. Put to bill sponsor that Howells hates Folk Music and this his his revenge. On the web site for Department of Culture he lists his interests as listening to Jazz. Ought to ban that and quick then.

I got the impression however that the sponsoring MP from Selby couldn't belive his own Bill in parts. Man from real ale brewery was very good...man from Dublin said pubs there open all hours - had made no difference. MP from Selby said it was much quieter now in Douglas in the Isle of Man. Did not know this was a hotbed of disorder.

Happy Christmas and New Year

PS Have written to Tessa Jowell about Kim Howells - hoping she has some control over him


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkie
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:03 AM

BBC Hereford and Worcester have just put a link to the petition on their website.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM

From Hamish (MU)


Please forward

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill has just passed the 12,000 signature mark:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar

While licensing Minister Kim Howells has announced a government 'rethink' on the licensing of all secular music in churches, there is no sign of movement over the 'none in a bar' position for everywhere else.

The government is trying to spin their way out of public opposition by claiming the new live music licence will be cheap and easy to obtain. It is in fact highly unlikely that licences will be either easy or cheap to get. The Local Government Association has recently circulated a discussion paper which envisages licence applications for live music detailing the style of music, the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to play, and when. Such a prescriptive approach might be appropriate for premises where live music is the main business, but it is unworkable for informal folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions in pubs or bars.

Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, claims that if pubs opt for live music under the new regime many could face local authority licence conditions costing up to £10,000. Certainly I have heard that even small acoustic folk pubs are being required to provide door supervisors (to count people in and out) and to install double glazing.

Remember that the Bill exempts broadcast or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified. The government has looked carefully at safety and noise legislation and concluded that it is adequate to deal with noisy crowds jumping up and down in pubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM

12517


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:02 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Partridge
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM

12632
Faxed my MP as well about 2 weeks ago - no reply surpise surprise!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 AM

I see there is a Jools Holland thread. I wonder if he and Billy Bragg could influence Kim Ill Sung Howells and his music control. He claims to like Jazz but hates folk? I have already enlisted Mike Harding but he is fortunate enough to life in Connemara, Ireland and whilst he cares there is no problem there.

Anyone know any contacts?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:58 AM

Hi ET, it was me what started the "Jools Holland" thread, you can contact him directly through his website, just put Jools Holland in your search engine to find it.
Billy Bragg, is contactable through his agent, I cant remember who it is at the minute, and i am just about to go to town for shopping, but i will try to find out when i get back.john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM

West Dorset District Council, where they prevented the mummers play, is Billy Bragg's local council!!!!

Can someone give him a little nudge?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM

13,919

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar&1


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:28 AM

14,090.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

14,194


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM

14346


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

14606


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM

We need to widen the appeal now.

I know many of os have little to do wioth tehm but it is going to affect Church groups too!

If you know anyone active in a church get some contact details and circulate the info.

What is the Voting population of UK?
What is the over 16 population of UK?

We need som statistics!

Shambles you seem to be doing a great job.

Wha tis the response to 27th Janury - I'll b using up my last day of leave for it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: rock chick
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM

14610

rc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:05 PM

14611 at 03.08 uk time


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

So forgetting Party Politics I got this back form John Redwood today!

Thank you for your e mail. I quite agree with you, and I am writing to
Ministers to tell them of my displeasure, and the views of many of my
constituents who also oppose this measure. With best wishes for 2003.
Yours sincerely John Redwood


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM

15007.

At least that many believe, Sham, even if Fionn doesn't


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:42 PM

15,383.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:03 AM

15592

Fiddler wanted some statistics. The UK Office of National Statistics is the place to go. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/ will give lots of info, including an Excel spreadsheet with the population in each category.

In yesterdays "Observer", there was a review of 2002 by 'celebs' asked to vote for highlights and turkeys. Here's the 'Turkey' from one Eliza Carthy:

Turkey: Kim Howells, the Minister in charge of the new 'two-in-a-bar' legislation which has resulted in a number of folk venues being closed down. Will he sleep at night when he realises he's killing off our indigenous culture?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:44 AM

15,629 @ 09.47am UK time


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM

16,045 17.00 hrs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:31 PM

OK then Simple stats

Based on UK Over 18 Population (therby able to vote
at 16066 (just checked) 0.035% (45.4 mill) good going!
Based on over 16 (out of interest - 46.9 mill)0.034%

England and Wales only varies these totals to 0.4 and 0.39 respectively.

Does anyone know if the MU (or anyone else) has stats for the number of people who play instruments at present?

That one would be interesting.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:32 PM

BTW I'll re check these figures from time to time!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

Tuesday December 31, 2002
The Guardian


As a jobbing politician and peripatetic choral singer, and in common with many of your recent correspondents (December 21), I am apprehensive about the consequences for music-making of the government's intention to extend performance licensing. The prospect of mounting effective opposition to the proposal has not been improved by the view taken by the National Federation of Music Societies, under guidance from its chief executive (himself a committed amateur musician), that the extension of licensing is, in the words of its briefing note, "a fait accompli", and that the most appropriate stance for them is therefore to work with the Department of Culture to influence the background guidance to licensing authorities.

But whatever guidance is on offer, councils, spurred on by their insurers, are likely to take a risk-minimising view of the conditions to be imposed on any premises they are required to license for performances and this alone is likely to result in a decrease in the number of performances and the availability of venues in future.
Peter Johnston
Bolton, Lancs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM

Regretably the requirements of Insurance Companies will indeed cause severe problems as they already do in many other spheres of Local Authority activities. Councillors and Officers do take note of their Insurers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM

I've noticed a few duplicate Signatures!

Presumably this is all to be downloaded to Access and checked before submission? If not waht would be the ramifications.......

OK I can be a bit of an anorak when I want - why else do I come on Mudcat - Some of the nicest anoraks in the world can be found here.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:38 AM

There are some duplicates and some completely spurious entries. However, I think these are outweighed, numerically, by the number of times two people have shared a signature (eg entry 146)

There will certainly be some cleanup needed before it is presented.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:57 AM

In every election there are always a certain pecentage of spoilt papers, this does not make the election invalid, does it?

Let us not encourage the 'loonies'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 07:37 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

I also fear that the legislation will go through via the canon fodder of MP's but keeping the pressure up should be good. There are concerns in the Department that Local Authorities will run amok, hence centralised fees. The Local Government Association are the body that influences Local Authorities the most. They have a seminar on this subject next spring. See their Web site - search UK Local Government Association


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:19 AM

So the National Federation of Music Societies thinks that this is all a "fait accompli".

I'd have thought that was one organisation that might have been expected to appreciate the truth of the adage "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

In the Times shortly will be an open letter from a Lawyers/performers group, about the Human Rights Aspect of this legislation. Letter sent direct to the Minister. Signatures include that of a QC.

This fine letter can be read now in the following thread.

Folking lawyers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:56 AM

On the subject of fees.

From Morning Advertiser (26/09/02),

Council wants local discretion' to recover £2.5m costs of overseeing licensing Camden to lobby for fees leeway
BY PAUL CHARITY


Camden Council is to lobby the Government for "leeway" in charging licensees to process liquor licence applications when licensing is transferred to it after reform. The council will see the number of licences it oversees leap from 300 to 1,500 after reform and believes its running costs may rise from £500,000 a year to £2.5m. It wants "local discretion" to be able to recover its costs in fees.

PELs cost an average of £1,000 to £1,200 in Camden but two or three premises pay £20,000 a year - it has been suggested by trade leaders the licence fee will be a maximum of £300 after reform.

"It can't be a blanket fee if we are to recover our costs," said Trish O'Flynn, Camden licensing and safety manager. The council also believes that it will need two or three years for the job to be transferred to it smoothly - the Government wants a one year transition period. O'Flynn, who sits on the subgroups drawing up the licensing bill, said: "If the money isn't there the whole system is going to seize up with people waiting inordinate amounts of time for their licences to be processed.

"The London boroughs, in particular, are arguing for a higher fee, because our running costs are that much higher. I know the industry is pushing for the lowest fee level. But if there's no leeway there, then ultimately, it's the licensees that will suffer because their licenses won't be processed."


O'Flynn thinks that boroughs like Camden, with an "articulate population very interested in licensing" might see many more reviews of licensed premises requested by residents than a rural authority, which could add substantially to Camden's costs. On the issue of the transition period, she said a 12-months period meant the council would have to be issuing 25 licences a week. "We're suggesting a two or three year transition period." Camden's lobbying campaign will also argue for greater sovereignty for local authority policy. "We Want to look beyond individual premises to the cumulative impact of premises. Government policy is that there should be less discretion for local authorities than now." Currently, applicants for contested PELs in Camden can expect to wait all average of six months for a decision. "That's why we would like to see the transition staged over two or three years, so you get them arriving 50 at a time or something. It'd be very difficult to process [1,500] all at once." O'Flynn believes a number of local authorities will not be as prepared for reform as Camden. "Everybody needs to understand the complexities of the situation. We're planning ahead - it worries me that not every borough is doing that."

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our. Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."

Pub promo laws unlikey British Beer Pub Association guidelines on pub promotions such as happy hours and drinking games are unlikely to be included in a new licensing bill- despite pressure within the industry from the Portman Group. The alcohol watchdog had originally expressed a preference for reform to incorporate such a code. . But the Portman Group last week published it own tougher code of practice, finally agreed to leave the issue to the BPPA, 'this is somebody else's territory, and, although there were suggestions that we should get involved, in the end we felt this was adequately being dealt with," said Portman Group Director Jean Coussins. BBPA communications director Mark Hastings commented 'we shall be revisiting the guidelines after about a year to see if, they need strengthening, but we're not asking for them to be in a new act as the police already have considerable new powers, including the ability to close a pub for 24 hours."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Schantieman
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM

Possible success - or just an emollient?

I e-mailed my MP (Claire Curtis-Thomas(Labour, Crosby)) imploring her to do something about it. She wrote back (well, she signed it personally) saying she couldn't believe the intention of the Bill was to stop people singing in pubs and that she'd written to the Minister, Baroness Blackstone, asking for clarification.

Happy New Year all


Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Camden Council is to push ahead with a cheaper "unplugged PEL licence" as part of its new "Night in Night Out" licensing policy. The licence is aimed at pubs which want to showcase acoustic, folk and jazz performances. It would cost just 25% of the normal PEL fee. The licence requires less paperwork and limits premises to a 100 capacity and a midningy terminal our . Camden licensing and safety manager Trish O'Flynn said "It's a regular music and dancing licence but with a condition that says there's no amplification whatsoever of any part of the performance. The licence conditions relating to noise will be simpler for licensee and for the officers who are enforcing it."


what's a 'midningy terminal our'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM

For once Camden seem to be thinking but what of the poor s*ds who work as a duo and perform and therby use a small amount of PA to get over the noise in the premises!

It doesn't answer the problem unfortunately.

I still think football matches etc. should be part of it.

By Camdens reckoning an acoustic session of over 100 is dangerous to the public but in the same building a football, rugby or other sport special with praps over 200 is not!!

Come on Camden lets get it better than that!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:01 PM

midnight terminal hour. The thing stops at midnight.

Intersting that the govt says you cannot exempt acoustic music because folk cannot be defined. Funny Camden does not seem to see the same problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

Folk are being encouraged to write to their MPs and are receiving a pretty standard response from the DCMS, which on the surface seems to most uniformed MPs and those who wish to believe what their government tells them, to be a reasonable postion.

Hamish Birchall has taken the time to provide an informed response to this letter, to enable you to return to your MP, and challenge the information the DCMS are providing to them. It is long however and it can be found on the following thread.

PELs for beginners


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM

I have to say "uniformed MPs" is such a good freudian slip....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM

'Evenin all'
16,667.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:54 AM

This is the Musicians Union View of the current shambolic state of the Licensing Bill. No wonder Tony Blair takes a gloomy view of 2003.

For circulation



The Department for Culture, Media and Sport, responsible for the Licensing Bill, has responded to recent enquiries from members of the public concerned about the implications for live music.



The DCMS letters present what appears to be a reasonable package of reforms - provided the reader lacks a detailed knowledge of the contents of the Bill, a clear understanding of the operation of the present PEL regime, or a clear understanding of the subsisting framework of public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation. What the DCMS statements leave out is, of course, also significant. When the missing information is filled in, the DCMS arguments begin to look less convincing.



In response to various requests for clarification, I have taken a recent example from the DCMS replies and introduced my own observations (in blue). These will, I hope, explain why the Musicians' Union is opposing key elements of the government's proposed reforms, and why it continues to argue for an automatic permission for live music in licensed premises such as bars and restaurants, within certain parameters (such as performance times). Similar regimes operate successfully in Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, France and Finland. The Scottish comparison is the most significant since the public safety and noise legislation which regulates performance in this context applies UK-wide. The MU accepts, however, that premises specialising in music, or music and dance (such as nightclubs) may need the exceptional level of control that licensing requires.



The Licensing Bill treats all live music as if it were potentially as lethal as asbestos. This is not only ridiculous, but is a licensing regime liable to abuse by local authorities, and ill behoves a civilised nation. Robin Allen QC, who is advising the MU on the Licensing Bill, has concluded not only that the government's present approach is 'very clearly incompatible with Article 10' [of the European Convention - i.e. freedom of expression], but also that: 'Where live music is concerned, the current Licensing Bill before Parliament is in many respects nonsensical and over-regulatory. It represents an overwhelmingly unjustified interference in the fun, livelihood and cultural life in England and Wales.' There is a more detailed explanation of the Article 10 issues on the MU website: www.musiciansunion.org.uk, and follow links to the Two in a Bar section.



Mr Allen's views are not simply those you might expect from a retained legal adviser. They are shared by the newly-formed, independent lobby group 'Performer-Lawyers', most of whom are amateur musicians.



In 1976 the UK government signed up to an international convention which, among other things, imposed a duty to create an environment in which everyone can participate in the cultural life of the community (International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, Article 15). This would include a duty not only to cherish existing traditional musical forms, but also to create social and economic conditions that allow for the natural development of new forms. This means, at least, making it as easy as possible for musicians, be they amateur or professional, beginner or seasoned performer, to congregate together to make music in premises that are already the focal point of the community.



However, even if the government's Licensing Bill resulted in a ten-fold increase in the number of licensed premises where more than two musicians could perform (i.e. to 50%), that would still leave 50% where a performance by one unamplified singer would be a criminal offence. Combatting social exclusion through the arts was one of this government's key aims, but with the Bill in its present form, it is quite likely that the unlicensed premises would be in the very communities where it is most important to provide the infrastructure for musical participation and access.



Unless significantly amended, the present Licensing Bill would be a cultural straitjacket.



The DCMS letter below was sent on 13 December 2002.


* * *



Dear ....



Thank you for your letter of 26 November to Tony Blair in connection with our proposals for the reform of the current public entertainment licensing laws. I am replying on his behalf.



I appreciate your concerns with regard to the proposals but would like to assure you that the new licensing system would provide increased opportunities for musicians and other performers. It may be helpful if I explain in detail what is proposed. The "two in a bar rule", which is an exemption from the normal requirement for a public entertainment licence, would be abolished for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make as much noise as three without...



It is true that the 'two in a bar rule' is an exemption from the 'normal' requirement for a public entertainment licence (PEL) in England and Wales. However, the word normal, in its plain English sense, could hardly describe the present PEL regime. For example, without a PEL, it is a criminal offence to encourage 'community-style singing' in a pub, or to allow a third musician to join a duo for one number, or indeed to allow any more than the same two people to perform during the course of an evening's entertainment. Morris dancing in a pub, a pub garden or car park is also a criminal offence without a PEL. The PEL regime purports to address overcrowding, noise nuisance and crime and disorder, but it exempts the provision of any amount of broadcast music or sport, or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified.



The PEL regime is, in many respects, an outmoded relic of the 18-century when it was introduced as a crime and disorder measure for rowdy Westminster ale-houses. At that time there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.



This no doubt explains why 233 MPs signed an Early Day Motion (1182) during the last Parliamentary session, condemning the present rules as 'archaic and just plain daft'.



But in abolishing the two in a bar rule, and in fact virtually all other PEL exemptions (such as secular music in churches outside London, private members clubs, etc) the Licensing Bill renders public performance by even one unamplified musician, paid or unpaid, a criminal offence almost anywhere, at any time - unless first licensed. Much private performance is also caught (if raising money for charity, or if performers are paid). However, the exemption for broadcast entertainment, and for 'incidental recorded music' such as provided on a jukebox, is retained. There is no requirement to declare its provision on licence applications.



This exemption is clearly significant insofar as the government has taken a close look at public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation that applies to premises like pubs and bars, and has concluded that it is adequate no matter how crowded a pub might be, no matter how powerful the sound system, no matter what time of day or night (remember bars can apply for 24-hour opening), no matter whether large groups of excited young men jump up and down in the bar, and no matter that these groups are prone to spill out onto the streets afterwards looking for a fight.



On the other hand, a monthly performance by an unamplified guitarist in a restaurant would require notification of and approval by the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the licensing committee of the local authority. If such a performance went ahead unlicensed the licensee could face a maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. The musician could face the same penalty, if they had not first checked that the premises was appropriately authorised for their performance.



Now to the rationale for abolishing the two performer PEL exemption. The DCMS claims this is necessary 'for the perfectly sound reason that one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'. Quite true, but the statement misleadingly implies: 1) licensing is the only way to control noise breakout from pubs; 2) musicians with amplifiers are a major source of noise complaint; 3) 'modern amplification' renders the present regime out of date.



Not one of these justifications bears up under close scrutiny:



1    Noise

Ironically, many of the premises currently responsible for most disturbance to local residents will already hold PELs because the licence is obligatory for late-opening. The overwhelming cause of noise complaints is nothing to do with music (live or recorded), but is due to noisy customers in the vicinity of licensed premises. Abolition of the two performer PEL exemption will do nothing to address that problem.



Irrespective of public entertainment licence controls, there is plenty of legislation to control noise, both pro-actively and reactively. The perception of complainants, and indeed MPs, that the legislation is inadequate, is due largely to ineffective enforcement.



Town and country planning Acts allow for the imposition of pre-emptive noise controls on premises. The present Licensing Act 1964 confers general powers on licensing justices which they use to impose noise-limiting conditions on the grant and renewal of liquor 'on licences' for pubs, bars, restaurants and so on. Under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 all local authorities can serve anticipatory noise abatement notices if they are satisfied a noise nuisance is likely to occur or recur, and all local authorities can seize noisy equipment. The time allowed for compliance with an abatement notice is specified by the local authority and may vary from a requirement to stop the noise 'forthwith' to some longer period, as appears to them appropriate in the circumstances.



Camden used a noise abatement notice to close the Shaftesbury Theatre production of 'Umoja' earlier this year. One resident's complaints were enough. Any breach of a noise abatement notice carries a fine of up to £20,000.



Noise at Work Regulations primarily address employee exposure to excessive noise, but may indirectly bear down on noise breakout. The 90 dBa 'second action limit' currently imposed by this legislation is frequently exceeded by amplified recorded music played in bars. The dBa scale is logarithmic which means that an increase of 3 dBa roughly halves the permitted exposure time. Many DJs and sound systems provide recorded music at levels above 100 dBa, which would mean that any staff exposure of an hour or less would be illegal without wearing some kind of hearing protection. Local authorities are supposed to monitor and enforce this legislation. A new EC Directive would reduce the Noise at Work action limits to 80 dBa (first action limit) and 85 dBa (second action limit).



Justices on licences may be revoked on the grounds that a pub has caused noise nuisance problems for local residents. From memory I understand the police can instigate such proceedings using powers under Section 20 (A) of the Licensing Act 1964. Since December 2001 the police have had the power to close noisy pubs immediately for up to 24 hours (Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001, amended the Licensing Act 1964) .



No doubt this is why the National Society for Clean Air recently reported that: 'In general local authorities are content with the flexibility the nuisance provisions allow. However, for adequate enforcement there is a need for clarification (for officers and the public) and better resourcing.' [NSCA National Noise Survey 2002, p6].



Residents Associations in the heart of London recognise that noise breakout from within premises can already be controlled. During a noise nuisance workshop held at a major national conference on licensing reform last year, John Bos, co-ordinator of the Covent Garden Community Associatoin said: 'We agreed that there were two answers to the questions posed in the workshop. "Can it [noise] be controlled?" The answer is "yes" if it comes from premises, and "no" if it comes from people in the street...the main problem is not noise emanating from premises, it's not music bellowing out with dance and disco, or what have you, it's actually noise from people when they arrive or leave, in the street.' [Open All Hours, Report of the National Conference of Licensing Reform, 24 March 2001, Civic Trust]



2    Noise from live musicians a major problem?

Absolutely not. The Noise Abatement Society confirmed that 81% of noise complaints concerning licensed premises are caused by noisy people outside. The remainder are largely caused by noisy amplified recorded music and noisy machinery. While it is perfectly true that powerfully amplified live bands can be a problem on occasion, the UK Noise Association have said that it is rare for them to receive complaints about live music. They get more complaints about loud amplified pre-recorded music. The Institute of Alcohol Studies sponsors the Open All Hours consultation, and canvasses the views of residents' associations on licensing issues. The IAS informed me that no residents' associations have ever made an issue of live music. Their overwhelming preoccupation is how to curb anti-social behaviour of people in the vicinity of licensed premises.



3    The two in a bar rule must be abolished because of musicians' access to modern amplification

Wrong again. Amplified guitars were in widespread use in the 1950s. The two performer exemption was first introduced in the Licensing Act 1961. Heavily amplified pub rock thrived during the 60s and 70s. At that time magistrates controlled the PEL regime, and fees were purely nominal. All that changed in the early 80s when responsibility for PELs was transferred to local authorities, and legislation amended to allow for 'cost recovery' fees. The decline of grass roots gigs dates from this period.



... I am confident that the proposed reforms would provide a licensing framework within which musical performance and dance could thrive and develop, while providing adequate protection for the local people in the community.

This unlikely to be true for pubs, bars or restaurants. In September the licensing Minister, Kim Howells, said that if the Musicians' Union were to lobby for satellite tv to become a licensable entertainment (this is not the MU position), this would be 'resisted robustly' by the leisure industry. Licensed industry commentators do not believe that the existing 5% take-up of PELs will increase significantly during transition from the present to the new licensing regime. The reason is that among licensees there is a profound mistrust of local authorities, due in large part to the well-documented record of over-zealous PEL enforcement. In 2000 even the Home Office officially warned local authorities to ease up on PEL conditions, but few, if any, took notice (Home Office Circular 13/2000). In a recent survey by the trade press (Morning Advertiser), 94% of 1,000 landlords questioned said they would prefer magistrates to control licensing.



The main purpose of this Bill is to allow pubs and bars to open later more easily. In transition most landlords will not want to delay their applications with applications for licensable entertainment that are likely to run into local opposition, and which could reduce the number of people allowed in the premises. This sector of the leisure industry does not believe for one moment that local authorities will adhere to the government's published guidance. Even PEL applications for unamplified live music trigger conditions such as the provision of door supervisors, the setting of a lower capacity for the premises, installation of more toilets and double glazing. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, has estimated the average cost of compliance at £10,000 per pub. Local authorities would argue strongly that such conditions are 'necessary', but unless licensees have £5,000 spare cash, any appeal to the courts over disputed conditions will be out of the question. Far simpler to stick to the non-licensable entertainments, such as satellite tv and the jukebox.



The Local Government Association recently circulated a paper to the DCMS licensing advisory panel, suggesting that if any live music is to be considered, new licence application forms should require licensees to state the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to perform, and when. This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the way in which traditional folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions, operate. If adopted, this would undoubtedly mean a continuation of the wholly pointless and depressing cycle of local authority enforcement whereby the number of performers are counted by undercover licensing officers, followed by a swift letter threatening criminal prosecution if an appropriate authorisation is not in force.



In order to vary such conditions, such as increasing the number of performers by one, or indeed obtaining permission to have one live performer, an application to 'vary' the existing licence would have to be made. This would entail payment of a fee (amount not yet known), and notification and approval of the police, fire service, local authority environmental health department, local residents, and finally the local authority licensing committee. 'Necessary' conditions could be imposed, with all the cost implications.



Under the new licensing regime, the concept of a public entertainment licence would completely disappear.

That is simply nonsense: the title of the licence is changed, but for all practical purposes its function, and operation, is largely the same. Indeed its scope, as far as entertainment is concerned, is significantly increased, bringing within the licensing regime for the first time 15,000 churches outside London, all 5,000 registered members clubs, 110,000 licensed premises such as restaurants, pubs, bars and hotels, and hundreds of thousands of hitherto private events where the performance is to raise money for charity, entertainment agencies are engaged to provide live music or DJs for private functions, or indeed where performers are directly engaged for the same purpose. It would appear that historical battle re-enactments are also newly criminalised (unless licensed), as is horse-and-carriage racing.



Permission to sell alcohol, provide public entertainment, stage a play, show a film or provide late night refreshment would be integrated into a single licence - the "premises licence". This would integrate six existing licensing regimes into one, cutting at a stroke significant amounts of red tape.

Given the huge increase in the potential number of licences to be issued, the increased workload for local authorities, and enforcement for non-compliance, this looks like a significant increase in red tape. As Baroness Buscombe commented in the Lords during the first Committee debate on 12 December: 'We believe passionately that this is entirely against what we were led to believe; that is, that this would be a deregulatory measure. The Bill will give us more regulation, more red tape, and more cost.'



Accordingly, under our proposals, any public house would need to obtain permission to sell alcohol for consumption on those premises and would be free to apply simultaneously for permission to put on music or dancing or similar entertainment whenever desired. The fee for such a premises licence would be no different whether the pub simply seeks permission to sell alcohol or if it decides to go for multiple permissions. There would therefore be no deterrent to seeking multiple permissions. The position row is that many pubs are wary of obtaining a separate public entertainment licence because the costs can be prohibitive in some local authority areas.

This is disingenuous: the licence fee would be no different only if the application to host licensable entertainment was made at the point of transition from the old to the new regime. If permission is not sought at that time, the present right of licensed premises to host one or two live performers will lapse, and could only be reinstated by applying to vary the new premises licence. As already mentioned, this would require payment of a fee. 'Necessary' conditions, of course, have significant cost implications, again as already discussed. These are sometimes referred to as 'hidden' costs of compliance, and are probably the greatest deterrent to the provision of licensable entertainment such as live music.



Subject to our continuing discussions with stakeholders, any variation in fees would more likely relate to the capacity of the venue so that smaller venues pay less than large ones. The fees would also be set centrally by the Secretary of State to eradicate the wide and sometimes unjustified inconsistencies that presently exist.

Centrally-set fees are one measure welcomed by the Musicians' Union.



The premises licence would also set the hours that the premises may open for its activities, and set fair, necessary and proportionate conditions under which these activities may take place. This would achieve three important purposes: the prevention of crime and disorder; the assurance of public safety and the prevention of undue public nuisance. It is essential that the greater freedom and opportunities which would be available to licensees and performers are balanced with powers to deal with the small minority who might abuse such freedom, damage communities and bring the industry into disrepute. Under the new regime, local residents would have the right to object to the grant of a licence or certain parts of the operator's proposals and to have their views considered. This means, for example, that any conditions affecting noise being emitted from the premises might be more restrictive after, say midnight, than before.

This might make some sense if the licensing regime was consistent and only applied to high-risk entertainments. But of course it is all-embracing, and is manifestly inconsistent as demonstrated by the uniformly harsh treatment of live music alongside the exemption for amplified broadcast entertainment. Indeed, since there is no requirement to disclose broadcast entertainment, or the provision of 'incidental' recorded music on licence applications, local residents will be denied any chance to comment about that. The present proposals are unlikely to make any impact on the nuisance caused by people outside premises, and that probably explains why the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has hastily commissioned an investigation into the noise nuisance implications of the Licensing Bill.



Public entertainment, which would be covered by the premises licence, would be defined as music or dancing, or entertainment of a like kind, which is presented publicly for commercial purposes or for gain. Public singing which is not undertaken for profit or gain would not be affected.

Very confusing. The Bill defines music as '...vocal or instrumental music or any combination of the two' (Schedule 1, para 16) and defines 'premises' as 'any place' (Clause 188). 'Entertainment' is defined, among other things, as 'a performance of live music... in the presence of an audience... provided for the purpose, or purposes which include the purpose, of entertaining that audience' (Sch 1, para 2(f)). The presence of any spectators constitutes an audience (Sch 1, para 2(2)).



If the place is 'made available' (Sch 1, para 1(3)) so as to enable the entertainment, and if it is 'to any extent for members of the public or a section of the public' (Sch 1, para 1(2)(a)) then the public singing would be illegal unless licensed.



This presumably explains why, during the 12 December 2002 Lords Committee debate on the Licensing Bill, Andrew McIntosh, a government whip, confirmed that carol singing in public places such as railway stations or supermarkets would require a licence. Expert licensing lawyers agree that virtually all public singing, whether paid or not, is in fact caught by the new regime, although the government denies that this was their intention.



We would not accept that it is the case that certain types of music, for example acoustic, are never "noisy" or that they should be excluded from the licensing regime.

In view of the exemption for amplified broadcast music, or amplified 'incidental' recorded music, however powerful the equipment used, this statement is absurd.



If public music is to be performed at a premises, then the licensing authority would have the power to impose necessary and proportionate conditions in order to protect residents and customers. The conditions would not be standardized. The licensing authority would be required to tailor them to the style of venue. Major venues staging rock bands would be likely to be the subject of more restrictive conditions than a small pub or club which puts on un-amplified live music.

Independent health and safety experts have confirmed that for all but exceptionally high-risk entertainments (such as large numbers of people dancing to music in confined spaces) local authorities already have adequate powers irrespective of licensing controls.



