Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

3802.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:08 AM

another refresh, The petition is going well, with now nearly 4000 signatures including Mike Harding, Martin Carthy MBE, Norma Waterson, Jez Lowe, Les Barker and half of Punch the Horse.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:45 AM

Just passed 4000. Bell ringers are now involved nationally, and their publication, "The Ringing World" will probably have something about the bill this or next week.

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:50 AM

The next interesting milestone is 4962, which is 0.01% of ALL the UK population over 16. 0.01% may not sound a lot, but in 4-5 days, its pretty good going.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:13 AM

I've just signed, and plus emailed a whole load of people about it.... hopefully they will do the same too!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:36 AM

The petition is an excellent piece of work. Very clear and simple to sign up to, and very well worded.
Well done to its organiser Graham Dixon & all concerned.

Kris

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

king brill, well said & i add my heartfelt thanks to Graham Dixon- very well done!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:45 PM

When I sent a fax to my MP a few days ago I included the text of the petition as a good way of summing up some of the issues.

Good little letter in today's Guardian from a mate of mine, succintly getting across the point it's not just folk music that is under threat:

It's all very well being flippant about folk music (Letters, December 17), but the proposed bill threatens informal music, dancing, hymn services, nativity plays, football terrace chanting, and singing happy birthday in a public place. Spontaneous entertainment will die.
Simon Vogel
Harlow, Essex

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM

5092 in only 6 days, is a fantastic response, thanks for everyone's efforts - so far.

My MP commented that he has not (yet) signed EDM 331, as it was a Tory one! I think this is the reason it has not taken off quite like the petition has.

EDM 331 may well have been started by the opposition, but as the wording has been supported by over 5000 people of all voting pursuasions, it can hardly now be considered as a party political EDM.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:10 PM

We have already overtaken the other (finished) E petitions lodged on the Downing St site except for the next target 6633 and the one with the most 11664.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:58 AM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:09 AM

Petition just made it to 5436.

That was me.

LTS

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:47 AM

Kim Howells was on Radio 4 this morning on a program about Miner's Eisteddfods and the cultural and musical roots of the South Wales mining community, which he thought were wonderful. Maybe he ought to sign the petition, to prevent it all being lost!
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:51 AM

Its on 6028 now - and growing literally by the minute. If you view the signatures it tells you how many there are, and if you refresh the screen you can watch it grow. Amazing!!!

Kris

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:04 AM

Its especially amazing when you consider it has only been publicized on a handful of websites/newsgroups and by word-of-mouth. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a national newspaper ran an article and mentioned the address.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Folkie
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM

I've passed it on to the West Gallery Music Association and they now have a link to the petition from their website

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM

Bit of (rough) science.

You can use the shape of the curve for anything like this to predict a minimum number that it should get to. At the moment, it's been more-or-less on a plateau of 1,600 signatures for the past 3 days and is currently at about 6,500. No sign of the plateau tailing off at the moment, but when it does start there'll be about 1-2 times the daily rate to go. At this stage chances are, therefore, that it will reach at least 10,000.

Bellringers are in, West Gallery Musicians are in, can anybody suggest who to contact next to keep it on its plateau?

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:25 PM

Amateur Drama and Operatic Societies, perhaps. They will need to raise funds and are likely to want to put on concerts to do so. I can't see an appropriate UK newsgroup. Does anyone have a suitable mailing list?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ed.
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:36 PM

Well, there's British Choirs on the Net

Ed

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

Thanks Ed, I've emailed the organiser there.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

I don't think we should forget the other implications of the Bill and the local press.

For it is getting a bit political in the Dorset Evening Echo. Headlines today are Dorchester Civic Society writing to Oliver Letwin MP, West Dorset (Photo), warning of the dangers of 24-hour drinking.

On the Licensing Bill, they are organising WHAT DO YOU THINK? Write to the Editor or email [e-mail].

Is there anything you wish to say?

In the same edition, Chris Lonegan has printed the Petition link and full wording on the Live Gig guide. They have not mentioned the response though. Perhaps you could, there or in your local press?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

This from Hamish Birchall - Please circulate

Hello all! seasoning greetings, happy new year etc. PLEASE put the details of this protest event in your calendar and pass it on to as many people as possible, and please attend if you can. All the best, Caroline

Monday 27 January 2003, 1:00 PM
Parliament Square, London
Mozart's Birthday Silent Protest

To illustrate the apalling impact that the Government's Licensing Bill will have on live and community music-making. Bring your instrument (AND A GAG - medical-type mouth-coverings work well), but don't play it. Contact:
Caroline Kraabel 020 7237 1564.

