Art Thieme, Historian

Subject: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:50 AM

So Art,

Your knowledge and rememberances are so vast, when does the book come out? Your perspective because of your time and place could be invaluable in keeping alive the names and music of some obscure but influential people. As well as helping to promote a music that could use a little help now and then.

I'd buy the first edition and hope for the Book-On-Tape as read by the author, with quotes from the real voices of the artists who are still able to be found.

Just a thought.

Don

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: MMario
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:53 AM

second the motion!

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:39 AM

Art, I am 100% in agreement with this. And I think it ought to be a collaboration with Sandy Paton, with contributions from Frank Hamilton. Can you imagine? I am serious as hell when I say this, as many of us have before. You may not be able to play like you used to, but this might be one of your greatest contributions to "passin' it on". Give it serious thought, my friend.

Mick

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: MMario
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:43 AM

I'd volunteer to transcribe from tape or minidisc!

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:53 AM

why not begin with cut and paste posts from the mudcat?

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:38 AM

Funny you should say that harpgirl. Art, I hope you don't mind my telling them this. I had asked Art for permission to collect his stuff off the Mudcat and put them in booklet form a couple of years ago. I didn't go public with it, but did ask a few others to let me know whenever they spotted a "good 'un" so I could include it.

I got bogged down in moving and in finishing up a different book of my own, but am now back to collecting as I find them. I haven't had time, lately, to search through old postings, but do have a running file of recent postings of Art's.

Of course, IMO, it would be even better if Art was up to dictating a book, directly, and like MMario I would love to help transcribe. I would just like to see the Treasures of Fine Art be preserved and shared and I know there is a LOT more in his noggin than has been posted here! Good call, Don, he certainly is an historian and we all do want to read/hear more!!

kat

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:56 AM

think we should have a booknaming contest full of puns -- for starters what could the thieme of such a book possibly be? Even history has a Thieme. Maybe the title should be "The Art of History's Thiemes"?

But regardless of the title, Art, this is the book that you must write!!


A

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 03:30 PM

This reminds me of a thread I started some time ago aiming to persuade Sandy Paton to do an autobiography. The idea of Art doing the same sounds good to me. I would just love a book by either or both of these gentlemen. Get to it guys. Burl

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 03:45 PM

Art, I definitely concur.

Almost twenty years ago, I was sitting in the break room at work when I ran into a fellow who knew me from my singing in the coffeehouses during the Sixties. We got to talking, playing "What ever happened to old what's-is-name?" He asked me if, in my perambulations, I had met any of the "biggies" like Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, etc., etc. As we conversed, we were joined by a girl just fresh out of high school and on her first job. She followed the conversation for awhile, realized we were talking about some "Golden Age" back in Ancient Times, and at one point, she asked, "Who is Joan Baez, anyway?" I suddenly realized that even though I was fairly well known in the Pacific Northwest (at least a couple decades back), if this kid didn't even know who Joan Baez was, then certainly my hold on fame was pretty darned tenuous. The whole concept of Immortality had suddenly become strangely ephemeral!

I also realized that even though there was a terrific amount of folk music activity in the Pacific Northwest in general and Seattle in particular during the Fifties (long before the Folk Scare began) and on into the Sixties and beyond, the rest of the country seemed to be unaware that the upper left-hand corner even existed. Case in point: on page 124 of Baby, Let Me Follow You Down, by Eric von Schmidt and Jim Rooney, (University of Massachusetts Press, Amherst, 1979, Second Edition), one finds Humbead's Revised Map of the World. The Folk Music World, that is. One finds Berkeley, Cambridge, New York City, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. With the aid of a magnifying glass and after much searching, one finds Chicago—as if it were located in somewhere in New York City. Seattle? Nope. Not there at all.