The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSWA) applies to workplaces where public entertainment is taking place, and might include a pub, restaurant or a church. Under the act employers have a duty to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees as well as the health and safety of others who may be affected by their work activity. The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 state that employers must undertake a risk assessment of their work activity and workplace. If a landlord of a pub employs a couple of musicians to perform he has to ensure that this activity can be done safely. To do this he will have had to, as a requirement of the Management Regulations, undertaken a risk assessment to identify and control any hazards such as the increased risk of fire or the added burden placed on any electrical systems. Regardless of the requirements or conditions of a licence, employers have a duty to ensure that they meet the minimum requirements of health and safety legislation, and the government has in effect indicated that it believes these minimum requirements are sufficient in every case where satellite or terrestrial tv is provided for pub customers.



Local authorities are empowered to enforce health and safety legislation at certain premises under the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations* [see ref below] 1998 (and previously under earlier enforcing authority regulations). Therefore, if a local authority inspector visits a workplace and finds that health and safety is not properly managed then they have the power to request that improvements be made or that activities stop until the required health and safety standards have been met.



The fire service has also informed me that their inspectors have a similar power in respect of requiring improvements to be made in the emergency lighting and so on. I understand that under the Fire Precautions Act 1971 they can also close a premises immediately if there is an imminent fire hazard.



* Schedule 1 of the Health and Safety (Enforcing Authority) Regulations sets out the 'Main activities which determine whether local authorities will be enforcing authorities' (i.e. of health and safety legislation). Para 9 stipulates the following activities: 'The practice or presentation of the arts, sports, games, entertainment or other cultural or recreational activities except where the main activity is the exhibition of a cave to the public'.



The statutory requirements for employers to undertake comprehensive risk assessments and the statutory inspection and enforcement duties of the local authority and fire service, are a very powerful combination. A lawyer with licensing and health and safety expertise told me that safe capacities can be achieved through this mechanism, without a licence condition. I think this is why Licensing Minister Kim Howells has never claimed that abolition of the two performer exemption was necessary on public safety grounds. He has only said it is because 'one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'.



The Scottish example demonstrates that where live music is secondary to the main business, and is confined to permitted hours, no additional controls are necessary.



The new reform bill would require local authorities to follow rules and procedures. They would have no discretion to refuse a licence or impose any condition unless a reasonable objection to the licensees operating plan has been raised by the police, an environmental health officer, the fire authority or boat residents. In granting or refusing licences, or imposing any conditions, the local council would be legally bound to take into account guidance issued by the Secretary of State. Departure from this guidance, without a good or valid reason, would provide grounds for an appeal to the courts.

This sounds good, but as already explained, the leisure industry is extremely sceptical that government guidance will produce a sea-change in the way local authorities approach licensable entertainments. Significantly, the guidance has not yet been published, and the Lords have already objected strongly that the Secretary of State will have very strong powers that will not be subject to their scrutiny.



As you may know the Licensing Bill was introduced on 14 November and it must now be for Parliament to debate its merits.

And for concerned members of the public to continue to make representations to their MPs.



Yours sincerely

­Claire Vickers

Alcohol & Entertainment Licensing Division


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:56 AM

What is DCMS please?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:52 AM

DCMS is the Depatment of Culture, Media and Sport. If the clicky hasn't worked, there web site is at http://www.culture.gov.uk/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM

At the beginning of 2003, we now over 17,000 people who do understand what the Bill means in practice.

This is a great response!

But we still have a big job to convince our MPs and media, that the Government really are not aware of the serious implications or the Bill, of what their own Bill actually contains.......

And to get those MPs to reflect, in the Commons where it matters, the views of the people who will be voting for them locally.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

Clause 20 of their guidance notices (cl 177 of the Bill) says

"finally, it would be recommended that proper account is taken of the need to promote live music, dancing and theatre for the wider cultural benefit of communities generally".

This wooly stuff is to be part of the guidance notes to local authorities. This will have them shaking in their shoes!!!

I agree very much with Shambles that MP's do not understand what they are doing here. I doubt if the Department of Culture does really!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:21 AM

For circulation

Paul Vaughan is Chairman of the Magistrates' Association in Worcester and Chairman of the Worcester Three Choirs Festival. He has kindly provided me with his view of the Licensing Bill and has given permission to distribute this widely (it will be posted on to the MU website in due course).

Note particularly points 10 and 11 in relation to government arguments that the abolition of existing PEL exemptions is necessary for public safety reasons:

* * *

1) The Government has signalled its intention to remove from Magistrates their responsibility for licensing (broadly alcohol licensing).
2) We have been given no satisfactory reason for this.
3) Properly trained magistrates, formed into licensing committees, have been fulfilling, effectively, efficiently and diligently, a responsibility for licensing for many years. Sitting as a committee of at least three, we maintain that, among many other benefits, this system is corruption proof. I myself am a long-standing licensing chairman.
4) Magistrates hear cases on a daily basis, in which alcohol is cited as a reason for offences being committed. "Your worship, my client was in drink at the time . . ." is an almost daily mantra from defending solicitors. Therefore, there is good reason for Magistrates to continue to make their valuable input into this area of the law. We see the picture (usually in full Technicolor!) from all angles.
5) Magistrates are volunteers. Therefore, all licensing activity by Magistrates has been carried out for countless years very inexpensively, or on an expenses only basis. Apart from full day licensing courts, in the past, it has not been unusual for us to work well into the night on visits to licensed premises; this for no payment whatsoever (apart from the reimbursement of petrol expenses).
6) Local authorities are, in general, delighted to have more powers, and have readily accepted the notion of taking over alcohol licensing, but clearly, they are not going to take over all those responsibilities (formerly the Magistrates') without additional budgetary provision. My Association believes that the costings for setting up new council posts, support staff and so on to cope with the new burden are considerable.
7) We venture to suggest that the imposition of fees on music performance - across the board, from one man in a pub to 500 in a cathedral, is the result of a simple fiscal imperative. Money is needed to enable the councils to take over licensing work from the Magistrates. This has to be generated somehow.
8) Clearly the Government is not going to provide all, if any, of the additional monies necessary and being demanded as a prerequisite by Local Authorities, from central funds ! How simple therefore to impose fees on music - citing health and safety as the plank (or do I mean sieve?) upon which to sail this one up the river.
9) Should this Bill be allowed to proceed - even in an ameliorated form (for example with much reduced fees) - let there be no mistake, once the Bill is enacted, fees would be later variable at a stroke, in an upwards only direction.
10) There has never been a health and safety issue with the Three Choirs Festival Concerts we have been putting on in Worcester, Hereford or Gloucester Cathedrals for the past 275 years, or indeed with those huge number of events which take place as part of the Fringe throughout the City and County. We are already carefully regulated by bodies such as the Fire Brigade, which limits the number of seats we may set out in the Cathedrals, and the disposition of those seats. There has never been an audience placed in peril in our Cathedrals and, to the best of my knowledge, in any other Cathedral in the land. Why then, this sudden rush to "protect the public"?
11) This is 'Yes Minister' politics at play and has nothing to do with public protection.
12) Deregulate licensing by all means - carefully and judiciously - but leave it in the hands of the Magistracy - which have proven themselves safe over many years.

(By way of a postscript, I should add that, as a long-serving magistrate, I am only too aware of the correlation between alcohol and crime. But the practice of tipping all drinkers onto the streets at 11.15pm - many of them having accelerated their intake of alcohol substantially between 10.30pm and 11pm in some sort of race to the bell - is clearly not in the public interest. Many of the tipees are then unable to get into the night clubs (eg. can't afford price of admission, are too drunk, wrong attire/footwear etc) and it is then that the troubles begin. The cost of policing all of this is very high. Ask any police force where the majority of their manpower is disposed between 10.45pm and 2.30am? So, personally, I am very much for the ending of those regulations (permitted hours) which, after all, were originally imposed during WW1 to ensure that munitions workers arrived relatively sober and rested at the munitions factories the next morning. Let people drink up and go home when they please and allow pubs to close when the landlord realises that there are not enough people on the premises to make staying open viable).

With all good wishes
Paul Vaughan
Chairman
The Three Choirs Festival - Worcester
and
Chairman - The Magistrates' Association (Worcestershire)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Nearly 19,000. Well 18,988 to be exact!

The follwing from Hamish Birchall.

With thanks and acknowledgements to MODAL's mailout:

Please come to the first public meeting for proper debate for musicians affected by the Bill. The press will attend.

Monday 6 January, 1pm in the Union Chapel, Compton Terrace, Islington, London.

Speakers include:
Tom Robinson - Musician, broadcaster, and seasoned campaigner
David Heath MP - Liberal-Democrat
Chris Hodgkins - Director of Jazz Services
Hamish Birchall - Musicians' Union adviser


In West Berkshire the Council have called for an open forum on the same day so that licencees and entertainers can meet and discuss the implications. There are some very sensible parts to the Licensing Bill, but little which apply to live music.

This is your chance to really find out the truth. Is the drama becoming a crisis, what can be done and how ?

Be There !

Directions:
Union Chapel, Compton Terrace, N1 2XD is across the road from Highbury & Islington
Tube Station (Victoria Line). Turn right out of the station, cross Upper Street
below the big roundabout and you'll see Union Chapel in front of you.
www.unionchapel.org.uk

For further information contact:

Mark Ringwood
mARKO pOLO
The Barn, Fordwater Lane, Chichester,
West Sussex PO19 6PT
T: 01243 789786 F: 789787
M: 07802 5000 50
www.markopolo.co.uk
www.rootsaroundtheworld.info
www.lostinfrance.org.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM

OK then new stats

Based on UK Over 18 Population (therby able to vote
at 18997(just checked) 0.042 good going!
Based on over 16 0.040%

England and Wales only varies these totals to 0.047 and 0.046 respectively.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

19161 - this is an amazing level of support. I have emailed my MP again badgering him to sign EDM 331.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

19,634.

The point is well made that No 10 Downing Street (i.e. Ali C), do recognise E petions. So if Alistair Campbell says it is OK to recognise that over 19,000 people have signed up to the wording of EDM 331, it must be OK for New Labour MPs in particilar, to reflect the views of this 'focus group' and also sign EDM 331?

It will be interesting to read the reasons why they will not.

EDM 331 Mudcat thread

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=331


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM

IanC, could you have a look at the stats please? As far as I can see the dates of signature are not displayed otherwise I would have tried to inform myself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:47 AM

19871

The only way to work out the stats I can see is to look at the number of signatures against time as shown in this thread.

Referring to the the Fairport thread, we seem to be running at 0.86 Cropredys at the moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:41 AM

Here's a list of the numbers of votes at a date & time. I haven't put all the entries above in, especially where there are several on one day. (Dates are in UK format)

14/12/2002 02:08,39
15/12/2002 19:55,860
16/12/2002 11:10,1667
17/12/2002 09:34,3000
18/12/2002 04:45,4000
19/12/2002 03:09,5436
20/12/2002 05:21,7295
22/12/2002 03:54,10000
23/12/2002 10:10,11886
24/12/2002 04:07,12632
26/12/2002 14:02,13919
28/12/2002 17:15,15007
30/12/2002 04:03,15592
31/12/2002 16:49,16667
03/01/2003 13:47,18988
05/01/2003 03:47,19871

Shoved into Excel and asking for various trend lines suggests that there is, as yet, no way of guessing how high it could go - its still going up fairly smoothly at around 500 per day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:49 AM

19,962.............

Fast nearing another milestone. Who will be number 20,000?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Oaklet
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM

Paul Hickson of Horncastle, Lincs!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:12 AM

i downloaded some hardcopy petition forms 2 collect names from various fcs, sar's, & sessions i attend. these r good 2 get from petitioners with no emails or online access.

Hard copy petition forms can be downloaded & printed from

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lancashirefolk/Petition/PETITION./doc

they can be forwarded direct to:

Graham Dixon – 77 Hayfield Ave – Hoghton – Lancs PR5 0AX
Before 15th March please.


please feel free 2 do this for any folk clubs, sessions, singarounds, or other music/dance events you may attend.


also support from non uk petitioners in USA & other overseas will be most valuable.

cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill passed the 20,000 signature mark at lunchtime today (Sunday 5 Jan 03).


Tell your MP. I have emailed Sunday Times Culture. Have told my MP David Davies. Have told Shadow Culture Secretary. Have told them I have spoken to 20 non musiciains on this subject and non can beleive their ears - tats potentially 20,000 x 20 which is I think 400,000 voters!

Keep up intense pressure. Drive Howells mad. kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk. His assistant Claire Vickers has set up her e-mail to no longer receiving. I wonder why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:05 AM

21063 Total Signatures!!

on epetition + many more on hard copy petitions circulated at folk clubs, sinarounds, sessions etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:58 AM

I've been off the web for a few days rebuilding our main fileserver, so haven't been able to monitor the progress of the petition much until today. Also, the Christmas period was always likely to have an unpredictable effect.

Here's the best I've got so far.

Though there was a decrease to 500 signings per day from the plateau of 1,600, this has now been reversed following the Christmas break.

Today at 10:23 GMT there were 20,932 signatures. Now, 13:56 GMT there are 21,610 ... i.e. 678 signatures in 3.5 hours. This suggests that we're up at around 1,500 signatures per day (or basically where we left off before Christmas). All I can really say, until it starts to drop in a predictable fashion is that you can add at least 3,000 to that number.

So, looks like a minimum of 25,000 at the moment.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

Just sent this brief letter to the editor of the Church of England Newspaper in the hope of stirring them up a bit.

Dear sir

I am writing in response to the Anglican Church's apparent attitude to the new licensing bill currently going through parliament.

If it remains unamended, the bill will by its existence outlaw almost all traditional entertainment in this country. Those affected will include, among many others, Morris Dancers, Folk Musicians, Carol Singers and even Church Bellringers.

When the powers that be in the Anglican church heard that it would also affect concerts held in churches they were, quite rightly, concerned and began lobbying to some considerable effect in the House of Commons. However, the extent of their requests (which, by the way, the government appears to have assented to) was that an exemption should be applied to concerts held in churches.

In the cause of natural justice, I am very surprised that more solidarity with other groups was not shown. Has the church given up on justice, or is it simply seeking special treatment for itself these days?

Yours sincerely
Ian Chandler


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

good one ian!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

Thanks Ian

We don't know for sure what the Government has in mind. I fear that just to waste time and do nothing but wait until this fudge is produced, is not a good move

The pressure should be kept up now, for when they do produce whatever surreal compromise that think will keep the church lobby happy, they are unlikely to change or climb down again and we may have lost the opportunity to kick them when they are down. It is not a good idea to just wait for them to get up again.

The resilience and sheer bare faced cheek of Dr Howells is demonstrated by the following.

Dr. Howells: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will know that, for a long time, the Conservative Government had a chance to get rid of the rule that has existed for 40 years which says that churches inside London have to apply for and receive a licence for the playing and singing of secular music. I hear what he says, but I hope that he will accept that we do not need lessons from the Conservative party on getting rid of the regulations.

This to justify why was proposing in his Bill, not that that his Government were to be credited with getting rid of this rule, but that the licensing requirement for concerts in London churches, which he critises the Tories for not scrapping, should be extended to the rest of England and Wales!

I suspect, if they are still in the mood for a fight, that the most likely outcome is that all chuch concerts should still be subject to the requirement but for free or a reduced rate. That will mean that the fees will go up for other premises, as there will be less premises providing the revenue.

Either way, the fact that they are now being forced to reconsider anything, will give us the opportunity to show up the bogus nature of the basis of the Bill.

If they are not in the mood for a fight, the more that can be thrown at them, at this point, the better. Whether this is the media, our MPs, demos or whatever else.......Especially from the non-church concert lobby.

22,381..........!!!

The following from Graham Dixon.

It's gone balistic today 2000 in 24 hours - I'm getting emails from Jazz - Choirs - Rock - Comedians - War re-enactment societies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM

Has anyone in the football fraternity heard of this bill? I know that it may not be classed, strictly, as 'folk music' yet, but can anyone think of Liverpool Football fans NOT singing 'You'll never walk alone?' and what about the annual Trooping of the Colour, to commemorate the Queen's Official Birthday? The permutations are endless.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM

22,932...............!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

23139!! + as yet uncounted hard copy names!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:41 PM

Will hard copy names count?

According to the government site (linked to at the top of this thread) "The data should have been collected electronically"

Quite how they'd know one way or another, I don't know. It would however be a shame if the petition was disqualified over a technicality.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: READ! UK Music license bill
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:43 PM

This bill is an outrageous assault on traditional music and basic civil liberties!
Here's the petition against it
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/2inabar/
Please read and support as you can


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:44 AM

In case anyone did not know!

Kim Howells now has a standard letter which goes out to MPs as well if she gets a letter about the act. John Redwood forwarded me the copy he got from her.

Interestingly she didn't (or her secretary didn't) have the good grace to fill in the balnk bits left for names etc. and I turned in to a woman (became a her) half way through! I bet the NHS didn't pay for that!!!

I shall consider sending this off to Tony Blair, our erstwhile PM from good old Stillington only about 10 miles from where I was born (as an aside) to emphasise that she may be out of touch with what is going on in the world and only seeing it thorufh rose tinted glasses which can have long lasting effects as has been seen by other political parties in the past. It also shows a level of contempt for those bothering to make any comment. All right so John Redwood is a Conservative in a big way, BUT, I am one of his constituents and no one (in theory) knows if I vote for him or not!!!!

Redwood describes the letter as 'bureaucratic and defensive' I can't say I disagree with him.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:03 AM

Kim Howells is a man...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:06 AM

GUEST, Pete,

Graham Dixon, organiser & co-ordinator of the petition has asked that hardcopies be sent to him.

I'm sure he & his chums will make VERY certain they are counted.

They can be forwarded direct to:

Graham Dixon – 77 Hayfield Ave – Hoghton – Lancs. PR5 0AX
Before 15th March please.

There's a link to Graham's e-mail on www.musiclovers.ukart.com if you've other concerns.

cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:09 AM

I know Kim howells is a man but if he she it can change my sex what's good for the goose etc. - Irony or summat - sorry!!! Only trying to keep amused!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM

Hamish Birchall is on 97.3 FM (UK, London Area) this PM at 3 UK time.

I think I have BBC South East TV interested in the story as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

Radio Lancashire "might" do a phone-in re PEL on thurs 27th FEB - Mobile IT "Blue Bus" will be at The Steamer Pub in Fleetwood Lancashire (Home of the Fylde Folk Festival) on the same day - hope to arrange a "link" with the above - Music in the Pub and plenty of people?????, Petition in the pub and information on hand........

will keep u informed of "what's happening" so anyone who wants to come along can do so.........


Pete Skinner


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:38 AM

23986 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM

I've just come across a fascinating article about Junior Crehan (renowned West Clare fiddle player) here.

It's much more than a biographical note, it explores the whole social background of Irish trad music in the 20th century. It contains an interesting passage on the perverse effects of public performance licensing legislation which almost drove the music to extinction, and some of you might be able to incorporate this into the campaign against PEL:

"The policy of Fianna Fáil was to encourage all things Irish, and in official circles Irish traditional music was elevated to a position second only to the Irish language (itself in steep decline: between 1881 and 1926 the number of Irish speakers in the country had fallen by 41 per cent). The Irish Folklore Commission was founded in 1935 in an attempt to recover and record the vast repository of folklore before swift change overtook the countryside. However, these activities were paralleled by a simultaneous campaign of cultural repression, which succeeded in banning 1,200 books and 140 periodicals between 1930 and 1939. It could not succeed, however, in halting the tide of foreign culture which swept Ireland in the form of films, radio broadcasts and gramophone records, aided by the new mobility provided by the spread of motor transport.

"In 1936, the government, spurred on by the combined weight of clergy, judiciary and police, enacted the Public Dance Halls Act. This required all public dances to be licensed and laid down the conditions under which licences might be issued by the District Justices. As the late Breandán Breathnach pointed out in his excellent booklet, Dancing in Ireland:

'Intentionally or otherwise, country house dancing was not excluded from the scope of the Act ... That it extended to parties in private houses when dancing took place is unlikely ... [but] the local clergy and gardai acted as if it did and by their harassment they put an end to this kind of dancing in those areas of rural Ireland where it still survived.'

"Junior's description of the desolation caused by the economic and social upheavals of the 'thirties is graphic and moving:
'So, they barred the country house dance, and the priests was erecting parish halls. All they wanted was to make money - and they got 3d. into every shilling tax out of the tickets to pay the government for tax. So the country house dance was knocked out then, and 'twas fox-trots, and big old bands coming down, and our type, we'd be in a foreign country then. We couldn't put up with it at all, the noise and the microphones, and jazz and so on ... the music nearly died out altogether - Irish music. Then the emigration started, a lot of the lads I used to play with went off to England and America, and there was no-one but myself - Scully was dead - and I used to go down the road, and I used, honest to God, I used to nearly cry. Nowhere to go, no-one to meet, no sets in the houses, nothing left but the hall ...'

"And so, a movement with the laudable aim of preserving and promoting the culture of the people of rural Ireland had, by a combination of mismanagement, narrow minded bigotry and, most importantly, a total lack of perception of the results of its economic policies on the rural population, virtually succeeded in destroying the traditional culture of Ireland."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 09:45 AM

To business again.

From 14:00 yesterday to 14:00 today, over 2,500 names were added to the petition. While this is probably - in part - a reaction to the Christmas break, there is no doubt that other groups of people are getting to know about it and signing. The total currently stands at 24,289 and it seems likely now that it will go over 30,000 at least.

In the meantime, I have sent the following e-mail to the General Secretary of the National Association of Choirs.

I don't know how closely your association is monitoring the new licensing bill, currently going through parliament. If you are not, you may be surprised to find that, as the bill currently stands, a number of the activities of church choirs may be affected.

It seems likely at present that, due to lobbying by the Anglican Church, concerts held in churches may be exempted. However, many of your member choirs are probably involved in other musical entertainments such as carol singing etc.

This bill is supposed to be aimed at making 24 hour licensing of pubs possible, but the entertainment clause as it is currently written will affect morris dancers, carol singers, church concerts and bell ringers amongst other groups.

The wording at present means that a license is required for ANY LIVE MUSICAL PERFORMANCE at ANY VENUE ... the bill does not limit itself to pubs and clubs in this respect. The definition of a venue given in the bill is essentially ANYWHERE.

Here's the text of the bill. You should note that local authorities are known at present for their VERY LITERAL interpretation of the concept of entertainment.

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/001/03001.i-viii.html

Here's a link to the recent House of Lords debate (it's quite long and goes on far beyond the end of the page ...)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

You may wish to encourage your members to join in the protest by signing the petition

http://www.petitiononline.com/2inabar/petition.html

Best regards
Ian Chandler


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM

some more useful links,

a hardcopy petition to gather signatures from Folk Clubs & 'any other places'

http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

&a 'user friendly' protest flier to be circulated similarly,

Folkwebs.com


cheers,

mr h


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM

The bill is passed
The bill is wrong
I like looking at pretty girls' thongs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM

sorry that second link doesn't work.

it should be:

'& a 'user friendly' protest flier to be circulated similarly,'


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.lawton/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM

24498 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Hamish Birchall is on 97.3 FM (UK, London Area) this PM at 3 UK time.

As that broadcast has just finished it will be interesting to see what effect there is on votes over the next 8 hrs or so.

The broadcast had a couple of interesting features, one of which was that few of the panel or the callers seemed to have heard much about it before. Publicity definitely needs to keep going and to get much wider.

One recurring theme was the bill was almost being dismissed on occasion because no-one could believe it could be as bad as it is being described.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Similar e-mail to the above sent to The Salvation Army press office, with reference to Salvation Army band activities. They do street corner music (not part of a religious service, though religious in nature) and (at least my local band does) play carols in pubs at Christmas.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Got th following reply from Peter Marshall of the National Association of Choirs.

Hi Ian,
Thanks for your note. We have been following the bill and have written to the Minister concerned - no reply!

I tried the links you put in your email but could not get the ones to the bill or HoL to work. Could you please confirm them to me?

I have registered on the '2inabar' petition and have suggested to our members that they do the same.

Regards,
Peter Marshall, General Secretary, NAC


Can anyone suggest anybody else I might contact?

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM

Only the the Pope left?
*Smiles*

Doing a great job, but as reported above and as I am sure we all know, still not enough people are aware of the true horror of the Bill, so we must use whatever method we can to change this.

If that means reading the same stuff more than once, just grin and bear it, it may well be the first time another person has heard of it.

24,846...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

25,169...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:00 AM

Are we in touch with the licenced victuallers etc.

There is an exhibition in London in February perhaps we should see if we can get some publicity or aquire a 'free' spot / stand there possibly liaise with the MU or something.

I'm having lots of spurious thoughts and at least if I throw them at you guys they can be considered and even if you say 'bog off' at least we (or I) know we've been there.

Last night at my Clog and step dance group all apart form two people had signed. One does not have internet therefore he will be my first hard copy signature next week and the other is a magistrate and is involved form a different angle and cannot sign for a number of reasons.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:48 AM

This from Hamish Birchall.

Licensing: Labour backbenchers to meet Howells tomorrow.

With hundreds of letters now pouring into Parliament objecting to the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill, Labour backbenchers are becoming increasingly worried. At very short notice, they have arranged a meeting with licensing Minister Kim Howells. This meeting will be held tomorrow, Thursday 9 January, at noon.

I only learned of this yesterday evening when Martin Linton (Lab, Battersea) contacted me to ask for the names of other Labour MPs who have shown an interest. He wants as many as possible to attend the meeting with Howells.

If your MP is Labour please contact them immediately (the House of Commons switchboard is 020 7219 3000) and urge them to attend this meeting and to register their intention to attend with Martin Linton on 020 7219 1181. If you don't know who your MP is, www.faxyourmp.com will them automatically from your postcode.

A footnote: government Ministers continue dismiss out of hand the legal advice that private events where performers are paid are caught by the Bill. In fact, on the day the Bill was published, the Arts Council received a legal opinion from one of the UK's leading licensing lawyers confirming that corporate hospitality events where performers are paid were licensable under the Bill as published. This contradicted the government's own statement published in the Explanatory Notes that accompany the Bill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 04:38 PM

27,624...........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 06:54 PM

S'okay everyone .. we can stop worrying (tongue in cheek) cos I got this email today:

"I don't know if you have an up-to-date source, but at an INSET day on Monday, we (music teachers) were told that the govt has withdrawn the bill already"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:15 AM

Nice thought BUT.........

27,900.................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:33 AM

28,402...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:17 AM

Great work Shambles - if my maths is right, the total seemes to be rising exponentially !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:14 AM

Noting Hillie's posting if the bill is withdrawn it will only eb a temporary measure till they can find another route!

We should use that to start a dialogue with Miss Howells department and keep things moving. Yup I am still mad at her for changing my sex so being a little flippant here! The background thought is genuine though. I don't beleive they will or cna back down but may now be persuaded to wider and more logical consultation.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:19 AM

Here's the result so far of my correspondence with the Salvation Army.

Mr Chandler

Thank you very much for your e-mail. We are indeed concerned about the Licensing Bill and have made those concerns known to both Baroness Blackstone and Tessa Jowell. We have also highlighted the issue in our internal publications. The latest indications from the Government indicate that they may be willing to reintroduce the exemption for places of worship but we shall keep monitoring events very closely.

Many thanks for your interest.

Jonathan Lomax
Assistant to the Secretary for Communications
101 Newington Causeway
London SE1 6BN
Tel: 020 7367 4619
Fax: 020 7367 4728

----------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan

Thanks for your e-mail. I know about the places of worship lobbying by the anglicans. However, I had thought you would be particularly concerned about street corner music and playing carols in pubs etc. which, I know, is something which our local (Stotfold, Beds) branch of the Salvation Army does.

Best regards
Ian Chandler


On another thread, somebody suggested - tongue in cheek - another group we might take things up with ... I can't find it. I'd be grateful if somebody else were able to as I think we might as well go for the improbable too ... and I'm happy to do the legwork.

With regard to numbers for the petition, things are slowing down very slightly. 2,300 for the last 24 hours - down about 100 each day for the last 2 days. The 2nd order rate is not increasing though, so it's not a decline as yet ... probably just adjusting to the post-Christmas rush.

It's currently standing at over 29,000 so we are almost certainly looking at a minimum of over 35,000 now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM

my hardcopy petitions are getting filled in like hot cakes- there's probably lots more peop collecting names this way all over the place, so when those are delivered & counted in too, Graham should have piles to submit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:29 AM

Poor old Tony Blair, fancy getting Haemaroids from us folkies!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:17 PM

29395 and rising!

Anyone know what happened this afternoon or is that going to be in another thread?

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

Copy e-mail to john whittingdale, shadow culture minister.


The e-petition from musicians and supporters is approaching 30,000 and there are tens of thousands more on hard copy petitions.

There are serious doubts from MP's and the Human Rights Members groups about the compatibility of this with the right to a good nights sleep (i.e. no control of amplified music which causes 99.99 % of complaints and the restriction on the right to expression needing a licence for acoustic music. Kim Howells has about 12 days to reply to these concerns and has a meeting with many labour MPs tomorrow.

The Salvation Army are concern about their music. Mr Howells talks about revisiting churches and licensing secular music in the bill but they would be affected by street playing.

Additionally in the report of the Liverpool Shootings the music at the hairdressers where the party was held was said by the Times to be "ear splitting" in its volume. This is amplified recorded music not needing a licence under the bill. This sort of thing I am sure amplifies not only the music but potential gang trouble. If the hair dresser, charging £10 admission had hired a string quartet (unlikely though that may be) he would have needed a public entertainment licence under the bill!

Copied to Hamish Birchell of the musicians union for information.

Regards

Eric Twigger


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM

For details of today's Back bench meeting which was an astonishing attack on the MU and yet more spin, see the following.

