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Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

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The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM
katlaughing 13 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM
The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 07:32 PM
The Shambles 13 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM
fiddler 13 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 02:08 AM
George Papavgeris 14 Dec 02 - 03:33 AM
katlaughing 14 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM
Oaklet 14 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 02:54 PM
diesel 14 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM
Mr Happy 14 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM
Ed. 14 Dec 02 - 05:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Dec 02 - 05:49 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Dec 02 - 06:02 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 14 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM
The Shambles 14 Dec 02 - 09:26 PM
The Pooka 14 Dec 02 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 14 Dec 02 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Jon Freeman 15 Dec 02 - 02:52 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 06:19 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 06:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 02 - 09:40 AM
The Shambles 15 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM
nager 15 Dec 02 - 11:29 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 16 Dec 02 - 02:55 AM
IanC 16 Dec 02 - 11:10 AM
troubleatmill 16 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM
The Shambles 16 Dec 02 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C) 16 Dec 02 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 02 - 07:20 PM
CraigS 16 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Dec 02 - 08:39 PM
clansfolk 16 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 17 Dec 02 - 01:17 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 01:56 AM
The Shambles 17 Dec 02 - 09:22 AM
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Subject: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM

If you are concerned that the new licensing proposals are a threat to Live Music in England and Wales then please read the statement below and sign the petition that you will find set up on the following site.
http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

This is an E petition set up by and to be submitted on the 15 March 2003 to Number 10 Downing Street.

We, the undersigned, are concerned that the Licensing Bill proposals to make the performance of live music licensable in pubs and clubs, in places where alcohol is served, in churches, synagogues, mosques and other places of worship, in schools and colleges, in community centres and village and parish halls, and in private homes and gardens where private parties and weddings may be held will have an enormously detrimental effect on musicians and live music performances; fears that the raising of money for charities by musicians will be seriously compromised; consider it will seriously impinge on the folk community including folk music and traditional folk activities such as morris dancing, wassailing, etc; believe that the penalties for breaking the law of a six month jail sentence of a £20,000 fine are far too draconian; consider it grossly unfair and inconsistent that live music will not be licensable in Scotland but will be in England and Wales; regret that the Government has decided to replace the anomalous two in a bar rule with a none in a bar rule which will catch all live music performances; believes that the requirement for the provision of entertainment facilities to become licensable which will ensnare music shops, music and dance studios and teachers, represents a totally unacceptable regulatory intrusion into mainstream activities; and calls on the Government to amend the relevant parts of bill in order to remove the iniquities faced by musicians and the music industry as a whole.

The UK government do recognise E Petitions Read their policy. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page598.asp It explains why you need to enter a valid postal address.

Please add your name to this and take the opportunity to possibly make a difference.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM

It says only UK residents are elgible to sign. I will send an email as we'd discussed on the other recent thread. Thanks and good luck to all,

kat


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 07:32 PM

Sorry, yes it does say that.

This is the Email of the Minister at the Dept of Culture Media and Sport, who is responsible for this Bill. He is also the Minister responsible for encoraging overseas tourists to visit England and Wales.

Perhaps those concerned but not eligible to sign this petition would like to express their views to Dr Howells?

E-mail Address(es):
kim.howells@culture.gsi.gov.uk


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM

I was pleased to see that someone from Montana has signed the petition!

Overseas contributions there may not be technically valid, but there does not seem to be any difficulty in placing your name there, if you should wish to......


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 13 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

Excelent Idea!

A


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 02:08 AM

When I went to bed there were 19 signatures, I woke up to 39! So it looks very promising already so please spread circulate as widely as you can.

Being that the petition wording mirrors the wording of EDM 331, if we can get enough signatures on this, it may persuade any reluctant MPs to support EDM 331.

Hard copy petitions (with the same wording) can augment this one.

Many thanks to Graham Dixon for oganising this, please show your appreciation to him by making your very best efforts to make it work.

Inform your clubs pubs and work friends, the family,,,,,,,,,,the dog even.

Those using the email Dr Howells route can ask the the Department pass on your comments to No 10 Downing Street


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:33 AM

It's 41 now - both my good lady and myself signed up.
SPREAD THE WORD!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:18 AM

FWIW, I've signed. I don't feel comfortable with my address being public, though, so I didn't include anything but "Colorado USA." I hope it helps. At least they will know others in the world are aware.

kat


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

Back to the top. This is important.