What was going on here during this whole era was much too good to be allowed pass into the oblivion of unrecorded history. I set about to write a history of the folk music scene in the Pacific Northwest. It was not long before I realized that even in this one area of the country, it was just too huge. I wasn't up to the job. I don't think anyone is. It would be like the classic story of the four blind men and the elephant. Reminiscences, or a "memoir" might be more like it. So, bit by bit and paragraph by paragraph, I started writing about people I knew and things I remembered. The more I wrote, the more I remembered. Soon, I discovered I had about 100,000 words—and I was only up to 1959!! That's when I got serious. It'll be awhile yet before it's finished, but it's coming together. I'm researching a lot of stuff that happened back then, learning a lot I wasn't aware of at the time, and in the process, I'm looking up and becoming reacquainted with a lot of old friends. And I'm having a ball! It's one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done, both a fantastic nostalgia trip, and a real learning experience. Bob Nelson has read most of what I've written so far and in addition to helping me with fact-checking, he's been enthusiastic and encouraging. I, in turn, am leaning on him to write things up the way he remembers it. We shared a lot of experiences, but we had different experiences also. He could fill in things I missed. I would like to see those who were there to be one of those people groping around the elephant. In the troubadour tradition, tell the story, even if it's in the form of writings rather than song. Write it up.

Art, I highly recommend it. Contrary to the silly map, Chicago was one of the major centers. But although I had heard of the Old Town School of Folk Music, met Bob Gibson on a couple of occasions, heard of people like Win Stracke and Frank Hamilton, I really know very little about what was going on in Chicago back then. I would really like to know. I would be highly interested in your personal experiences and observations as you moved through all of this, Chicago, Oregon, wherever your travels took you.

It's obvious from you postings that you write well. Don't feel obligated. Don't fell pressured to do something you don't want to do. But—if you have any inclination at all, then, by all means. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM

Maybe this biography/history could make up for your recent behavior on the PBS Folk Music thread...if you really want to be forgiven.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 05:43 PM

Good idea, Don if Art is game. How about calling it "Thieme Capsule". vl

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:07 PM

Well, as I understand it, there might be a little pronunciation problem with that title. But I'm dead certain that the book would have a very interesting theme. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:44 PM

Art,

It's a great idea. Any way I can help. let me know.

Frank

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:05 PM

Art ... I'd also like to throw in my encouragment for such an effort. I'll spare you the obvious puns ... you've probably had a lifetime of those. I actually do have a fond, if brief, aquaintance and memory with your beloved Chicago. It was the deep snow storm in January of 1967. I was sent to Chicago for three days field study, which consummed my days but not my nights. Somehow, walking through 14' snowdrifts, I wandered into a club in OLD TOWN. The memories of that evenings singing are vivid.

Only YOU can tell us the private stories, behind the stories. Those are the tales I want to hear.

CHEERS and Best Wishes ... Hauskaa Youlaa Paivaa. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Burke
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:11 PM

There are people with stories to tell who have difficulty writing. There are people who can write, but might not have the stories. Alex Haley 'wrote' the "Autobiography of Malcolm X."

Getting help to write your story down is not a terrible thing. I bet there are a few Mudcatters who could help with doing it.

Go for it & if you have writer's block, get assitance.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

Wellwe could call it the Ancient Art...or the Twisted Thieme...or the Arse for Art's Sake ... or Folk Variations on a Thieme...or Thieme for Five Strings.... there are a lot more possibilities but I think I should let you guys share the work, here!! :>)


A

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 11:38 PM

You all are pretty amazing. Thanks for the ideas. What can I tell you????? All I can say is that I have little or no self-motivation to do this at all. I only get fired up enough to set it down on paper here when someone, by chance, is really looking for something specific I might be able to shed some bit of light on. Until that happens, I don't see any value in stuff that pops into my head randomly. I see little reason to use what little energy I have these days to ruminate on an unremarkable life. Energy, both psychic and physical, is an elusive commodity for folks with MS. My posts that sound depressed and needy are the direct result of this fatigue factor. So I see right now that I'd best go back to reading A Tale Of Two Cities which I am three-quarters through.
That is a far, far better thing to do than that which I have ever done today.

Love,

Art

Art

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 11:41 PM

repeating myself is a bad sign too...

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 11:54 PM

Fair enough Art.

But what is common to some is remarkable to others.