Contact your MPs Urgent etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM

29,997....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:33 AM

3042 - Just checked - WOW

Don't know what it will do if the reports coming out form yesterdays meetings are anything to go by!

I'm gonna write to Tony Blair this weekend, I doubt he will ever see the letter but if we all did then he may get wind that there is a problem. We've obviously made MPs sit up if not the minister and his ministry yet!!!!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:33 AM

IanC,

& i hope Howells gets piles too!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:36 AM

30046 Total Signatures online & anticipate getting piles more in Wrexham tonite.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:59 PM

32098 Signatures online.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 04:07 PM

33,011...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: vindelis
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:11 PM

34186..........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM

Now it's reached 35,000 my last minimum prediction, and is still going fairly well (down to under 1500 a day over the weekend though) we can start asking how far it will go. Still can't really put a firm maximum on it, but here's some Qs & As (this doesn't include the hard copy version).

Q - will it reach 40,000? A - YES

Q - will it reach 50,000 A- most probably ... unless it slows down drastically this week

Q - what is the most it could be by March 15th? A - I don't think it will get beyond 100,000

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:50 AM

46,000-ish is about 1 in a thousand of ALL voters. That would be impressive by any standards.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 02:48 PM

It is up to 35,867 at this point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:50 PM

36,068..............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: BB
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM

I know it was a few days ago, but I've only just had time to read back in this thread - Ian asked who else he might contact. How about the Charity Commissioners, or some of the many charities who have money raised for them by all sorts of 'small' performances? Their incomes are bound to be affected by the bill. (Only problem is that, like EFDSS, they're not supposed to indulge in Politics.) How about carnivals - is there a Carnival Society? Presumably it's going to affect them as well. I imagine many of our traditional customs could be hit - Padstow Mayday, Lewes Bonfire, Ottery tar-barrel rolling, Notting Hill Carnival, etc. They all have 'audiences'. They may not want to draw attention to themselves, but if there's ever any trouble at any of them, the bill gives the authorities the perfect reason to ban them. So, if they can just be persuaded to sign the petition, it would help.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:11 AM

BB. Thanks

I'll try & see if there's a central association of carnival organisers, but they wouldn't be caught by the act. This is because all these types of events already have to have a local council act to allow them to close streets etc. This costs them quite a lot of money but would include all required permissions (including street collecting licenses) as the local council is required to include everything in the act (after all, they're granting it).

Cheers!
Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:02 AM

37,036....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:27 AM

I've just had a look at the numbers.

Apart from weekends (which seem to have special rules of their own) the number of people signing the petition is declining roughly linearly at about 200 a day. It has been doing this for about a week, so this is probably pretty reliable (though when it gets lower, I think it will not be linear as decays seldom are).

Using a linear interpolation from the roughly 37,000 signatures at the moment, this would leave us with a total of about 43,400 signatures some time toward the end of next week or the beginning of the week after.

Assuming the decay is non-linear and therefore goes on for longer, a rough figure of 45,000 might be estimated for the final figure with perhaps a couple of thousand for random extra signatures and a slightly unpredictable effect from the way weekends seem to pan out.

The main way of increasing the final total would be to find new groups who have not yet come across the petition and would be willing to sign.

Keep spreading the word!

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM

37,788.................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:17 AM

Further information from the Lawyers-Performing group indicate a strong intranigence on behalf of the Government - the usual refusal to listen to those actually concerned. Someone thought that Howells was planning more than 100 amendments but no one knows exactly what. Amendments have been drafted by the Lawyers group to extend the 72 hour period of light touch notification to cover the length of a folk festival, and attempts to draft acuoustic exemptions are being made. the government claims that the act is not intended for private functions but the wording of the act indicates otherwise. If you are involved in music as an ancilary to other events, eg historical reenactments, dance troups, etc you will likely become criminalised without the cover of a licence.

This illiberal act really does create an orwellian scene and is of great concern to us all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:48 AM

I'm pleased to see this that "Guitarist" magazine is getting behind the movement.
In this months issue the editors page is devoted to making sure that everyone is aware of the issue and what's at stake.
Surely a petition of this size must make the promoters of this bill think twice!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM

38,953


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall. Please circulate this.

I am very grateful to Molly Barrett for getting this transcript together so quickly. She listened online, and there were some gremlins, so some bits were not easy to hear. When considering Howells' comments ('total fibs that have been put about by Hamish and his colleagues'), bear in mind that the MU conclusions about the Bill are based on QC's advice, they are shared by the independent Performer-Lawyer group, and the Joint Committee on Human Rights has agreed with us that the Bill has the potential to violate performers' rights to freedom of expression under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Transcript of BBC Radio London interview: Robert Elms with Hamish Birchall & Kim Howells, Wednesday January 15, 2003, broadcast at approx 1pm.


RE: [the future of live music,] that's what we're about to discuss, and we're going to discuss that with Hamish Birchall, who's an adviser to the Musicians' Union, and to Kim Howells, who's the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State responsible for changing the licensing laws. Welcome to both of you to BBC London, gentlemen. Hamish, first of all, let's begin with you; I think most people are very happy that the licensing laws are going to change, we'll be able to drink for longer hours, we're being treated as adults in pubs, what's the problem?

HB: Yeah, that aspect of the Bill is something we also have broadly welcomed, but the live music provisions are a problem for us, they seem to go very far in the direction of regulation of live music, they abolish a number of important exemptions that have applied for a long time. We don't really see there's been any justification for abolishing these exemptions, and we don't think there's going to be a really significant increase in the number of venues providing local live music...

RE: So you actually think this a threat to live music? I mean, I've particularly heard that it's a threat to folk music and jazz music and the more traditional forms.

HB: Yeah, forms that rely on more informal gatherings of musicians without a fixed number in small premises like pubs and bars I do think are under threat, yes, they are.

RE: Mr Howells, do you accept this? I'm sure it's not the aim of the Bill, is it?

KH: No, I certainly don't, and Hamish knows far better than this, I don't know why he's been spreading this misinformation around the place. What we're going to do is ensure that any licensee who is going to have live music, as an attraction if you like, for customers to come in, will be able to apply for an entertainments part of his new licence as part of his normal application for an alcohol licence. It won't cost him a penny more, and it'll do away with the absurd rule that we have now at the moment called the 'two in a bar' rule. Now if Hamish and the Musicians' Union want to continue over the next century as we have for so very, very long with only being allowed to have two musicians playing in a restaurant or a pub or any other
licensed premises, well, I think he's mad, and I think we've taken a big step forward and it's going to create many more music venues and give much more freedom of expression to musicians right around the country.

RE: Hamish, you're mad!

HB: [laughter] Yes, well, if I am, then so are all the 38,000 people who have signed the on-line petition opposing the live music elements of this Bill, and a [attempted interruption by KH] team of lawyers who operate independently of the Musicians' Union as well. Now I'm sure the Minister intends to improve matters, but I think perhaps that these provisions were not given adequate consideration. We think that smaller premises will think very hard before seeking this permission which will now apply even to one unamplified musician and yet on the other hand there is an exemption for broadcast entertainment no matter how powerful the amplification used. That's what most people find strange about this Bill.

RE: So, Mr Howells, it seems to me that televisions as loud as you like and yet if someone's singing along with a guitar, you've got to have a licence?

KH: No, it's absolutely not true, and Hamish knows it isn't, and I wish he wouldn't persist with this myth. What's going to happen is this: when somebody applies for a modification to their licence, let's say they want to under the new law be able to stay open until - serve alcohol until two o'clock in the morning. When they make that application they'll be able to put - simply fill in a part of the form which says, I would like also please to be able to put on live music in my pub. It won't cost that person a penny more. What Hamish doesn't tell you is that at the moment if you apply, especially in big cities, as a licensee for an entertainments licence, the local authority, we've heard in some areas, charge you £15,000 a year for
it. Now that's an extreme example, but very often it seems, it's been a nice little earner for local authorities. What we're going to do is set absolute charges. A lifetime premises licence will cost between £100 and £500 depending on the size and location of the premises, and there'll be a £50 to £150 annual charge for that alcohol premises licence. It'll not cost a single penny more to tick the box or fill in the form that says, I would like to have music in my pub. Now how that could be seen as a retrograde step is completely beyond me unless of course you wish to distort it for your own trades union's ends.

RE: It does seem there's a degree of rationalisation here, I mean, the old system was all over the place, wasn't it, and the two in a bar rule was a bit odd, alright, it did enable one man and his dog to have a singalong, but if you wanted a band, you had to have a licence anyway.

HB: Yeah, but this is a none-in-a-bar rule, and contrary to what the minister claimed, of course, there is an exemption in the schedule - it's Paragraph 8 - for the provision of broadcast entertainment. And this Bill applies to any place, it's not just pubs. We've welcomed the (proposal?) and we accept that on the point of application, later on this year, if the Bill is enacted, it will be no additional cost in applying for permission we know the way local authorities operate, they've already said to us that they'd like to stipulate the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises, when they're to perform, and making - treating all live music in that special way when you've created an exemption for a pub to be crammed with people watching a big match just seems disproportionate to us.

RE: Disproportionate, Minister?

KH: No, it isn't disproportionate, and I think Hamish ought to - really ought to be a little less churlish about the way in which he's just accepted - what he's saying is, yes, it might be good, but we know local authorities. He doesn't know local authorities, I believe that most local authorities will be very responsible about it, they'll want in the same way as I do, to see music venues proliferating, and the silly rules, which currently determine how many there are going to be, and the crazy charges which licensees have to pay for music licences and entertainment licences will decrease and make it much easier for musicians to play properly in bands larger than one or two, and by the way, may I say this:

I was recently in a pub, with my wife, and we were sitting there having a chat, and some guy came in with a karaoke machine, two massive amplifiers and nearly blew us out of the premises. That is an absurd situation and makes a mockery of the existing law. That's why we want to change it and that's why we want to make the whole of the system accountable. There will not be exemptions for local
authorities to charge the earth for musicians to play in licensed premises and I'm absolutely certain we'll see more music venues, and not fewer.

RE: How much of it though is down to the discretion of the local authority, if you get a local authority who stubbornly says, we don't want music which they probably perceive as loud teenage gatherings in their area...

KH: Well,

RE: - do they have the right to stop it?

KH: Look, the thing is, Robert, the current law enables them to do that now. They can tell a landlord he's not allowed, or she's not allowed to an entertainments licence, or not allowed to put music on, or whatever. The new regime will mean that frivolous objections will not be entertained. And that local authorities will have to have a very, very sound reason for not
granting an entertainments licence in the same way as it happens at the moment. We think that that'll be - that landlords, licensees of all sorts will see the value of having good live music of all sorts as a pull for customers in their pubs and other licensed premises.

RE: Does this just apply to pubs and licensed premises? 'Cos I've heard lots of stories about weddings and private parties and all sorts of -

KH: No, those are other total fibs that have been put about by Hamish and his colleagues. We've even heard - one guy wrote to us saying that postmen whistling on their rounds [laughter, presumably RE] would need a licence. You know, this is total nonsense and it does the Musicians' Union by the way no good at all to be seen to be spreading these kinds of things. They ought to be adult about it, enter into a proper discussion and help us to get it right.

RE: Hamish, do you think that's what you're doing?

HB: "Total fibs" indeed? That's interesting. Well, it's absolutely clear from the wording of the Bill that any performance of live music that's performed with any intention to entertain in public is licensable and that's it.

KH: What, a whistling p-

RE: No, no, alright - maybe not whistling postman, but will you let me

RE: for example Klesmer bands, Jewish events, whatever it is?

HB: Yes, the bill says that if you charge a fee and that fee is paid on behalf of the people being entertained that triggers the licensing requirement and I should add that this is again also the opinion of the QC advising the Musicians' Union and the independent group of lawyers who have taken a close look at this particular section of the Bill. Now again, I fully accept the Minister's wish that this should not be the case If that were reflected in the wording of the Bill, we'd be very happy. But it's not, the Bill needs clarification. These exemptions should be clearly put, for educational purposes, for private events, etc. But as worded, I'm afraid it's a catch-all Bill.

RE: Kim, could this be an example of unforeseen consequences?

KH: No, certainly not, and we've talked to the licensed trade, we've talked to everyone about this Bill, and I'm very confident that it'll be seen as a civilising measure. Do remember this, by the way, Hamish might not care about it, but there are millions and millions of residents who feel very often that their lives are being made a misery because there is no consideration given to the noise that comes out and so on. [cough] excuse me... and we wanna make sure that those considerations are properly taken into account, properly reflected in the same way as we want the demands and needs
of musicians to be reflected and enshrined in legislation.

RE: Can I put a question to both of you, and, sort of in different ways: if once the Bill does go through and it becomes law - a: to the Minister, if it is stopping live music, if people are getting licences rejected, or if there's a reduction in live venues, then would you redress that, and equally: to the Musicians' Union if, unlike your worst fears, it works rather well and means that live music can grow and take its rightful place in the entertainment in this country will you say we were wrong?

KH: Right, yes, can I answer first?

RE: Yeah, go ahead

KH: Yes, absolutely, I give an undertaking to everybody listening to this now, to Hamish and everyone else, that if [cough] for whatever reason - sorry about this cough -

RE: No, worry not

KH: - if, for whatever reason, the effect is to reduce the opportunities for musicians to play, then we will review that legislation.

HB: Can I just come back, just to return to the example he gave about the karaoke machine, well, of course under this Bill, any premises will be able to install a powerful sound system coupled to a juke box. That's not licensable if it's incidental to eating or drinking and he can be blasted out of his chair by that juke box, no licence required under this Bill.

And local residents have redress if only local authorities would use it. Under existing noise legislation they can slap a £20,000 noise abatement notice, they can even serve an anticipatory noise abatement notice if they think a nuisance is likely to occur.

And I don't think local residents would think very highly local authorities who have spent out on under-cover licensing officers merely to count numbers of performers when they could be better used actually monitoring noise nuisance break-out. And I honestly don't think that a regime that could give rise to thousands of premises where having one musician is a criminal offence and yet you can have amplified broadcast entertainment, no problem, I don't think the general public will think that is a good idea, especially coupled with 24-hour opening.

RE: Finally, Mr Howells, I'll let you have the last word here

KH: Sorry, Robert. If I could say, this is a typical example of the googly-gook [laughter from RE/HB] - those absurdities - we're going to stop the two-in-a-bar rule, we're going to make sure that there isn't a limit in the way that Hamish has described and we're gonna free up those venues so that we can have proper bands, not limited to one or two people in a pub, that there can be a proper expression of all kind of music. We won't be able to do it without this legislation and I would only wish that the Musicians' Union would see that it's a real step forward, not a step backwards.

HB: Well, they've got to convince more than us, I believe.

RE: Well, what we've got is a two-step in two directions going on here. All I hope of course, is that we can keep music live using the old slogan of the Musicians' Union, and that live music can proliferate under the new licensing rules. I think, gentlemen, this is one that we'll be returning to at a later date. Thank you. Kim Howells and Hamish Birchall, thank you very much.

ENDS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:02 PM

39,224..................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:42 AM

Just passed 40,000 but the decline is very much as predicted above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:16 AM

ok- the online maybe slowing, but the hard ones are still shooting up!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,iains
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

I have just seen the thread and signed it. I am doubtful it will make much impression unless a way is found to demonstrate a)the absurdity of our elected MP's behaviour. b)the infringement of our human rights by curtailing our freedom of expression playing our traditional music.Perhaps we should form a folk religion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

Howells (as always) has yet to give any (much less any coherent) explanation of why a prior licence has to be given for unamplified live music.


And yes, as the bill stands, private parties are caught. CHeck the infamous Schedule 1.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

40,619.............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM

The Human Rights Committee findings in The Stage 16 January 2003.

http://www.thestage.co.uk/paper/0303/0102.shtml


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

42,160................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM

This week Got John Redwood (con) wokingham to sign EDM Hurrah!

He thinks that the Labour gov't is arrogant and out of touch!

I have that in writing!!!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 07:08 PM

42,596 and growing


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM

There are some interesting letters in Traditional Music Magazine on this subject.....extracts below.....

From The Times, November 27 2002

Implications of new Licensing Bill From Mr Howard Jones

Sir,

It is not only music in churches which is placed in jeopardy by the proposed Licensing Bill (report, November 23). The proposals will criminalise any musical performance in a public place without a performance licence. This will include carol singing, morris dance displays, and informal song and music sessions including pub sing?songs.

These are not commercial events. England's heritage of traditional music and song is in danger of being stamped out by this unnecessary legislation.

The licensing requirements have nothing to do with public safety ? no one has explained why a pub which is perfectly safe for people to sit in and talk suddenly becomes unsafe if they burst into song. Neither will it achieve its purported aim of public order ? one might think that a bar full of football fans has more potential for disorder than a few acoustic folk or jazz musicians, but a licence will not be required to show TV programmes. There is already legislation to deal with both public disorder and noise nuisance.

This legislation will do what the Puritans failed to do 350 years ago and stamp out informal music and dance in this country. Anyone who values our musical heritage and community participation in musical arts must protest against this Bill.

From The Times, November 27 2002

From Dr G. M. Leuty

Sir,

On Sunday mornings the choir sings during the service at our city centre church. The Department of Culture graciously concedes that no licence is needed for this ,,entertainment".

Sometimes on Saturday mornings the choir gives a "Coffee Break Concert" for passing shoppers, with a retiring collection for a local charity. The building, music and coffee are the same, but the congregation is smaller.

In future the retiring collection may have to be spent on a licence rather than charity. What good purpose is to be served by this?

From The Times, November 30 2002

More on next message


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Et
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 04:29 AM

More from Traditional Music Magazine

Intended purpose of Licensing Bill From the Under?Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, Kim Howells

Sir,

The Licensing Bill would not criminalise impromptu or spontaneous singing (letters, November 27). What it would do is ensure that, where music and dancing are to be a regular feature at a venue, local residents would have the opportunity to air their concerns with the local licensing authority before a decision was made.

The Bill would improve the opportunities for musicians to perform in public venues. The Government does not accept that certain types of music, for example acoustic folk music, are never noisy and should therefore be excluded from the new licensing regime.

The licensing authority would have the power to impose necessary and proportionate conditions in order to protect residents and customers.

The Licensing Bill would allow people to have a good night out and enjoy themselves, while making sure that those that wish to stay in for a peaceful evening can do so.

Fees for licences will be set centrally by the Secretary of State under secondary legislation, and it would be open to her, where appropriate, to set fees at a reduced level for charities and religious groups or indeed to decide that they should be waived.

Some churches fear that disproportionate and costly conditions may be attached to licences ' However, under the Bill all licensing authorities would be required to have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State. And it is intended that this will make clear that it would be wholly inappropriate to attach disproportionate conditions to licences affecting churches and other charitable institutions.

Sent to The Daily Mail, December 2 2002

From Bryan Chalker

Dear Editor,

1 am pleased that Eric Spencer, in his 'Swansong for the pub singalong' letter (December 2nd), has highlighted the serious threat, to live acoustic music in England as the direct result of more meddling by this sinister and increasingly repressive Government.

Traditional Music Maker magazine, of which 1 am Associate Editor, has been waging war on this draconian music tax for a considerable time. It is interesting to note that the Government's justification for the increase in regulation of live musicians is that 'one musician with modern amplification can make more noise than three without'. This has been the case for decades, of course, and was even true at the time the Public Entertainment Licence (PEL) exemption was introduced in 1961. The question is: how big a noise problem are live gigs? Answer: they barely feature in the noise complaint statistics. Over 80% of noise complaints are caused by noisy people in the streets. Noisy machinery or loud recorded music accounts for the remaining percentage. Abolishing the two in a bar 'rule' will have no effect on people outside premises. This Government is making musicians the scapegoat for a much larger problem that has nothing to do with live music!

If the mad mullahs in our midst really want to turn Britain into a fundamentalist Islamic state, where all forms of entertainment are outlawed on pain of death or mutilation, then Blair's intended fatwah on live music here will have kick?started their cause. Be warned ? the

Music Police are on the march and coming to a pub near you!

Sent to The Times, December 3 2002

From Cheryl Jones

Sir,

Kim Howells is absolutely right (30.11.2002). The scourge of unamplified folk music must be driven from these shores! Why, only the other night 1 was sitting in a pub when two men started to play guitars and sing "All Around My Hat".

The noise levels were phenomenal! It silenced the chanting football crowd in the pub next door ? and the customers of the trendy bar three doors down could not hear the pounding beat of Eminem above the strumming of the plectrums and the nasal strains of the folk singers.

All those who heard were in fear of being assaulted by a Morris Man or someone brandishing a mouth organ in a threatening manner.

The present laws on nuisance are clearly insufficient to deal with this danger to British civilisation. As Kim Howells has said, one amplified musician can make as much noise as three unamplified musicians. If the threat of three unamplified singers is removed then there will be no comparator for the amplified singer and therefore the amplified singer will not be able to make as much noise!

Of course we can trust local authorities to set reasonable terms and conditions for having unamplified music, such as bouncers to control the dangerous followers of folk singing. it would be wholly unreasonable to take a view that English folk music is a minority activity and that there are no recorded instances of folk music riots.

Of course it is right that local authorities do not have the same powers to set terms and conditions for recorded music or wide?screen televisions. Kim Howells says so and he is the Minister for Culture. If he considers three folk singers in a pub as his idea of hell, then it must be so and it is right and proper to take all steps possible to regulate and suppress them.

There being absolutely no nuisance or danger from football matches being shown in pubs or from the volume of recorded music flooding from trendy bars it is obviously not necessary to have any regulation of those activities.

Go for it Mr Howells. Who cares if you have no evidence of nuisance and plenty of evidence that the licensing of folk music could result in it dying? You, as the Minister of Culture, are not in slightest bit interested in ensuring a thread of musical history continues.

Not when you can replace it with wide?screen TV and pounding recorded music. Not when you personally can avoid the whole thing by sticking with the House of Commons bars, which are not regulated at all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:24 AM

Dr Howells will be online next week 20th January. details of how you can contact him can be found on the Kim Howells thread on the following link.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=55705&messages=22

The full and excellent Daily Telegraph 18th January article can also be found there (this thread is a bit big already) and also on the following direct link.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2003/01/18/bmbill18.xml&sSheet=/arts/2003/01/18/ixartleft.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

43,086...................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:00 PM

What is proposed:-

On Thursday 30th January 2003 at Fleetwood Lancashire England (just up the coast from Blackpool and home of the Fylde Folk Festival) The BBC Blue Bus is coming to the Steamer Hotel - the Blue bus is a community interest and IT equipped bus that visit various locations during the week, interviews local people, explains IT and allows access to the internet etc via 6 onboard computers - at 4.05 pm there is a 25 minute program transmitted from the bus to Radio Lancashire listeners.

John Bond and myself will be at the steamer from early morning through the day, we will take our musical instruments (but don't let that put you off!), the Petition for people to sign and details of how to sign online (hopefully via The Blue Bus) and details of EDM 331 and how to contact MPs etc......

It would be great if as many people as possible could come along, bring instruments (and as long as the Landlord OKs it) have a play and sing..... maybe get interviewed? Help pass the word and explain the situation to members of the unaware public.

I know it's a working day for most of you - and many will be restricted by travel - but pass on the message to anyone you think might be interested and would like to come along - The Steamer is right next to the Market (which is open) so hopefully there should be a few people about having a look at the Blue Bus.........

There has also been talk of a "phone-in" on radio Lancashire re. new proposals

UK Chat Board Infomation Group

Join above group at:

Join UKPEL and have your say


Pete - aka The Barman


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:03 PM

44,448..................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:55 AM

The number now stands at 44,665.

I couldn't get on on Friday afternoon but after 9 weekdays of predictable decline, about 200 per day, the figure from Thursday lunchtime to Friday lunchtime rose by 486. All bets are now off, as we seem to have tapped a new population.

I think it ought to reach 50,000 now but I'll be able to assess the situation a bit better at 2:00 gmt when I'll get a new week-on-week figure.

:-)
Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:23 AM

I would also have posted my latest fax to Barbara Follett MP on Friday, so I'll do it now. I think it's worth following up the "standard" replies (as I got) with rather more specific letters putting your own particular query. This is what I've done ... it should be harder to ignore.

---------------START Fax---------------
To: Ms Barbara Follett
MP for Stevenage
House Of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Friday 17 January 2003

Dear Barbara Follett

Thank you for your letter of 8th January, containing a reply from Kim Howells. I'm particularly grateful for the copy of the House of Commons Briefing which you sent me, as it contains some useful information about the bill as it relates to live music in pubs, something about which I have a particular interest.

Unfortunately, I must apologise that I seem to have put my problem to you rather badly in my original fax since nothing in your letter or in Kim Howells' reply really addresses the point I had hoped you might be able to help with.

As I said in my original fax, I an writing on behalf of The Stevenage Sword Dancers. We are a traditional dance group, performing a rapper sword dance inside about 5 pubs every other Friday night during the winter months and we take a collection to cover a small part of our expenses (purchase of swords etc, though not our travelling expenses etc.). We select pubs on the basis of various criteria including the likely audience, dancing space available etc. and need to do this relatively near to the time that we are actually dancing. In practice, this is usually about a week in advance though it might be stretched to two weeks or so. An individual dance takes about 5-10 minutes and we then move on to the next pub, usually taking a drink before we go.

I'm concerned that, according to my reading of the bill, we would have to ensure that an appropriate license was acquired to cover our dancing by every pub we dance in. Failure to ensure this would lead to a penalty amounting to a fine of up to £20,000 and a possible 6 month prison sentence on our part. Because we only appear in any individual pub on an irregular basis, usually at most once a year, it seems unlikely that a landlord - who might not even have known we were coming until a week or so before - would have previously sought the relevant license.

As the bill is currently worded, it would seem that we would be unable, practically, to dance without breaking the law and would most probably have to disband after almost 30 years.

I'm sure the bill is not intended to have this effect, but - so far as I can tell - if it remains unchanged then not only us, but most performing folk dancers (e.g. Morris Dancers) would be affected as well as other groups working in the same way such as mummers, carol singers etc.

If my interpretation of the bill is incorrect, would you please explain where I have gone wrong, as I wouldn't want to feel that I have unneccesarily objected to a perfectly innocent piece of legislation. Otherwise, I hope you might be able to intervene to bring this point to the attention of the minister as it could end up as a complete disaster for a number of traditional activities across the country. In fact, this bill might well achieve, quite accidentally, what Cromwell's puritans failed to achieve 350 years ago.

Thank you for your help
Ian Chandler
The Stevenage Sword Dancers

53ee372eb0548da7ed32b9ba03d14111 (Signed with an electronic signature in accordance with subsection 7(3) of the Electronic Communications Act 2000)
----------------END Fax----------------


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:48 AM

IanC,

'We are a traditional dance group, performing a rapper sword dance'

You might make sure that the MP for Stevenage fully understands what you mean by the term 'rapper'- not to be confused with the 'mainstream' usage of the term as describing the highly commercialised & amplified 'banging & shouting' cultural expression of some performers on the pop music scene.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:54 AM

MrH. Learn to suck eggs yourself? Ialready explained that in the first letter. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:47 AM

Mr H has a point, though, Ian. It might be worth asking Kim Howells a question about licencing rapper sword dancing in the online session. We could watch him complain about people taking sharpened swords into a pub and waving them about to rap music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:26 AM

Oh dear The Fax online facility is down:

James, one of our volunteers, has got the builders in because his ceiling's fallen down.
Our fax-engine normally runs from his spare room.
You can see the problem :-)
You might want to write to your MP (yes with pen and paper and everything!) to ask them why Parliament doesn't provide something like this themselves, rather than relying on a group of volunteers to do it for them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:27 AM

45,427...............

MPs names Emails etc are here...http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/alms.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM

I was doing a bit of research on Friday and discovered that the original licensing legislation is based on a report by The Better Regulation Task Force. The complete report is HERE as a PDF file.

What's interesting is the attitude of the task force's report (as opposed to the bill) about regulation of small-scale events.

In particular, the following sections may be of interest.

3.1 Purpose of Regulation (para 2, bottom half of page 6)
says...
many of these objectives can also be and are being achieved by other means, e.g. ... public nuisance law, food and health and safety law.

3.2 Structure of the Regulatory Framework

Licensing of Community Premises(bottom of Page 9)
states ...
Licensing authorities must not apply conditions which are disproportionate and impractical ... Regard should be paid to the fact that community activities mat be run by volunteers with limitied time and resources. There is an opportunity here to consider whether licensing authorities need to be involved at all if suitable notification is given for an even to both police and local authority.

3.3 Licensing Conditions
Public Entertainment Licensing (bottom of page 14)
says...
Charges made for Public Entertainment Licenses are another area in which inconsistencies were drawn to our attention. The cost of licenses is not currently regulated and varies from one part of the country to another. There does not appear to be any paricular logic to the current system of charging with fees varying from less than £100 to tens of thousands of pounds for the same size premises. Again, there is urgent need for standardisation.


4. The Next Steps (bottom of page 22)
states...
We also consider that in some cases effective non-statutory solutions could completely remove the need for tighter legislative contols in the future

Annex B - Principles of Good Regulation
Targetting (lower half of page 25)
says...
The approach taken is aimed at the problem and not scatter-gun or universal
and...
Regulations are reviewed from time to time to test whether they are still necessary and effective. If not, they should be modified or eliminated.

Proportionality (top of pge 26)
says...
Alternatives to regulation are fully considered
and...
The impact on those affected by the licensing regulation is identified, establishing the right balance between risk and cost; no needless demands on those being regulated - think small first.
and...
Any enforcement action (i.e. inspection, sanctions etc.) is in proportion to the seriousness of the offence.

