Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:54 AM

MrH. Learn to suck eggs yourself? Ialready explained that in the first letter. ;-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:47 AM

Mr H has a point, though, Ian. It might be worth asking Kim Howells a question about licencing rapper sword dancing in the online session. We could watch him complain about people taking sharpened swords into a pub and waving them about to rap music.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:26 AM

Oh dear The Fax online facility is down:

James, one of our volunteers, has got the builders in because his ceiling's fallen down.
Our fax-engine normally runs from his spare room.
You can see the problem :-)
You might want to write to your MP (yes with pen and paper and everything!) to ask them why Parliament doesn't provide something like this themselves, rather than relying on a group of volunteers to do it for them.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:27 AM

45,427...............

MPs names Emails etc are here...http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/alms.htm

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM

I was doing a bit of research on Friday and discovered that the original licensing legislation is based on a report by The Better Regulation Task Force. The complete report is HERE as a PDF file.

What's interesting is the attitude of the task force's report (as opposed to the bill) about regulation of small-scale events.

In particular, the following sections may be of interest.

3.1 Purpose of Regulation (para 2, bottom half of page 6)
says...
many of these objectives can also be and are being achieved by other means, e.g. ... public nuisance law, food and health and safety law.

3.2 Structure of the Regulatory Framework

Licensing of Community Premises(bottom of Page 9)
states ...
Licensing authorities must not apply conditions which are disproportionate and impractical ... Regard should be paid to the fact that community activities mat be run by volunteers with limitied time and resources. There is an opportunity here to consider whether licensing authorities need to be involved at all if suitable notification is given for an even to both police and local authority.

3.3 Licensing Conditions
Public Entertainment Licensing (bottom of page 14)
says...
Charges made for Public Entertainment Licenses are another area in which inconsistencies were drawn to our attention. The cost of licenses is not currently regulated and varies from one part of the country to another. There does not appear to be any paricular logic to the current system of charging with fees varying from less than £100 to tens of thousands of pounds for the same size premises. Again, there is urgent need for standardisation.


4. The Next Steps (bottom of page 22)
states...
We also consider that in some cases effective non-statutory solutions could completely remove the need for tighter legislative contols in the future

Annex B - Principles of Good Regulation
Targetting (lower half of page 25)
says...
The approach taken is aimed at the problem and not scatter-gun or universal
and...
Regulations are reviewed from time to time to test whether they are still necessary and effective. If not, they should be modified or eliminated.

Proportionality (top of pge 26)
says...
Alternatives to regulation are fully considered
and...
The impact on those affected by the licensing regulation is identified, establishing the right balance between risk and cost; no needless demands on those being regulated - think small first.
and...
Any enforcement action (i.e. inspection, sanctions etc.) is in proportion to the seriousness of the offence.

Hope this might be useful.

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM

Playing music of any sort at unscheduled events anywhere is a serious problem - how do you notify local authorities up and down the country - and what do they licence - eg playing pipes as I do at historical re-encatments, Stately Homes, etc. I don't unfortunately, own Rockingham Castle or Burton Agnes Hall, but if I did I wander the grounds and surrounds. Is this "premises"?. Its certainly a "place" under the Act. Is it entertainment - playing Leicestershire Smallpipes I could argue certainly not but the Bill says it is.

If the petition reached 100,000 would they listen? I fear not and the only public reaction will be if Jobsworth of the music police picks on the wrong organisation - eg the police band in a local bandstand or the Salvation Army at the corner of the Street.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,More Lies
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM

From Hamish Birtchell of MU
With Howells' allegation that the MU is leading objectors to the Licensing Bill in a 'pernicious lying campaign' ringing in everyone's ears, it is as well to bear in mind that on 17 July 2002 the minister gave an undertaking, during his broadcast interview with Mike Harding on BBC R2, that pub folk sessions would not be licensable 'if no money changes hands':

MH: Roger Gall has emailed us to say, and I quote, "When you introduce this new licensing system, if pubs don't have an entertainment licence, will sessions and singarounds be banned?"
KH: Yes, I suppose they would be. The landlord would need to get an entertainments licence to cover himself or herself .
MH: But this is not for gain, is it, you were talking about .
KH: Oh, I see, I am sorry, I'm sorry, I thought that you meant it would be professional musicians being paid.
MH: No, just sessions and singarounds, people just playing for their own fun.
KH: No, they certainly wouldn't and I'm very keen that we should make sure that that facility is there. There shouldn't be a problem. As long as money isn't changing hands, then there's no reason why they should have to have a licence...