All the posts from Shambles may have put you off, but do sign the petition.

Ed


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Oaklet
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM

I was number 224 at 16.10 GMT Uk on Saturday 14th Dec.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 02:54 PM

This from Hamish Birchall

Would you please circulate the following?

The creators of the none in a bar Licensing Bill are stuck in the 18th-century. The Bill is constructed as if 21st century safety, noise and crime and disorder legislation had never happened.

The maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and six months in prison for an unlicensed performance of live music is greater than for a serious breach of health and safety, or noise, legislation (which does not carry a potential custodial sentence).

This was one reason why existing PEL legislation was rubbished in Parliament earlier this year as 'archaic and just plain daft.' But, unbelievably, the government has just confirmed that the penalty would continue to apply to carol singers:


"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice." [Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002]

Criminalising live music without a licence was an 18th century innovation. It was a crime and disorder measure, applying only to pubs in Westminster, at a time when there was no unified police force for London. Public safety and noise legislation was rudimentary or non-existent.

The Bill is a gift to jobsworths. Rest assured local authorities will enforce 'none in a bar' if this Bill is passed without amendment. Licensees, and musicians, will be treated as criminals where there is no safety risk and no noise complaint.


EDM 331 has been adapted as an 'E-Petition'.

You can add your signature on the following site:
http://www.musiclovers.ukart.com/

The government do recognise E Petitions. Read their policy.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page598.asp

It explains why you need to enter a valid postal address. Please add your name to this and take the opportunity to possibly make a difference.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: diesel
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM

It has accepted my signiture from Ireland and is now over 300

Even if they don't regard Foreign signitories - it may perhaps influence the Tourist aspect....

Hope the bill is defeated

rgds

Diesel


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

shambles & ed,

i've introduced this issue on mudchat.

a large number of non-uk mudcats are ignorant of all this but i'm explaining it- lots want 2 help- which email thing should they add their weight to?


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

I suppose it is probably better to email and ask for these to be forwarded to No 10. Two birds with one stone........

But as overseas folk (bless em) do seem to be able to sign the E petition, who knows? They may as well do both?

Please send the all the overseas 'chatter catters' our thanks for their concern.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 04:53 PM

But as overseas folk do seem to be able to sign the E petition, who knows?

I think that some people are missing the point here.

Anyone is, of course, able to sign a petition at petitiononline.com The site has nothing to do with UK government. Anyone who posts to the list from overseas or fails to give a full address, won't be counted, and is simply making more work for Graham Dixon, when he comes to make his submission


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM

I think that some people are missing the point here.

I have asked Graham Dixon for his wishes.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:37 PM

I have asked Graham Dixon for his wishes.

What the British Government will accept would seem more important...


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 05:49 PM

Exactly so. It's made perfectly clear onsite that only UK residents should sign, and that verifiable addresses MUST be given. Signatures from non-residents, or with incomplete addresses, will be providing a possible excuse for the petition to be ignored; as would signatures from Mickey Mouse, which I expect would also be "accepted" by the form.

Sorry and all, and the kind thought is appreciated, but for those who do not live in the UK, a short email to Kim Howells (address above) pointing out the potential damage to the tourist trade would probably be most effective.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:02 PM

Ed & Malcolm are correct, I have just looked at the details of the petition, and it appears that to be valid, it should have a closing date, perhaps someone could contact the petition organiser and suggest he add a closing date, maybe a month or so from now.It apears that if all the requirements are complied with, then the government have to acknoweledge the petition and respond to it.The reason for giving an address is so that it can be checked, perhaps against names on the voters role? It is going well, there are already well over 300 entries on it.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM

Can we please leave the organising to the organiser, who has demonstrated that he is perfectly able to read. If you read it you will see that it does indeed have a closing date.

Until Graham Dixon expresses his wishes on this small matter of willing and welcome overseas folk, can we please just concentrate on publicising, circulating and making the petition the success it deserves to be and not risk confusing folk who are willing to help?

It is doubtful even if we could manage millions of 'valid' signatures that anyone will take much notice but petitions serve many useful functions. It focuses attention, motivates and the presentation of the finshed thing can take place with a march or an event that will receive media attention.

On behalf of Graham can I thank you for all the help and interest so far. Can we just keep positve? Answers in to me in personal message will prevent deflecting attention away from the object here.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 06:36 PM

The following from Graham Dixon.