Hope this might be useful.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM

Playing music of any sort at unscheduled events anywhere is a serious problem - how do you notify local authorities up and down the country - and what do they licence - eg playing pipes as I do at historical re-encatments, Stately Homes, etc. I don't unfortunately, own Rockingham Castle or Burton Agnes Hall, but if I did I wander the grounds and surrounds. Is this "premises"?. Its certainly a "place" under the Act. Is it entertainment - playing Leicestershire Smallpipes I could argue certainly not but the Bill says it is.

If the petition reached 100,000 would they listen? I fear not and the only public reaction will be if Jobsworth of the music police picks on the wrong organisation - eg the police band in a local bandstand or the Salvation Army at the corner of the Street.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,More Lies
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM

From Hamish Birtchell of MU
With Howells' allegation that the MU is leading objectors to the Licensing Bill in a 'pernicious lying campaign' ringing in everyone's ears, it is as well to bear in mind that on 17 July 2002 the minister gave an undertaking, during his broadcast interview with Mike Harding on BBC R2, that pub folk sessions would not be licensable 'if no money changes hands':

MH: Roger Gall has emailed us to say, and I quote, "When you introduce this new licensing system, if pubs don't have an entertainment licence, will sessions and singarounds be banned?"
KH: Yes, I suppose they would be. The landlord would need to get an entertainments licence to cover himself or herself .
MH: But this is not for gain, is it, you were talking about .
KH: Oh, I see, I am sorry, I'm sorry, I thought that you meant it would be professional musicians being paid.
MH: No, just sessions and singarounds, people just playing for their own fun.
KH: No, they certainly wouldn't and I'm very keen that we should make sure that that facility is there. There shouldn't be a problem. As long as money isn't changing hands, then there's no reason why they should have to have a licence...

Of course, now that the Bill has been published, it is clear that virtually all public performances are licensable, whether or not any money changes hands at all. In Colin Randall's Daily Telegraph piece (Sat 18 Jan), this is confirmed:

" Howells accepts that both the New Star singalongs, and the Dungworth carols, would be caught by the new legislation. As regular events, both sessions would have to be licensed."

The New Star, a pub in Weymouth, recently lost its regular informal folk session because the council enforced existing PEL legislation (the illegal session had been ignored for five years previously). As many of you already know, the British Institute of Innkeepers publishes guidance warning that 'encouraging community-style singing' is licensable. If the Licensing Bill is enacted without amendment, this guidance would continue to apply.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM

46,022......................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:02 PM

I put Hamish's point from the post above (GUEST, More Lies) as one of the questions in the Kim Howells Guardian debate. Oddly enough, he didn't get round to answering it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM

46,571

I added a link to the petition on an international discussion list on singing, noting that it was for those in England and Wales. I hope it helped.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM

Over 500 signatures added in about 10 hours. Great.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM

Thank you Alice, we will help you save Montana in return one day.

47,129......................

Please circulate to following

Billy Bragg is speaking on the subject tonight on the Sky News Channel at 8 pm.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 09:41 AM

It looks like the decline of the previous 2 weeks has been pretty thoroughly reversed. the 24 hour figure from Monday to Tuesday lunchtime increased by over 200 and is the highest number of signatures since Wednesday 8th January. 50,00 signatures are now essentially guaranteed

Even if the decline resumed tomorrow at its previous rate, we would be heading for approximately 58,000 signatures so I'd suggest that 60,000 is a perfectly reasonable expectation.

The number currently stands at 47,370.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

47,621

If you go to the signature page, wait a minute or less and hit "reload" you can watch the numbers increase. They are adding really quickly now.

Click here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM

* BAD NEWS *

The number have just gone completely zonk. It seems to be down to 29,809 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll try and contact the administrators.

:-(


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,bagpuss
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM

I think they are making the numbers up - back up to over 36000 now...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

Looks like they have sorted the jinx - back up to 47,673 now


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM

its gone back right again: 47675 Total Signatures!!

Hip, Hip,.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

Hooray!


47,907...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

If you look at the home page to www.PetitionOnline.com, you see that the the PEL petition has moved to the top of the most active. It has been in the top ten, but the signatures are being added quickly and the tally page is going a little bonkers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:40 PM

someone told me this am that only the online signatures would be counted but not the hardcopy ones. what's true?

i'll be sending all mine to graham dixon- so does he have to put them all online?

ps- i've got 400+ up to now hardcopy [to be sent in by 15th March]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM

Just checked and it's 48331 Total Signatures right now - so at this rate should be over the 50,000 by the time of the "Silent Demo" planned for Monday 27th.

I still think that a separate petition specifically for people outside the UK would make a lot of sense, directly addressing the tourism issue. (Sort of "We won't be going to England to spend our tourist dollars until you stop doing this to the music")

But I think worrying about overseas signatures devaluing the petition isn't worth worrying about. It's not like Mickey Mouse signatures. If anything overseas signatories add more weight to the petition - but they'd add more weight to the campaign in a separate petition. These apparatchiks are more worried about losing tourists than they are about upsetting voters. Tourists have somewhere else to go, voters, they tend to assume, haven't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:57 PM

And that 48331 Total Signatures is just online ones - it doesn't include the people in folk clubs and pubs and so forth who have signed the hard copy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM

I can see no reason why "overseas" votes won't be counted - the e-petition is about people believing a situation to be unfair, and that it will affect their lives in some way - it is not an official vote where one would have to be on the electoral roll.... likewise children's votes should also be taken into consideration.

The only shame as far I as can see are those who have left "Silly" comments on the petition........

Let's hope we can raise a few more on the 31st at Fleetwood!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:45 AM

I get the impression that others of you can see the names of the signatories. Is that so, 'cos I can't -- just the numbers, and if I click on any of the numbers I just get the numbers page again. Am I doing something wrong?

BJ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM

Bullfrog, try http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar & u should see numbers & names!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

ps- you have to clik on the numbers to see the names!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM

Nope, still just numbers, if I click on the numbers I just get the numbers page again! Could it be a browser thing? I'm using Internet Explorer.

BJ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:07 AM

after you clik the numbers, you do get what appears to be the same page again, but scroll down a bit & you should see the names.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:08 AM

You click on "Sign" under the petition, and that comes up with the options: View Current Signatures   - Sign the Petition. Click on the former and up comes the numbers. Ay least that;s how it wortks with me on Internet Explorer.

And have a look at this "exemptions" thread, where I've just posted a suggestion for something that could sort it out and get Kim Howells out of the emvbarassing corner into whiuch he has painted himself.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

49,167


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM

50,003 signatures!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:38 PM

Just over a month ago we were excited when it reached 1,000!

This reflects great effort from everyone and great credit on everyone, except our Government who are still not listening.

See Government v MU and lawyers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:43 PM

50012 Total Signatures online + another 30 hardcopy from Conwy/North Wales mini folk w/end!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:52 PM

Over the 50,000 now!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:49 AM

This link will take you to the MU's and the lawyers position and the DCMS reply/spin.



Please circulate this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM

I know this is the petition line but .....

I'm not being despondent but what more can we do!

The Demo sadly is basically flawed now as Hans Blix (not sure on spelling)is reporting back to the UN that day and George Bush will be pushing for us to support him in a war bid! The international posturing has already begun.

SO - Who is going to be interested in a group of (as the public know us) tax fiddling musicians who play in pubs and wierdo folkies who are not part of the real world and include Morris Dancers? The whole of this is overshadowed by the middle east primarily the gulf situation, which do I agree is very important.

Subsequent to this Kim Howells can get away with almost defamatory comments about the MU and others of us, and seems quite happy to suggest that lawyers specialised in the field (who perhaps stand to make a lot of money out of the badly formatted bill) are misinterpreting it. I think it is good to have a controversial culture minister but I would feel happier if he understood what he was talking about, he does seem to be developing the knack of inserting large foot in to mouth on a regular basis.

The Magistrates are not happy about moving the control of liquor licencing to the LAs and see many problems arising. The Govt is not listening to them either - To busy in the middle east.

I 'hope and pray' for a good meet on 27th - I will be there if I can, but currently can't, after keeping the date free for weeks! So back to line two - Where can we go form here - how can we interest the public and MPs in a piece of badly drafted legislation which is far less headline grabbing than XX thousand troops from UK and America being sent out to the middle east with no socks!!!

BTW on a lighter note NO I don't hold with us putting a topless model on the front of the Sun saying I can't take my clothes off for you anymore - even though it might work :-)

I've been really boring and bad and put this on the demo thread too, I think we have got to start thinking hard or we will loose!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:43 AM

True enough it's not too likely that Monday's demo will get much attention - fiddling while Baghdad burns. But it's a foundation for the next step.

And 50,000 online signature, though impressive enough, isn't going to make them turn and run - but again it's going to lead on to very much higher numbers of people signing at festivals all over the place, and becoming aware of the situation and angry about it,in a way that would have seemed impossible a few months ago.

The chances are that the Act is going to go ahead without the simple amendments that could turn not from a clamp down on music to what it was claimed to be, "an explosion of liberty". But that just means that playing all kinds of unlicensed music in public becomes recognised as a kind of civil disobedience, a way of protesting against the government, and there is going to be as need for a lot of that for the foreseeable future, given such things as the push to war, and the hammering students and other things as well.

In a way this could potentially put people's music back where it belongs, at the heart of things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 AM

Please dont dispair quite yet.

From The Times leader 21 Jan 2003 - war or no war if this influential opinion can be expressed, people will have to listen. See The thread linked to above for the full thing and another Times article on the same subject.

Mr Howells argues that amplification can allow a single musician with an electric guitar to put on a rowdier show than a string quartet and so he is only acting equitably.

But his is the equity of the wet blanket. And an illogical wet blanket at that. For the Licensing Bill will not restrict the ability of pubs to show television, amplified by powerful speakers, which could produce a great deal more noise than any pair of balladeers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

51,830
Wow, I'm amazed at how quickly now the signatures are being added.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:57 PM

The DCMS just gets better and better, doesn't it?
"If you ask if a venue has a licence and you are misled you haven't commited an offence"
So obviously if you're told no you don't play....but if you don't ask then will you be charged additionally with negligence? (Mind you, in my case either 'playing an instrument without due care and attention' or 'carrying an offensive instrument' could well be justified.)

Terry Redmond 01/22/03 11:17:31 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:00 PM

Yes, but according to you, YOU risk being charged of "going equipped" in posession of your particular voice...

Hey, if providing facilities (eg a piano) is going to be licensable, where does that leave people known to sing or dance? They carry the facilities with them...

It strikes me that the stark difference between the Scottish approach and the English/Welsh model is that in Scotland there is a presumption of permission to make music, unless told otherwise. In England and Wales the presumption will be that you must have a licence except in certain circumstances. Glass half full, glass half empty.

Molly Barrett
01/23/03 12:50:38 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM

A phone call to our local Town hall and a chat to our very protective licensing officer revealed some interesting comments......

1) In Blackpool at present there are 200 pel licenses held for hotels pubs clubs Tower, church halls etc.....

2) They expect this to increase to 4,000 after the new proposals are excepted - ummmm sound like a lot of addition revenue - no wonder my MP is slow in signing EDM 331???

3) Morris Dancing is and will remain illegal without a licence both in pub carparks and on the street

4) However if you can class it as a sport or a competition (you could offer a 10p prize for the best dancer) - that would be OK

5) When asked if Football would be OK in the streets then? - replied - I didn't say that....   (other bylaws cover this)

6) Temporary Licenses are very dear (but no price could he quoted)

There was some more conversation - but only relevant to some local issues..

7) Parting Comment from licensing officer - I have my officers out there checking!

NB. I did say comments not Facts - like most government departments, MPs et al - they appear to change their minds all too often and interpret the law to their own ends.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM

Some numerology again.

There is again no sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day varying between about 1,400 and 2,000 (except at weekends, where the numbers are rather lower). This week, it has not been below 1,700 and it has increased for the past two days so that today the daily rate was around 2,000 (I measure lunchtime to lunchtime).

A week-to-week figure for each day (for example Monday to Monday, Tuesday to Tuesday etc.) gives a good idea of the average expectation if there is no decline but can't pick up likely declines. The figure varies between 10,000 and 13,500 per week since I have been keeping figures.

On the "worst case" assumption that the signatures declined linearly at 200 a day from now on, then we could expect 62,000 signatures by the end of the week after next or shortly thereafter. This would probably allow us to confidently predict a minimum of about 64,000 to 65,000 so long as there wasn't a sudden and rapid decline.

Since there is no sign of a decline at present, we can also predict that if there was no further decline in the signature rate over the next 2 weeks we would be looking at around 75,000. Whether it will eventually get to this level (or even how much further it might go) is basically speculation as it's not possible to make a final prediction until a decline is under way.

The number currently stands at 53,001.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

SH*T

The whole thing is totally and uterly phenomenal!

The only people who seem remotely happy with the law are the LAs and the MPs (apart from teh EDM guys!

I'm still trying to figure out where to go next.

It all gets short Shrift - like overlooked on Toady in Patliament - All we get these days is the was to was and then the WAR.

I Might try Terry Wogan! - any port in a Storm - He released the Floral Dance one!!!

I hope he doesn't read this.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:24 AM

Signed it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM

Has anyone tried getting the subject on Richard & Judy or the popular phone-in radio shows?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:57 PM

This is an e-mail I sent to Lawyers/Performance Group. Speaking to non musicians they are taken aback about this. Universally they think the Government is insane.   We ought to get to a wider audience. I agree with suggestions about Richard and Judy and Co but I wrote to the Culture Section of the Times and got no where. I think the xxx will hit the fan only when the first fiddle player is prosecuted for fiddling without a licence.   The MU is considering withdrawing its 80 year old affiliation with labour! Would a message about 50,000 plus lost votes help? For the first time in my life I wish the Tories would come back to life and form a proper opposition. Things are getting that bad!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks you for e-mail. I was particularly interested in the bit about Licensing open air events. I work in a Magistrates' Court and know a bit about Licensing. I have had meetings with the local city council officer who has the responsibility for this passed to him, or will have.

My point to him is this - I play mediaeval type instruments at historical re-enactments up and down the country. Maybe the society I belong to will have to seek notice permissions but

1. if you are not a liquor licence holder you can only have 5.....per annum
2. with an audience of less than 500 people......
3. for 72 hours then a break.
4. for a fee of about £20
5. by notifying the appropriate local authority and police (you have to find them first)

The Licensing Officer says.....

How an earth can a local authority keep national records of this. If x applies in one authorities area for notice permission, in 10 days is the authority supposed to search the database of every other authority in the country to see if x has applied 5 times before (and remember these events can be all over the place). And suppose the Salvation Army gives notice and sends £20 that it intends to play Carols and raise funds in a pedestrian street (as they do). How big is the audience. How wide is the "premise" or place as the act defines it. Who counts. Or as the local authority says, who cares?   As we contemplate war in Iraq, Railways that don't work, failing hospitals etc, the Government "de regulates" like this? His comment - are they mad or am I?

I am seeing my local MP David Davies (Deputy Shadow Prime Minister) on this and other subjects on licensing music Saturday week. I have written to Tony Blair trying to get to him as he pretends he is a musician, but diverted to DCMS, written to Education Ministers ...say responsibility of DCMS, don't care about opportunities for music students, to a Local MP John Prescott, no reply, too busy worrying about wife's hair do etc.

Strange world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM

One almost feels sorry for the poor Licensing Officers - well almost.

53,625...............

Would you please have a look at the following thread? Some help for a current local situation will be useful for the wider issue and be most appreciated....Weymouth Folk Festival


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:50 AM

Have read the Weymouth Situation. The so called de-regulation bill will make matters far worse. I have sought legal opinion on the position of buskers also. This is my view but will take this up further when had that advice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------On this subject I wonder if I have stumbled upon an issue that may cause even Howells some concern.

It is that of Buskers and the Act.

He says that whilst some buskers are unpleasant (presumably the music) others brighten up dark corners of our land.

How could they operate in his regime?   He acknowledges for the first time that regulation covers open air performances. Buskers play to the public for money in the open air. So they need a licence. But they cannot have a premise license because although premise means place (ie an apple means an orange!) they do not operate from one place. They could hardly have a licence for the whole of Birmingham for example.   So they need an event notice? But they can only have 5 each per annum, and how, if they play in a pedestrian street as most do, do they limit the "audience" to 500. How wide is their catchment area?   Howells cheerfully talks about choirs getting the local railway station to apply for an event licence (did I read this in Network Rails strategic plan?). But will an empty shop owner make such an application for a busker. Or will the owner of a pedestrian place apply (the local authority for example applying to itself?)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the act itself as drafted will criminalise buskers everywhere. Jails are going to become even fuller, if more pleasant places to be!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I live not far from York. York City has some of the best buskers in the land. Many are young music students supplementing their grant or reducing student loans by playing Bach in Stonegate - to the obvious delight of the thousands of tourist. They will start there careers I fear with criminal convictions if this bill goes through.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if you agree with my interpretation? I will put this to Howells directly but I think he regards me with contempt. Is this not the sort of issue the gutter press (operating in the same place as Buskers) would take up.   I would be happy to draft an article for them!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM

The interpretation looks fine to me, if not welcome, it is hardly unexpected. The following may help in any letters on the subject, as it is always good to have a concrete proposal to examine. As for comtempt from Dr Howells, look at it as being in good company....

Busking on the London Underground

I will try and post, in the Weymouth Festival thread, the Council solicitor's dismissal of the 1899 case law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM

54,171


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Dr Howells in The Stage 23 Jan 2003http://www.thestage.co.uk/paper/0304/0302.shtml


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM

54689 Total Signatures + hardcopy!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:09 PM

If you need to sum up why this is a 'Silly Bill', this is a good example.

The Bill is claimed to be a deregulatory reform. Under it, the current exemption from the licensing requirement for two people and a piano in a pub, is to be replaced by the piano itself being licensable!!!

It will be OK if the piano is for display, locked or disabled, but if a customer should actually play it, the premises will be considered to be automatically unsafe and the licensee subject to a maximum fine of £20,ooo or six months in prison. Possibly the customer too, if they did not take steps to establish if the premises held the required licence.

The floor of any place anywhere will also be licensable, if this is considered by local council officers to be a 'dance floor'.........Perhaps we should take to dancing on the ceiling?

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar16.shtml Pub fined for permitting 'dancing'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM

55,559.................

I have this horrible feeling that the opposition in the Lords, know exactly how unworkable this Bill will be inpractice and for reasons of their own, they are allowing it to be inflicted on us.

There are some intelligent people in the Lords, as many have made some pretty good points about the Bill, but this is the only explanation I can see why they are prepared to give it any respectability at all..............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 09:30 PM

I will put this to Howells directly but I think he regards me with contempt

I think he regards all of us with contempt ET.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:21 AM

56,687


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM

57,447..................So the figures in the following Guardian article are out of date already.

No more impromptu gigs, open-mike nights or even singalongs. Can live music survive the new licensing bill, asks Tim Cumming

Tuesday January 28, 2003
The Guardian


Until recently, Lee Lindsay ran a singer-songwriters' night in the West End as a members' club, exempting her from the need for a public entertainment licence. She did this on Westminster Council's advice - but that didn't stop undercover council officers attending a gig without registering in advance (thereby breaking club membership rules) and prosecuting Lindsay on the grounds that not only were more than two musicians playing, but that "one woman danced for a short time".

That is not an isolated incident. "Over the past decade, council after council has been raiding and closing down clubs on the back of the two-in-a-bar rule," says folk star Eliza Carthy. "It has decimated the folk scene, and it's dangerous for jazz, for singer-songwriters and for open-mike nights. Why are they making it worse?"

The "they" in question is the government, which in an attempt to make matters better with its latest licensing bill has succeeded in making them worse. The bill is potentially fatal to the future of live entertainment of all kinds. Described as "a central plank in the government's drive to tackle anti-social behaviour", the licensing bill was expected to streamline the archaic Public Entertainments Licence regime and end the two-in-a-bar rule, which permits no more than two musicians to perform without a licence, and which culture minister Kim Howells labelled "outdated and pointless".

Instead of liberalising the law, the government intends to license all live entertainment with what is essentially a none-in-the-bar rule. That is the opposite of what many hoped for, and at odds with the law in Scotland, which permits live music without a licence if it is secondary to the main business of the premises.

Overnight, live music "in any place" will be illegal unless a licence or temporary entertainment notice from local authorities is obtained, with all its attendant costs and red tape. This means everything from Christmas festivities to impromptu music sessions in small, out-of-the-way pubs will be liable to penalties of up to £20,000 and six months' imprisonment. The only proposed exemptions are for the corporate leisure industry - for whom satellite TV pubs bring significant revenue - and churches, although non-religious church events would also require a licence.

Carthy sees the bill as an attack on live music of all kinds by a government that has no realistic understanding of what its implications are. "Kim Howells doesn't understand how many years it has taken for someone like me to be able to make a living out of what I do. I started by busking and singing at local folk clubs, and the pub I started in did not have a licence," she says.

Musicians' Union advisor Hamish Birchall believes that while the law as it stands is bad, the proposed new bill will be much more destructive. He points out that the vast majority of busts are not the result of public complaints, but of covert operations by council officers - as in Lindsay's case.

Singer and activist Billy Bragg also feels that the future will be worse, especially for rural communities where local events "help newcomers like me to be part of the community. It's where we find a common ground, in the village hall, church or school hall. Now, with the new law, we will be at the mercy of sympathetic landlords, and in rural areas landlords are often less sympathetic."

Carthy adds: "The Joint Committee on Human Rights read the bill, and it contravenes Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. You can't do it. I'd love to sit with Dr Howells and a lawyer, and tell him what is endangered by this bill. It's the English tradition, the British tradition. These are things he should not endanger if he is culture minister."

Bragg agrees: "We want licensing in favour of performers rather than puritans, based not on the world-view from Westminster but from our view in the real world. Why should we have this Orwellian Ministry of Fun telling us what fun we can have and when we can have it?"

Howells has indicated that Home Office guidelines to councils will prevent a draconian insistence on the law, but Carthy disagrees. "Councils will say, 'We have to read the letter of the law,' and a lawyer will be brought in and say, 'This cannot continue without a licence.' Howells is inordinately naive if he thinks that won't happen."

And it will happen, she says, across the board. "Under the new law, you have to pay up to £150 for yearly inspections, and for a small club that's a lot of money. If the folk club is the sole reason the landlord would have to undergo these inspections, then maybe he won't bother having the licence. With something like folk, it's dangerous to put these obstacles in front of people."

Since the new year, a petition against the bill has been gaining over 2,000 names a day; now, with more than 54,000 signatories, the call for changes to the legislation is becoming louder. But will the government listen, and does it understand what the Musicians' Union, Equity, the Arts Council, the 233 MPs who signed an Early Day Motion to protect live music, and the House of Lords - which heavily criticised the bill during its second reading - are actually saying? After accusing the Musicians' Union of running a "pernicious lying campaign", Dr Howells, for one, does not seem to want to listen.

"Howells may hate folk music," says Carthy, "but that's irrelevant. Our culture minister should be making sure my culture survives. I pay my taxes and I want him to listen to me - and to my 53,999 mates."

· Music Licensing Reforms: How Will This Impact an Already Fragile Industry? is at the ICA, London SW1, on Thursday. Box office: 020-7930 3674. The online petition is at www.musiclovers.ukart.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

More enumeration ...

There is still no clear sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day varying between about 1,400 and 2,000 (except at weekends)... Today was 1,602 on my system (this is lower than any day last week, so there may be the first signs of a drop in the rate).

The latest week-to-week figure (Tuesday to Tuesday) is 10,740. Still over 10,000.

On the "worst case" assumption that the signatures declined linearly at 200 a day from now on, then we could expect about 65,000 signatures by the end of the week after next. This would probably allow us to confidently predict a minimum of coming up for 70,000 (unless there is a sudden and rapid decline).

Since there is no sign of a significant decline at present, we can also predict (speculate) that if there was no further decline in the signature rate over the next 2 weeks we would be looking at around 80,000 to 85,000 by that time.

The number currently stands at 58,333.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

Barbara Follett sent me a copy of the DCMS briefing, so I've sen her a reply that asks her about that (sorry but it's her own fault for sending it to me). She still hasn't been able to answer my questions about sword dancing (see above.

Here's the latest ...

Dear Barbara Follett

Thank you very much for your letter of 22nd January, containing the briefing from the DCMS. I'm afraid that this issue has turned me into a bit of an activist, so that I'd already read this. I have to say that, on the whole, it rather alarmed me.

Firstly, there's a general tendency in it to represent the two ends of the spectrum but not to give any guidance as to what happens in the middle of the road situation. Secondly it seems to contradict what the bill says in a number of ways. Finally, some of the things which it says are even more worrying than I had understood the bill to indicate.

As an example of the first two, the situation with regard to Carol Singers might explain what I mean. The briefing explains that impromptu singing from place to place would not be licensable. Though I've tried very hard, I can't see where the bill exempts this in any way. Where am I going wrong? Also, whilst it deals with the situation where a shopping precinct may have arranged for carol singing (this will apparently be licensable) it doesn't deal with the more numerically common situation where carol singers might be performing on a street without any particular arrangement or where they are moving from place to place but have previously advertised their route.

As an example of my increased worry after reading the briefing, I need only to refer to the situation regarding a pub piano. As the briefing says:

"2.8 An antique piano in a pub that was only provided for decorative effect would not give rise to the need for a license. And a license would not be required if the pub operator did not allow the public to play it. A license would only be required if it was used to entertain people at the premises or by people on the premises to entertain themselves."

In the enclosure to your original letter, Kim Howells said that this is a deregulatory bill. However, this seems to be a most incredible new increase in regulation. It appears to be saying that a piano would become licensable, as the provision of entertainment facilities, should anyone ever use it for a pub sing song. I really need to sudy the bill again as I didn't realise it was going this far.

As you know, my main concern in writing to you is that I don't altogether understand the effects of the bill on the activities of The Stevenage Sword Dancers, but I have set these down in my previous fax to you and don't want to duplicate them.

I'm sure you're still busy on our behalf sorting this out, so I'll just thank you again for your work and hope that you can help us resolve what is still a very worying issue for us.

With very best regards

Ian Chandler
The Stevenage Sword Dancers


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Et
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM

I think that all buskers are caught by this. Howells cheerfully talks about "providing the audience is not more than 499. How do you count out from a pavment? Who would have this job?

A busker tooperate regularly might have to give 5 event notices at £20 a time them move on a few yards. Not very profitable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM

I was pleased to see that the Guardian site gave the URL of the petition, and also of the Musicians Union. I suspect that this will mean a lot of new signatures from Guardian readers who will previously have had no idea about this.

Fortunately it didn't have the URL for this place. That's all we'd need.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

59,063.....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM

59106 Total Signatures + another 19+ from Wales session tonite!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

seems like most of uk believe what's going to happen & are reacting [not over-reacting!]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:07 AM

Another thought about Howells 499 audience at the shopping mall or railway station - is this 499 at any one time or does it include those coming and going.
Maybe there is a job for someone here- with a peaked cap and a clicker


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

60000. Roy Sear Blue Firs, Orchard Road BASINGSTOKE RG22 6NU


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM

Here are some good words for a song - not mine. Needs music


Dangerous men with concertinas,
Ladies who play the guitar;
The worst kind of brute is the child with a flute;
We know you for what you all are.

Dangerous men with concertinas,
What damage you do to our lives;
If you had more sense, you'd take your instruments
And exchange them for guns and for knives.

Do we want any more Edward Elgars?
The prospect just makes me turn pale;
The moment they start making music,
It's best just to throw 'em in gaol.

I know we don't do that to burglars,
But people who sing, play or dance?
Fine 'em a fortune and send 'em to prison;
Their kind don't deserve one more chance.

Dangerous men with concertinas
Take your vile trade out of here;
No more you'll sing, or play bellows and things;
There are old ladies living in fear

Of dangerous men with concertinas;
They'll not roam our streets any more;
We'll not be afraid that some note will be played;
And no one will sing; it's the law.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

goes to "Daring young man on the Flying Trapeze"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

Couldn't quite make it fit the Flying Trapeze.

But if you change the first line to "Dangerous men who play concertinas" than it goes pretty well with the tune used for the Chivalrous Shark.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:07 PM

Guest, who wrote the Dangerous Men With Concertinas lyrics?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM

This is the source of these excellent lyrics


Les Barker has written a cracking set of verses that a tunesmith might wish to use: Martin is already contributing to teh "Guide Cats for the Blind" CD project that Clive Lever is involved with and Clive is hoping to get Billy Bragg to record for teh project, but I attach the words anyway.

I have some e-mail addresses if you want to send me a message

ET


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

60708 Total Signatures of anti 'silly bill' protestors.

clearly a staggering 'over-reaction'!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

60926 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM

62,047...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:46 AM

What happened at the ICA last night?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:20 AM

I think The Guardian got this meeting at the ICA wrong............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

It wasn't in the ICA website - there was a talk scheduled about how to get on in the music business, so I suppose it might gave touched on the subject, or even been drifted to deal with this issue.

On the other hand the possibility that it was just the Guardian getting it wrong seems likely enough. (But the mistake doesn't reflect on that article, which was first rate.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

Full transcript of Howells on Radio 3 can be found on PEL Exemptions

62,662.....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM

63,062....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM

63615 Total Signatures!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:29 AM

63,801....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

64,110...................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM

Spoke to my MP Saturday. Senior conservative. Thinks Howells is basically an ok bloke but drafting bills by Treasury Counsel often has "unexpected consequences" - as did the two in a bar exemption from the Licensing Act 1961.

Thinking about it the present position is technically hopeless for sessions, but OK outdoors. Now its difficult outdoors.

If only the Bill said what Howells says. I wonder if he is a bit pee'd off with all this. The rest of his bill seems to cause him no grief. He used to reply to my e-mails but I fear he has set up more recent ones to auto delete!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

Well leaving the exemption in place in 1982 did have some logic. As it did recognise that the other regulation already covered small-scale entertainment. The problems came when cash-strapped councils insisted on the interpretation that the addition of one 'performer' to a duo automatically made the premises unsafe.