Of course, now that the Bill has been published, it is clear that virtually all public performances are licensable, whether or not any money changes hands at all. In Colin Randall's Daily Telegraph piece (Sat 18 Jan), this is confirmed:

" Howells accepts that both the New Star singalongs, and the Dungworth carols, would be caught by the new legislation. As regular events, both sessions would have to be licensed."

The New Star, a pub in Weymouth, recently lost its regular informal folk session because the council enforced existing PEL legislation (the illegal session had been ignored for five years previously). As many of you already know, the British Institute of Innkeepers publishes guidance warning that 'encouraging community-style singing' is licensable. If the Licensing Bill is enacted without amendment, this guidance would continue to apply.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM

46,022......................

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:02 PM

I put Hamish's point from the post above (GUEST, More Lies) as one of the questions in the Kim Howells Guardian debate. Oddly enough, he didn't get round to answering it.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM

46,571

I added a link to the petition on an international discussion list on singing, noting that it was for those in England and Wales. I hope it helped.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM

Over 500 signatures added in about 10 hours. Great.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:34 AM

Thank you Alice, we will help you save Montana in return one day.

47,129......................

Please circulate to following

Billy Bragg is speaking on the subject tonight on the Sky News Channel at 8 pm.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 09:41 AM

It looks like the decline of the previous 2 weeks has been pretty thoroughly reversed. the 24 hour figure from Monday to Tuesday lunchtime increased by over 200 and is the highest number of signatures since Wednesday 8th January. 50,00 signatures are now essentially guaranteed

Even if the decline resumed tomorrow at its previous rate, we would be heading for approximately 58,000 signatures so I'd suggest that 60,000 is a perfectly reasonable expectation.

The number currently stands at 47,370.

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

47,621

If you go to the signature page, wait a minute or less and hit "reload" you can watch the numbers increase. They are adding really quickly now.

Click here

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM

* BAD NEWS *

The number have just gone completely zonk. It seems to be down to 29,809 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll try and contact the administrators.

:-(

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,bagpuss
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM

I think they are making the numbers up - back up to over 36000 now...

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

Looks like they have sorted the jinx - back up to 47,673 now

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM

its gone back right again: 47675 Total Signatures!!

Hip, Hip,.....

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

Hooray!


47,907...............

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

If you look at the home page to www.PetitionOnline.com, you see that the the PEL petition has moved to the top of the most active. It has been in the top ten, but the signatures are being added quickly and the tally page is going a little bonkers.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:40 PM

someone told me this am that only the online signatures would be counted but not the hardcopy ones. what's true?

i'll be sending all mine to graham dixon- so does he have to put them all online?

ps- i've got 400+ up to now hardcopy [to be sent in by 15th March]

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM

Just checked and it's 48331 Total Signatures right now - so at this rate should be over the 50,000 by the time of the "Silent Demo" planned for Monday 27th.

I still think that a separate petition specifically for people outside the UK would make a lot of sense, directly addressing the tourism issue. (Sort of "We won't be going to England to spend our tourist dollars until you stop doing this to the music")

But I think worrying about overseas signatures devaluing the petition isn't worth worrying about. It's not like Mickey Mouse signatures. If anything overseas signatories add more weight to the petition - but they'd add more weight to the campaign in a separate petition. These apparatchiks are more worried about losing tourists than they are about upsetting voters. Tourists have somewhere else to go, voters, they tend to assume, haven't.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:57 PM

And that 48331 Total Signatures is just online ones - it doesn't include the people in folk clubs and pubs and so forth who have signed the hard copy.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM

I can see no reason why "overseas" votes won't be counted - the e-petition is about people believing a situation to be unfair, and that it will affect their lives in some way - it is not an official vote where one would have to be on the electoral roll.... likewise children's votes should also be taken into consideration.