I can't believe the response - it's brilliant please inform everyone you know.

I've uploaded some hard copies to print off for use at gigs/clubs etc.

Please use them and post them to me before 15/03/03 I will include them with the printed off copy of the online signatures. Please make it clear that anyone who has signed the online version should not sign the hard copy.

Copy available at From Received Sent
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lancashirefolk

When you access the site -
select 'files' on the left then 'petition'. (Word document)

I think I've set it up so that anyone can access - I'd appreciate it if someone would let me know if it works.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM

Pasting addresses into the "forward" box seems to be a bit of a problem, so in the end I forwarded the email telling me about it.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM

Graham has added the following to the petition site.

NB - if you are not a UK resident we still value your support and your opinion. By all means sign the petition if you have a genuine interest in live music in the UK (IE performer/festival goer/etc) I don't know whether or not HM Government will recognise your signature - so if you feel the need to sign please leave a comment on the (Yahoo) forum stating your interest. I will submit these along with the final petition.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 09:26 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,859852,00.html

A prayer for Morris men

Saturday December 14, 2002
The Guardian


Your warning (Leader, December 10) on the effect of the government's licensing bill on church music is to be applauded. But it raises the question of why only religious music should be exempt. Other categories of traditional music, such as the music of Morris dancers, should also be exempt.
G Meadows
(First Sedgley Morris)
Blakedown, Worcs

In the licensing bill, schools are explicitly included as establishments that will need to apply for licences to hold concerts, plays, dance exhibitions and indoor sporting events (for example, a school basketball tournament).
Oliver Thornton
Crowborough, East Sussex
oliver.thornton@virgin.net

Sessions of live music and dance, however small, are also threatened by the bill. While allowing large groups in pubs to watch TV unimpeded, and to listen to processed music, live sessions of music and dance will require a licence. This will lead to the destruction of folk music.
Helen Chew
Stamford, Lincolnshire

The bill will threaten a whole range of informal and essentially amateur music in pubs and other premises, and could lead to the near extinction in this country of folk, jazz and country music sessions, in particular the informal pub sessions run by - and enjoyed by - many people around the country.
Mark Austin
Morden, Surrey


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 10:44 PM

My God. Been out of touch lately so this is new to me. I'm no libertarian laissez-faire free-marketeer; but this one sounds to this Yank like the regulatory impulse run amok.

Ineligible for the petition, I'll compose an email to that official cited above. / One cautionary note re a post above: my opinion, it's not unfair because of Scotland not being covered. It's just unfair, period. Beware the pitfall of feeling that an intrinsic wrong is somehow mitigated by more "equitably" speading it around. If my rights are violated and my neighbor's are not -- good for my neighbor. The fewer rights violated, the better. The harm to me is not one whit lessened if the other guy gets screwed too. The injustice here will not be in free Scotland. It will be in occupied England and Wales. The solution is not to extend the licensing plan, but to scrap it.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Dec 02 - 11:43 PM

Thank you Shambles -

I have responded to your politicians with a conservative, Christian, Yank's view regarding the need for citizens to obey the law...and be submissive to the authority that has been posted above them by God.

Perhaps, in the future, you too will "see the light" and become submissive to authority.

There are many of us praying for you conversion

We know, you hear the call.

Come foreward, on bended knee.

Confess the error of your ways.

In Thoughtful Prayer for the poor lost Shambles of soul.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 02:52 AM

Joe, a request...

I don't know how your linking system works but please, if possible could you consider "unlinking" this thread as I feel (perhaps wrongly) it has an effect of "diluting" a very important issue.

I can only express my own opinions but I believe this PEL issue has the potential to destroy folk (and other) music in England and Wales. I also believe (perhaps apparently contary to a reply I gave to Jim Dixon in another thread) that this is the most constructive move yet; but I fear PEL issues may have become something of a joke over here...

Please feel free to delete my post. I have no intention of causing trouble, but have serious (and at times even selfish) concerns over the whole PEL issues.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:19 AM

One cautionary note re a post above: my opinion, it's not unfair because of Scotland not being covered. It's just unfair, period. Beware the pitfall of feeling that an intrinsic wrong is somehow mitigated by more "equitably" speading it around. If my rights are violated and my neighbor's are not -- good for my neighbor. The fewer rights violated, the better. The harm to me is not one whit lessened if the other guy gets screwed too. The injustice here will not be in free Scotland. It will be in occupied England and Wales. The solution is not to extend the licensing plan, but to scrap it.