Which is why it is so important that the wording of this Bill does support the stated good intentions. No one is suggesting that the intention of the Bill is to damage music making, but the words of the Bill, as they stand, will enable this to happen.

But leaving the current exemptions in place, with the stated objectives of the Bill, has no logic whatsoever and makes a complete mockery of the stated objectives.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

64,882....................

The Government have today announced the expected exemption on church concerts. The full thing can be read on the following site.

PELs Exemptions


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM

65273 Total Signatures + oodles of hardcopies [sent my 1st 500 names today!]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:50 AM

A new group called 'Save Live Music!' has been established to campaign against the Government's proposed Licensing Bill. Join the discussion list to hear about or help plan future protests by sending a blank email to savelivemusic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Please forward this to anyone who might be interested.

For more information emailsavelivemusic@yahoo.co.uk or call 07810 192 905.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM

65,943...................

Don't forget the established Yahoo group


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM

Action for Music


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actionformusic/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:05 AM

66,397...................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

67,064........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM

Numbers games ...

There is now a clear sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day dropping from 1774 2 weeks ago through 1513 last Thursday to 832 today. The average drop seems to be about 100 a day (today's 832 was over 150 less than yesterday's 989 so it may be accelerating).

This is borne out by the week-by-week figures, which are 6161 for today, down 700 or so from yesterday's 6842. This was, in turn, down slightly less than 700 from Tuesday's 7505 which, in turn, was just less than 700 down from Monday's 8167.

On a linear interpolation, this would get us to just over 70,000. This may well be close to a "worst case" figure as, though the rate of decay is lower than previously predicted, the decay is also likely to be better than a linear assumption.

Unless something happens to boost the number of signatures in the near future, chances are that it won't progress beyond a maximum of about 75,000 whatever happens. Still pretty good!

The number currently stands at 67,559.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

For circulation

Culture Minister Kim Howells is to answer emailed questions about the Licensing Bill on Lamacq Live
BBC Radio 1, Monday 10 February, 8-12pm. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/features/licensingbill305.shtml

For ideas about questions to ask, see under Questions below. To avoid misunderstandings about the Musicians' Union position on the Bill, go to:
http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar07.shtml (More info under MU position below).

Some supporters of the Bill argue that increased licensing control is good for public safety. The Department for Culture says licensing allows for the prosecution of musicians who trail 'bare cables' through an audience - not mentioning that this is already dealt with by public safety legislation. See Health and Safety - bare cables below. Noise is also dealt with by separate legislation. This is comprehensively covered on the MU website at: http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar17.shtml and scroll down for the Noise heading.

On Thursday 20 February, the National Campaign for the Arts has organised a Licensing Bill Seminar at the Wigmore Hall, London, 2-4pm. Andrew Cunningham, the civil servant at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) who is responsible for the Bill, will be a speaker. To reserve a free place call Jackie Clayton on 020 7333 0375, or email jclayton@artscampaign.org.uk.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights which strongly criticised the Department for failing to provide adequate justification for increased licensing controls, is now considering the government's response. The Committee will publish its conclusions on Monday 10 February. The Committee's office can be contacted on 020 7219 2797.

Parliamentary Timetable
The Bill is still in the Lords. There are two more stages of Lords debate before it goes to the Commons: Report stage and 3rd reading. Report stage will begin on 24 February, and 3rd reading could be concluded as early as mid-March. The MU is working with the Lords in order to re-present amendments at Report stage.

Questions


Since the Bill exempts big screen broadcast entertainment (Schedule 1, para 8) that could be hooked up to a powerful sound system, why is it necessary to criminalise even small-scale public music-making unless licensed?
The government launched the Licensing Bill as a Bill to tackle anti-social behaviour. Why did the government reject the representation made by the Association of Chief Police Officers which argued against the broadcast entertainment exemption because televised sporting events '...attract large crowds and are quite frequently the source of disorder'?
The Minister has written that he 'does not accept that acoustic music is never noisy' to justify licensing unamplified performance. Can the Minister provide up to date statistics which show the number of noise complaints arising from live amplified music or live unamplified music? If so, are they publicly available?
The Bill contains an exemption (Schedule 1, para 7) for the playing of recorded music that is incidental to other activities that are not licensable entertainments or facilities. Does this mean a pub jukebox is exempt no matter how powerful the sound system, provided no-one organises any singing or dancing?
Can the Minister identify specific deficiencies in public safety, noise or crime and disorder legislation that would mean a performance by a string quartet in a hotel lobby, or a jazz trio in a bar, cannot be adequately regulated without licensing?
Since public safety and noise legislation is UK-wide, and in Scotland live music that is secondary to the main business of pubs and bars is automatically allowed during permitted hours, why can we not have this regime in England and Wales?
If under the new regime a pub obtained permission for a duo on Friday and Saturday night, does this mean it would have to apply to vary the new 'premises licence' in order to put on live music on another day of the week?
Clauses 134 and 137 of the Bill mean that musicians are open to criminal prosecution if they don't first check that premises hold the 'appropriate authorisation' for their performance. Why is this necessary?
The Bill defines premises as 'any place' (Clause 188). Will buskers always have to check with a local authority first if they want to busk in a public street or square, or indeed any open space?
If those places don't hold a 'premises licence' for live music, would the busker have to obtain a Temporary Event Permit?
Could the Minister confirm that only five such permits can be granted per year for any place?
If a pub provided a piano for public use, would this be illegal unless licensed?
I am sure you can think of many more.

The MU position
Nothing so far said by the Minister or published by the DCMS suggests the MU should alter its position concerning the potential scope of the Bill's definitions as worded. Clarifying amendments, reflecting the Minister's assurances, are required. Independent legal advice, and expert licensing lawyers support us. They agree, for example, contrary to the Minister's statements, that carol singers on front door steps, and private events where performers charge a fee are caught.

The MU has welcomed the government's proposal to cap licence fees and to set them centrally - where licensing is necessary. Specialist premises already licensed for public entertainment will benefit. Many do pay exorbitant annual fees under the present system. They could save considerably under the new proposals. It also makes sense to rationalise the disparate licensing regimes, although it is unfortunate in many ways that essential reform of public entertainment licensing should be pegged to deregulation of pub opening times. The Licensing Bill applies to regulated entertainment irrespective of whether alcohol is sold.

The MU also welcomes the government's announcement that means churches in London will enjoy the same entertainment licensing exemption that currently applies outside London, and that church halls and community premises in London will get the licence fee exemption that currently applies to these premises outside London.

The MU accepts that there is a case for licensing premises whose main business is music, or music and dancing. It may be easier to enforce certain measures at such premises (such as the provision of chill out rooms) through licensing conditions than through safety legislation - although experts argue about this. These premises may also have a far greater impact on residential amenity than a typical bar or restaurant, and the importance of public consultation is consequently greater.

The MU's prime concern is for over 100,000 smaller premises that will lose the long-standing licensing exemption for small-scale entertainment by one or two live performers. Many MU members rely on work in this sector, as solo or duos. Currently only 5% of 110,000 pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants etc in England and Wales hold annual public entertainment licences allowing more than two performers to work. There is also concern about the implications for private events. Where these are raising money for charity they become illegal unless licensed; this also applies where a charge is made for admission.

It is unlikely that obtaining the 'necessary authorisation' will be a simple matter of ticking a box. The Local Government Association has already indicated that it would like to have information such as a maximum number of performers, where in the premises they are to perform, and when. Even if licensees are prepared to jump through all the obligatory administrative and consultative hoops (police, fire service, environmental health dept, local residents, and finally the licensing committee), and even if the conditions are less costly than at present, if a permission is granted for, say, a duo on Friday evening that will be the limit of their live music permission. If they wish to host a trio, or to provide live music at any other time they will have to apply to vary their premises licence, going through the whole process all over again. This is clearly over-regulation. There is nothing like it in Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Finland, Denmark and France.

A thriving grass roots music sector cannot exist without flexibility, freedom for musicians to sit in, informality and an intimate music-making environment. The Licensing Bill seems almost deliberately designed to kill this off. It is a potential straitjacket for this kind of music-making which was, after all, how folk and jazz was born. As Mike Harding and others have already pointed out, the burgeoning folk scene of the 50s led to the pop explosion of the 60s and 70s.

Health and safety - bare cables
When considering public safety or noise issues in the context of the Licensing Bill don't forget that the exemption for broadcast entertainment (Sch 1, para 8) means that you could set up a bank of big screens and a large PA, invite people to bring their own beer, and provided the entertainment falls within the broadcast entertainment definition, this is not licensable under the Bill. In its recent statements justifying licensing controls on safety grounds, the DCMS has failed to mention the wide-ranging powers already available under health and safety legislation. These apply irrespective of licensing. The paragraph below is from the latest DCMS justification of the Bill which has been distributed to MPs and the wider public. Beneath it in blue are my comments.

"24.2 The penalties provided in the Licensing Bill are maximum penalties and, as with all offences, the courts would decide on the appropriate punishment depending on the facts of the case. Severe penalties might be appropriate in some cases, however rare, for instance where a musician put lives at risk by trailing bare cables through an audience."






Having bare cables trailing through an audience in, for example, a bar would be a health and safety offence in any case. The employer and the musician responsible could be prosecuted.



Under the Health and Safety at Work Etc Act 1974 (HSWA) the employer on site has a duty to create and maintain a safe system of work not only for employees but anybody else who might be affected. If the workplace is a pub, the employer is effectively responsible for the safety of members of the public as well. This undertaking would cover activities ranging from repairs to the provision of entertainment ('entertainment' or 'practice or presentation of the arts' are already defined as activities for which local authorities have a statutory duty to enforce the HSWA in workplaces).



Bare cables trailing through an audience, or trailing through a group of people milling about, could result from a number of plausible scenarios: musician with amplifiers, the use of an air compressor for a bouncy castle, a workman undertaking repairs. If injury or even death resulted from such bare cables, two prosecutions could be pursued: one against the employer and one against the musician or other person responsible for the equipment (as a self-employed person) under sections 2 and/or 3 of the HSWA. The employer, or self-employed contractor, are under the same duty to provide a 'safe system' for people who may be affected.



A prosecution brought under s2 or s3 of the HSWA carries a maximum £20,000 fine at a magistrates court. If the magistrates court considers that their powers are insufficient, for example where a fatality or serious injury has occurred, the prosecution goes to the Crown Court where there is there is no limit on the potential fine. A Bill currently going through Parliament (Health & Safety Offences) is seeking to include imprisonment as an additional sanction.



The duties imposed by the HSWA are widely publicised by the HSE with plenty of published guidance, both hard copy and online. Since 1974, public safety and noise legislation has applied UK-wide. The Scottish example demonstrates that where live music is secondary to the main business, and is confined to permitted hours, no additional controls are necessary.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:14 AM

The Licencing Bill (Report Stage) is due to be discussed Stage in the Lords on 24th February. The amendments being proposed can be found here.

(http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/021/amend/ldam021.htm)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

68,016..................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM

IanC,

while it may be true that the email petition contributions are appearing to slow down, i don't notice any evidence of this phenomenon on the hard copy petitions.

on the contrary, i'm finding that the frequency of contributions to these are constantly increasing, & furthermore i'm gaining signatures now from a much wider audience- not just from folkies- but also from 'joe publics' in other areas of life.

in addition to distributing the petition, i'm also raising awareness through distribution of 'Warning- Your Music is in Danger!' flyers & other info. material.

there's still an enormous number of the population who don't have access to computers or emails, so my humble efforts are really just the tip of the iceberg on the procurement of support from this resource.

my main message & conclusion here is- Everyon get out there & get hardcopy petitions filled & send to Graham Dixon before March 15th!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM

This is an amendment in the Lords. It would reduce opposition greatly if Howells accepts it but I doubt if he will.


Schedule 1

THE LORD REDESDALE
THE VISCOUNT FALKLAND
THE BARONESS BUSCOMBE
THE LORD LUKE

Page 110, line 16, leave out "recorded"
Page 110, line 32, at end insert—
"Unamplified music incidental to certain other activities

(1)       The provision of entertainment consisting of the performance of live music (and not comprising or including the playing of recorded music) is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that the conditions specified in sub-paragraph (2) are satisfied and to the extent that it is incidental to some other activity that is not itself—
(a)   entertainment of a description falling within paragraph 2, or
(b)   the provision of entertainment facilities.
(2)       The conditions referred to in sub-paragraph (1) are that—
(a)   the other activity referred to in sub-paragraph (1) is the subject of, and is undertaken in accordance with, a licence granted under this Act;
(b)   the live music being performed is not provided in whole or part by means of, or with the assistance of, electrical or electronic amplification, or made more readily audible by such amplification either in the place where the performance is occurring or in any other place."
Schedule 6

THE BARONESS BUSCOMBE
THE LORD LUKE

Page 133, line 42, at end insert—
"51A (1)       Section 11 (provisions as to licensing and registration) is amended as follows.
(1)       For subsection (1) substitute—

"(1)       The provisions of Schedule 2 to this Act shall have effect with respect to the licensing of premises for gaming and in England and Wales for licensable activities ancillary thereto."

(2)       At end insert—

"(3)       In this section "licensable activities" has the same meaning as in the Licensing Act 2003"."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:44 AM

It isn't (directly) up to Howells whether he accepts such an amendment. it will be voted on in the Lords who decide whether they accept it or not. It will then be up to Howells to convince the House of Commons to re-instate the clause as was, or to come up with some alternative.

So our lobbying of MPs needs to be kept up, especially if any of these amendments are passed.

(The amendments by Lord Beaumont of Whitley would be even more benefical to the cause than the one quoted above, as they would delete music, plays and dance entirely from regulation under the bill as I read them.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:53 AM

ET

Amendments which just exempt or remove music could be quite a nuisance ... I, for one wouldn't be too happy with them.

I sword dance and do mumming plays too, and I can't see any reason for removing music and not other activities.

Lord Beaumont of Whitley's amendment decimates the list of things that have to be considered licensed entertainment, so I think it would be best to throw all our weight behind that one.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:16 AM

Any comments on Clause 174?

Clause 174 confers on an 'authorised person', the right to use reasonable force to enter premises in order to establish whether any music-making is being, or is about to be, carried under an authorisation.

Will be seeing an Elliot Ness style group of 'Untouchables' smashing down pub doors at the sound of, and in the seach for any unlicensed pianos?

This music making is a real problem, that must be stamped out at all cost................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM

68,529................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM

Yes. I think the situation is that if the Lords votes for an amendment its up to the bill sponsor to try to get the commons to reverse it, which Howells may well do. Therefore MPs need either to vote the amendment through or add amendments of there own.

Stand by with tape recorders attached to radio 1 from 8 pm Monday.

PS. The effects of this bill are gradually becoming better known. In the letters column of the Yorkshire post today someone had written - how can requiring a licence better promote live music in this country and the removal of the restriction on secular music in church was not a matter for celebration - who but a madman would ever have wanted such a licence in the first place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 04:08 AM

Licensing Bill – Making Tony and Cheri criminals.

Did anyone see "Trust me, I'm a politician" on BBC 2 Saturday night.   In the middle of it Tony and Cheri Blair committed what will become a most serious criminal offence. They were singing Christmas Carols accompanied by a number of infant children, playing fiddles, flutes and that most dangerous of weapons, the clarinet (dangerous because when the written note C is played it sounds B flat thus confounding Jobsworth from the Town Hall).

Moreover there were live cables threaded through these children (six months says Kim Howells, Culture Secretary).   Even if they had given the required notice to the Town Hall and Met Police and paid their £20, they would still deserve six months in prison because the audience must have exceeded the maximum the Licensing Bill will allow which is 499.

The good news is that if he keeps his nose clean he will be out in 3 months, by which time Prescott will have been in charge for only that time, and only half of Southern England will have been concreted over.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:12 AM

'Things can only get better'.................

Is there any chance of Mrs Blair explaining Human Rights legislation to her husband?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 08:34 AM

That amendment ET posted - they do seem to go in for needless complication, don't they? Amending that part of the Bill is very tricky, because they worry about putting in unintended loopholes.

It'd be far easier, and less "risky", to write in one or two specific exemptions in the exemptions section. (Part 2 of Schedule 1 of the Bill.)

I've suggested "The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities or participation in such activities where the primary purpose is for the mutual enjoyment of performers is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act."

That would cover sessions and singarounds and Morris Dancers and Mummers and so forth. And it would bring the Bill into line with Kim Howells guarantee on the Mike Harding show (Radio2 July 17th 2002) that "As long as money isn't changing hands then there's no reason why they should have to have a licence.

Another exemption would be needed if the paid pub gigs were to be protected - maybe an extended two-in-a-bar but with specific amplification limits. Maybe "The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities or participation in such activities where no more than three performers are involved at any time, is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act unless excessive amplification is used." That would leave the definition of excessive amplification to be determined in practice, with the courts having the last word.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM

69,012..................

Tessa Jowell was on Radio 3's Music Matters today. An account of it can be found on the 'News Blackout' thread. They do not seem to have yet rigged up where you can listen to what was said on the show.

You can contibute to their message board on the subject of licensing on the following. It may certainly help for future coverage, if the show's producers can see a lot of input there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=threads&board=radio3.musmatt&


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 07:57 AM

69,538..................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM

See the latest (good news) on the following thread.

Human Rights Committee AGREES PEL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 04:02 PM

Just listened to Howells on Radio 1. Didn't listen to all of it but heard him say "in my 14 years as an MP I have never had a complaint about acoustic music, folk or similar but plenty about piped music and amplified music. What I want is construction not criticism. In answer to the questioner "I am willing to think again about acoustic music". (to listen to all he was saying I would have had to listen to 4 hours of hip hop - maybe someone will and record full transcript.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:14 PM

69,969


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:37 AM

70,044................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:50 AM

Since typing these out, from Howells and Jowell, I am absolutely sure that I know how to spell the words 'absolutely sure'. I am not sure if I am absolutely sure of anything else..........

Tessa Jowell talking earlier that week, on BBC Radio 3's Music Matters. Broadcast 09 February 2003.

You've had some fairly bad publicity recently over the Licensing Bill, which there is a petition up, with 67,000 signatures on it, from people who believe that, this is the licensing of public entertainment section of the Bill, who believe that really amateur music making, or casual music making is being squeezed out, this is a related question of course to the widening of access, do you accept that?.

TJ The campaign run by the Musician's Union has err been extraordinarily successful in attributing consequences that err will not transpire as a matter of fact.

But that's alright isn't it to run a campaign?

TK Of course it is, and we think it is a campaign of misinformation, they think it is campaign that will raise a tremendous amount of popular hostility to this legislation.

Were are absolutely determined that this promotes music, live music in pubs and other you know restaurants and bars, you know the whole range of places in which music now takes place. Will not limit it, and err I'm prepared to look very carefully at all the fine print to make sure that it is made easier, not more difficult.

The licenses will be cheaper, it will be easier to apply for a licence. So many of the bureaucratic obstacles that people face at the moment will change under the new legislation. But I think that what everybody has got to understand is that, there is absolutely no question that Tessa Jowell and Kim Howells got in to the office one morning and said, I know what we've got to do today. We are basically going to shut down music in pubs and clubs up and down the country. It is absolute nonsense.


I mean the thing about music is that it is such a fluid, casual kind of activity….

TK Of course…..

That you're legislating against it, in effect?

TJ No I don't think that's the case. And what I certainly don't want to see is a situation where six people are sitting around in a pub and they start singing together or somebody has guitar and they start singing and they are stopped because they haven't got a licence, I mean that would be patently ridiculous.

Its wonderful when music is made in that kind of spontaneous way, and yes I'm going to make absolutely sure, as is Kim Howells that the legislation supports, rather than undermines.


Do you foresee altering or there being any alterations in this?

TJ Well, we are at the beginning err, or we are half way through scrutiny in the Lords and then the Bill will come to the Commons around about Easter. And err certainly we will take the debate very seriously indeed and the whole purpose of Paliamentary democracy is to improve legislation. If it can be improved and if the evidence is that err a particular amendment will make it better. But everybody should be absolutely clear that our objective is to ensure that live music in pubs, flourishes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

Thanks for doing that Shambles. That interviewer did quite a good job. In black and white, I'd read it as sounding very much as if a concession on sessions in pubs could actually be on the way.

Which means it's time to keep sending in nagging letters and getting people to sign petitions and so forth. For one thing they could well back off from accepting the right kind of amendment - and there are other things wrong with the bill as well, especially the risk to pub gigs generally. And of course Morris Dancers and such.

Nice letter in the Guardian today commenting on the one by Attila the Stockbroker ( a former Harlow man) the other day:

What a pity Attila the Stockbroker (Letters, February 8) sneers at his allies while attacking the licensing bill. Why dismiss the anger of traditional musicians and dancers as "whining"? Does he imagine he's the only one planning more than just petitions? He might one day be glad of friends with big sticks.
JE Howard
Bedford


And here is what Atila had written:

· No idea what my wife has sent to you, but can I take the opportunity to add my own favourite Half Man Half Biscuit lyric: When I had my loft converted back into a loft, the neighbours came around and scoffed and called me retro.

I've organised about five gigs for them, but now New Labour has managed to come up with yet another piece of legislation which even the most rightwing Tory would be proud of. They want all live music to be subject to a licence - a direct attack on dissident grassroots culture and confirmation that in the ideal New Labour world everyone is a TV-gawking passive consumer vegetable devoid of an original or independent thought.

Widescreen TV transmissions in pubs to hundreds won't be affected though, 'cos that would upset New Labour's friend, Rupert. Unbelievable! I can only make an appropriate response:

OFF LICENCE!
(for Kim Howells)
Rupert Murdoch, that's your "culture"
Tellytubby corporate state
Widescreen god won't need a licence -
He got you elected, mate!
Thousand Morris dancers whining
With petitions so polite
Some of us aren't whingeing folkies
And you've got yourself a fight!
Sky TV New Labour Tory
Mainstream dullard business bores
So come on, arrest Attila -
Cos I'll flout your stupid laws!
Poems and songs don't need a licence.
Never have and never will.
I'm here in your face, Kim Howells -
Tearing up your licence bill!

Attila the Stockbroker
Southwick, W Sussex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM

Roger, can you post or post links here to the standard 3-page letter to MPs and the standard DCMS 12 page blurb.

I have just finished the Performer-Lawyer Group response to these but it will help people to be able to see them all at once - if I quoted the other two it woudl have doubled the length of mine.

Warning, my reply is 19 pages of legalese.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:21 PM

http://www.does4you.co.uk/REPLY.htm

The above link is to the requested documents, on Molly and Terry's site. Perhaps they would host the Performer - Lawyer Group response there as well?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 03:45 PM

71,056......................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM

The Western Morning News is running a fine local campaign.

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=116762&command=newPage


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM

The thing is, listening to Tessa Jowell and reading the transcript, there's an interesting difference between the "promise" Kim Howells made back in July, that for sessions and singarounds there would be no need at all for any kind of licence to be in place, "so long as money isn't changing hands", and what she said.

This time what's supposed to be protected, if she were to be trusted to follow through, would be "a situation where six people are sitting around in a pub and they start singing together or somebody has a guitar and they start singing".

Which, when you think of it doesn't sound like the same thing at all as a normal singaround or session, where people have arranged to get together on a regular basis, and it's open to others to come along and join in.

I'd say there definitely seems to be an indication that some kinds of concessions could be in the pipeline. However they could be well short of anything we'd want. They could in fact fall in line with Tessa Jowell's remarks, but not even extend as far as what Kim Howells promised (falsely it seems) to deliver. (71109 signatures now.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM

Thank you Roger.

Mega-email about to go out.

Kent on Sunday is stirring it up too.

Also BBC Radio Kent have me on at about 7.40 tomorrow (Thursday) morning. 96.7fm, Kent, UK. Don't know about internet radio.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

I think from listening to Tessa Jowell, that unlike Howells, she really believed what she said.....So it may well be worth while writing directly to her, and trying to explain what actually happens in sessions and such like.....Nothing to lose by trying, and they may well be more prepared to listen now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM

Isn't the etiquette of these things supposed to be that we write to our own MPs and ask them to forward the comments on?

Just to be on the safe side I'd suggest doing it both ways.

I agreed she sounded more sincere than Kim Howells. Of course that might be she is just better at sounding sincere. However my feeling is that this is a cockup rather than anything.

Having failed to consult with the right people over this, because the whole focus of the Bill was on the booze side of it, they found themselves with a Bill that was fatally flawed. And most politicians don't seem to have a reverse gear.

So sending her helpful sugestions for ways of getting out of this mess with minimum embarassment makes sense. What is needed are clarifications in the bill that will make it clear that all the dreadful things we have been worried about do not happen, and everyone is happy and says what a good job that Tessa Jowell is doing (and so for that matter is that card Kim Howells with his winning Welsh ways...)

I'll even write a song saying that if they deliver!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:01 PM

Having ceased to get a response to e-mails I have now tried snail mail to Howells - thus (sorry if its a bit wordy)

Attention of Dr Kim Howells.

An open, from the heart letter written as an amateur musician, not a lawyer.


Let me be constructive about music issues.   I work in the law and have done so all my working life (38 years now).

I am a law abiding citizen and my hobbies are not considered by me, or anyone I know, to be dangerous or offensive. I know you have said that the maximum penalty would be reserved by Magistrates to those who endanger health and safety. From my background I understand this well, but maximum penalties, and statutes with only one penalty, are also indicative of Parliaments view of the seriousness of offences. Even if I am to be accused only of playing a musical instrument in an unlicensed premises I have no wish to have to exercise a defence of due diligence, since prosecution alone would be disastrous in my employment, let alone conviction.

I would wish to explain the concern of myself, the thirty or forty musicians I know well and the thousands who express themselves through a musicians web site.

My hobby is music. I am not particularly good, indeed most of my friends play better but nonetheless I have a passion for playing. I play only acoustic instruments. I play mainly in a local pub, which has a PEL. The landlord has spent thousands on compliance with local authority requirements about crash bars, toilets etc. He has done this because he can afford it, has a passion for music and encourages players. He says that since we play for our own amusement in the main, and also for his pleasure, that the locals neither mind nor care, it adds nothing to his profits.

Playing at other pubs, with PELs, I find that when we "folkies" are playing at our best, sounds that to me are a delight, nonetheless many patrons do not even look our way, just walk in and to the bar.   This is because they are not disturbed by us, not offended, and don't care. Often we play in pubs in one small room, and in adjoining rooms there may be darts matches, pool or juke boxes. The only disturbance is to us from juke boxes. In 20 years playing I have never known a complaint from others in the pub. Occasionally enthusiastic applause, mainly indifference.

If a landlord thought we were putting off others and reducing his trade it would not be lack of a licence that ended our playing, it would be his decision.

I also play in folk festivals. They are often sponsored heavily by Local Authorities, who, on festival week, follow Home Office Guidelines and do not enforce the two in a bar rule, because they want to and do, attract many tourists to their town. Some authorities follow this philosophy throughout the year, others enforce the two in a bar rule with a rod of iron and then waive it for festival weeks. They are not particularly popular as you may imagine.


Your bill has cause tremendous anxiety for amateur musicians. We hoped the hated 2 in a bar rule, which you agree is a nonsense, would go. But not to be replaced with a none in a bar rule. We all know that local authorities, well meaning or otherwise, follow the dictates of their insurers and take no risks.   They assume all music is the same, all audiences are the same, with a potential for trouble, overcrowding etc. This is simply not so.

I noted that you said on the radio the other night you had never heard of a complaint of noise or trouble from acoustic music. I neither. Its not that such music is bland, it can be passionate, but it needs listening to and most of those who are members of the "yob culture" would not be seen dead listening to such.

So why are we worried. It is not paranoia or misinformation by the musicians union I assure you. It is because of the provisions of the bill.   If a landlord "ticks your music box" and adds acoustic music only, what will that mean to people living in the vicinity? They will only see the word music and think of thumps in the late night, walls vibrating etc and object. And if they do, or even if the landlord thinks they will object, he will not tick this box.    Landlords know, and all those who play know, that even with 20 players in a session, playing a fast Irish Jig, with Irish Drums (bodrhans) it is virtually impossible for the sound to penetrate the walls. There is none of the hideous bass thumps of amplified recorded music.

And also, given the "light touch" notice of an event elsewhere, there are obvious problems. Premises are defined as "any place" and such notice relates to events attracting crowds of less than 500.   But such an event may be, at festival time, every day of the week in a market square. What sort of "premise" is that. And how big is the audience? How far out do you count?

And would not your bill kill of busking? They play usually in a street for money. Is that not a "place". How can they know the size of a crowd? Would a local authority give then occasional permissions? Even if the fee was "only £20" they would be unlikely to raise that sum in collections. I think you have said that they can enliven many a dark corner. Would these stay dark?

Consider also your "culture" hat.   I have just read the "Rough" Guide to Ireland. In it every place has described its "Traditional Music Pub". It talks of continental visitors coming year after year for the music.   I have several Irish friends. They say that there is never any trouble in music pubs there but there would be if the Irish Government tried to license it.


I cannot think where you get the idea that acoustic music is not necessarily free of noise. At its very worst it might annoy others in the pub, but rest assured any landlord would kick it out if he thought it was affecting trade.   I understand you like Jazz. I know of several pubs that put on Jazz nights. These are the noisiest of acoustic instruments (saxes etc) but they cannot be heard outside the premises.   But I know of many pubs in my local city that only play recorded music but it echoes down the street. I have even attended symphony concerts in a local City Hall, which, in quieter passages are interrupted by the thump thump from a pub 500 yards away playing amplified pre recorded music.


AM I BEING CONSTRUCTIVE?