The only shame as far I as can see are those who have left "Silly" comments on the petition........

Let's hope we can raise a few more on the 31st at Fleetwood!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:45 AM

I get the impression that others of you can see the names of the signatories. Is that so, 'cos I can't -- just the numbers, and if I click on any of the numbers I just get the numbers page again. Am I doing something wrong?

BJ

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM

Bullfrog, try http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar & u should see numbers & names!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

ps- you have to clik on the numbers to see the names!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM

Nope, still just numbers, if I click on the numbers I just get the numbers page again! Could it be a browser thing? I'm using Internet Explorer.

BJ

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:07 AM

after you clik the numbers, you do get what appears to be the same page again, but scroll down a bit & you should see the names.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:08 AM

You click on "Sign" under the petition, and that comes up with the options: View Current Signatures   - Sign the Petition. Click on the former and up comes the numbers. Ay least that;s how it wortks with me on Internet Explorer.

And have a look at this "exemptions" thread, where I've just posted a suggestion for something that could sort it out and get Kim Howells out of the emvbarassing corner into whiuch he has painted himself.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

49,167

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM

50,003 signatures!!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:38 PM

Just over a month ago we were excited when it reached 1,000!

This reflects great effort from everyone and great credit on everyone, except our Government who are still not listening.

See Government v MU and lawyers

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:43 PM

50012 Total Signatures online + another 30 hardcopy from Conwy/North Wales mini folk w/end!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:52 PM

Over the 50,000 now!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:49 AM

This link will take you to the MU's and the lawyers position and the DCMS reply/spin.



Please circulate this.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:28 AM

I know this is the petition line but .....

I'm not being despondent but what more can we do!

The Demo sadly is basically flawed now as Hans Blix (not sure on spelling)is reporting back to the UN that day and George Bush will be pushing for us to support him in a war bid! The international posturing has already begun.

SO - Who is going to be interested in a group of (as the public know us) tax fiddling musicians who play in pubs and wierdo folkies who are not part of the real world and include Morris Dancers? The whole of this is overshadowed by the middle east primarily the gulf situation, which do I agree is very important.

Subsequent to this Kim Howells can get away with almost defamatory comments about the MU and others of us, and seems quite happy to suggest that lawyers specialised in the field (who perhaps stand to make a lot of money out of the badly formatted bill) are misinterpreting it. I think it is good to have a controversial culture minister but I would feel happier if he understood what he was talking about, he does seem to be developing the knack of inserting large foot in to mouth on a regular basis.

The Magistrates are not happy about moving the control of liquor licencing to the LAs and see many problems arising. The Govt is not listening to them either - To busy in the middle east.

I 'hope and pray' for a good meet on 27th - I will be there if I can, but currently can't, after keeping the date free for weeks! So back to line two - Where can we go form here - how can we interest the public and MPs in a piece of badly drafted legislation which is far less headline grabbing than XX thousand troops from UK and America being sent out to the middle east with no socks!!!

BTW on a lighter note NO I don't hold with us putting a topless model on the front of the Sun saying I can't take my clothes off for you anymore - even though it might work :-)

I've been really boring and bad and put this on the demo thread too, I think we have got to start thinking hard or we will loose!

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 04:43 AM

True enough it's not too likely that Monday's demo will get much attention - fiddling while Baghdad burns. But it's a foundation for the next step.

And 50,000 online signature, though impressive enough, isn't going to make them turn and run - but again it's going to lead on to very much higher numbers of people signing at festivals all over the place, and becoming aware of the situation and angry about it,in a way that would have seemed impossible a few months ago.

The chances are that the Act is going to go ahead without the simple amendments that could turn not from a clamp down on music to what it was claimed to be, "an explosion of liberty". But that just means that playing all kinds of unlicensed music in public becomes recognised as a kind of civil disobedience, a way of protesting against the government, and there is going to be as need for a lot of that for the foreseeable future, given such things as the push to war, and the hammering students and other things as well.

In a way this could potentially put people's music back where it belongs, at the heart of things.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 AM

Please dont dispair quite yet.