[Caroline is part of the London Musicians' Collective - HB]

Organiser Caroline Kraabel's email is: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM

I have already told my (Labour) MP that he ought to sign the EDM, and that our cultural heritage is too important for yah-boo politics.

Has everyone?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:54 PM

7001

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM

PLEASE put the details of this protest event in your calendar and pass it on to as many people as possible, and please attend if you can.   Just in case .. the House of Lords has confirmed that carol singing will be a licensable event (same license that a Landlord has to apply for!

                        Monday 27 January 2003, 1:00 PM
                           Parliament Square, London
                               Mozart's Birthday
                                  Silent Protest

To illustrate the apalling impact that the Government's Licensing Bill will have on live and community music-making.
Bring your instrument (AND A GAG -medical-type mouth-coverings work well),
but don't play it.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:37 PM

Presumably Kissograms and suchlike will also be affected. (That's an angkle that might appeal to The Sun...)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:46 PM

i got emails direct from graham d, & from the chester & n.wales folkies.

i'm 3818

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:01 PM

I signed it. How much good it will do, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:10 PM

thanks sorch, the more the better.

i downloaded some hardcopy petition forms 2 collect names from various fcs, sar's, & sessions i attend. these r good 2 get from petitioners with no emails or online access.

they can be forwarded direct to:
Graham Dixon,77 Hayfield Avenue,Hoghton, Lancashire PR5 0AX, UK

please feel free 2 do this as USA & other overseas support will be most valuable.

cheers,

mr h

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:07 AM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:14 AM

I've emailed Mike Harding, he's going to include the address for the site on his programme, plus he's signed it too.

Ella

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:21 AM

7295 now - and here is the link to it to click on now if you haven't already

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:06 AM

7416

As mr happy says, if the good overseas folk wish to help and they have helped already, they could print off the hard copy from the site Kevin linked to above, and use these sheets locally to collect names and addresses.

There is plenty of time really as long as the finished sheets get posted to Graham before 15 March.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:18 AM

Is there somethin special about that date 15th March? Because St Patricks Night might perhaps be a good time to get some more people to sign up.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:02 AM

As far as I know Graham just plucked this date out of the air because we needed one. He did ask me for a suggested date but had input this date before I could get back to him. It seems as good a date as any......Perhaps we can find some significance for this date, if there is not one?

Any formal media attended presentation of a petition could take place on any date after 15 March.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM

In private homes, at private parties??!! You've got to be kidding!! Is Oliver Cromwell back, or what? (and please, no comments on the current U.S. administration; they probably just haven't thought of this yet!) I will send an email as soon as I get home; I can't do it from this computer. Good Luck!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:48 AM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM

Bit of a jackpot today in the Guardian! There were three long letters from Eliza Carthy, Mike Harding and Hamish respectively and Hamish also managed to get the address of the online petition into his article.

======

Licensed to kill music

Saturday December 21, 2002
The Guardian

A lot of people enjoy both visiting folk clubs and watching Morris dancing and they would rather the government didn't punish them for doing so (Letters, December 17). However unfashionable Chris McColl might deem said activities and how far above them he might consider himself and his fabulous taste to be, the proposed music licensing bill is nothing but a pathetic attempt to squeeze money out of local landlords, church activities and amateur musicians. It will kill what is left of our struggling traditions and regulate and charge for every last thing we do when we step outside of our houses.
It will discourage all small live music events and sink independent businesses. It will remove public stages for young and upcoming artists of all music genres and encourage the opening of corporate "meat market" TV pubs. It will stifle community events and charge a good deal of them out of existence; it will ensure that churches will sit empty for most of the year.

With the little energy it took Mr McColl to write his cheap joke, he could have discovered just how dangerous and insensitive the proposed legislation is, and what a devastating effect it could have on our modern culture, as well as our ancient.
Eliza Carthy
Heriot, Borders

· England is the only country I can think of that has virtually no respect for its own national culture. Here in Ireland, traditional music and dance in pubs is common and people are fiercely proud of their traditions. In the US, the Smithsonian has a massive archive of traditional music and pretty much every country in Europe has a government-sponsored centre keeping alive its traditional music.

Close to a million listeners tune in to my Radio 2 programme each Wednesday, 60,000 people go to the Sidmouth festival and hundreds of thousands go to Cambridge and the many other folk festivals about the country.

If this bill goes through, then music-making in our pubs will pretty much disappear, except for the juke box and kareoke machine: folk, Christmas carols, mummers plays, Morris dancing - all of them will become subject to control and licensing.

Kim Howells, the minister concerned, promised me on my programme that people making music in traditional sessions and folk clubs would not be penalised. It now looks as though I was hoodwinked. Why is this government so concerned with controlling every aspect of our lives? Why is a Labour government trying to kill the music of the people?