I hope so. I ask you to consider the amendments in the Lords and adopt them. There would be absolutely no public noise or disturbance issues if acoustic music were exempt.

If I am leaving amplified life music exposed, then so be it. Impose conditions that protect the public from unlicensed and unsafe raves in fields, but allow properly organised and safety conscious amplified music to continue with proper licences.

If you do this you will remove anxiety from folk, jazz, buskers, players of medieval music, Salvation Army Players, organisers and players in folk and jazz festivals. The near 65,000 people who have signed the e-petition will be mightily relieved.

You will be able to meet some human rights issues with ease and concentrate on selling this legislation for what it will then become, a true de-regulation measure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM

I thnk that's the right tone to take, ET. Patient and thorough, and avoiding sarcasm or irony. Ignoring the insults and the sneers, taking him at his word when he says he wants advice.

Just hope he reads it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 05:53 AM

71669 Total Signatures!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM

This from Hamish Birchall - For circulation

On Sunday 9 February, during an interview on 'Music Matters' for BBC Radio 3, Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell said the Musicians' Union Licensing Bill campaign was a 'campaign of misinformation'. This was, of course, a day before the Joint Committee on Human Rights published its report vindicating MU concerns. The Committee concluded that the 'blanket licensing regime' proposed in the Bill carries a 'significant risk' of infringing people's right to freedom of expression under Article 10 of the European Convention.

The MU will respond to the Culture Secretary's allegation on this Sunday's edition of BBC R3's Music Matters, starting at 12.15pm (16 Feb).

The growing body of legal opinion in support of the MU analysis of the Bill's implications includes a specialist licensing QC. In additions, the Performer-Lawyer group, which also shares MU concerns, has published a 19-page dissection of the 24-point DCMS document published last month, concluding that much of the DCMS analysis is either inaccurate or misleading. It is available on: www.does4you.co.uk

My own annotated version of the DCMS document on the MU site:
http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/dcms_issues01.shtml


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 01:07 AM

If you are in any doubt about the effect of Bill's wording or you wish to inform your MP or media, then please have a look at the above sites, in particular at Richard Bridge's (long but) vital rebuttal of the claims for the Bill made by the DCMS.

A PDF version of this letter to his MP, can be found on the following site. http://www.adac-records.co.uk/licensing-bill/kim-howells/

72,013...........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:28 AM

Please circulate.

Having now read Richard's fine document, can I suggest a visit to the following site, http://www.adac-records.co.uk/licensing-bill/kim-howells/ where you can print both the leaflet from the DCMS and the Performer-Lawyer Group's response, and that both are sent to your MP as a matter of some urgency?

It is a lot of paper but it is vital that MPs, many of who may have swallowed the 'spin', are made aware of quite how poor the words of this Bill are. This document will demonstrate to MPs the size of the problem that is facing them now and what future legal problems they/we will face, if the Bill is passed.

We are only going to get this one chance. We really must make to most of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM

Have read this guidance. Madness.   On page 46 it says "Temporary Events requiring premises licence - para 6.75 - duration - limited to events lasting 73 hours.
Same page para 6.77 - Temporary events may range from relatively small local events, like fairs, which last four or five days, to major pop festivals lasting only 1 day.

Presumably all week long festivals will now be limited to 3 days and Hull and Nottingham Fairs, which last a week, will be limited to 3 days. Unless Howells has the power to change time in the act?

There is little to encourage anyone that he cares about music in these regulations. I am surprised it doesn't introduce a music police force, with a long black coat and red peaked hat, equipped with metronome, whilst and bag of fixed penalty notices.

Happy Valentine


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 01:53 PM

http://www.culture.gov.uk/new_responsibilities/guidance_section177_licensing.pdf

The above link is to the DCMS Guidance (PDF), on their site, Eric refers to above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM

72,506................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

72767 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM

Have sent this to my MP having read the draft "guidance".   I do think that as drafted providing pub sessions where for theenjoyment of the musicians and no "facilities" were provided there is a good chance that no licence would be required. Needs a careful look at the guidance which has no legal effect of course. Indoor sports need a licence and Howells says that they are "not played for the enterainment of spectators but for the private enjoyment of the participants (like sessions?) but he goes on "it is only when such games are staged for spectators, for example a darts championship compeition, that the activity would become licensable.

For music there is another clause about entertainment facilities such as a dance floor but none is usually provided at sessions I attend.!

============================================================


Licensing Darts in Pubs!

I enclose a couple of pages from the draft guide to the licensing bill issued by Mr Howells. I have no love of pub games but paragraph 6.6 requires a licence for an indoor sporting event. Para 6.9 makes it clear that if such a game is staged for spectators such as a darts championship competition, is a licence required. Failure to have same - £20,000 and or 6 months.   He also refers to pool, table tennis and billiards!

This illustrates the nonsense. Darts played for the pleasure of the darts team – no licence. (presumably acoustic music played for the pleasure of the musicians the same – no facilities provided such as a stage etc (see para 6.7) but if for darts or music played for the entertainment of spectators (his word, the act says audience) then a licence is required!

What absolute nonsense. No wonder he himself is confused and said on the radio once that pubs sessions played for the pleasure of the musicians was not licensable and later said it was.

I would write to him direct but I fear he has ceased to respond. Would you be so kind as to copy this to your colleague, the shadow minister for culture?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM

Pub games

6.9 Games commonly played in pubs and clubs and social and youth clubs like pool, darts, table tennis and billiards may fall within the definition of indoor sports in Schedule 1, but normally they would not be played for entertainment of spectators but for the private enjoyment of the participants. As such they are not regulated entertainment, and the facilities provided (even if a pub provides them for profit) do not fall within the limited list of entertainment facilities in the Schedule.

It is only when such games are staged for spectators, for example, a darts championship competition that the activity would become licensable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM

This also from the DCMS.

        Entertainment facilities are defined by the Bill as facilities for enabling persons to take part in music making, dancing or similar entertainment, for the purpose of being entertained. An antique piano in a pub that was only provided for decorative effect would not give rise to the need for a licence. And a licence would not be required if the pub operator did not allow the public to play it. A licence would only be required if it was used to entertain people at the premises or by people on the premises to entertain themselves.

So a pub can even charge for provding darts or a cue and even then it is not licensable. But the mere provision of a playable piano is.............Perfectly logical this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM

but the pianists could be entertaining himself & would therefore need a licence- if he was wearing ear-muffs no licence needed?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:19 PM

72940 Total Signatures


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 11:44 AM

Below is an extract from 11 files of Government Amendments (received from the Musicians/Performing Lawyers Group. I think this looks like good news but there are 11 such files and many are complex.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 110, line 32, at end insert—
        "Unamplified music incidental to certain other activities
(1)              The provision of entertainment consisting of the performance of live music (and not comprising or including the playing of recorded music) is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that the conditions specified in sub-paragraph (2) are satisfied and to the extent that it is incidental to some other activity that is not itself—
(a)         entertainment of a description falling within paragraph 2, or
(b)         the provision of entertainment facilities.
(2)              The conditions referred to in sub-paragraph (1) are that—
(a)         the other activity referred to in sub-paragraph (1) is the subject of, and is undertaken in accordance with, a licence granted under this Act;
(b)         the live music being performed is not provided in whole or part by means of, or with the assistance of, electrical or electronic amplification, or made more readily audible by such amplification either in the place where the performance is occurring or in any other place."
        Schedule 6
        THE BARONESS BUSCOMBETHE LORD LUKE


Page 111, line 32, at end insert—
        "but excludes traditional pub games such as skittles, darts, billiards, snooker, pool or table football"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Also received this as Government Amendments. B


AMENDMENTS
TO BE MOVED
ON REPORT

        Schedule 1
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 108, line 32, leave out from "of" to ", and" in line 33 and insert—
"(i)         any person concerned in the organisation or management of that entertainment, or
(ii)         any person concerned in the organisation or management of those facilities who is also concerned in the organisation or management of the entertainment within paragraph 3(2) in which those facilities enable persons to take part"
        Page 108, line 37, at end insert—
"(   )         For the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)(a), where the entertainment consists of the peformance of live music or the playing of recorded music, a person performing or playing the music is not concerned in the organisation or management of the entertainment by reason only that he does one or more of the following—
(a)         chooses the music to be performed or played,
(b)         determines the manner in which he performs or plays it,
(c)         provides any facilities for the purposes of his performance or playing of the music."
        Clause 7
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 4, line 44, at end insert—
"(   )         In a case where an authority exercises its power under subsection (5)(b), its licensing committee must (unless the matter is urgent) consider any report of any of the authority's other committees with respect to the matter before discharging the function concerned."
        Clause 13
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 8, line 30, at end insert—
"(   )         the local planning authority within the meaning given by the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (c. 8) for any area in which the premises are situated,"
        Clause 17
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 11, line 9, leave out "Regulations may" and insert "The Secretary of State must by regulations"
        Clause 29
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 16, line 35, leave out "power to make regulations under" and insert "duty to make regulations imposed on the Secretary of State by"
        Page 16, line 38, after "made" insert "under section 17(5)(a)"
        Clause 33
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 19, line 15, leave out "power to make regulations under" and insert "duty to make regulations imposed on the Secretary of State by"
        Clause 50
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 29, line 30, leave out "Regulations under this section may" and insert "The Secretary of State must by regulations under this section"
        Clause 68
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 39, line 38, at end insert—
"(   )         the local planning authority within the meaning given by the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (c. 8) for any area in which the premises are situated,"
        Clause 70
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 41, line 4, leave out "Regulations may" and insert "The Secretary of State must by regulations"
        Clause 71
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 41, line 26, leave out from "application" to end of line 28
        Page 41, line 40, leave out from "objectives" to end of line 42
        Clause 72
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Leave out Clause 72
        Clause 82
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 46, line 23, leave out "power to make regulations under" and insert "duty to make regulations imposed on the Secretary of State by"
        Clause 83
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 47, line 17, leave out subsection (7)
        Clause 85
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 48, line 19, leave out "Regulations under this section may" and insert "The Secretary of State must by regulations under this section"
        Clause 86
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 49, line 32, leave out subsection (5)
        Schedule 4
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 116, line 38, at end insert—
".         An offence under any of the following provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)—
(a)         section 107(1)(d)(iii) (public exhibition in the course of a business of article infringing copyright);
(b)         section 198(2) (broadcast etc. of recording of performance made without sufficient consent);
(c)         section 297(1) (fraudulent reception of transmission);
(d)         section 297A(1) (supply etc. of unauthorised decoder)."
        Clause 130
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 72, line 7, leave out from "apply," to "or" in line 9
        Clause 134
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 74, line 9, at end insert—
"(1A)         Where the licensable activity in question is the provision of regulated entertainment, a person does not commit an offence under this section if his only involvement in the provision of the entertainment is that he—
(a)         performs in a play,
(b)         participates as a sportsman in an indoor sporting event,
(c)         boxes or wrestles in a boxing or wrestling entertainment,
(d)         performs live music,
(e)         plays recorded music,
(f)         performs dance, or
(g)         does something coming within pargraph 2(1)(h) of Schedule 1 (entertainment similar to music, dance, etc.).
(1B)         Subsection (1A) is to be construed in accordance with Part 3 of Schedule 1."
        Clause 137
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 75, line 12, leave out "section" and insert "subsection"
        Clause 164
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 89, line 34, leave out "Regulations may" and insert "The Secretary of State must by regulations"
        Clause 169
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 94, line 6, at end insert—
"(   )         Before making an order under this section, the Secretary of State must consult such persons as he considers appropriate."
        Clause 177
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 98, line 15, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
"(1)         The Secretary of State must issue guidance ("the licensing guidance") to licensing authorities on the discharge of their functions under this Act.
(1A)         But the Secretary of State may not issue the licensing guidance unless a draft of it has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.
(1B)         The Secretary of State may, from time to time, revise the licensing guidance.
(1C)         A revised version of the licensing guidance does not come into force until the Secretary of State lays it before Parliament.
(1D)         Where either House, before the end of the period of 40 days beginning with the day on which a revised version of the licensing guidance is laid before it, by resolution disapproves that version—
(a)         the Secretary of State must, under subsection (1B), make such further revisions to the licensing guidance as appear to him to be required in the circumstances, and
(b)         before the end of the period of 40 days beginning with the date on which the resolution is made, lay a further revised version of the licensing guidance before Parliament.
(1E)         In reckoning any period of 40 days for the purpose of subsection (1D), no account is to be taken of any time during which—
(a)         Parliament is dissolved or prorogued, or
(b)         both Houses are adjourned for more than four days."
        Clause 178
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 98, line 28, at end insert ";
(   )         prescribe the period within which an application, in relation to which a hearing has been held, must be determined or any other step in the procedure must be taken"
        Schedule 8
        THE BARONESS BLACKSTONE
        Page 164, line 9, leave out from first "and" to "in" in line 10 and insert "section 73 (prohibited conditions in club premises certificates) applies"
        Page 164, line 14, leave out "sections 72 and" and insert "section"
        Page 168, line 15, leave out "1964 Act" and insert "Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26)"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 11:52 AM

Please look at this. It is interesting


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2775821.stm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:01 PM

ET,

yes very interesting- but can we trust them i wonder?

prob t blair doesn't need any more knock downs in his popularity poll, with all the folkies & other all dancing,singing artistes!

so he's told jowls & howls [govt comedy duo] to clean up their act!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM

Looking at Baroness Blackstone's (official) amendments very briefly, it appears as though it's probably worse than it was before. It doesn't stop these things being illegal if not licensed, just decriminalises those who carry them out.

This means it's taken away our power to use civil disobedience as a weapon but still means the landlord of a pub will get into trouble. Pretty much back to the situation as before, but with the 2 in a bar exemption removed and other restrictions (like the pub piano one). It also doesn't seem to cope with things like advertised carol singing except to say that it's illegal but you won't get prosecuted for it.

An ambiguous law is always worse than a plain bad one.

Support Lord Whittle's amendments!!!

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

Sorry ... I mean Lord Beaumont of Whitley's amendments (28th January).

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM

73,145..................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:32 PM

Is this the one?

Clause 1

THE LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

Page 1, line 8, after "entertainment" insert "on controlled premises"
Clause 134

THE LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

Page 74, line 6, at end insert "covered"
Schedule 1

THE LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

Page 109, line 9, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b)
Page 109, line 13, leave out paragraphs (e) to (h)
Page 109, line 18, after "audience" insert "of more than 300 paying people"
Page 111, line 8, leave out "one" and insert "three"
Page 111, line 16, at end insert "excluding those shown on a television screen or projection of such a screen"
Page 111, line 32, at end insert—
   "but excludes traditional pub games such as skittles, darts, billiards, snooker, pool or table football"
Page 111, line 37, leave out from "Music" to end of line 38 and insert "means amplified instrumental music performed by more than two people"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM

Blackstone is govt. Rest are not. My haste gave some a different impression. Sorry.

Blackstone almost solves the provate party problem. THer est are still problems.
Beaumont is unworkable (think about it, 300 people with amps in teh pub over the road from your house!!)

I have spent hours today on comments to other performer lawyers and one draft amendment inspired by Beaumont for Jazzers, but can everyone please write Howells and tell him Baroness Buscombe's acoustic exemption solves man y problems and by Howells own admission on Radio 1 (no compaints about acoustic music) on Monday does not harm any of teh licensing objective?

We desperately need someone witha good grasp of hte law and of Morris dancing practice to addres teh probelms for Morris dance.

Howells is also offereing to consult with almost everyone except the EFDSS about the guidelines. Why not them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 04:28 PM

Beaumont is unworkable (think about it, 300 people with amps in teh pub over the road from your house!!)

Surely, Richard, even with the Beaumont amendments the 300 people could be stopped under the existing noise laws?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 04:43 AM

Thing is, the Beaumont amendment is the only thing that even attempts to address more than just music.

For reference about primarily non-musical activities:

Morris Dancers and Longsword dancers usually dance outside 2 or 3 pubs a night, every 2-3 weeks in summer.

Mummers usually do a once-a-year play inside 3-4 pubs on a single night

Rapper sword dancers dance inside 5-6 pubs a night, every 2-3 weeks in winter.

Nod doubt there are other groups, but these are the ones I have most to do with.

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Admiral
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:01 AM

73,591.... Round 'em up, we're slowing down!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:39 AM

Eliza Carthy's acceptance speech for the Radio 2 folk awards included a demand that everyone sign the petition - this went out on the Mike Harding show last night.
Cheers
Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: BanjoRay
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:29 PM

Sorry, that last guest was me.
Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:28 AM

New stuff out from EFDSS - on thier site soon, and 2 press releases from PLG, will be going on EFDSS site too and may well be on adac and does4you - if not, adac and 4you please add.

Rushing.

Keep these threads active.

Debate in Hous of Lords Monday.

After that, last stage in Lords (where we have a chance to get amendments passed, unlike in Commons where government has large majority) will be report stage, so I MUST finish drafting all the amendments we might need soon, so other PLG members can check them and we can present a united front....

A little bird tell s me the Institute of Acoustics has protested to the gov't about its unpublished documents being quoted (I add, in breach of copyright) out of context.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM

This to Tessa Jowell, Howell's boss. Have written to her before but had no reply to anything.



15 February 2003


Dear Madam,

Re English Folk Dance and Song Society – The Bill will kill folk arts.

I was interested in your recent comments on culture in Germany and the lack
of Culture in England. I enclose a paper from the English Folk Dance and Song Society (efdss) which makes out a clear case for real deregulation to enable folk arts to flourish.

I know Mr Howells says that his intentions are to encourage folk arts and music but I think whoever drafted the Bill has come up with provisions that will have exactly the opposite effect. (a paper commenting on his "exploding myths" leaflet is also attached.)

I had recently written to you urging the exemption of non amplified music etc from this bill. This, if adopted from Lords amendments, would answer most of the EFDSS problems.

I know that the government has grave and weighty matters to contend with at this time but it would be dreadful if a culture going back centuries was lost by distraction.


Yours gratefully


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 05:58 AM

This from Hamish

Sky News is filming a piece about the Licensing Bill tomorrow, Saturday Feb 22, 1pm in The Globe public house, Morning Lane, Hackney, London E9. Steve Powell, the landlord, was famously prosecuted for allowing members of the public to join in with a duo singing Happy Birthday!

I'm really sorry about the late notice, but Sky only contacted me late this afternoon. If you are within easy reach of Hackney, please come along.


74,183............................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM

74,529.....................

The Government appear to have moved the goal posts. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp .

The Number 10 site has been updated. See if you can find any reference there now to E Petitions?

Has this one been too well supported for them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: treewind
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:29 AM

I find it deeply disturbing that the page describing how e-petitions are valid and recognised by by Downing street has vanished.

This cannot be accidental and it suggests to me that we have a real and dirty fight coming up.

Anahata


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:51 AM

This is a copy of a press release issued by the Musicians' Union this morning (Mon 24 Feb). Note that today is not the last day on which amendments can be proposed. There is a final '3rd Reading' debate scheduled for early March. The Bill will go to the House of Commons in mid- or late-March:

Members of the House of Lords are expected to vote today on a series of live music amendments to the Licensing Bill. Opposition Peers are hoping to defeat the Government's proposed legislation that would make even solo acoustic performance illegal unless licensed, abolishing a long-standing exemption for up to two live performers. The Government claims reform is necessary to control potential noise nuisance.

General Secretary John F Smith said: "Given the Bill's exemptions for big screen broadcasts or pub jukeboxes, no matter how powerful the amplification, we have never understood the Government's position. There is plenty of legislation that already covers both noise and public safety. It applies across the UK, and in Scotland no licence is required for live music that is secondary to the main business of restaurants and bars. Similarly liberal regimes work well in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe.

"We accept that licensing may be necessary to control premises that specialise in music or music and dancing. But where live music is secondary to the main business, licensing is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There are many hoops to jump through, including public consultation. Being exempt, jukeboxes and big screens will be the easy option for many licensees.

"Now more than ever we need to stimulate the grass roots of the music industry. Most of our 32,000 members will seek work in this sector at some time in their careers, but never have there been fewer places to play.

"Many Peers have spoken eloquently on our behalf. I would like to thank all of them, particularly Lord Redesdale and Baroness Buscombe. I only hope their amendments succeed today".

The Marshalled List of Amendments is available at the Parliament website:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/021/amend/ml021-i.htm

A number of Lords have put down amendments relating to live music, including Baroness Buscombe and Lord Beaumont of Whitley. Lord Redesdale's Amendments 8 and 12 provide exemptions for the playing of live music that is incidental to other activities (giving parity with the Government exemption for the playing of recorded music in this context), and an exemption for acoustic or minimally amplified live music.

ENDS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 01:49 PM

No details yet but a phone call from a very excited Hamish in the House of Lords was GOOD NEWS!

I will say that again - GOOD NEWS!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: harpmaker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

Great news! I would say.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM

what's this good news?- please don't keep it to yourself!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Admiral
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:05 AM

Please put us out of our misery - what good news?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM

I believe THIS may be the good news ... from the BBC ...

Nativity plays prompt Lords defeat

Ministers say nativity plays will not be affected
Fears that new laws would force schools to get licences to put on nativity plays have led to the government being defeated in the House of Lords four times. Opposition peers voted by 169 votes to 107 to exclude schools from the provisions of the Licensing Bill, which is aimed at shaking up the UK's outdated drinking laws.

The defeat came despite warnings the exemption could leave university nightclubs free of licensing controls.

Ministers have accused the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats of propagating "myths" about the bill, especially about its effect on live music acts in pubs.

Schools' exemption

Ahead of Monday's debates, Tory spokeswoman Lady Buscombe told BBC News Online her party backed the bill in principle but believed ministers were squandering a key opportunity for change.

Lady Buscombe said the current wording would make schools apply for an entertainment licence if a nativity play, for example, was attended by more than just pupils' families - because of public safety concerns.

Culture Minister Kim Howells has accused opponents of spreading "myths" "The point of the bill is that it is supposed to be deregulatory but it's not: it's adding unnecessary layers of bureaucracy."

Her amendment, backed by the Lib Dems, excluded "educational establishments" from the bill. But Culture Minister Baroness Blackstone insisted the bill would not impose any extra burdens on schools, who were currently not excluded from licensing laws.

Schools would not have to apply for licences under the new laws if charges for entertainment events were only levied to cover production costs, she said.

"The vast majority of school activities of this kind would be exempt," she said.

Student union fears

Lady Blackstone accused the Tories of being "reckless" because the scope of their amendment would go far beyond school plays.

It could even mean nightclubs run by students unions - prompting concerns about alcohol consumption, noise and drugs - would not need licences, she suggested.

"Just because these activities are taking place in schools, it does not mean the public should not be protected," she added.

Billy Bragg and MPs complain pub singers could be gagged
The government now looks set to try to overturn the defeat when the bill next goes before MPs.

Earlier, opposition parties accepted a government change to exclude religious places of worship from the new entertainment licence rules.

Much of the criticism of the bill has surrounded plans for pubs and nightclubs to get new-style licences to put on live entertainment.

The government is tabling an amendment to its bill to ensure bands and solo acts are not punished.

Human right

But ministers were defeated by opposition peers who backed by 151 votes to 115 a Lib Dem amendment to exclude most unamplified live music from the new laws.

Ministers believe the change does not leave councils with enough flexibility for each case and are likely to try to overturn the defeat in the Commons.

The government suffered a third defeat over a Lib Dem motion to set up a central authority in charge of licensees.

Peers backed the amendment by 143 votes to 111 - a majority of 32.

A fourth defeat then followed as peers backed an amendment that would put a new duty on the licensing authority to protect the "amenity and environment" of local residents.


:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Admiral
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:34 AM

Ok, fortunately there's a much clearer report in todays (Tues) Telegraph (unfortunately not online so I can't link it) headlines 'Lords pull plug on rule for unamplified music'. First para; 'The Government was defeated in the Lords last night after Peers backed a move to exclude most unamplified live music in pubs from the provisions of the Licensing Bill. The voting on the amendment put forward by the Liberal Democrats was 151 to 115. Lord McIntosh, the Goverment Spokesman said that he was opposed to the amendment because it didn't give the licensing authorities suifficient flexibility to decide in individual cases'.

We're not there yet but we're headed in the right direction!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:09 AM

The whole debate here.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/monday/index.htm

Yes there is a long way to go but a lot of hard work has been undertaken, just to enable us to fight on. Thanks to everyone for that, for without winning these small battles, the war would already be over.

We must keep writing to our MPs. Presenting them with the new EFDSS document will save you a lot of words and possibly ensure that they are now consulted.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Admiral
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:21 AM

OK I keep going back to the EFDSS website for a glimpse of the famous document but no sign of it yet. Perhaps they're going to snail mail it to members only? I am a member but I'm not sure that we can afford to wait that long!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM

75000. Graham MEHEUX 24 Chapel Road Plumpton Green BN7 3DD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:58 PM

See also Busking without a licence. Suggest all buskers print this, laminate it and carry it with them to thrust at the music police when they come to arrest you!!

Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail concerning busking. I am sorry for the delay in
replying, however I can assure you that under the Licensing Bill busking
will not need to be licensed.
I hope that this addresses your concerns.
Kind regards

Claire Vickers
Alcohol & Entertainment Licensing Branch
Department for Culture, Media and Sport
3rd Floor
2-4 Cockspur Street
London
SW1Y 5DH

Tel: 020 7211 6380
Fax: 020 7211 6319

Email: claire.vickers@culture.gsi.gov.uk
www.culture.gov.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM

I have written to the person who wrote it and asked him to try and get a link posted on the first page.

I have also asked him to post on here.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
www.holmfirthfestival.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM

Sorry.....that was about the EFDSS document.

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:53 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall...

Yesterday's Report Stage debate of the Licensing Bill saw opposition Peers defeat the Government over key live music provisions.

The Lib Dems teamed up with the Conservatives, winning amendments to the Bill that would exempt certain categories of live performance (incidental, acoustic), and certain categories of premises (educational establishments). For reference, these amendments were 8, 12 and 13 respectively. Press coverage today included 'Lords pull plug on rule for unamplified music', Daily Telegraph 25.02.03, p10.

View the Marshalled list of amendments online at:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/021/amend/ml021-i.htm

And read the debate:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds03/text/30224-03.htm#30224-03_head1

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds03/text/30224-14.htm#30224-14_ignore0

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds03/text/30224-22.htm#30224-22_ignore0

This is good news, but it is not the end of campaigning. Why? The reason is clearly stated in the Daily Telegraph report: 'When the Bill is returned to the Commons, MPs will be asked by the Government to throw out the amendment approved in the Lords' (specifically refering to the unamplified music amendment). Direct lobbying of MPs continues to be essential. Encourage them to support the Lords' amendments. If they decline, ask why.

If they say licensing is necessary for safety or noise reasons, ask them to explain in detail what licensing achieves in terms of safety and noise control that cannot be achieved by subsisting legislation. Ask them why subsisting legislation is good enough for Scotland but not for England and Wales. Ask whether the government has evidence that live music in England and Wales is a greater noise or safety risk than in Scotland. Ask them what data for noise complaints does the government rely on. Ask whether the statistics discrimate between complaints caused by live or recorded music. No doubt you can think of better questions.

If enacted, the Lords amendments would mean that live music 'incidental to other activities' (i.e. not featured entertainment), amplified or acoustic, would be exempt. Folk sessions would be exempt, as would a jazz trio or solo pianist playing background music in a restaurant. However, I think it is debateable whether the amendments would exempt a pub that made live gigs an advertised feature. So, while falling short of a total exemption for small-scale performance in this type of premises, the amendments would bring the licensing regime very close to the Scottish example for which the MU has been lobbying.

The Government also introduced two of its own amendments that would:
1) limit the potential criminal liability of performers to those organising their own events (Amendment 218, applies to Clause 134), and
2) Amendment 2 (and 3) clarifies, in their view, the following circumstances:
'Amendment No. 2 makes clear in Schedule 1 that for private functions, an individual who simply makes facilities available, but is not concerned with the management or organisation of the entertainment for which the facilities are used, is not to be considered as doing so for a charge.

In practical terms, that means that an individual—perhaps someone who owns or manages an historic house or other suitable venue—will not be subject to the licensing regime simply because he hires out the venue to a third party, perhaps for a wedding or other function, and that third party then chooses to provide regulated entertainment using the venue's facilities unless the person hiring out the room becomes concerned with the organisation and management of the entertainment.'

And '...A private wedding would have to be a rather peculiar wedding to be licensable, anyway. It would have to be open to the general public, and there would have to be an entry charge. I am not aware of any private weddings that do that. So, that would be exempted to start with. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, asked me about band leaders who negotiate with the organisers. They would not be responsible, and the amendments cover that point. '

However, a close reading of Amendments 2 and 3 (which are somewhat convoluted I'm afraid), does not yet, in my unqualified opinion, make it unambiguously clear that private functions are exempt where musicians are closely involved in the organisation of the entertainment and providing a service for which they charge a fee paid for by those being entertained. The Performer-Lawyer Group will no doubt offer an opinion.
Any considered comments welcome.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM

75156 Total Signatures, but it's not the end- we ain't won yet!!


keep right on to the end of the road until ALL the measures are put right: clog,step, morris dancing, rapper & sword displays & mummers do's- not for & for including for charity ! but FOR FUN! & Tradition!!

keep adding your names to both the email petition + the hardcopy one!!

in view of latest govt goal-post moving it's probably best to also add your signature to the hard copy ones.

i'll inform grah dixon of this advice + modify me own hard copy petitions to this end.

[cos i don't trust the lying sneakin evil bastards who're trying to shove thhe new proposals in under joe publics nose while he's bein diverted from whats happenin by weapons of mass distraction & running us all into a big war we don't want either!!!]