From The Times leader 21 Jan 2003 - war or no war if this influential opinion can be expressed, people will have to listen. See The thread linked to above for the full thing and another Times article on the same subject.

Mr Howells argues that amplification can allow a single musician with an electric guitar to put on a rowdier show than a string quartet and so he is only acting equitably.

But his is the equity of the wet blanket. And an illogical wet blanket at that. For the Licensing Bill will not restrict the ability of pubs to show television, amplified by powerful speakers, which could produce a great deal more noise than any pair of balladeers.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

51,830
Wow, I'm amazed at how quickly now the signatures are being added.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:57 PM

The DCMS just gets better and better, doesn't it?
"If you ask if a venue has a licence and you are misled you haven't commited an offence"
So obviously if you're told no you don't play....but if you don't ask then will you be charged additionally with negligence? (Mind you, in my case either 'playing an instrument without due care and attention' or 'carrying an offensive instrument' could well be justified.)

Terry Redmond 01/22/03 11:17:31 PM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:00 PM

Yes, but according to you, YOU risk being charged of "going equipped" in posession of your particular voice...

Hey, if providing facilities (eg a piano) is going to be licensable, where does that leave people known to sing or dance? They carry the facilities with them...

It strikes me that the stark difference between the Scottish approach and the English/Welsh model is that in Scotland there is a presumption of permission to make music, unless told otherwise. In England and Wales the presumption will be that you must have a licence except in certain circumstances. Glass half full, glass half empty.

Molly Barrett
01/23/03 12:50:38 AM

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: clansfolk
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM

A phone call to our local Town hall and a chat to our very protective licensing officer revealed some interesting comments......

1) In Blackpool at present there are 200 pel licenses held for hotels pubs clubs Tower, church halls etc.....

2) They expect this to increase to 4,000 after the new proposals are excepted - ummmm sound like a lot of addition revenue - no wonder my MP is slow in signing EDM 331???

3) Morris Dancing is and will remain illegal without a licence both in pub carparks and on the street

4) However if you can class it as a sport or a competition (you could offer a 10p prize for the best dancer) - that would be OK

5) When asked if Football would be OK in the streets then? - replied - I didn't say that....   (other bylaws cover this)

6) Temporary Licenses are very dear (but no price could he quoted)

There was some more conversation - but only relevant to some local issues..

7) Parting Comment from licensing officer - I have my officers out there checking!

NB. I did say comments not Facts - like most government departments, MPs et al - they appear to change their minds all too often and interpret the law to their own ends.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM

Some numerology again.

There is again no sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day varying between about 1,400 and 2,000 (except at weekends, where the numbers are rather lower). This week, it has not been below 1,700 and it has increased for the past two days so that today the daily rate was around 2,000 (I measure lunchtime to lunchtime).

A week-to-week figure for each day (for example Monday to Monday, Tuesday to Tuesday etc.) gives a good idea of the average expectation if there is no decline but can't pick up likely declines. The figure varies between 10,000 and 13,500 per week since I have been keeping figures.

On the "worst case" assumption that the signatures declined linearly at 200 a day from now on, then we could expect 62,000 signatures by the end of the week after next or shortly thereafter. This would probably allow us to confidently predict a minimum of about 64,000 to 65,000 so long as there wasn't a sudden and rapid decline.

Since there is no sign of a decline at present, we can also predict that if there was no further decline in the signature rate over the next 2 weeks we would be looking at around 75,000. Whether it will eventually get to this level (or even how much further it might go) is basically speculation as it's not possible to make a final prediction until a decline is under way.

The number currently stands at 53,001.

:-)

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

SH*T

The whole thing is totally and uterly phenomenal!

The only people who seem remotely happy with the law are the LAs and the MPs (apart from teh EDM guys!

I'm still trying to figure out where to go next.

It all gets short Shrift - like overlooked on Toady in Patliament - All we get these days is the was to was and then the WAR.

I Might try Terry Wogan! - any port in a Storm - He released the Floral Dance one!!!

I hope he doesn't read this.

A

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:24 AM

Signed it!