Thanks very much for your concern and your actions, I think many will be in perfect agreement with this. It is, I think the key to why the response even from folkies in England and Wales has been patchy, as the current law's enforcement has not afffected everyone here the same.

Many who are not directly affected tend to accuse those who have been and are trying to change things, of wanting to make life worse for them, by 'kicking up a fuss'. When the truth is that they are really trying to make things better for all of us, and to alert everyone to the fact that the partial honeymoon period for some, is soon going to come to an abrubt end. Perhaps I should explain a little about Scotland.

Scotland already has more semsible (but still far from perfect entertainment licensing). PELs in Scotland

This is not mentioned with any intention of spreading the misfortue of those in England and Wales to Scotland, even if that were possible, but to pose the question why this model (Morag, I call her) cannot form the starting point for 'reform' this side of the Tweed.

For Scotland maintains that other existing health and safety legislation, exactly the same as that in England and Wales, means that the Scottish public does not require any additional entertainment licensing in already liquor licesened premises.

Our Government really have not made the case for, or established the need, for the increased scope of the proposed entertainment licensing requirement licensing. I think that our Noble Lords in their debate 12 Decenmber, are beginning are making that point rather clear, even to the, so far imovable Government proposers of the legislation. They deal with this with gentle humour, which you may find entertaining, if you can sort through the strange processes on the following Hansard account.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:44 AM

Petition Clarification.

The above is a thread started by Graham Dixon to explain the petition as regards welcome overseas contributions.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 09:40 AM

Just signed as 502. And looking through the signatiries I've foudn a few friends whose addresses I'd lost - more for the Christmas Card list...

Here's a link to the forum for comments linked with this petition - that might be a good place to put comments, for example, about how you and all your well-heeled folkie friends are planning to stay away from England until the music is freed up.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM

860 signatures since the petition's birth only late on Friday (13th)night is really something!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: nager
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 11:29 PM

I live in Australia but I still have UK nationality as well as Australian .. so I've signed the petition and given my address here in Oz.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 02:55 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 11:10 AM

Currently up to 1667 and topping the charts. We're pushing out e-mails as fast as we can. Trying to get bellringers on board too, as the bill would affect them.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: troubleatmill
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for your continued help promoting this cause.

I've done that much typing today trying today (answering queries - most of them positive but a small number very negative)that my fingers are getting too short to play my guitar.

All the audience members at Gregson Lane Folk Club are cheering.

Graham Dixon


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM

Carol singers anywhere outside a church service are liable to be affected as well. That's a point to make in MPs letters ( and faxes via this site. (Sign off with a Happy Christmas and a reminder that this could be the last one where Carol Singers won't be liable to be arrested.)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 01:29 PM

This is a terrible thing to try to read Roger! Do you have a view about which sections are significant and how the argument is going please

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds02/text/21212-01.htm#21212-01_head2

A few edited highlights follow, mainly in the words of Government answers, from the above Licensing Bill debate 12 December. I have selectively edited out of order and have made no attempt whatsoever to be fair. Lord Redesdale btw, is on our side.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The provisions of Schedule 1 do not attempt to discriminate in any way between one kind of music and another, or indeed, to discriminate between one kind of entertainment and another except in the sense that we are concerned with its effect.

But then later on

Recorded music can be quiet and cause few problems to anyone. Live music, on the other hand, can be extremely loud and offensive to some people. Anyone who has been to the Wembley Arena or to the Glastonbury Festival surely would not say that they, being live music, should be exempt from the licensing procedures. Indeed—I hope the Committee will not mind my saying so—anyone who has been to a State banquet will have heard the bagpipers going around the table twice very loudly indeed. That is all right in St George's Hall and in Buckingham Palace, but it would not be much fun if one lived next door.

What we are concerned with is the public safety and avoidance of public nuisance aspects.