Cheer up me boys [& girls] let your hearts never fail!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:40 AM

1. I do hope I speak for everyone when I say well done to Hamish Birchall and the Musicians' Union and thank you to the peers who listened and Stuart Neame for organising the lobby at the House of Lords which may have contributed to the wonderful result in the Lords. So far the applause has not been deafening and it should be. In general only one or two percent of non-government amendments to bills get passed so this is a famous victory - but in a battle and the war is not over yet.

2.   I had circulated a Performer-lawyer group pres release, but it does not seem to be surfacing here so I will past it in below. By my standards it is quite short. Please read it and get ready for the next phase.


"Performer-Lawyer Group
care of: - MacDonald Bridge, Solicitors
Forge House, High Street, Lower Stoke,
Nr. Rochester, Kent ME3 9RD
Tel: 01634 27 27 20 Fax: 01634 27 27 21
Email: McLaw @btinternet.com

PRESS RELEASE
        Date: 24th February 2003

MINISTER DEFEATED ON LICENSING BILL

Government plans to regulate virtually all "entertainment" lay in tatters last night after resounding defeats at the report stage of the Licensing Bill in the House of Lords.

Responding to massive public concern, the Lords proposed that live incidental music should be as free from control as recorded amplified music such as juke boxes, and, specifically, that unamplified live music in places already licensed under the bill (for example to sell alcohol) should not need a local authority licence. Astonishingly the government refused to accept either proposal, but in one of the displays of principle that vindicate a second independent parliamentary chamber, the Lords passed both – and a number of other important amendments.

On the same day the minister displayed his lack of understanding of the points at issue when at a press conference he admitted he did not know what the EFDSS (the key national body representing the folk arts in England) was.

Richard Bridge, administrator of the Performer-Lawyer Group says:

"The overwhelming public view is that the government should not regulate what does not need regulating, and that the public do not trust local authorities to decide when regulations are not needed.   The government has the third reading in the Lords, and the Commons stages, to respond.

If the government is not prepared to accept these changes, this puts the burden firmly on it to come up with proportionate methods, consistent with human rights, for controlling noisy amplified music without destroying other cultural assets.   

Conversely, if the government does decide to live with these changes, or at least the acoustic exemption, then there is much less work left for us to do on this bill. There are forms of music such as jazz, where amplification for some instruments is almost essential, but the risks of noise and disturbance are, realistically, nil. The threat to traditional dance such as Morris dance has not yet been removed. It is not our issue, but traditional pub games such as darts still seem to be under threat."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

This petition had a few mentions in the Lords. A little bit of uncertainty over who was responsoble for it and the number of signatures, but the first two are on our side and can be forgiven.

Lord Redesdale These amendments seek to reintroduce the aspect of proportionality, one of the fundamental principles on which human rights are based. There is a reason for introducing legislation in regard to noise control, but musicians also have a right to stand up and perform.
If there was no problem with that principle musicians would not be worried, but their concern is based on past experience. I particularly welcome the petition raised by the Musicians Union which now contains approximately 75,000 signatures. So a vast number of people in the country believe that the issue needs to be addressed.
[Snip]

Baroness Buscombe: The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, referred to the petition that has received over 70,000 signatures. It was based on words put down in an Early-Day Motion introduced by Her Majesty's Opposition in another place. These amendments respond to an overwhelming lobby from beyond Your Lordships' House. The lobby has listened to and watched the Government. It has seen the Government, and it is determined not to be difficult. But there is no question that the Joint Committee on Human Rights should be listened to and the interests of the musicians heard.
[Snip]

Lord McIntosh of Haringey To ensure that licensees are not put off seeking these authorisations by the fear of disproportionate, inappropriate and expensive conditions being imposed by the local authority, we are working with a group drawn from representatives of performers, the music industry, the licensed trade and local government to inform us in drawing up the relevant sections of the guidance, which will provide clear distinctions about what might and might not constitute appropriate conditions to apply to licences that authorise live music. We have already said that a licence for the provision of entertainment, including live music, can be applied for at the same time as an alcohol licence and that there is no additional charge for it. I am sorry to say that the petition and a lot of the claims made by the Musicians' Union are based on that misconception.

I am informed that the English Folk Dance and Song Society are to part of the group Lord MacIntosh refers to - better (too) late then never. See the thread on that one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM

75,614.......................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:30 AM

Answers to the 20 myths of Dr Howells, in the following thread. It is long, but will provide all the ammunition required for MPs.

MPs replies to your Emails


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM

I have received information from a civil servant in DCMS that busking does not need a licence but a buskers festival does and the organisers could be finded or imprisoned for doing so without a licence. I have sent this e-mail and will copy you in on any reply !


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am grateful for what you say but I find all this rather depressing to say the least.

I know this is current Government Policy and you might not be able to change much but can I put what you say into a real live context.

I live in a Northern City with a Ferry Terminus to Holland. Its not exactly the cultural centre of anywhere but the City Council do put on a two week annual festival and it does liven up the place and attracts tourists.

Each year for the past 10 years I, with dozens of others, have helped organise bits of this. My part has been to provide a music day, theamed differently each year - sometimes celtic, sometimes English, sometimes folk etc. I do this because I have many musicians friends and I play in it but I am the organiser. I claim a small grant from festival funds to pay the expenses of the musicians but not myself.

We usually play either in churches to an audience of about 20 (no problem now or in the future) but more often in the City Square. 000's of people pass through, some stop for a few minutes and the audience in front of the musicians can range from 10 to 50. The music is all acoustic and so probably carries for about 25 yards (we do not play Japanese Drums and I don't know anyone that does!).

So far so good but from next year either the City Council or myself will need a licence. If I apply for an "occasional event licence" I get a form from the council, send it to them with £20. They pay this into their system and I claim it back as a festival expense and they generate a cheque back to me for £20. I get an acknowledgement of the "light touch" notice and carry on exactly as I have done for the last 10 years. I don't know, and doubt if council officials could say, if my audience exceeds 499 - how far out do I count them-how do I get them to stand still to count - how can I refuse them entrance to the City Square if there were already 499 people there?   That apart I don't put up a notice saying in the event of fire ,exit using one of ten streets of the City Square. The square is paved with paving slabs and unlikely to catch fire because of a couple of fiddle players and a mandolin player.

I am trying not to sound facetious but this is a real situation. I am doing a little to brighten up the City and to attract tourists and money. If I don't get this licence I could be fined £20,000 or serve six months. If I do get the licence it makes no difference whatsoever otherwise then to involve a whole lot of extra paperwork and a money go round.   What I will probably do is not bother. Maybe that will make not a jot of difference but I think there may be people up and down the country in the same boat and a lot of life and colour will have disappeared, I think for no good purpose.

As I started I dare say you are driven by political imperatives but I would be grateful if the things I have spoken off could be brought to the attention of those who are driving this?

Regards


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

76,039....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:05 PM

[snip]I have received information from a civil servant in DCMS that busking does not need a licence but a buskers festival does and the organisers could be finded or imprisoned for doing so without a licence. [/snip]I have sent this e-mail and will copy you in on any reply !

With all due respect you are making a simple error here.

That is you are assuming there is some form of logic attached to what is being done.

As you will find out when/if they reply....(15 working days they reckon on) logic flies out the window.........

The DCMS have repatedly insisted that busking will not be made illegal by the Bill. But Kim Howells says 6 japanese drummers will make too much noise in a pub. So they go outside and busk and that;s OK?

From the Sheffield City Giants practice this morning......

At his press conference the Minister admitted to not knowing about the English Folk Dance and Song Society........

The clue is in the name Kim...........(copywrite Alec Brady)


Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:50 AM

76,561..............

The Lords Report Stage continues today and will be dealing with children in pubs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:54 AM

Anne Perkins, political correspondent
Wednesday March 5, 2003
The Guardian


Moves to allow unaccompanied children under 14 into pubs, clubs and bars were thrown out in the Lords last night, as a cross-party alliance dealt the much-defeated licensing bill one last blow.
Despite conciliatory moves by the minister, peers rejected by 73 votes what the government insisted was merely a move to make venues more family friendly.

Tory frontbencher Lady Buscombe - a mother of three teenagers - argued it would put children at risk from the unwanted attention of older men and paedophiles.

She said it was an issue that went beyond politics. "It is about our children and it is about protection of children from harm."

The bill placed "an enormous burden" on publicans who will have to say how they will protect youngsters from harm when they apply for a licence," she added.

She warned that children's charities had told her youngsters may become "intimidated by the behaviour and environment around them, and in the absence of a parental carer there arise many questions about how the licensee can and should respond to them".

She asked how a landlord should respond "to an upset, unaccompanied eight-year-old turning up in a bar at 11pm asking to be served a soft drink".

The culture minister, Lady Blackstone, whose offer to take the proposals back for more discussion to avoid a vote was rejected, said the bill's provisions had already been widely discussed with children's charities and the police. Her suggestion of a meeting today about the clause with children's societies was also rejected.

Earlier, a bid by Kim Howells, the culture media and sport minister, to restore relations with the Musicians' Union, the bill's most outspoken critic, met with partial success.

The MU refused to endorse the bill, which brings in licensing for the first time for single performers and duos with unamplified instruments.

But they agreed to join the panel which will draw up statutory guidelines on the issuing of music licences.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM

In reply to my e-mail - two or three items aboe, I have had an acknowledgement from a civil servant that she will bring it to the attention of the minister. WoW!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM

77,009......................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

77,636................

The MU two in a bar website has now been substantially revised and updated, including a response to the DCMS '20 myths' leaflet:

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/dcms_myths.shtml

A more detailed section about licence fees is also included:

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/mu_opposes01.shtml

(page down to 'Standardised fees alone will not revitalise live music').


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

http://tinyurl.com/5qsh

You should be able to just click on the above (shortened) link to the
Western Morning News. The site can take a little while to load.

They have been running a fine and well-supported local campaign
against the Bill and all the articles can be found on their site above.

Petitions and protest forms from over 10,000 readers will be presented by a special delegation, organised by the WMN, to 10 Downing St on Thursday 13 March.

The presentation will be led by a procession of musicians and landlords and a band has been formed and will perform a specially-composed song protesting about the Bill.

In the WMN 8 March 2003. Hamish Birchall, spokesman for the Musician's Union said: "Such a phenomenal response from the people
of the Westcountry illustrates just how out of touch the Government is with these reforms." "It obviously had no idea that the right to make live music is something people would defend so ferociously."


More details from pandrews@westernmorningnews.co.uk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 02:10 AM

77,877..........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

78,028......................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

This thread is huge and takes some loading. It is however vital. I wonder if it ought to be re cast as this wretched bill gets into the commons....maybe call it Licensing Bill passing through commons, or something wittier?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM

It doesn't take long to load the thread, if you click on the number of posts, rather than on the heading. The posts are arranged in 50s, and you just open up the most recent one. Or click on the asterisk, and it's reversed, with the latest post right up the top. (What slows you down is scrolling past all the blue list of other PEL threads.)

The petition is due to be handed in on 15th - so the question is, will it reach the 80 thousand mark? With 78385 up now it still might.

Here's a link to the KEEP LIVE MUSIC ALIVE forum


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:15 AM

Following from Graham Dixon

Just a few lines to inform you all of the state of play with the petition.

I haven't submitted it yet (it seems to be doing the job where it is.

As well as the 78000+ on line, I have been inundated with hard copies (my postmans got a hernia) there is a pile, about 10 inches high, of A$ sheets all signed.

Interesting point - nice to see that many caring musicians use recycled envelopes.

Although the original date for closing the the petition was 15th March - I am going to let it run a bit longer - Hamish has done a mailout of 30000+ leaflets which should attract more signatures

Meanwhile thankyou all for your support

KEEP MUSIC LIVE

Graham Dixon


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM

79,039.....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:47 PM

79,236..........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:56 PM

The Lords say no to kids in pubs. Link to The publican

http://www.thepublican.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=8919&d=32&h=24&f=23&dateformat=%25o%20%25B%20%25Y


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM

One interesting thing is that whhen the Lortds passed the "small premises" amendment, the Government Chief Whip, Lord McIntosh, starting raging on the BBC: 'They have voted for eight-year-olds to watch the unexpurgated Texas Chainsaw Massacre.'

Which of course could only happen if they overthrew this previous amendment about kids in pubs. (And, of course, if they put on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre instead of football, which would seem a pretty good way to clear the bar.)

79235 (going backwards!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 04:06 AM

Hi Magrath.

The problem with the small premises amendment is that it does not apply only to premises otherwise licensed, so the gov't is right that anyone could hire a hall and show pretty well anything (so long as it did not infringe the Obscene Publications Act, the Race Realtions Act, etc, etc) to anyone. Slight drafting hiccup, I think, is all (not my drafting). Perhaps it should only have applied to music and dance, but even there I think there is a problem with noise and public disturbance. These things are a balance between Article 8 human rights (respect for privacy and family life (and therefore homes)) and Article 10 (freedom of expression)

The mirror of it is however that movie companies have for decades been working on a plan to link cinemas by satellite to avoid the need to make and deliver expensive prints - and if they do finally get it together there is a real risk (it depends on the exact facts and the aplication of soem tricky definitions in the Broadcasting Act 1990) that the "broadcasting exemption" as it is now drawn (government drafting) will prevent imposition of BBFC classifications there to - in short, 8 year olds will (may) be able to watch whatever there too!!

BTW the effec t of teh bill on darts is in the SUnday Express, page 28.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 04:33 PM

The Sunday Express article about the end of darts may bring in more powerful ammunition against this squalid bill so for musicians may be a good thing?

I also wonder, if landlords are all going to have to follow Howells instruction and tick the box on regulated entertainment, why they should not all do that - it will bring local authority jobsworth to their knees surely?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Perhaps someone should ask Dr Howells, if the application is so easy and simply a matter of a tick in a box, why a box should have to be ticked at all?

79,346............................

From Graham Dixon, on the E Petition site.

The success of this petition has already contributed to major changes in the UK Government's Licensing Bill. As originally published in November 2002, the Bill would have made almost all public performance of music or dance in England and Wales a criminal offence unless first licensed by local authorities. The Government said the increased licensing controls were necessary for public safety and noise reasons.

But since this petition was started in December 2002, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has found that a) the licensing regime could violate people's right to 'freedom of expression', and b) that the Government has provided no evidence, as the law requires, of any 'pressing social need' to justify the increased licensing controls.

The Government has responded with a number of concessions. Places of public worship will not now need a license to put on entertainment performances of any kind; garden fetes and private events raising money for charity will also be exempt.

On 11 March the Government said it would accept 'the principle that incidental live music should be exempt'. This is welcome. However, it remains the case that no license is required under this Bill for crowds to watch big screens or listen to juke boxes in any place with a powerful sound system; but an advertised performance by one un-amplified musician would be illegal, unless the premises was first licensed for live music. This applies irrespective of whether alcohol is sold.

The same would apply to any unlicensed performance of dance, whether indoors or outdoors. The provision of 'entertainment facilities', such as a piano, whether for public entertainment or private entertainment for profit, also remains a criminal offence unless licensed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

But the present law remains dreadful - see Music Police raid the Sloop at Barton, Lincs


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:57 AM

Please circulate

On Monday (24 March) MPs will debate the Licensing Bill for the first time. If you support the idea of an exemption (or automatic permission) for small-scale gigs, please fax your MP now (suggested text at the end of this message): www.faxyourmp.com. The site automatically identifies MPs from post codes.

The Government will strongly resist the small events exemption won by Opposition Peers on 11 March. This exemption would allow entertainment up to 11.30pm, no more than 250 attending at any one time. The Government's probable line of attack was disclosed in this week's Stage newspaper: '[the exemption] would put children at risk and cause misery for local residents. It wholly ignores fire and safety and crime prevention. Just because there are fewer people doesn't mean there is less risk as there are fewer injuries and deaths.' [quote by spokeswoman for the Department for Culture, The Stage, 20 March 2003, p5]

Ominous stuff. It doesn't explain, of course, how the risk of injury and death is addressed for crowds (children or adults) jumping up and down in front of big screen (or radio) broadcasts and a powerful PA in any place and at any time - no licence is required under the Licensing Bill for this entertainment. It doesn't explain why jukeboxes should be exempt, no matter how powerfully amplified, or that the UK Noise Association says noise complaints from recorded music are greater than those from live music.

Trailing cables, or blocked fire exits - examples put forward by the Government in defence of licensing - could lead to criminal prosecution under separate health and safety legislation. Employers and the self-employed have statutory duties to make risk assessments of their work activities that take into account any risk to employees and other members of the public who may be affected. Failure to do so can lead to criminal prosecution under safety legislation. The police can close noisy or unruly pubs immediately for up to 24 hours. Local authorities can seize noisy equipment immediately, or serve anticipatory £20,000 noise abatement notices.

The Stage also reported that Government will consider 'very carefully' an exemption for 'incidental' live music. But this is unlikely to cover advertised, featured entertainments, even by one unamplified performer in a small bar. A suggested text for your message follows:

Dear MP

Licensing Bill 2nd Reading 24 March 2003 - small events exemption (Sch 1, para 12)

I write to ask that you support the exemption above as it relates to live music. If the Government can allow crowds to jump up and down in front of big screens and a powerful PA at any time and in any place without a licence under this Bill, surely it is possible to allow live music up to 11.30pm, restricting attendance to 250 at any one time?

While the Government's acceptance that 'incidental' live music should be exempt is welcome, it is likely that this would not cover advertised or featured performances, even by one unamplified musician. Under the existing regime, over 100,000 pubs, bars, restaurants and clubs in England and Wales that do not hold public entertainment licences can provide such performances by one or two musicians. This automatic right would be lost under the new regime, even allowing for an incidental live music exemption.

The Government has failed to satisfy the Joint Committee on Human Rights that the Licensing Bill is a proportionate response to a pressing social need to control live music. The Committee also concluded: 'there is a significant risk that the blanket licensing regime proposed in the Bill would give rise to an incompatibility with people's right to freedom of expression under ECHR Article 10, even in the light of the Government's announcement on 3 February [churches exemption] mentioned in paragraph 18, above.' [Scrutiny of Bills - Further Progress Report, Fourth Report of Session 2002-03, HL Paper 50, HC 397, 10 February 2003].

If you cannot support the small events exemption as it would apply to a performance of live music in a restaurant or bar, I would ask that you explain where subsisting public safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation is deficient, such that licensing control for live music is the only solution.

Yours etc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:43 PM

What does "incidental" mean in this context, and what doesn't it mean?

"Incidental music" already has an established meaning - "music written for atmospheric effect or to accompany the action in a play". I imagine it is supposed to have some other meaning in the context of the bill - what what precisely is that?

And is there any information about the Government's intentions as regards the amendment the Lords passed exempting unamplified music?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM

On Govt intention on exempting unamplified music, I have a note that they are "considering" it. At least thus far they have not given reasons to oppose it...except the earlier nonesense about 6 Japanese Drummers! What a problem they are, banging their way about the country from pub to pub. I work in the law and I have read this amendment again and again but can't make sense of it. It seems to be incidental to something that needs a licence, like making music. Does this mean that making music if it is incidental to making music is not licensable but the prime making music is?

What a mad world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM

I suppose it might mean that if the music is going on but people aren't listening to it, that might mean it was legal...

A bit like what was reported recently, where some Irish Dancers practising (in England of course) stuck up a notice asking people not to watch them, because if they did, that would make it an illegal performance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:11 AM

The example the Government's side in the Lords gave was 'music in a lift'. So any 'recorded' background music of this nature, will be exempt.

How this will work when/if extended to live music, is anyone's guess. I pretty sure if it is left to our civil srevants, it will be of no practical use to anyone.

Which it why it is so important to inform and pressure our MPs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:13 AM

I wonder how the Government intends to inform licensees about the music tick box. Pretty important tick this? Ought sessions players to be talking direct to landlords. Some landlords are great (see support from Sloop Lanloard - music police raid sloop session - but there is a general message that ought to be broadcast far and wide and that is tick every box going, darts, music, etc because if you dont doing it later is costly and difficult.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

So we can have sessions in lifts? But isn't a lift a moving vehicle anyway and therefore exempt? I suppose it depends what you mean by moving.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:12 PM

As the war in Iraq semms to be going badly I wonder if the cannon fooder Labour MP's are getting nervous? I wonder if more might object to Howells nonsense if they thought there was a healthy weight of public opinion against it?

Whatever bilge Howells has tried to fob them off with, one thing stands out from his latest epistle that might make them think. It is that he agrees that whilst an antique piano might not need a licence if kept locked, it would it it were played to entertain either the people in the pub or the player.

This is one of the more extreme matters that the bill includes. If MP's cottened on only to that they might be wary of other matters. Try fax your MP again. It wasn't working yesterday but might today. Tell them Howells admits this but much else that he says is flannel, almost as if he hasn't read his own bill. Ask them to consider all in the light of this bit about pub pianos!

If only 10% of theose who had signed the petition faxed their MP, that would be about 10,000 faxes which is 20 each to each MP if my dubious maths is correct.

May just have an effect. please try.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM

Trouble is, you can only fax your own MP, and I doubt if we're distributed neatly around all the consituencies.

But it'd still be worth doing, even if some lucky MPs were deluged with faxes, and others had to sit around twiddling their thumbs and wondering why noone loved them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM

The petition was supposed to be submitted on the 15th of March.

Was it?

The government's petition site (which has moved since Shambles first message and is now here) has no mention of it.

If it was, I'd be interested to know what the final number was. I'd presume that the (at my guess 2%) of entries that didn't fit the government's criteria were edited out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:06 PM

80,036.................

We are only going to get this one chance......For MP's emails click the following.

http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hciolists/alms.cfm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 09:01 AM

See Editors note. The petitions there are tiny. Where is ours with tens of thousands. Can someone get it moved to the new site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM

From Hamish Birchell

For circulation



The following update will repalce the 'Latest News' section on the MU two in a bar site tomorrow:



During yesterday's (24 March) first Commons debate of the Licensing Bill, Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell announced that the Government would accept the Opposition Peers' amendments for a licensing exemption for schools and sixth form colleges. She also accepted their exemption for 'incidental' live music. However, she indicated that the Government would seek to overturn the small events exemption.



The full debate can be downloaded from Hansard online:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/cm030324/debtext/30324-14.htm#30324-14_head0



The Bill will now enter the Committee stage in the Commons, the first of these being Tuesday 1 April. About 20-30 MPs will sit on this Committee, and the proportion from each Party will reflect the make-up of the House of Commons. Government and Opposition Whips choose the MPs to sit. This phase of the Bill's passage through Parliament must be completed by 20 May. Report and 3rd Reading follow, probably on the same day. The Bill will then go back to the Lords (if the Government has amended the Lords amendments, as is very likely). Once the Lords have considered the Government's amendments, and either introduced further amendments, or reintroduced their ealier amendments, the Bill is returned to the Commons. The Government are still aiming for Royal Assent in July.




During yesterday's debate the Culture Secretary again claimed that the Musicians' Union had misrepresented the Bill:



'I would like to pay tribute to the Musicians Union, which has certainly won the Oscar for the best spin on this matter. I say that with unbounded admiration, rather than acrimony. The union has misrepresented the position with great success, and, in doing so, greatly raised the profile of live music.'



Conservative Shadow Culture Secretary, John Whittingdale, defended the Union:



'... despite assurances to the contrary, fears remain that the Bill may well cover many events such as wedding receptions, private parties, the demonstration of musical instruments, the provision of rehearsal rooms, even carol singing—and, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen), wassailing. The Minister has sought to dismiss such claims as scare-mongering and a "pernicious lying campaign" by the Musicians Union. I am glad to note that he [Kim Howells] recognises his own words. But while he may give assurances that the Bill does not cover such events, a large body of legal opinion has advised the Musicians Union and others that it will have exactly those effects. We are pleased that the Government have now said that they are prepared to sit down with the Musicians Union and others whom the Bill will affect and look at it again. I hope that that will lead to further Government amendments to prevent any possible doubt that the Minister's assurances are supported by the Bill, but if they are not forthcoming, we will not hesitate to table our own amendments.'



Mr Whittingdale also said that having consulted 30 licensees in his constituency on whether they would 'tick the box' to obtain a public entertainment licence, none said that they would. Worryingly, a similar reaction was reported by Liberal Democrat Shadow Culture Minister, Nick Harvey.



Mr Whittingdale also commented on the exemption for broadcast entertainment: 'On the point that the Government seem to consider that live performance poses such dangers that it requires a licence, whereas the televised screening of a soccer match or a concert poses no dangers, the Minister [Kim Howells] said on Radio 1 a couple of months ago that in 14 years as an MP he had never received a complaint about a folk group or anybody else playing acoustic music, but that he had had lots of complaints about loud televisions and loud piped music. It therefore seems extraordinary that he proposes to regulate the former but to exempt the latter.'



Mr Whittingdale added that the Conservatives would defend their small events exemption amendment in the Lords if the Government overturned it in the Commons.



Several other MPs spoke in favour of live music and the small events exemption, including David Heath (Lib Dem, Somerton & Frome), and Bob Blizzard (Lab, Waveney).



Mr Blizzard said: 'Small, live venues are a serious issue if we are to avoid that monoculture of mass entertainment...'. He added: 'I am very pleased with the idea behind the Lords amendment that grants exemption to live music at small events and premises up to 11.30 pm, as it is an attempt to deal with the issue. If I understand why my hon. Friend cannot support that measure, I hope that he will find an alternative way forward that satisfies the concerns of those small premises. I hope not only that he will meet the Musicians Union, but that he will be willing to receive a delegation from the all-party jazz appreciation group in the House to work through some of those issues.'



David Heath said: 'All acoustic performances should be exempt from the provisions, as they are not capable of causing the nuisance that the Bill attempts to remedy. Whether we limit numbers or types of performance is a matter of opinion, but there should be a threshold below which the full licensing provisions do not apply. We need to examine the transitional arrangements, as well as the licence variations, which are a significant barrier. If a licensee does not initially apply for an entertainment licence but wants one at a later stage, it could prove too costly for them to countenance and we could thus eventually see a contraction in the number of live venues. I genuinely believe that the Government are listening to some of the points that have been made. Some of us have been accused of scaremongering, but any scares that I have mongered were manufactured in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. The more that the Minister can allay fear by changing the precise terms of the Bill and by what he includes in the regulations and guidance, the more he will receive my support. The measure would then be genuinely deregulatory. I commend the Minister on listening, but I am worried that there will be backsliding from the position established in another place.'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM

80,257...........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:22 AM

I have written at length to all the committee MPs and the Joint Committe on Human Rights.

I don't know if it'll get put up on does4you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:21 AM

The following from Graham Dixon.

Hello everyone

The petition now has over 80000 (eighty thousand) online signatures and I have an ever increasing pile of hard copies (A4s over a foot high). [80,439........]

The original intention was to close the petition on 15th March and deliver before the end of the month. However I feel that the opportunity for maximum publicity would be compromised (what with the war et al) if it was delivered now.

That, coupled with the fact that the Musicians Union have embarked on an intensive leafleting campaign, has led me to believe that I should keep it open for a little while longer.

Hamish Birchall (MU) has his finger on the pulse as far as a dates for
maximum impact will be - the petition will be delivered then. It seems to be working well anyway with mentions in both houses, national press & TV/Radio.

If you would like to sign and haven't already done so please go to
www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Thanks everyone for all their support,

Please copy and paste this to any musical forums that you use.

--
Regards
Graham Dixon
Too old to Rock & Roll
Too young to die
Drop the bomb to reply
http://www.btinternet.com/~troubleatmill


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

That makes sense - the war's knocking everything out of the media these days, understandably. Mind you the way things are going this war is going to be going on a long time aftewr this bill has run its course. But I imagine it'll get downgraded in News terms well before then, unless the bombs start going off in London.

May Day (real or the Bank Holiday phony May Day) could be the right kind of time to organise a handing in - except that's not a good day to get folkies along.

But how about St George's Day (also Shakespeare's Birthday) on April 23rd? That might help get it some media attention.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM

Sorry to return to this wretched subject but the Commons Amendments are


To: actionformusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [actionformusic] Common's Amendments


Amendments for the Common's Standing Committee.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmbills/073/amend/cmam073.htm

Its long and tortuous but important. Not yet worked out what all these amendments mean because they are separate from the Bill on this web site.

Search UK Parliament - Bills will find it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:12 AM

Have done further work on Commons amendments. I note that Suddam Hussain of the music world, Kim Howells is on the Commons Scrutiny Committee and so far his contribution has been to suggest deletion of the three clauses from the Lords that gave hope, that is the small premises excemption, the acoustic music exemption and the music associated with another event exemption. Oh and martial arts has been added to the need a licence list. And playing of live music largely becomes performance of live music. and at another live music is removed but later added together with dance as needing a licence.

I hope Howells is forever remembered as the man who tried to kill off the culture of live music from the Department of Culture AND HE FAILS!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:20 AM

What is the significance of the changes to 'performance' of music from 'playing'? I suspect we need a Richard Bridge-alike to tell us the legal implications of this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM

Chris Bates wrote on another list:

Mike Harding's prog on Radio 2 on April 9 will see a showdown between Billy Bragg and Eliza Carthy versus Kim Howells, the government minister responsible for the changes to UK licensing laws.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:03 AM

Have now applied the amendments to the bill as it comes from the Lords

Some of the amendments do not make sense and conflict with others but
in the main provisions one amendment changes "regulated entertainment" to "premises for public gatherings".
Another removes Schedule 1 (the dreaded "entertainment" schedule - Well done Andew Turner MP but doubt if this will hold)
Another removes enterainment Facilites from licensing (handled by Tory Lead on this Malcolm Moss MP.
Many changes to list of entertainments, adding martial arts to boxing and comedy not a play
Playing of live music becomes perforamnce of live music (don't understand this) - its from Kim Howells so bound to be dodgy!
Howells seeks to strike out the entire amendments from the Lords on unamplified music incidental to other matters (fearing Japanese Drummers at Morris Dancing no doubt) and also seeks to strike out all the small premises exemptions.
Others seek to limit this to 200 (not 250) and to make sure the entertainment is within a building and not outside
Another attempt to exempt schools and educational establishment providing there is a direct connection between the entertainment and the establishment (presumably school concerts ok but not visiting meetings of pipers etc).