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM

Has anyone tried getting the subject on Richard & Judy or the popular phone-in radio shows?

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:57 PM

This is an e-mail I sent to Lawyers/Performance Group. Speaking to non musicians they are taken aback about this. Universally they think the Government is insane.   We ought to get to a wider audience. I agree with suggestions about Richard and Judy and Co but I wrote to the Culture Section of the Times and got no where. I think the xxx will hit the fan only when the first fiddle player is prosecuted for fiddling without a licence.   The MU is considering withdrawing its 80 year old affiliation with labour! Would a message about 50,000 plus lost votes help? For the first time in my life I wish the Tories would come back to life and form a proper opposition. Things are getting that bad!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks you for e-mail. I was particularly interested in the bit about Licensing open air events. I work in a Magistrates' Court and know a bit about Licensing. I have had meetings with the local city council officer who has the responsibility for this passed to him, or will have.

My point to him is this - I play mediaeval type instruments at historical re-enactments up and down the country. Maybe the society I belong to will have to seek notice permissions but

1. if you are not a liquor licence holder you can only have 5.....per annum
2. with an audience of less than 500 people......
3. for 72 hours then a break.
4. for a fee of about £20
5. by notifying the appropriate local authority and police (you have to find them first)

The Licensing Officer says.....

How an earth can a local authority keep national records of this. If x applies in one authorities area for notice permission, in 10 days is the authority supposed to search the database of every other authority in the country to see if x has applied 5 times before (and remember these events can be all over the place). And suppose the Salvation Army gives notice and sends £20 that it intends to play Carols and raise funds in a pedestrian street (as they do). How big is the audience. How wide is the "premise" or place as the act defines it. Who counts. Or as the local authority says, who cares?   As we contemplate war in Iraq, Railways that don't work, failing hospitals etc, the Government "de regulates" like this? His comment - are they mad or am I?

I am seeing my local MP David Davies (Deputy Shadow Prime Minister) on this and other subjects on licensing music Saturday week. I have written to Tony Blair trying to get to him as he pretends he is a musician, but diverted to DCMS, written to Education Ministers ...say responsibility of DCMS, don't care about opportunities for music students, to a Local MP John Prescott, no reply, too busy worrying about wife's hair do etc.

Strange world.

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM

One almost feels sorry for the poor Licensing Officers - well almost.

53,625...............

Would you please have a look at the following thread? Some help for a current local situation will be useful for the wider issue and be most appreciated....Weymouth Folk Festival

Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:50 AM

Have read the Weymouth Situation. The so called de-regulation bill will make matters far worse. I have sought legal opinion on the position of buskers also. This is my view but will take this up further when had that advice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------On this subject I wonder if I have stumbled upon an issue that may cause even Howells some concern.

It is that of Buskers and the Act.

He says that whilst some buskers are unpleasant (presumably the music) others brighten up dark corners of our land.

How could they operate in his regime?   He acknowledges for the first time that regulation covers open air performances. Buskers play to the public for money in the open air. So they need a licence. But they cannot have a premise license because although premise means place (ie an apple means an orange!) they do not operate from one place. They could hardly have a licence for the whole of Birmingham for example.   So they need an event notice? But they can only have 5 each per annum, and how, if they play in a pedestrian street as most do, do they limit the "audience" to 500. How wide is their catchment area?   Howells cheerfully talks about choirs getting the local railway station to apply for an event licence (did I read this in Network Rails strategic plan?). But will an empty shop owner make such an application for a busker. Or will the owner of a pedestrian place apply (the local authority for example applying to itself?)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the act itself as drafted will criminalise buskers everywhere. Jails are going to become even fuller, if more pleasant places to be!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I live not far from York. York City has some of the best buskers in the land. Many are young music students supplementing their grant or reducing student loans by playing Bach in Stonegate - to the obvious delight of the thousands of tourist. They will start there careers I fear with criminal convictions if this bill goes through.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if you agree with my interpretation? I will put this to Howells directly but I think he regards me with contempt. Is this not the sort of issue the gutter press (operating in the same place as Buskers) would take up.   I would be happy to draft an article for them!!