Lord Redesdale: I apologise. But there seems to be a theme to some of the Minister's answers that any live music will bring about disorder. I know that some of the original regulations about live music were brought in because it caused disorder in the 16th and 17th centuries. Some of the noble Lord's comments indicate that live music is a cause of disorder and of public nuisance. I did not wish to speak to this amendment but the noble Lord's comments have forced me to. Can the Minister tell us what evidence he has for the assertion that he makes?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have made no such assertion. I am saying that there is no distinction to be made, from the point of view of public safety or public nuisance, between live and recorded music. To single out live music for the purpose of the amendment is to misunderstand both the purpose of the Bill in the way it is drafted and the effect that it has.

And of course the musical dangers presented by the dreaded pop and rock concerts, shaking the very foundations of our schools.

Baroness Blackstone:
The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, referred to the possibility of a teacher or head teacher standing in front of a very large group of 500 or even 1,000 children and possibly having amplification.
That teacher or head teacher is clearly not there for the purposes of entertainment—although some of the pupils might find what he or she has to say entertaining, or might seek to find it entertaining—but for the purpose of instruction. I can again assure the House that entertainment provided without charge for pupils, their parents and other invited guests is not a licensable activity. It is a private event to which the public are not admitted and no charges are made.

However, it would probably be wrong to go further and exempt automatically schools, colleges and universities which stage public and commercial concerts.

They sometimes stage extremely large pop and rock concerts where public disorder can take place.

The public safety implications of such concerts in terms of very loud noise and disturbance are no different from other commercial concerts. I hope that the Committee will accept that point. Some schools put on first-rate commercial performances—sometimes with professional orchestras—but the safety of the public must be our first concern.

But strangely suggest a different approach on crowds attracted to the showing live TV sport in pubs.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: This is a deregulatory Bill and Amendment No. 17 would increase regulation. We have listed several types of entertainment and are providing regulation for those. But these entertainments in themselves are noisy or could constitute public nuisance.

Everyone has television in their own home. It cannot be turned up beyond a certain level without it becoming impossible to hear. We are regulating where we have to; namely, for noisy entertainments, late-night refreshment, fire safety grounds, and so forth.

But the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, and the noble Lord, Redesdale, are saying that the very showing of television—especially the showing of football matches—could give rise to disorder, particularly where alcohol is being sold. I do not deny that.

But the solution is not licensing the showing of television. Televisions are on in the background in pubs all the time, I am sorry to say—with the admirable and notable exception of JD Wetherspoon, which is not the brewery of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson—and we would not want to license them merely because on occasion football is shown and may give rise to disorder.

The solution to disorder arising from the showing of television is by imposing conditions on alcohol licences, not by increasing the regulation of the showing of television itself.

TV of course already needs a licence - And

I repeat our strong belief that the correct way to deal with this issue is by placing conditions on a licence and ensuring that if a licensee permits disorder and noise nuisance on his premises he will face a review of his licence, and it will therefore be in his interests to maintain an orderly public house. However, in view of what ACPO has stated, we shall talk to it again about this matter. I believe that there is a misunderstanding here.

I think that I understand alright - And then back again on sporting matters.

Lord Davies of Oldham: -
We believe that the events should continue to be licensed because only regulation through such a system can ensure public safety and prevent public nuisance and crime and disorder. To exclude indoor sporting events without proper justification would lead to serious problems.-

And

No. We are concerned with events that generate a significant audience involving public safety and health and different from the normal licensing operation governing the pub.

On another issue.

Lord Redesdale: I apologise to the Minister for interrupting at this point. I have a particular question that he may be able to answer now. If a dance floor is already in a venue but is not used for that purpose, does the physical presence of the dance floor mean that an official could say that the premises must be licensed, or does the dance floor have to be removed?

That question has been raised by the industry, because the financial provision of pubs will be affected. What is a dance floor?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I come to the third part of the argument, because we need to consider the matter as a whole. I refer to the availability of licences. One is not going to have a dance floor in a nightclub unless one is proposing to dance, and one is not going to dance except to music—at least, not in my experience.

Any licensed premises, such as a nightclub or pub, which is selling alcohol, is going to have an alcohol licence to start with. At the same time as applying for its alcohol licence, and at no extra charge, it will be able to apply for an entertainment licence.

As I have made clear, the judgment on the entertainment licence will not be made on the basis that the music is live or recorded, or amplified or not amplified.

It will be made on whether an audience is present that needs to be protected on the grounds of public safety, and whether protection is needed for those who live around.

The conditions that will be applied to the licence relate not to whether it is live or recorded or amplified or not amplified but to whether health and safety and public safety requirements are met by the premises and by the emission of noise and other disturbance from the premises.