I gather that whatever is agreed or not goes to the Commons for a vote, but only on the amendments. The bill then is returned to the lords who by tradition, only deal with amendments.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM

Please read the debate below.   It is very important to us all. See also extract in next thread

Subj: Howells ditches small events exemption and makes a patronising comment about Irish culture
Date: 02/04/2003 19:52:44 GMT Standard Time
From: hab.drum@virgin.net
To: hab.drum@virgin.net
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Please circulate

In the Licensing Bill's first Committee debate yesterday (01 April), Culture Minister Kim Howells rejected the small events exemption and got it voted out of the Bill. Even Labour MPs on the Committee who supported the exemption (or their own slightly altered version) voted with the Whip. Read the debate:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmstand/d/cmlicen.htm

However, the Minister promoted the Government's change of heart over the 'incidental' exemption for live music. He offered a definition of 'incidental', conceding that it was not entirely clear. He seemed to think its interpretation should be at local authority discretion:
Dr. Howells: 'I will have a pop at a definition for the hon. Gentleman. Incidental live music is music that does not form part of the main attraction for visitors to a premises. Examples might include a piano played in the background in a restaurant, or carol singers in a shopping centre. However, if a band in a pub was advertised to draw in customers, or live music was played so loud that it could not possibly be regarded as incidental to another activity, it would be unlikely to benefit from the exemption. To clarify the matter further, we would expect the licensing authority to exercise this discretion as it currently does in regard to public entertainment licensing.'

And later: '...If the entertainment is advertised and the purpose of the music is to draw in customers and to make a profit for the business, that has a direct bearing on the business and it would be difficult to describe it as incidental...' And: '... There might be a clear attempt by the holder of a licence to draw people into his premises by advertising the music that will be played. On the other hand, I occasionally get invited to some posh restaurants—it is one of the perks of my job, and perhaps at some time in the middle of this century the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire will be invited to them himself—and there is a restaurant nearby where a good pianist plays jazz standards through the course of the evening. That music is incidental; it is tucked away in the corner.'

So it looks like the Government agrees that advertised gigs are unlikely to be covered by the incidental exemption.

Conservative, Lib Dem and supportive Labour MPs (notably Bob Blizzard and Jim Knight), argued around all the live music issues very effectively. But this didn't stop most amendments being withdrawn. Towards the end of the afternoon, Conservative Malcolm Moss expressed his disappointment at Howells' position over the small events exemption. This is when the Culture Minister made one of his famously unguarded comments:

Mr Moss:.... The Government are trying to squash the whole edifice under their heavy boot, simply because one or two things may cause problems. We should look at the issue from a completely different angle and try to support the arts and culture, particularly music. What do they do in Ireland I wonder? Why is it so vibrant there? I do not suppose that they have all this legislation over there.

Dr. Howells: I do not think that Ireland is a particularly good comparison. We have a very vibrant cultural industry in this country. We are the second largest exporter of culture in the world. Ireland is a country of 3.5 million people. It does not even begin to compare with this country's great cultural life. The Irish are extraordinarily good at advertising Ireland as a home that is full of fiddlers and dancers. Good luck to them, they are a very inventive people.

* * *

In the same debate Howells also said:

'...I turn to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset. Incidentally, since we may consider some of the human rights issues later, the seventh report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights welcomed the changes that have been made as a reaction to its concerns and to those that were raised by my hon. Friend in that Committee's fourth report. It has raised no further concerns in relation to article 10 on freedom of expression. I am sure that my hon. Friend will welcome that.'

He is wrong. The Seventh Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights welcomed the Government amendment to Clause 134 (which now limits the potential criminal liability of musicians to those organising their own events), but added:

'As we noted in our Fourth Report, the Government intends that certain venues would be exempt from the licensing requirements, and some others would be exempt from the fees normally chargeable for entertainment venues. While the proposals would made the licensing regime more responsive to the requirements of ECHR Article 10, exempting (for example) places of worship but not secular venues from the licensing regime might give rise to discrimination and threaten a violation of the right to be free from discrimination under ECHR Article 14 taken together with Article 9 (the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion) and Article 10 (freedom of expression). We draw this risk to the attention of each House, and we might wish to report further on it when we have had an opportunity to consider carefully the terms of the Government's proposed amendments to the Bill.' [para 35, 'Scrutiny of Bills: Further Progress Report, Seventh Report of Session 2002-03', HL Paper 74, HC 547, published 21 March 2003]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM

Here is an extract from the debate. DOes this impress or save "sess

Dr. Howells: If it will help the Committee, I am willing to be intervened on on this issue.
I am not sure that I share the unease of some Opposition Members. If the entertainment is advertised and the purpose of the music is to draw in customers and to make a profit for the business, that has a direct bearing on the business and it would be difficult to describe it as incidental. On the other hand, the hon. Member for North Devon gave us an illustration. He goes to a pub on a Sunday where a jazz quartet plays in the corner: as there are not merely two players, it will have to have a licence. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. We have another example of a pub that is not properly licensed. If it is a quartet, it will already have a licence. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman meant to say that it was just a duo? He nods his head. In that case, it is two in a bar, and they do not need a licence.
I have tried to describe a distinction to the Committee. There might be a clear attempt by the holder of a licence to draw people into his premises by advertising the music that will be played. On the other hand, I occasionally get invited to some posh restaurants—it is one of the perks of my job, and perhaps at some time in the middle of this century the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire will be invited to them himself—and there is a restaurant nearby where a good pianist plays jazz standards
Column Number: 070
through the course of the evening. That music is incidental; it is tucked away in the corner. However, the hon. Member for North Devon is right that this distinction is not clear.
I would have thought that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire would be pleased with us because we have given the licensing authority the opportunity to use its common sense when it comes to defining what sort of music that is. I have made some suggestions about how it is possible to differentiate between what is incidental and what is the main attraction, and I used advertising as one example. I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be pleased to realise that some of the music played in a licensed premises could be described as incidental.
Jim Knight: I would not have become interested in the subject if it were not for Roger Gall, a constituent of mine, who lives on Portland, where there is a folk jamming session on a Friday night in a pub called the Cone House Inn. It became known that the landlord was comfortable with people coming along on a Friday night and playing their music. These sessions were not advertised. Such an event, which is not advertised or actively encouraged, may be a passive part of the atmosphere of the pub, and it may begin to build up business and become a substantial attraction and profit maker for the publican. Would the Minister regard such an activity as one that should be regulated under the Bill?
Dr. Howells: It seems that that is largely a spontaneous activity, to which people turn up occasionally, and it seems also that the word has spread that people can hear some nice music. However, as the hon. Gentleman says, the licensee does not spend money on advertising. If it is clear that music is being played in the corner of the pub, that would be incidental in my book. I do not know whether that gives him any comfort.
Often, if it is intended that the everyday meaning of a term be used in legislation, it must be judged commensurate to the circumstances of each case. I know that that has drawn some guffaws from Opposition Members, but I hope that the combination of the term ''incidental'' and the explanation that I have tried to give, taken together with the guidance that the Department will issue, will be sufficient to ensure that licensing authorities give due consideration to whatever music is being performed.
ions"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

Local authorities cannot define "incidental". If parliament does not do so the courts must construe the word.

I am not sure that "playing " to "Performance" is a distinction of significance. It will I think help those who argue that those playing PURELY for their own pleasure are not restricted, but for those who remember their Virgil from school "timeo danaos et dona ferentes" (I fear greeks even when they are bearing gifts - which turned out to be the Trojan Horse of fame)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:23 PM

"To clarify the matter further, we would expect the licensing authority to exercise this discretion as it currently does in regard to public entertainment licensing.'"

What the hell does that mean? I seem to remember that, under pressure from the Shambles, Weybridge Council went on record as saying that their legal section instructed them that they don't have any discretion in regard to public entertainment licensing.

From what Howells says it sounds as if, so long as other people are enjoying what they hear enough to come to hear it, rather than go somewhere else or stay at home, it won't make any difference if the players are making the music for their own enjoyment, it won't count as "incidental".

Assuming the MPs crawl into the lobby they are told to, we have to hope that the Lords dig their heels in and insist on the important amendments, leaving the Government with the choice between giving in and dropping the whole Bill, and starting all over again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:43 PM

Having been sad enught to read all of the standing committees debate much of what Howells says reminds me of a quote from "Oh Brother, where art though?".   It is "They have a plan but not a clue".

There was much said in the debate about geriatric counsel members with ideas that life is best when everyone sites at home in front of the box, strapped into their seats, with a crash helmet on in case the ceiling comes down! The "magic" tick the box was regarded with scorn. The other night I was playing at a session of about 8 musicians - pleasant evening, no trouble of course, no interference with anyone. But licensing needed. Last night I had the misfortune to be out in a city centre scene. Communication, other than sine language was impossible over the 140 db piped music, people were sick, fights broke out in pubs and streets.   No licence needed.

What the hell sort of world does Howells live in. I wonder if he would accept an invite to attend a folk session, leading on to club land? I would pay his entry fee to a club, if I could find one that would let him in!

I think his boss, Tessa Jowells is slightly more sympathetic, but Blair and co are too busy killing Iraq's or raising taxes to care.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

There is likely to be a major cabinet re-shuffle in June, July. Suggestions for Howells on a postcard please to Tony..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:13 AM

81,040..........

The ex Taliban Culture Minister is looking for a job.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 02:17 PM

I think he is a bit extreme for the Taliban.

Work is continuing on draft clauses for the report stage of the Commons and with one eye to the Lords, on acoustic exemptions and on saving Morris etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 04:53 PM

Please circulate

Last Thursday, 03 April, the Commons Licensing Bill Committee concluded its debate of Schedule 1 that deals with definitions and exemptions for 'regulated entertainment' and 'entertainment facilities'. As predicted, Culture Minister Kim Howells and fellow Labour MPs on the Committee have voted to remove the Opposition Peers' exemption for educational establishments (paragraph 14). The Committee now moves on to other parts of the Bill, a process that must be finished by 20 May.

Given that the Government can simply reverse anything the Lords have changed, people understandably ask: 'what is the point of continuing to lobby MPs?'. This circular attempts to explain why it is not just important but essential to continue lobbying MPs, particularly Labour and Liberal Democrat MPs. Part of the reason is that the show-down, if you like, is yet to come. The other part concerns Parliamentary process, and how this can work in our favour with the Licensing Bill.

Schedule 1 will not be debated again until the entire Bill as amended by the Committee receives its Report/3rd Reading in the Commons. Unlike the Lords, Report and 3rd Reading debates will be on the same day, back to back. The precise date has yet to be fixed, but is likely to be some time in the fortnight commencing 2nd June. Further amendments can be put at Report stage, but these will be limited in number, and for that reason carefully chosen. More on that later.

It suprised me that a Commons Committee of only 16 MPs can change an entire Bill, but that is the way the process works. The Committee votes on amendments of their own, and these can be put down by any of the MPs on the Committee. The composition of the Committee reflects the proportion of MPs by Party: 10 Labour, 4 Conservative, and 2 Lib Dem. So if the Labour MPs vote with the Whip, i.e. they toe the Party line, then the Government can do what it likes to the Bill at this stage. That is what is happening at the moment.

However, if Committee amendments change or reverse amendments that were introduced by the House of Lords, that has to be approved by the Lords. So once the Bill completes Report/3rd Reading, it goes back to the Lords. At that point the Lords may reintroduce Clauses they originally inserted but which were subsequently removed in the Commons, or amend any or all of the Clauses they first amended, but which were changed again by the Commons. The Bill must then return to the Commons, the idea being that the Bill cannot become law until its content is agreed by both Houses.

The Conservatives have promised to revisit the small events exemption when the Bill goes back to the Lords. Provided the Lib Dems support the Conservatives (as they did when that particular amendment was voted through on 11 March), there is a serious risk that the Government's timetable will be delayed. The Conservatives and Liberal Democrat Peers combined outnumber the Government in the Lords. Opposition Lords could therefore start a game of 'ping pong' between the two Houses.

Now comes the crucial bit: the Government cannot force the Bill through using the Parliament Act. For some reason I don't fully understand, Bills that have been introduced in the Lords are immune from the Parliament Act - only Bills introduced in the Commons can be forced through by that means. The Government are extremely anxious for the Bill to receive Royal Assent by July. So it is entirely possible that, faced with a solid opposition in the Lords, they might make a concession on the entertainment licensing side. So we are definitely still in with a chance of the Lords amendments on small events and educational establishments, or variations of these amendments.

It is also possible that a version of these amendments will be introduced by Opposition MPs during Report/3rd Reading in the Commons, before the Bill goes back to the Lords. Not all Labour MPs are against the ideas in principle by any means: indeed both Bob Blizzard and Jim Knight have argued in favour of some kind of exemption.

Public pressure will determine to a great extent whether Labour MPs are receptive to the arguments for a 'de minimis' exemption permitting a limited amount of entertainment/live music before entertainment licensing kicks in. That is why it is extremely important for the MU and musicians to keep lobbying and talking to their constituency MPs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

Now that Kim Ill Sung Howells has ordered the mindless to vote his way in the Commons we are left with the faint hope that the Lords will play up - I am not really sure that they will because this is not a subject of great passion to them. The Lawyers performing group is trying for the report stage to get some amendments but things don't look too good. It is looking as if it is essential to pursuade your local licensee to fill in the entertainment tick box on his pub business plan (and that it will not cost him dear). Looks like Morris etc will need a licence in the form of a special event notification and £20.

Remind you local prospective councillors if you see one before the May elections. I plan to insert the long drone on my Ulliean pipes where the sun don't shine if one appears at my door.

You might be interested to know how little democracy there is. On the licensing bill the Lords passed 9 amendments, all good stuff. The commons set up a standing committee to look at this. The committee consisted of 16 people, 10 labour, 4 conservative and 2 Lib Dems. Voting was whipped and so all amendments were lost. Howells just said "withdraw the amendments", with no reason and the labour lot geniflected before him. The Lords could re visit this but only if they are up to a constitutional fight and since most of the hireditary peirs have gone, not likely to. So 16 men decide our fate!. I wonder if Howells can be brought to book when the 5% of pubs with a PEL is reduced to 2% and live music becomes a real rarity?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM

The above is a rather gloomy summary but sadly just about the way it is. But while there is life there is still some hope. We are not quite beaten yet.

81,283................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 11:58 AM

From Hamish

Please circulate

I must apologise for a misunderstanding on my part concerning the Government's intentions for private events that provide 'regulated entertainment' in order to raise money for good causes. I thought the Government had amended the Bill to ensure they were not caught. This is not the case. The Government intends that these events will be illegal unless licensed, except where the intention is simply to recover costs. The MU website will be updated accordingly as soon as possible.

When the Bill was in the Lords, the Government withdrew the Bill's sub-paragraph that defined 'with a view to profit' as including 'any case where that entertainment is, or those [entertainment] facilities are, provided with a view to raising money for the benefit of a charity. However, this did not alter the section of the Bill that renders private events licensable where regulated entertainment is provided if the event is 'for consideration and with a view to profit'.

At last week's first meeting of the new music advisory group for the DCMS, clarification on this subject was sought from Andrew Cunningham, who chaired the meeting. His explanation went something like this: if people sold tickets for a private event with the intention of making a profit or surplus (even if this is for a charity or good cause), then the event is licensable. However, if people were not charged with the intention to make a profit, i.e. they were simply asked to chuck some cash in a bucket if they felt like it, then the event would not be licensable.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

I wonder if anyone knows President Bush well. He is good at overturning represssive Governments. Maybe if he told Tony that musicians in the UK were being oppressed, Tony would read the Licensing Bill for the first time and do something about his Minister of Cultural Repression. Or maybe the Abrams Tanks could land in the centre of London and go straight into action. And Howells and co could then go off to join the Taliban and continue their campaign with them to kill entertainment!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 03:16 AM

81,513........................

It remains vital that our MPs are informed of exactly what passing this Bill will mean for live music. If the Government gamble pays off and more than the current figure of 5% of licensed premises take up the entertainment element, this will be terrible in principle but may not prove be too bad in practice.

However, if licensees do not take up the entertainment element, it will be a disaster. But is it a gamble worth taking, given that there is so little to win and so much to lose?

http://www.faxyourmp.com/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 02:32 PM

This from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate


Anyone concerned about the Licensing Bill can now lobby their MP and local press directly from the Musicians' Union website:
http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/welcome.shtml

In addition to a pre-prepared text that can be sent automatically to your MP and the press, the site is running a Poll and a new petition highlighting the findings of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

Like 'faxyourmp.com' the MU site automatically identifies MPs from post codes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 02:42 PM

Could someone let me know when it is intended to submit the petition please?

I've be interested to read the government's response to it.

Thanks,

Ed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:29 AM

81,862...............


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:17 PM

82,086.................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:22 AM

I have pretty well finalised a "flier" for Rochester Sweeps Fest. It features a short summary and a "fill in the blanks" letter to send to MPs - hitting them while the bill is still in the Commons. The Morris chaps will be using it at other impending festivals.

Alas I cannot get any funding from the usual suspects to get it photocopied and am unable to fund this myself by-and-large, although I will somehow get a few hundred together.

A few people have offered to copy a few hundred each and send or post them to me to arrive by Friday this week. Thanks to them.

If anyone here can do likewise please PM or email me and I will send over the "word" document by email.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:27 PM

FOLK ILLEGAL UNLESS LICENSED

The Government still plans to make virtually ALL folk dance and folk music illegal without a local authority licence. Government propaganda and letters are not the whole truth. Write to your MP NOW. A letter is on the back. Please address it to your MP from you, sign it and send it.

The Licensing Bill is in the House of Commons NOW. A licence will be demanded for ANY live music or dance or drama (with few exceptions), in any place made available for the purpose – if it is to entertain any audience, or even if just for the enjoyment of musicians or dancers. This applies if the entertainment is public, OR in a private club, OR if any charge is made (not just an entry charge) by any organiser to anyone entertained. It will apply to Morris and other folk dance, even in the open air, possibly even in the street. It will apply to mumming and wassailing. It will apply to even one unamplified singer or player.

The licence fee may be about £500. An application at the same time as for a liquor licence will be no extra. The local authority will lay down conditions to protect the public interest anyway– and we all know what that means. "Temporary event notices" will be cheaper but these are restricted. The government says this will make it EASIER to present live events!! But at present performances in private clubs, one or two musicians in pubs, and dance in the open air outside London are not restricted.

The government says fire exits might be blocked or capacity limits needed (what, in the open air?) or dangerous stages or wires used (all covered by other laws): so licensing is essential, even if no amplifiers are used!! This is madness.

But big-screen TVs, and "incidental" music (in practice juke boxes and DJs without dancing) will be exempt, and will not need a licence, no matter how loud. Nor will they be subjected to "conditions" (like soundproofing or new lavatories or air conditioning, or obligatory bouncers) at the pub's expense. And the government says that live music will not be exempt as "incidental" if it is advertised – even if unamplified. Guess what a landlord will prefer to do if his alcohol licence may be held up until he complies with "conditions"?

The government denies that the folk arts need any special protection or consideration, or are unlikely to impact safety or order. But it accepted it should exempt ALL events in places of worship – even if the events are not religious. Why are these, big screen TVs, and juke boxes exempt, but not folk ?


To…………………………….

MP for ………………….

House of Commons,

London SW1A 1AA

From: ……………………………
…………………………………
………………………………
……………………………
…………………………
………………………

Date……………….

Dear…………………………….

I am writing about the Licensing Bill. It is obviously wrong to treat folk music – usually unamplified – as if it were amplified. It is obviously wrong to treat folk dance – performed by a small side to unamplified music – as if it were a rave or disco. These folk arts do not cause the same noise or disturbance. These do not cause the same behaviour. These do not carry electrical hazards.

Worse, it is irrational to ignore the special needs of our cultural heritage. These things deserve government support, not regulation to extinction.

Worse still, it seems to be intentional discrimination, and an intentional and unjustifiable interference with freedom of expression, to pretend that these things must be regulated because of noise disturbance and safety risks (when, being unamplified, they create no such risks) but to exempt other entertainments which obviously do pose all or some of such risks.

By all means regulate the things that need regulating. But there is no case at all to regulate folk dance, folk music, or acoustic music. It is frankly foolish to pretend that subjecting them to local authority regulation will make them easier to put on. This regulation does the image of the government no good at all. It will do tourism no good at all. It will do the music industry, which draws so much of its real talent from folk club roots, no good at all.

Please examine the arguments the government is using. Do not take their reply uncritically. Compare their words to the actual words of the Bill, and vote against the Bill unless these faults are fixed.

Yours truly,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:49 PM

Just in case anyone is worried about getting permission, I am happy for people to use the forms ET has just posted, and which I previously supplied to him with authority to re-use, circulate, re-post etc. If anyone is going to a place where they might drum up support, please do spread the forms about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 May 03 - 12:13 PM

82,337........................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 03 - 08:25 AM

82,759.....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 May 03 - 06:01 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall

There are now over 83,000 signatures on the 'Two in a bar' petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar

Another online petition at the same site urges Tony Blair to bring in 24-hour pub licensing 'with immediate effect everywhere in the UK'. It has 40 signatures (an increase of 3 in the past two weeks):
http://www.petitiononline.com/AA1234/petition.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 07:22 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall. Please pass this on.

The live music music petition will be presented to 10 Downing Street on Monday 16 June at 12.30pm.

Leading the presentation will be folk club organiser Graham Dixon, who created the online petition, adapting the text of Shadow Culture Secretary John Whittingdale's Early Day Motion 331*. Mr Whittingdale and other MPs and Peers will also attend. The presentation is being organised by the Musicians' Union, who will be joined by the English Folk Dance and Song Society, and the Association of British Jazz Musicians, in the presentation group.

An MU press release will be issued next week with further details.

* EDM 331 now has 161 MPs signatures and stands at No.32 in the current list of 1,533 EDMs

This is the EDM text (note that only churches and other places of public religious worship are no longer affected by the Bill):

That this House expresses concern that the Licensing Bill proposals to make the performance of live music licensable in pubs and clubs, in places where alcohol is served, in churches, synagogues, mosques and other places of worship, in schools and colleges, in community centres and village and parish halls, and in private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held will have an enormously detrimental effect on musicians and live music performances; fears that the raising of money for charities by musicians will be seriously compromised; considers it will seriously impinge on the folk community including folk music and traditional folk activities such as morris dancing, wassailing, &c; believes that the penalties for breaking the law of a six month jail sentence of a £20,000 fine are far too draconian; considers it grossly unfair and inconsistent that live music will not be licensable in Scotland but will be in England and Wales; regrets that the Government has decided to replace the anomalous two in a bar rule with a none in a bar rule which will catch all live music performances; believes that the requirement for the provision of entertainment facilities to become licensable which will ensnare music shops, music and dance studios and teachers, represents a totally unacceptable regulatory intrusion into mainstream activities; and calls on the Government to amend the relevant parts of bill in order to remove the iniquities faced by musicians and the music industry as a whole.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 04:26 AM

From Hamish

LIBERTY AND MUSIC

Even Labour MPs who are members of jazz and other music appreciation societies are saying they will not vote against the Government over the Licensing Bill. Unless the Government makes further amendments during the next debate on Monday 16 June, these MPs will be voting in support of a new criminal offence: the provision of unlicensed entertainment facilities, which include musical instruments:

'An antique piano in a pub that was only provided for decorative effect would not give rise to the need for a licence. And a licence would not be required if the pub operator did not provide it for the public to play. A licence would only be required if it was used to entertain people at the premises or by people on the premises to entertain themselves.'
[Department for Culture, 'Regulation of Entertainment under the Licensing Bill', revised April 2003, p4, para 2.8]

Why is the Government doing this? Perhaps the 18th century French philospher and mathematician D'Alembert had the answer:
'I am amazed that in a century when so many pens write about the liberty of commerce, the liberty of marriages, the liberty of the press, or the liberty of painting, no one has yet written about THE LIBERTY OF MUSIC . . . Our great statesmen reply: "You are being short-sighted, for all liberties are interrelated and are all equally dangerous. The liberty of music presupposes liberty to feel, the liberty to feel involves liberty of thought, and liberty of thought involves liberty of action, and the liberty of action is the ruination of states. So let us keep the Opera as it is, if we wish to preserve the kingdom; and let us put a brake on the liberty of singing if we don't wish to see the liberty of talking following hard on its heels . . ."'

['On the liberty of music', essay, 1759. Jean le Rond D'Alembert, 1717-1783


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 11:32 AM

Curiously when all this kicked off a contact who later worked very hard to help me get something in to the Telegraph (and who, being part-Irish is proud of his reaction to repression) told me that his opinion reading between the lines was that the government wanted to muzzle political song...

As it happens we did not get nicked at Jacqui's wake. I did not get nicked on Tuesday. Sunday I'm at a barbie that is "open invitation" so might be construed as public, so I so I wonder if we'll all get nicked there. I wonder if I'll get nicked on Monday... I think I'll make a special effort to do political songs.

I'll be at the press call Monday week before the petition is handed in, on behalf of the Perfomer-Lawyer-Group, too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 08:45 AM

The following from Graham Dixon

Hi

First of all thanks again to everyone who has supported the 'Licensing of Live Music' petition.

As you all know it was originally intended to deliver the petition at the end of March - but due to the war I felt that it would not get the publicity and exposure that it deserves.

So the delivery date has now been set to coincide with the bills next
reading in parliament.

I will be delivering the petition to Downing Street on Monday 16th June at 12:30 PM. So if you haven't yet signed - now is your chance to do so.


www.musiclovers.ukart.com

I would particularly like to thank Hamish Birchall from the Musicians Union for all his hard work in arranging the delivery and also Roger Gall for continuall keeping the issue in focus.

On a lighter note I would like to apologise to all the folks from
"Scunthorpe" and all the people named "Dick" "Dickson" & "Dickinson" who got blown out when trying to sign the petiton. The American profanity checker may thik that you are obscene but we love you ;-).

Thanks again.

Graham Dixon
Too Old to Rock & Roll
Too Young to Die


www.troubleatmill.com
www.roseoftheribblevalley.ukart.com

Special thanks from me to Graham for doing a great job and to everyone out there who circulated, signed or did anything to enable the petition to work and make a difference.

Thanks


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:40 AM

refresh,only,a,wek,left,to,sign,this.
Richard-I,assume,the,media,will,be,present,at,the,petition,submition?
There,is,a,list,of,every,TV,Radio-station,andnewspaper,in,theuk,atMediaUK,[www.mediauk.com]

sorry,no,spaces,mykeyboard,is,broken.john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:52 AM

I will be coming up on Monday and I hope that many of us will. The more people and the more colourful those people are, assembling in Whitehall - the more chance of the photos appearing in the media.

Who else will be comming?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 02:10 PM

See the MU's press release for details of the presentation.

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/latest_news.shtml


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 03:44 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

Today's petition presentation to 10 Downing Street went well, but the press stayed away this time, in spite of our best efforts to engage their interest. The lack of a celebrity performer may have been a factor. There is no question, however, that the 110,000 signatures, and the coalition of performers' organisations and the music industry backing the MU campaign, has made a big impact behind the scenes with the Department for Culture, MPs and Peers.

Pressure on the Government is also being maintained by the Joint Committee on Human Rights (JCHR). Their latest Report, published on 13 June, is scathing. The exemption for places of public religious worship remains a potential discrimination (against people doing the same thing in premises used for secular purposes), but the Report also concludes that the Bill might

'...leave a patchwork of different licensing requirements without a coherent rationale, calling in question the existence of a pressing social need for the restriction on freedom of expression through a licensing regime for public entertainment, and so undermining the Government's claim that such a licensing regime is a justifiable interference with the right to freedom of expression under ECHR Article 10.2'.
[JCHR, 'Scrutiny of Bills: Further Progress Report, Twelfth Report of Session 2002-03, HL Paper 119, HC 765, p17, para 3.4]

This is strong stuff, and it will be raised by MPs in this evening's Commons debate of the Bill (although it is unlikely that anything other than Government amendments will be accepted).

However, the petition and the JCHR Report has been on the agenda earlier today during behind the scenes discussions between Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell and key Opposition Peers.

The discussions are a sign that the Government recognises they are in difficulty. This could be good news, but I do not want to raise hopes prematurely. A last round of letters to Peers may yet be required.

When the Bill goes back to the Lords on Thursday (19th), Opposition Peers could delay the Bill by refusing to accept Commons changes to the first round of House of Lords amendments - unless the Government can agree some compromise behind the scenes.

What further letters to Peers might say depends to a great extend this evening's debate in the Commons. Even though the Government should have no difficulty getting the Bill through in the Commons tonight, Ministers may give clues as to the nature of any further concession being considered. As soon as I have had a chance to read the Hansard record tomorrow I will circulate another note.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jun 03 - 01:47 PM

The following from Graham Dixon

As recieved from No 10

Dear Mr Dixon

Your e-petition has been forwarded for reply. The response will be posted on the following page in due course:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page297.asp

Deleting a further 17 entries as listed below brought the total to 83440.

Yours sincerely

No10 Webteam p

>snip<


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: BanjoRay
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 05:46 AM

Looking at the list of on line petitions, ours had immensely the largest number of signatures - the next biggest, the No To War In Iraq petition had less than 15000. You'd think they'd take a hint!
Cheers
Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:47 PM

The follwing from Graham Dixon.

Dear Mr Dixon


A response to your e-petition has been published. View the response here:


http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page297.asp


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 15 August 5:12 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.