Don

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:03 AM

That said, if any of you spot one of Art's postings that you'd really like to see included in some sort of book form, please send a link to me, or copy and paste the message, with the thread title, into a PM. That way we'd at least have Thieme's Pickin'(s).

Maybe unremarkable to you, Art, but not to those who know and love you. Understood, though, about the expending of energy.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:23 AM

Some title suggestions:

Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thieme

Thieme Waits For No One

O Brother, Where Art Thieme?

oh well, it's late...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:33 AM

You know, this might be the book someone else has to write. Not an autobiography but a biography. SOmeone is going to have to go out there and sit for hours with Art interviewing, looking at pictures, researching the people he knows and knew, etc. If Art won't write it who will?

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:23 AM

Art, my friend, I know exactly where you are. I feel the same way, albeit for different reasons. I've had the second book in the works for years and just cant seem to finish it. Motivation is step one.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:32 AM

How about "A Brief History of Thieme"?

Art, is the energy factor too great to speak into a tape recorder? I'm a librarian; personally and professionally I hate to see memories lost. And having grown up and been educated "down state" I'm sort of familiar with Chicago Folk.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

Anyone notice that Art had to jump to the back of the book he was 3/4 through to find that quote? I hate it when that happens.

I think Rapire wins the contest with A Brief History of Thieme -- it has a certyain ring, and it's already been a best seller once!!


A

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:56 AM

Except it's pronounced Theem, as I've heard it. Art, is that right?

Folks, I don't think Art has the energy to sit and talk for hours to someone in person or into a tape recorder. I may be wrong, but that's the feeling I've gotten before when we all urged him to do this.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:43 PM

How about "Thieme's Like Old Times"?
SINS slinking back to her corner.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:47 PM

pronounced like theem? so I take it the song parsely sage rosemary and thieme was not about him?






*hides head in shame*

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:17 PM

Hi Art,

Was that pronounced "Teemee" like the painter in New England?

What about an interview format like what Studs does where someone asks you question and you collate the answers?

Frank

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 08:26 PM

So, how about "The Thieme Song"?

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:02 PM

In Germany it's pronounced "Tee-muh". Wolfgang verified it in another thread.

Again, thanks for the ideas.
(I'm almost done with the book.)

Like Woody, I'd never read tat book; just saw the film. Those final lines are indelably burned into my being and the only voice for them are the great Ronald Coleman. ------- But the book is much better. The character of Sidney Carton hints all through it what the end will be.

Frank, as we speak I'm listening to the recording of your concert at Navy Pier (Chi.) in '61. It's just great. Right now you are playing a solo version of "MEADOWLANDS" and mentioning the Folkways LP you and Pete Seeger "just finished" together---Nonesuch was the name of it. WHOOPS, you just finished, turned from the mike fast, and almost kicked a hole in your 12-string---but didn't. That duet LP was ragged but right-----but you doing Meadowlands solo here was simply the best---------as was the harmonica blues you did. Somehow, taping off the PA system made echos and lonesome train whistle overtone sounds that were unparalleled. It was just short of overblowing. I mean, you could SEE that train-----"I can sit right here and feel a million miles away..."   Sure am glad I've got that.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:30 AM

Suggested title: "Art Thieme - The Unauthorised Autobiography"

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:56 AM

LOL, JEri!! Subtle!! Kinda like the guy who made himself an offer he couldn't understand!

A

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:01 PM

Thank you Art for the kind words. Those were fun times.

I play your CD and enjoy it very much. And I am grateful for the CD you made for me of Bill Chipman, one of my favorite folk singers.

There was a lot going on in Chicago at that time. I remember having a folk trio at the Fickle Pickle. Bob Gibson used to come in to see us. One night, a new black comedian did a set. He was playing at Robert's Show Lounge. His name was Dick Gregory.

The Gate of Horn was quite a place. Lord Buckley, Lennie Bruce (who officially closed the club),Ti Jean Carignan,(in my book just about the world's greatest fiddler),The Clancys and Tommy Makem spearheading an Irish revival (circa 1958) and up the street on Wells was the galvanizing Second City. One night, I was accompanying Barbara Dane or was it Brother John Sellers and I did a silly little double take panto thing. At the close of the set I was introduced to noneother than Marcel Marceux who complimented me on my mime. That blew me away!