In other words, they could be controlled in terms of the numbers of decibels, such as a requirement for a lower level of noise later at night. All those matters can be dealt with in the conditions of the individual licence.

This will give a little of the flavour of the difficulties the Government's side are having, in trying to maintain any logical basis for their measures. ……….There is more.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 07:08 PM

I think that is the edited highlights!

I get a feeling that the government is on the back foot slightly (Cricketing expression for "on the defensive"). That may make them feel vulnerable, but never hit a politician when he's down: kick him, or he'll get up again.

Therefore this is a good time for the petition and individual letters telling Howells that unamplified music needs no regulation, and even if it did, the folk tradition is important enough to merit exceptionally favourable treatment.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 07:20 PM

Can't we make 'Folkie' a religion or ethnic group - it might help focus Blair's attention!

AF


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: CraigS
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:01 PM

Folkies already are an ethnic minority, in that UK folkies live in the UK (ie., are ethnic) and have different cultural values to the majority of the population (ie. a love of traditional music). Anybody got any ideas how to utilise this without having to utilise distinctive features? Unless we all wear fluorescent blue suede shoes on Wednesdays, or paint our faces with woad, I can't see how to draw attention. I knew a man 30 years ago who I thought was always a bit scruffy until he told me that he was a devout member of the Sealed Knot, and always wore clothes in keeping with the period. The point is that unless we go around wearing badges or something there's nothing to distinguish us from anyone else.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM

Signed, Yours, Aye. Dave (the ancient mariner)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:39 PM

The point is. this law is aimed directly at all kinds of other people, not just those who go in for whatver we might mean by folk music. In this respect we are part of an ethnic majority, made up of all the people of all sorts who are going to find their way of life interered with.

The trouble is, until it's too late, nobody seems to believe it's for real, and that it is likely to affect them. And that goes for most folkies in my experience.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM

2362 and rising


Let's make a stink about the proposed PEL - Bring back le Petomain!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 12:08 AM

How about 'Farting Badger' as campaign tune?

The response to the petition is great but it is imortant not to forget our MP's and EDM 331, which seems to be stuck on 30 names?

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=331


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:17 AM

You...know Shambles....I dearly love your threads.

Because one PRO - (establishment) COMMON QUO, from a Yank (tourist) beats

ANYTen 10

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:56 AM

Our noble Lords may claim to understand the subtle differences in the way the Bill proposes to treat the simple singing of Christmas carols and why, but do you?

The situation in the following is simply defended by the Government on the grounds that it is really just the same under current legislation. Is this rather badly missing the point that they are proudly proposing a deregulatory 'reform' of current legislation, in this Bill?

"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice."[Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002. So..........

Carol singers in a shop or station require a licence.

Carol singers in church service do not require a licence.

Carol singers in a church concert do require a licence.

I find that it is rather difficult to square the above and the heavy penalties, with the stated objectives of this 'reform' Bill, or is it just me?

Perhaps we can all ask our MPs to explain and also write to our local papers and ask others to ask their MPs?

http://www.faxyourmp.com/


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:22 AM

Killed by the PEL system

See above link for the latest enforcement silliness.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:34 AM

Petition just hit 3,000! Still going strong.

btw Roger
I wonder if you'd mind not adding every new post (or a link in this case) to all the active threads every time. It actually causes quite a lot of bother (you end up opening every thread for the same information) and just clutters up threads that might be better devoted to specific things. This one, for example, is about a petition for an amendment to the new bill and has nothing really to do with the current PEL system.

Just an idea.
:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:33 PM

3347

I have responded to Ian via PM and would like to point out that I am doing my best to juggle many balls and look after Tony and the children - (no I can't use that).

We all screw up, but can I just ask for a little slack? And that in future all the comments on mine and everyone else's failings be put into personal messages to them?


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

Letter in the Guardian 17 December 2002

"I see the proposed new entertainment laws (Letters December 14) could mean the end of live public performances of morris dancing and folk music. Oh dear.

Chris McColl
Bournemouth, Dorset"


I semm to descern that this writer may not be a great fan?

The 'Catter' that sent notice to me of the above letter in a PM, did not want me to mention their name, in case they too ended up sharing the flak being thrown at me.

Sad but quite true, I am afraid...........


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