If this bill had been current 30 years ago, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, Rod Stewart, Mark Knopfler, Donovan, Ewan McColl, Bob Dylan, Gerry Rafferty, Billy Connolly, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell and the writers Willy Russell and Brian Jacques might all have had different careers, since all of them at some time served their dues in England's folk clubs.

This bill is an infringement of our rights as human beings to make music for the sheer joy of it - the very thing that fuelled so much of the early left in this country - and New Labour should hang its head in shame.
Mike Harding
Connemara, Ireland
[e-mail]

· Last week Andrew McIntosh, a government whip in the Lords, confirmed that carol singing in public places will remain a criminal offence unless licensed: maximum penalty, a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. It is already a criminal offence to encourage community-style singing in over 100,000 licensed premises in England and Wales. But the bill requires the licensing of any public performance of live music and defines "premises" as "any place" (clause 188). That means your front room, garden, any street, park, field etc.

The Musicians' Union is campaigning vigorously to prevent the government making this country the laughing stock of Europe (see also the online petition, www.musiclovers.ukart.com
Hamish Birchall
Consultant on licensing to the Musician's Union

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:08 AM

I was thinking it might be an idea to send Kim Howells a Christmas Greeting saying "Hands off our music", so I tried to visit the UK Government website, to try to check up what his job title is and so forth.

Up comes this message: ukonline.gov.uk is temporarily unavailable. Service will be restored as soon as possible. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. Please try again later.

This seems very appropriate somehow. They mouth off about the importance of communication and open government and that, but when you get down to it "ukonline.gov.uk is temporarily unavailable"...

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Llanfair
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:51 AM

Two more signatures, mine and Jim's, his from a different source than the Mudcat.

It will be up to 10,000 soon.

Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM

From Hamish (MU)

The Licensing Bill will be discussed on BBC Radio 4, You and Yours, on Monday 23 December, between 12.30 and 12.55pm.

Sheila Miller, who runs 'The Cellar Upstairs' folk club in London, will be talking about the live music implications. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, will talk about the implications for smaller breweries.

See also today's Guardian. Three hard-hitting letters: one from Mike Harding, one from Eliza Carthy, and one from your's truly.

Online petition reached 9,000 this morning: www.musiclovers.ukart.com

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM

The Salvation Army.

They were out today with cornets etc. Are they aware of the impending restrictions. They were being watched by a large crowd, gathering donations. In the crowd were two police constables, tapping to the music. Post licensing, would they wade in an arrest them?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:34 PM

The Hari Krishna lot could be up against it too, if the exemption for religious services is confined to registered church premises. And how about "house churches"?

I suppose the Trooping of the Colour and the Chaging of the Guard and so forth would be covered by some kind of Crown immunity.

Actually I think we've got the bastards on the run. The worry all along has been that it would go through on the nod with noone taking the risk seriously. That won't happen now, and I anticipate that there will be quite a few changes in the legislation that actually gets through. But we'd better be watching these changes like hawks, because these wallies don't know the first thing about these kinds of things.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:38 PM

Howells is [e-mail]

The problem is not that they don't know, it's that they are actively hostile, and change is seen as weakness unless it is only to decive the enemy (ie the public).

Remember, to Howells, three folk singers in a pub is his idea of hell. His words, not mine.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge (cookie and format C)
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM

Howells is [e-mail]

The problem is not that they don't know, it's that they are actively hostile, and change is seen as weakness unless it is only to decive the enemy (ie the public).

Remember, to Howells, three folk singers in a pub is his idea of hell. His words, not mine.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM

His idea of a crowd pleasing joke. I doubt very much if this is an issue any politician is seriously interested in to the extent of courting unpopularity.

I think there is a built-in belief that all aspects of human life ought to be regulated, and that any activity that isn't built around moneymaking is to be regarded with suspicion - and of course they hate doing anything that involves admitting they've got it wrong.

But the real worry has been apathy - and the fact that for a long time it was very hard to get anybody involved in folk music and other informal music-making, to take this seriously was especially worrying, because if we don't think it matters, who will?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:32 AM

We must not lose.
Regards, Dave

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:54 AM

10,000 reached at 08:56 UK time, 22 December. It seems to be slowing a little to me, although I would expect Sunday morning to be slow! Can IanC try another analysis? Will we exceed 11660, which is the largest e-petition to date?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:21 AM

We must not lose.
Regards, Dave

I fear in the sense that this Bill WILL be passed and WILL become law - we alrady have lost........... Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 10:04 AM

there is now over 10,000 names on it.