Do you remember the concert where Big Bill Broonzy and Mildred Falls accompanied Mahalia Jackson with the Weavers at the "Rainbow Room" of the Old Town School on North Avenue? They had just finished an abortive TV show sponsored by Chicago Title and Trust Companyh and they came over to the School afterward to "let off steam".

I remember breaking whiskey bottles in the cavernous backstage of the Gate of Horn with Arvella Grey so's he could get a good slide for his guitar.

Then there's the mention of Bernie Kraus being abducted from the stage of the Gate of Horn by his autocratic father's henchmen.

Someone ought to do a retrospective of the Gate of Horn. So much happened there.

Memories......memories.....

Have great holidays!

Frank

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:09 PM

Frank! You need to write a book, yourself!! It's nice to see you here, again. I've missed reading your stories, too!

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:41 PM

Yes, Frank! I'm with kat on that one, too.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:00 PM

Thanks Kat and Don. I'm entertaining the idea. Got a tape recorder on my bedside table.

My buddy Erik Darling is working on one.

Also, Jo Mapes who now lives in Chicago.

Ron Cohen has just come out with Rainbow Quest which is U of Indiana press which has a lot of useful info about the folk revival.

Bob Reissman is working on the life of Big Bill Broonzy which promises to be great.

Also, my friend folklorist Ed Cray is finishing up his bio of Woody Guthrie.   Ed really knows his stuff and it should be terrific.

I wish that Bess Lomax Hawes would do one. She knows as much as her brother Alan about American Folk Music.   

What about Sandy Paton? Don't leave him out either!

Thanks so much for your encouragement.

Frank

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:37 PM

Art- Seriously, this sounds like a Must for you to do. To get into the title contest, here's mine: Great Thieme- But Is It Art?         
Love to all,    Jean

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Neighmond
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:47 PM

First, Art, If i sounded short the last time I responded to you, I wasn't trying to.


Like I tell my customers who bring a clock or watch to be repaired:

"Now it can be done. Ten years from now it will be more difficult but perhaps I can do it. As for the future beyond, it's anybody's guess.

Perhaps we ought to do it while I know I can."

Time and again I kick myself in my ass because I ignored My Grandad when he was alive. Now he's gone and I would cheerefully pawn my watch and ring to have him on tape telling me all the old stories he knew about all the characters he ran across.

FWIW

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: harpgirl
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:02 PM

...I want to write this book! Seriously!

Jean Carignan is my favorite fiddler after John Hartford. I don't remember anyone mentioning him at mudcat, Frank.

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:48 PM

Harp,
Jean Carignan was at the first or second (or third?) U. of Chicago Folk Feast---'61--'62 or '63. (Alan Mills too) "Le Reel Du Pindu"---just unbelievable fiddling. I can see him sittin on a chair and doing the foot tapping that I've heard was was part of Quebec fiddling. I have some nice slides I took of him back then. In one slide he's playing a fiddle with a horn coming out of it---sort of a Dobro resophonic fiddle thing.

Frank,
I missed that night with Broonzy. Wish I'd been there.

If you see Jo, give her my best. Had a crush on her for years. Couldn't make headway 'cause my last name wasn't Brown. ;-) **smile**

I sang at a strange little folk club/bar Ron Cohen was running called Miller Station in Miller, Indiana near Gary. He had big plans then for chronicling aspects of the revival and I recall doubting it'd ever happen. Nice to hear I was wrong.

I think Sandy is almost as bad as I am when it comes to not seeing the value in putting down what little we, personally, went through. It was all about the music for me----finding it and making it-----passing it on. That's what I'm still working at-----finding new ways to get songs I cared about out there !! That was Folk Legacy's mission too I've always felt. And it was an honor to have them ask me to record. I felt then it was the perfect place for me to be. It was like going home !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Art Thieme, Historian
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:42 PM

Art:

I think your collection of tapes and pictures and memories should all be immortalized on CDs.

A